polls have closed in two us states taking part in the super tuesday primaries. senator bernie sanders is projected to win vermont come his home state, whilejoe biden is projected to win virginia, a major victory for the former vice president. the who says that the mortality rate of those believed to have had the coronavirus appears to be just under three and a half percent. higher than the usual rate for flu. the us central bank has made an emergency interest rate cut over economic risks posed by the virus. and in the us, at least 25 people have been killed as tornadoes ripped through the city of nashville and gci’oss through the city of nashville and across the state of tennessee. buildings collapsed in tens of thousands of people are without power. it struck overnight while many were asleep and unable to take shelter.

we will be back in half an hourfrom oui’ we will be back in half an hourfrom our special coverage of super tuesday. now on bbc news, hardtalk. welcome to heart talk. the cape is the stronghold of south africa's main opposition party. the democratic alliance. and when ed elected its first black leader five yea rs elected its first black leader five years ago, many believed it was the start of a new era. my guest is his first interview to an international broadcasting since he stepped down as democratic alliance leader in october. what does his resignation tell us about race and politics in south africa today?

mmusi maimane in cape town, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much for having me. why did you step down as leader of the democratic alliance in october? well, i thought, at that point, that the da and i did not share a common vision. at first, i pursued the vision of a nonracial south africa, i believe the da needed to govern in more places, that the da needed to grow in the majority of south africans who are black, and there were a few people inside the da who thought it would be important for them to create an organisation that served a particular race, and i felt that at that time, there were divisions of which direction we should take and that was important for me not to serve in that kind of context. when you became leader in 2015, may, you said you wanted to take the race out of south african politics, so are you basically saying now that you failed to do that? no, i think it was important. when i took over as leader of the da

in 2015, i made it very clear, i said, "if you don't see that i'm black, you don't see me." i became very deliberate about saying to him actually, the da needed to be an organisation for all races. that, in fact, the only way to deal with race in south africa is when you can bring black people and white people to work together, and then... but you failed to do that. no. you did. let me just tell you what a well—known commentator, khaya dlanga, respected here in south africa said, "unfortunately, many people see mmusi maimane as something as a puppet, that there are powers behind the operation that are not black." so, basically, you arejust a symbol, and there were the white members of the da pulling the strings. fundamentally not true. i fought hard that we govern in johannesburg. and when you think about governing injohannesburg, that requires that actually black people, white people, people voted for the da, and they are working together. i produce the most diverse caucus of the democratic alliance of those different races. we fought hard for that. the only failure that i would look at, when you pursue non—racialism, it doesn't always get rewarded at the polls, and so when we lost

1.5% of the vote in the national elections in 2019, there were few people who started to attack this idea of non—racialism. it is what is the future of south africa, and if we start to regress away from that, south africa will become even further polarised. let me just explain why commentators like that do say that you were, sorry to put it crudely, a puppet on a string, you have your predecessor as leader of the democratic alliance, the da, she was in power from 2007—2015, she is a veteran south african politician, a former mayor of cape town here, premier of the western cape, you name it, and she's now been appointed as the chair of the federal council of the da. she really was calling the shots, wasn't she, in the da? absolutely not. when i took on the da, you will remember, that in my tenure, herman mashaba and i, in fact, had an open confrontation, where i said to her, some of the statements that she was making or not the things that she could say. she didn't resign though as premier for the western cape, when you said that to her. she said, for example,

that south africa's legacy had made a positive contribution, which you objected to. i objected strongly, and, actually, insisted that she didn't serve in the council in the federal executive, and she agreed to that, if you will understand it. but she didn't resign as premier of western cape. i didn't ask her to resign from that, i asked her to resign from all the structures of the da, that is the federal executive and the federal council. when she then got elected, it then became very clear that, of course, both of us in that context could not pursue the same vision, because i was pursuing a vision that is particularly different to hers. so i'm very comfortable, i think that that statement suggests... but that's the point i'm making, that she is now, an analyst, he says, the return of helen into one of the party's top three leadership posts was essentially confirmation that mmusi maimane‘s own colleagues within the federal council had lost faith in his leadership. completely wrong. she's in a position of power, you are out. completely not. it was a symbolic response to what

happened in the elections in 2019. it had nothing to do... and the projects that i pursued, you will remember, that in fact, we were looking at governments injohannesburg, we were looking at the complexities of that. i'm comfortable that it wasn't even a vote of no—confidence against my own leadership, it was in fact, the position that she plays is not one of leader, it's one of chairman of the party. and, frankly, at my own behest, had i stayed in the party, i would've continued to pursue the vision that i was. what i wasn't willing to do is to force south africa into this very debate that we are having, where people say, "well, because there are white people in the party, they must be the ones that are in charge and not a black south african in place." you said in your resignation speech in october that there has been, for several months, a consistent and co—ordinated attempt to undermine my leadership, and ensure that either this project failed or i failed. you said this extended to the smear campaign that was run on the front pages of an afrikaans weekly paper "in attempt to destroy my name and my integrity." completely.

what kind of smears are we talking about? it happens in a political party where sometimes, some of the institutions that are happening within the da actually didn't do the job they were supposed to do. so one of my great challenges that i had, a few people inside the da started to leak false information about me, about my own leadership, started to in fact, publicly, run these campaigns, because all they wanted it was a da that represents a particular race, a minority race. and because they knew themselves that had they gone to a da's congress, they wouldn't be able to master the numbers they started to attack me personally. what kind of things did they say that really upset you? suddenly, they started to raise questions about my own home, which were not true. they started to raise issues about the vehicle i was driving, which were not true, and so all of this, to sort of create a sense of doubt was the sort of lack of moral fortitude that those people demonstrate that ultimately led to a point where i felt that the environment within which we were working was toxic, it was not right. was toxic and not right.

was it basically racism towards you? i felt that some elements of it were, because there were some elements that sought to say, because these were a group of south africans who thought that, for them, it's important for the da to go backwards rather than go forwards, and they are willing to pay any price to do that. and so, i put it to you again, that, really, your four years of stewardship with the democratic alliance have failed, because a well—known writer here in south africa says "i have no doubt that now that mmusi maimane has gone, we will see an exodus of black leaders and members who will leave the democratic alliance party." that's not a failure of a project. but it will go back to being predominantly white again this. ultimately... it still is, to be fair. you may have increased the vote of black supporters, but it's still predominantly nonblack. the tenure i had as a da, to me, was the direction that south africa needs to move on and i fought hard for that. that's why we could govern in more

places, why we could move out of the western cape and to be a party that was central to south african politics. that to me, is a success of a project. now, when you look at the elections of 2019, there was also an exodus of a number of white south africans who went back to a fairly minority white party. now you never want to lose votes, but ultimately at the end of the day, when you focus on the future of an organisation, you've got to bring everybody together. so, for me at this point of time, it indicates there's hunger for a nonracial movement in south africa. just not the da. so ijust want to make it clear here that you, can i basically paraphrase what you have been saying, is you have left the democratic alliance and stood down as leader, because it was basically too white and there were strong and powerful elements within it that made your life too difficult as a black south african, is that essentially it? in that speech that i said when i resigned i do not believe that the da is the best vehicle suited to advance my vision.

because? because i fundamentally believe that there are some within the da that i believe it should be a minority front. and they were so powerful that you felt you had no choice but to step down? it wasn't a fight worth having. i mean, having said that, i want to be clear, that not everybody in the da was racist. there were a few number of people who wanted to debate with us this vision of non—racialism, they wanted to deny the history of south africa, they wanted us to not focus on addressing historical injustices, they equally so were not committed in truth to a project of building everybody together. and that's became a consistent point of friction all the way throughout my leadership tenure, and as a black south african, i could not in my own self, betray the fact that i felt it was important to build one south africa that you must address those injustices. it wasn't a comfortable position for you to be in, you brought up the situation, the election in may of 2019, and under you're stewardship, the party had lost votes

for the first time in its history. you lost five seats in the national assembly. you ceased to be the official opposition in south africa's biggest province, as you said to me, lost votes to the freedom fighters, the economic freedom fighters on the left, and also the freedom front plus afrikaans party. it didn't do well. no. firstly, let me clarify that when we went on to govern injohannesburg, the da had never seen growth to that level. frankly, there were more black south africans that were voting for the da than it's ever had. so, a loss of five seats, let's place it in context in a global situation, where populists have risen on either end, where elements of nationalism are starting to come on board, and people are in a climate of fear with economic conditions in south africa, such that people are losing theirjobs, there is fear. it was going to be natural that parties who sit in the centre, that includes the da and the anc, were going to suffer losses, so president ramaphosa lost more votes than i ever did under the anc

leadership, in fact, it was the biggest drop they had ever seen. precisely, you have should've benefited from that drop to do well. the benefit was we were fighting against elements of populism, racial divisions, and i think i'm actually, to have stood at the level that we did, some of the losses were only five seats, is actually, in my view, very important stake in the ground for the future of the da. i consider it, actually, the right foundation for the da to be able to go forward. after the election, you commissioned a commission because you wanted to explore why the da had performed so badly, and this is what the report found. it's worth quoting, it's a bit long, "the overwhelming view of those who made submissions or with whom we have discussions is that the party leader, you, mmusi maimane, while immensely talented, committed to the cause, hard—working, widely liked, can be indecisive inconsistent, and conflict averse. it's our carefully considered review that the most important factor in shaping the da circumstances is a failure of effective leadership." they put the blame at your door.

i argued strongly that i disagreed with that report. because you didn't like the result? no, the report had a diagnosis that was seeking problems. the diagnosis was this, they wanted to go back to the dp, if you like, to regress the organisation. a precursor of the democratic alliance, as it were. correct. just because you disagree with the direction does not make it an indecision, itjust means you disagree. they disagree but the fact that the rest of the report makes it quite clear — they didn't want us to govern in johannesburg in partnership with the coalition of south africans of different parties, they didn't want us, they wanted us to remain in the western cape, and because you disagree does not make it indecision, itjust means that it's not the decision you would've taken. so you don't thank you were basically out of your depth, as leader of the democratic alliance, this party that has been the official opposition in south africa since the 1960s. leadership is a hard job,

you will make mistakes, i'm not saying my record was perfect. it can't be. leaders make mistakes. but you learn from your mistakes and you build. i believe in the project i was working towards, and i certainly believe that the da was heading in the right direction, and it's indicated even more so since my departure that the da is out of government, the da is regressing backwards and more public representatives and other different sectors are starting to want to find other places. which to me is a tragedy, because ultimately, we want to have a south africa that works for all the people. if the da had failed to become the vehicle, it is important to set up another vehicle. you say that you now want to move on. correct. and you have set up this movement for one south africa, not a political party yet, and there are already those of you who are ahead of the game, julius malemma, for example, the economic freedom fighter, set up this party a few years ago, won 11% in the elections in may of 2019, they are already parties occupying the space

that you want to occupy. the eff is just another version of the anc. julius malema would vigorously reject that. he can reject that, but... look how they disrupted cyril ramaphosa's state of the nation address. on what basis? because all they wanted to argue was about personal issues of all party matters. it wasn't about the ideological direction of this country, south africans are starved for an alternative. if the eff is not an alternative, it's basically a socialist leftist organisation, which is fundamentally just a militant version of the anc. but he's tapping into a mood that is popular with many particularly young south africans, for example, the student protests about fees must fall in 2015, he... they are not eff orchestrated. no, they aren't, but he has captured the mood there, where as you tried in october of 2015 to go to the university in cape town to show your solidarity with the students, what happened,

there were boos and chants, you were told to leave. this was a bunch of people from one of the unions in the university. they were arguing a different case. i want to reiterate what the starvation in south africa is for a vision of a nonracial south africa, which the eff has not and the anc has long forgotten that view, it's a view that says there needs to be a social market system that allows an inclusive economy, it's a view that says there must be an accountable government, both the anc and the eff are facing serious allegations of corruption against them, which they must answer for. it requires a future—focused orientation. south africans are asking and calling out for a different alternative. the biggest party that grew in the elections in 2019 was south africans who didn't turn out to vote. 18 million did not turn out to vote. how are you going to appeal to them when we're not sure what your platform or your vision is? the platform is to fight in a movement that says, "we need to build south africans

who can coalesce together around the values i'm articulating, nonracial future, an inclusive economy, an accountable government, a future—focus, and ultimately to be able to say they must be just as for the things that happen in the past in this country." we build on those values and bring society into silent voices in this country. i believe that will create an audience that is able to disrupt the current institutional politics that we are seeing. easy to say, "i have this vision", but when you look at the nitty—gritty of policies, it is quite hard to implement this vision, so, for example, let's take one eye—catching policy of the anc, the black economic empowerment programme. this is all about trying to address the injustices economically of apartheid, and the idea is to encourage black economic empowerment through ownership, and you say that you are opposed to targets for black ownership, yet here you are saying, "i think there should be an inclusive economy for all black south africans. so make it clear, are you for black

economic empowerment are not? i'm for an inclusive economy. i'm for an economy that recognises that black south africans are left out, that the face of poverty is still black from a largely young, and therefore, but that doesn't nullify the fact that weight south africans have a role. bbbee has simply benefited the elite in this country, south africa's economic infrastructure actually puts 49% of citizens as the underclass, the poor, who are depending on welfare. so if we are going to address that, bbbeee have failed willfully to that. you must oppose that policy. so you are opposed to that programme? that's not being opposed to black inclusion into the economy. but you just said also that doesn't mean excluding the role of white south africans. they do play a role of the social injustices. they make up of 70% high net worth individuals. correct. it's blatantly obvious they are playing a key part in the economy.

and they must contribute to building inclusion. that's the point! and continue to be the beneficiaries of inequalities in the economy? let me propose a different model. should they continue to be beneficiaries of this inequality in the economy that 9% account for 70%... they must contribute to address the injustices of the past. they must continue to do that. and my proposal is this, let's take one industry, the insurance industry in this country. it's only got four big companies that still control the insurance company. yes, i agree, the majority of them are white, but isn't it about time that rather than simply saying let's talk about bbbee, we establish a jobs and justice fund that will ultimately find new entrants, with the majority of which are black, of course, to set up more insurance companies. all right, so another ill that you said affecting the anc, which, by and large, people except corruption. people accept corruption. look, he has only been in power for two years as president, sure,

he was vice president, but he himself has talked about the extensive looting by the state to the tune of about $38 billion under the presidency ofjacob zuma. you have to give him time to try to tackle that kind of corruption? how much time? he will never do it. he's only been in power for two years. frankly, he knows very clearly he will not arrest any members of his own party. we will be having exactly the same conversation five years to come. if you want to eradicate corruption, you have to eradicate the anc. he's appointed the zondo commission to look at the allegations of state capture. he has appointed a highly respected former minister of finance as minister of public enterprises, and also kind of anti—corruption tsar, so he's taken the right steps, you can just go and arrest people willy—nilly, the public prosecution says there will be tsar, so he's taken the right steps, you can'tjust go and arrest people willy—nilly, the public prosecution says there will be high—profile arrests. it's his colleagues who are sitting in parliament with him who key it's his colleagues who are sitting in parliament with him who were key benefactors of state capture.

he, himself, has allowed them to continue to function in parliament. this is a very crucial role that the president has. his hands are tied, as you well know, by the pro—zuma factions in the anc, supporters of cyril ramaphosa issued a statement recently this year saying, "elements engaged in the long term project of state capture regard the ramaphosa presidency is necessary before they are once more in power." a very powerful statement, he opposes the anc, so should the rest of south africa be an audience to anc‘s politics while people aren't doing theirjobs. you have to got to give him time to try to clean up south africa. i completely disagree. if you want to fight corruption, why don't you think about other mechanisms? today he can introduce some form of technology that would allow us to move away from corruption. he would have been today able to narrow down his cabinet so it's much more effective, but he's not doing any of those, because he is an anc president and will continue to drive an anc agenda.

all right, so where do we go from here, mmusi maimane? the people want to know are you going to set up new political party that's going to contest the elections in 202a? are you just going to content to have this movement? no. we believe the movement will eventually contest for elections, but here is the first... nationwide elections in 202a? will you stand in 2024 elections? the next challenge is we have to bring electoral reform, because, i introduce that because it's important that this movement is clear. we want to fight to change the way people are elected in this country. if you just keep a one—party state, you end up with state capture. we want to be able to stand in the elections with the view that these are directly elected people in the community. it's not a one—party state. the anc win the elections fair and square wear, you will not expect them to say we have won the election, but we don't want to be a one—party state, we are going stand down. it's1—party dominance and i'm simply saying... yes, because... lots of the parties cannot appeal to the black majority vote. at this point in time, the liberation movements all end up

with the same vision of capturing the state. it was in the anc‘s documents that focused on saying we will go out and capture the elements of the state. that's not my issue. another party briefly, finally, 48 political parties already in south africa, the opposition is splintered, you havejulius malema and the freedom fighters, as we said, so for example, would you go into alliance with the former mayor ofjohannesburg, herman, who also left the democratic alliance like you ? let's build a movement of south africans that will come together, let's bring a number of political entities, civil society to work together to be able to wrestle this big monolithic animal called the anc, let's agree on values, which are non—racialism, future focus, that we talk about issues of climate and technology, that ultimately we bring justice, we reform the electoral act so people are elected directly, the way that people are elected come elected directly, and when we do that, ultimately, it's notjust addition of another party, but building a movement of south africans that can bring change to this country. and that's going to happen.

for example, julius malema, who has said come and have a chat with me over whiskey, don't be discouraged, my big brother, you are a good human being, he said. if he is willing to build a state ofjustice in this country, jobs and focus on the future of this country, i will work with him, but i'm not going to work with people who want to advance any other view outside of that. so we are building this movement for south africans to go together. would he be the kingmaker and you the king? let's cross that bridge when we get to it. my focus now is building this movement of all south africans, and people are responding positively. the silent vote in this country is those that are not voting. the silent voice are the citizens who are excluded from this economy. this movement must be able to say, "let's work with those people, fight for an inclusive economy, build a nonracialfuture, and i believe that parties from different sectors will come together. if i was an anc strategist, i would start more parties. i want to bring people together so we build one future for south africa. mmusi maimane, thank you very much indeed for coming onto hardtalk. great to see you.

thank you. hello. we know, of course, it was a very wet winter. now the met office says it was the uk's third least frosty winter on record. we are going to start wednesday with the widespread frost. but there is more rain on the way, as these weather fronts head in, particularly to parts of england and wales. so even where you start with some sunshine, you will see some cloud increasing and the chance of rain pushing north. but lots of uncertainty about how

far north that rain might get. we may not see too much in northern ireland or northern england, much of scotland staying dry. that's how it looks temperature—wise, first thing, that widespread frost, but notice we aren't so cold towards southwest england. that's because here we are starting the day with cloud and outbreaks of rain. and this very gradually spreads further north across the rest of southern england, wales, into the midlands during the day. but it is a slow process and you may not see too much rain towards northern england and northern ireland. cloud will slowly increase, you may get a few showers starting to break out. showers too for western scotland, but for the rest of the east it is mainly dry. a bit of sunshine, as well. it will feel a bit cooler, the chance of seeing a bit of hill snow in estonia, perhaps the peak district, especially as this begins to pull away on wednesday night. and then, skies will clear, northern ireland, scotland, northern england in particular for a chance of frost again going into thursday morning. so for some of us, it will be a cold start on thursday, but the frost isn't as widespread as elsewhere, temperatures hold

up underneath cloud. and the potential on thursday for seeing some soaking rain into the channel islands, perhaps also southern counties of england will see strong winds, as well, although there's lots to play for in how far north any rain here will get on thursday. so watch this space. showers into northwest scotland, elsewhere at a fair amount of dry weather on thursday. and then into friday, we will bring along a week weather system across the uk, just pick out some thinker cloud here with the chance of seeing some patchy rain and perhaps some hill snow out of that amount. fairly quiet at the moment on friday. but unfortunately, that will not last because we have a stronger weather system, a deeper area of low pressure heading our way to the weekend. here it is, and that means the weekend's weather will get windier again. this weather front will take rain southwards on saturday. the further south you are, you may not see too much rain during daylight hours, but on sunday once this weather system begins to pull away, it is sunshine and blustery showers. that's your latest forecast.

hello and a very warm welcome to bbc news. i'm katty kay. i'm christian fraser here in washington. our main story... polls start to close in the biggest day yet in the race for the white house. democrats in 1a states choose who they want to run against donald trump in november's election. the frontrunner, 78—year—old senator bernie sanders, has senator bernie sanders, won the primary in his hor state has won the primary in his home state of vermont. but the former vice—president, joe biden is trying to catch up, having been given a boost by endorsements from previous rivals. having one virginia and north carolina, both substantial victories. and they'll be up against a number of other contenders