this is bbc world news. our top story: about 400 american passengers have been taken off a quarantined cruise ship docked in japan, after a major outbreak of the new coronavirus. 355 people on the ship have now tested positive for covid—19. most americans have departed for the us on two government—chartered aircraft. but around a0 of them who have contracted the virus will remain injapan. in china, the numbers of new cases and deaths in hubei province, the centre of the outbreak, has risen compared to the previous day. 60 million residents have been ordered to stay indoors to help prevent the virus spreading. and trending on bbc.com: sir eltonjohn has been forced to cut short a concert in new zealand afterfalling ill with a form of pneumonia. he lost his voice mid—way through his set at auckland's mount smart stadium on sunday. that's all. stay with bbc world news.

i'll be back in half an hour with karishma for more newsday but now on bbc news, it's hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i am stephen sackur. there are international laws and norm designed to prohibit states from bumping off their enemies, internal or external. but look around the world and it is clear those laws are being violated, often with impunity. my guest today is agnes callamard, a renowned human night —— human rights investigator who serves as the un special rapporteur on extrajudicial killing. given the sale of the problem —— scale of the problem, have her investigations become an exercise in

futility? agnes callamard, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. let me start with this grand title of yours. un special rapporteur on extrajudicial killing. based in new york city was a bit all sounds rather grand but isn't the truth that you have pitifully few resources? well, i do have very few resources but that doesn't stop me from being implementing my mandate. and doing so, keeping in mind the victims, keeping in mind the international community which is not to

investigate everything but which is to bring to the attention of decision—makers and policymakers killing which i believe reach a level of seriousness and impunity which demands that urgent attention and urgent action. there are ways of implementing a mandate which makes it possible and hopefully not an exercise in futility, as you highlighted in the introduction. and i may say, it cannot be an exercise in futility whenever i bring to the attention of the international community killing that they were not aware of, killings that victims and theirfamilies have aware of, killings that victims and their families have reported aware of, killings that victims and theirfamilies have reported to me, for them, for me, whenever i speak up for them, for me, whenever i speak up about the killing, i can assure you it is not an exercise in futility because speaking up, reporting, truth telling is already pa rt

reporting, truth telling is already part of providing a sense of redress and justice. i do part of providing a sense of redress andjustice. i do understand the importance of truth telling so i do appreciate that but you just said to me that you choose which extrajudicial arbitrary killings you are going to investigate and i am just wondering on what races you make that choice. —— what basis. this is why an international expert like me are being recruited. we are given the mandate to investigate and report to the international community on the basis of what we believe we think, based on our expertise and professionalism, must be brought to the international attention. indeed, from the very start, we are given the authority to determine what should be brought to the attention of the international

community. i may say that we are not the only actors bringing issues to the only actors bringing issues to the international community's attention. here is the question in my mind, once you choose a case, you have to investigated as best you can and gather evidence, forensically research it. there are clearly many regimes around the world, many places around the world, whether regimes are so repressive that there is no possibility for you to get their cooperation or do any sort of forensic research. so i am guessing that you just, you have to ignore so many places where arbitrary killings are taking place because you simply cannot operate in those places. are taking place because you simply cannot operate in those placeslj know, no, this is not the case. the first thing i should highlight is that my mandate is predicated on international law. so while i have the authority to determine how i am going to implement it, which cases i am going to bring to the attention

of the international community, i do that on the basis of a legal framework which is very clear. the right to know is foundational, it is the supreme right within international human rights law and the arbitrary deprivation of lice that metlife must be it is very narrowly defined. i think it is important to bring that to the attention of your listeners. the second issue is, of course there are many countries, many situations, indeed, where i cannot physically be there but that does not mean that i do not have access to the information that is required for me to make an informed decision. and in many cases, what i will bring to the international community's attention are serious allegations which reach toa are serious allegations which reach to a level of where i have

sufficient evidence for me to bring it to international attention. let us it to international attention. let us get to specific cases. you have been doing thejob us get to specific cases. you have been doing the job since 2016. m just wondering, we'll get to specifics, i have you spent so much time on, for example the case of the murdered saudi journalist jamal khashoggi? first of all, i am focused on the killing ofjamal khashoggi for a value —— for a variety of reasons. one is that journalists, media workers and human rights defenders are at the forefront of reporting on international human rights issues and they are on the frontline. they are on the and are targeted. through and implementing case such as jamal khashoggi's killing, ifelt that and implementing case such as jamal

khashoggi's killing, i felt that i could bring a number of other issues andi could bring a number of other issues and i could indeed impact to some of the dynamics that make the investigation into those killings so important was to corruption, abuse of power, disinformation, propaganda, complicity, nationally and internationally. all of those dynamics are working out in the context of the killing of a journalist and you know that for jamal khashoggi, yes, you know that, so... . jamal khashoggi, yes, you know that, so....as jamal khashoggi, yes, you know that, so... . asa jamal khashoggi, yes, you know that, so... . as a journalist and a man who has interviewed jamal khashoggi in the past, i understand. you i know had unprecedented access to turkish intelligence materials. i know you spoke at length to jamal khashoggi's fiance. you did an awful lot of work, a lot of research into this case. you came out with an explosive conclusion, i am going to quote," to be clear, this was a

killing by the state". what makes you so killing by the state". what makes you so sure killing by the state". what makes you so sure of that? 0k. the first ground for that conclusion is international law. they are very clear guidelines as to when and how you can attribute an act to the state. when you compare those guidelines and criteria which are for instance who are the individuals involved, did they get resources to commit the act, the crime, from the state. where there —— were there orders given. how was it planned, how was it organised. all of those factors i looked into with great attention. and all of those fact is pointed to the centrality of the state of saudi arabia. that was

further demonstrated what happened after the killing which is saudi arabia centred team of 18 people to so—called investigate the crime and what they did was to clean the crime scene. that, too, is demonstrating the action of saudi arabia in terms of its responsibility for their killing and the lack of investigation into the killing of jamal khashoggi. right, but as you know, last december, a trial was completed inside saudi arabia. 11 men were on trial and i believe five of them were ultimately sentenced to death for their individual roles in the killing of mr khashoggi. and of course the picture painted by the judge and the saudi authorities after the trial was that this was a rogue operation, it had gone wrong, there was an attempt to apprehend mr

khashoggi but there wasn't an attempt to kill him until, it seems, those individuals in that room in the consulate, acting without the orders of the state, ended up murdering him. you seem so absolutely sure that that isn't the case. i just absolutely sure that that isn't the case. ijust wonder how absolutely sure that that isn't the case. i just wonder how you absolutely sure that that isn't the case. ijust wonder how you can be so sure. case. ijust wonder how you can be so sure. you are not a detective and you don't have access to all of the files... i have had access to sufficient file that can make a very informed conclusion regarding the responsibility of the state. those 15 individuals who carried out the, they are all working for the state and working as security operatives for the state. they travelled with state resources. many of them travelled on a privatejet. two state resources. many of them travelled on a private jet. two of them had diplomatic passport. the private jet and diplomatic clea ra nce, private jet and diplomatic clearance, a team that came afterwards to clean up the crime scene, was also a team mandated by

the state. the prosecutor himself, asi the state. the prosecutor himself, as i mentioned, to highest level individuals which were not present in turkey but that participated to organising the killing indeed inciting the team to so—called bring back mr khashoggi. there is absolutely no doubt under international human rights law that the response of unity of the state of saudi arabia is involved. it is involved in the killing, it is involved in the killing, it is involved in the lack of effective investigation, it is involved in the lack of an effective prosecution and it is indeed involved in thejustice that we saw in justice where the hitmen were condemned but those that masterminded the killing, anyone with a little bit more authority within the state of saudi arabia,

those were found to be not guilty. if this is not a mockery ofjustice, i don't know what is. are so you think mohammed bin salman, all of the legal responsibilities must be put at their door? well, what i am saying is that certainly when it comes to certain people, there is sufficient evidence pointing to his liability for the killing. there is absolutely no doubt and the prosecutor of saudi arabia himself has recognised it. when it comes to the crown prince, i did not reach, in my report, a definite conclusion. what i did say is that he is responsible and the nature of his responsibilities must be further investigated. i do not know whether he ordered the crime. something that

the caa suggested he did. i do not know whether his responsibility resides in inciting the crime or in creating the conditions that made the crime possible or in turning a blind eye when he knew or should have known that a crime was being committed. all of the scenarios may apply to the crown prince. 0ne committed. all of the scenarios may apply to the crown prince. one of them surely applied to him. it was not in my mandate and indeed i did not in my mandate and indeed i did not have sufficient evidence to conclude one way or the other. all i can say is he is responsible for one of those scenarios. as you say, your mandate has limits. but not very long ago, you made it clear that you wa nt to long ago, you made it clear that you want to see the international community take more action to hold eve ryo ne community take more action to hold everyone in the saudi government all the way to the top to mohammed bill —— moment in salman. in my opinion, it meets the threshold of

seriousness required international jurisdiction, you said. and you called upon the un secretary general to ta ke called upon the un secretary general to take action. absolutely nothing, as far as to take action. absolutely nothing, as farasi to take action. absolutely nothing, as far as i am aware, has happened since you made that call which brings us back to where we started, the degree to which genuinely you lack the backing of the un machinery to make yourjob anything more than frankly symbolism. first of all, let me just explain a little bit by the killing was that serious. of course, it was emblematic of many killings of journalists for which there is one person's impunity. the killing involved and demanded the violations of many provisions under international low, the vienna convention on consular relations, the prohibition of violation of life

and forced disappearance and indeed the un charter of the use of force bya the un charter of the use of force by a state on the territory of another state. for all those reasons, i believed that the killing of mr shabby race to the level to be considered as an international crime. donald trump completely ignored your voice and made a point of saying the crown prince remains a very good ally and the partnership with the united states will continue unabated so people are not listening to you. i do not agree with that. i do not agree that the state of the world is as bleak as i presented. —— jamal khashoggi. indeed donald trump is protecting crown prince mohammed bin salman and saudi arabia. but we

demand accountability on the part of crown prince mohammed bin salman and saudi arabia. we did very clear that, yes, the un secretary general has not that upon my recommendations and neither has the white house but and neither has the white house but a range of other have and we need to give them credit. they are acting, resisting and taking action. give them credit. they are acting, resisting and taking actionm give them credit. they are acting, resisting and taking action. it is clear that your work on this continuous. let's move on to the case of qasem soleimani, a commander targeted in us drone strikes, many followed an assassination. you said that, as far as you can see, did not measure up that, as far as you can see, did not measure up to any illegal act under international law, in direct opposition to the position taken by donald trump's white house and administration. you have to be careful with your political capital and the way you spend it. do you

think it was wise for you to get involved in that? yes, absolutely. i think the targeted killing of a general qasem soleimani has breached many international norms that are at the heart of the un system, that are at the heart of the un charter. the un charter was predicated on the notion that we should do all we can to prevent conflict, armed conflict and that the use of force should be very much down to very few scenarios. the targeted killing of qasem soleimani completely swept away the standard related to extraterritorial use of force. it targeted the state officials while

in the past it was only nonstate actors that had been targeted... hang on, this is important. your contention is that there was a fundamental difference between this targeted killing and, for example, the killing under the 0bama administration of the killing of the leader of al-qaeda or the killing of 0sama bin laden because many legal experts say that given the national security interests of america, had labelled qasem soleimani as a terrorists, there is little difference. i do not know who those expert are but i beg to disagree. there is substantive difference between targeting a non— individual behind terror attack and targeting the person in charge of a legitimate

state's armed forces... hang on, hang on... it does not matter that the us declared it a terrorist group... surely what matters is the evidence. the evidence is that general qasem soleimani was working with actors inside iraq who had in the recent past log mortars at the us compound in baghdad, had killed a us compound in baghdad, had killed a us contractor and had plans for more military operation. how much more evidence you need that this man represented afraid. under international law and for the reasons i have pointed out to you, which is with need to preserve peace and security to the largest extent possible. under international law, a state can act to prevent an already

existing attack. there is no evidence that there was an existing attack. the thinking under the us administration doctrine has evolved to suggest that estate can intervene to suggest that estate can intervene to pre—empt an imminent attack. thereto, the white house have provided no evidence of an imminent attack. in the letters to the security council, they did not provide evidence of any forthcoming attacks but highlighted previous attacks but highlighted previous attacks and on top of that they did not target the operational acid which could have been identified behind any kind of attack. —— acid. they targeted an individual, a decisionmaker and it is basically allowing any government target a minister of defence or a minister of army just because of

minister of defence or a minister of armyjust because of what has happened in the past or what may happened in the past or what may happen in the future. i am not defending and i am not suggesting that general qasem soleimani was not a human rights violator. there is plenty of evidence that he was an there is plenty of evidence that many other people are and indeed some of them are heads of state. what are we going to do is make go after them with drives, targeting them, striking them ? after them with drives, targeting them, striking them? this is a recipe for disaster. you have been in this business of human rights campaigning for some time and nobody questions your courage and bravery but you think things are getting worse and that more and more states around the world believe they can murder with impunity?” around the world believe they can murder with impunity? i think we are living in a world that is extremely unstable. the multipolar, bipolar system that we are trying to establish has created waves

throughout the world and there are regional conflicts as we see in the middle east and other parts of the world so this great instability, alongside with the increasing inequity and inequality that the economic model has brought to the world, are creating huge opportunities, in quotation marks, for violent to erupt and for people to die. it is not in my hands to solve those multiple, multiple sides of horrendous violence but it is my role, when i can, when i have that platform, to at least bring it to your attention, bring it to the attention of the international community. we have focused onjamal khashoggi and qasem soleimani and i am happy to do that. we were not able to focus on what is happening

in nigeria, which is a pressure cooker, where people are dying in their hundreds on a regular basis. similar scenarios happening in venezuela, we know about the political crisis but we do not know that thousands of the poorest venezuelans are being killed in the name of the war on crime, the african colombians are being killed by ca rter‘s african colombians are being killed by carter's and so on and so forth. this is what keeps me up at night and what is driving me and i wish to highlight the fact that we still have the possibility of acting, we do have norms and institutions. they may be in need of reform but we need to strengthen them. it is upon the secretary general‘s responsibility the security council responsibility to speak up. it is the

responsibility of our leaders to speak up. people are dying because of the silence, because of the complicity values. we need to defend them actively and i am calling upon you and others to do the same. them actively and i am calling upon you and others to do the samem them actively and i am calling upon you and others to do the same. it is a very important point to and on. agnes callamard, i thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you.

the very heavy rain that storm dennis brought us, over a month's worth across the hills of southern wales, well, that's left some very nasty flooding conditions. we still have four severe flood warnings in force along stretches of the river teme between ludlow, in shropshire, and eardiston, in worcestershire. it was only thanks to this temporary flood defences, put up by the environment agency, that these properties in bewdley stayed away from the floodwaters. the river severn just about being held back. and talking of flood warnings, we have over 300 flood warnings still in force across the uk. and for some communities, the flooding will get worse before it gets better, as all of those flood waters slowly work down the river catchments. and talking of rain, well, we've got more of that to come over the next few hours, particularly so in scotland, as storm dennis passes quite close to the north. it is also going to become very windy for a time. mind you, it's not the only place that will see strong winds — around the irish sea coast and the coast of southern england, we could get gusts of 60 or 70 miles an hourfora time. so a blowy, blustery start to the day on monday. a day of sunshine and showers. the showers always most frequent across north—western areas. where they'll come along with hail and thunder. but it's a day where no—one

is immune from seeing an odd heavy downpour. temperatures 8—11, feeling colder than that, giving the strength of the wind. now, for the rest of the week, areas of low pressure will be pinged across the atlantic so we we'll get cool days, and then the weather turns a bit milder, then a bit cooler, then a bit milder. all the while, it's gonig to stay quite windy, and pretty unsettled as well. now, here's tuesday's weather forecast. we've got a trough, this line of rain, pushing eastwards across the country. that will mean that we'll have some pretty heavy downpours with the risk of thunder. and as that clears, colder air follows. so for scotland, northern ireland and northern england, it's going to start to get colder — temperatures around 6 or 7 degrees. and over the hills of scotland, we'll see some of the showers following turn to snow. now, the winds finally calm down for a time tuesday night, as this ridge of high pressure builds in. that is ahead of this next weather system that's coming through for wednesday. wednesday then, starting off on a quiet note, with bright or sunny spells, particularly across eastern areas. it then clouds over in the west, with more rain on the way. the rain getting into northern ireland, western parts of scotland and england, wales as well. temperatures, they should be

rising through the day and possibly rising through the night across western areas as the milder air continues to push in. the rest of the week, thursday further showers, turning cooler. friday, more outbreaks of rain and it will get windier with gales or even a severe gales. flooding is a major concern for the next day or two.

i'm karishma vaswani in singapore. the headlines: planes carrying hundreds of american passengers from the quarantined cruise ship diamond princess have taken off from tokyo and are heading back to the states. in china, streets in hubei province are deserted as 60 million residents are ordered to stay indoors. we'll be discussing if quarantine on this scale works? i'm nuala mcgovern in london. also on the programme: hundreds of flood alerts remain in place across the uk as the second major storm in a week batters britain. the hug of a killer to the son of his victim — we witness indonesia's radical approach to preventing terrorism.