this week — we have more than 100,000 confirmed coronavirus deaths worldwide. we're heading towards two million infections. billions of people are trapped in physical lockdown with the imf warning that the impact on the world economy could be as bad as the great depression of the 1930s. a mere three months since covid—19 flickered into our field of vision, it has already brought human suffering on a scale that is impossible to measure. my guests today, on socially distanced screens... catherine pepinster, british commentator on religion and politics. and canadian—born american writer and broadcaster jeffrey kaufman. and here in the studio observing the two metre rule, the bbc‘s chief international correspondent lyse doucet.

catherine, because you write on religion, and it is easter weekend, i am a non—christian and i think a lot of the audience will be too and i wondered if you think the easter message of suffering and resurrection and redemption has something to resonate in those of us who are non—christians. as well as christians. i hope it does have resonance for people without christian faith because it is a study of suffering and coming out the other end of it. i was thinking about the time between the good friday and the crucifixion and then the resurrection and the apostles, the followers ofjesus, were in a state of distress and grief, despair, they did not

know what would come next but they did come out the other end with renewed hope. and i think we can think of that — that this will not last forever and that we will get through it. this time will pass and there will be another time to come. it is rather like the seasons, it is very appropriate for us in this part of the world in europe to have easter at this time because it follows the pattern of spring after winter and i think many people take comfort from that as well. the christian story is one about leadership, spiritual leadership but the current crisis is testing leaders of all types and organisations of all types whether political, religious or whatever. do you think anyone is measuring up and if so who? there are very distinct lines between success and failure

and uncertain outcome. if you look particularly in asia and south korea, taiwan and hong kong have done exemplary jobs. i would note that south korea have put all its emphasis into testing, something we are very much lacking here in the uk. looking elsewhere, germany testing hard, devoting huge amounts of academic resources to testing and getting ahead of this. canada which was the only non—asian country to suffer from sars in 2003 has a pandemic policy and a strong government. i think what you are seeing is sadly an epidemiological global study of how different responses have different outcomes and we will know for better and worse in a couple of years which ones succeed and which ones fail.

lyse, as the bbc chief international correspondent, you crisscross the world looking at different responses to situations, some people are drawing conclusions about which systems are working in the face of the current crisis, some in east asia saying a look at the confucian model, public spirited and emphasising solidarity and sacrifice. do you think it is too fast to jump to those conclusions? yes, especially when there is a warning from the who of when you go down coming out of this lockdown and the many countries is as dangerous as when you go into it. it is very early days and i think people talking about leadership, people are looking at the opinion polls, people like angela merkel are sticking to the science and straight—talking, she has 79% in her opinion polls and is in her fourth term. people are looking at citizens, the health systems, state

and leadership and the fact that china and south korea both responded in different ways, you did not see in some of the south asian countries the very strict lockdown that china resorted to, you did not see the authoritarian response of china in some of the other countries but strict ones and of course a country like taiwan, very close to china, not a member of the who, as soon it saw what was happening in china it went into pandemic mode, closed the borders, started increasing facemasks, brought out the highly trained scientists. the ones it had developed and promoted since sars in 2003. very strong messaging, testing, testing so it had a system in place already and what we are seeing now is that where you get to is a function of where you start and how soon you start and how well—prepared you were to be able to cope and how seriously you took the very first signs that this

was going to be something big injanuary. focusing on the uk, on friday we saw a very grim tally of deaths. nearly 1000. more even than spain or italy in any given 24—hour period. among the dead were doctors, nurses and others on the frontline, with many of their colleagues bitterly contesting the government's claims on personal protective equipment. and all as the prime minister, the very person responsible for leading the country through the crisis was instead fighting in intensive care. we're told borisjohnson is now on the mend. but has his government turned the corner yet? i think the response from the uk has been in many ways deeply problematic

and a lot of that has to do with the way we dealt with us this from the beginning. scientific advisors in march were still telling the government that the risk was moderate. we didn't start testing early enough and are not prepared for mass testing. germany have a very different approach so when we have got to now, we are not in a position to do what new zealand has attempted to do, to eliminate the virus — it is too late to do that here. we have moved from containment to slowing things down and everyone is so concerned that these high figures that we are getting show we are not even slowing things down. anecdotally i am hearing about a lot of people who become very seriously ill but they are not taken to hospital early and they get to hospital when their bodies

are exhausted and put on ventilators but it is too late to help them. i am wondering if we need to rethink that. the nhs is not at capacity, we have been so terrified it would be overwhelmed, we need to think again about how we are approaching it and we need to stop treating care homes as if they are hospices. the situation in care homes is clearly dire and these problems that we have will increase unless the government thinks hard about how it is approaching this and they will be in trouble even if they have got a large majority. they now will be facing a renewed labour opposition with the new leader keir starmer, that will make things tougher for them as the weeks go on and they have this great tension to deal with, as all countries do,

about trying to ensure the economy is not destroyed whilst also trying to ensure that as many people's lives are saved as possible and they are going to have to try and somehow take the country with them over this because the longer that the lockdown goes on i think the harder it is to placate people that this is the way to go as they see their livelihoods are being destroyed. this is a problem for governments everywhere. taking us to the united states. only a couple of weeks ago president trump was telling americans they'd be packing churches for easter. but instead many are spending easter under lockdown and the morgues are packed instead. trump says the us is through the worst. is it? i think really it is a function

of how you view trump. it is a such a polarised nation, if you are a trump fan you are a believer and if you are not you are horrified. sorry, we lost you for a moment, can you deliver the last sentence again. viewing trump depends on where you stand politically, if you are a fan you stand by him and if not you are horrified. he said we would have a churches open by easter which is clearly not happening. he is treating it as a re—election campaign at massive human cost. leaders outside the white house have taken control, obviously the mayor

in new york, one of the most outspoken but trump's lack of leadership is going to cost the us terriblyjust as boris johnson's slow leadership here has put us behind in the uk. it is potentially so hard to know what the consequence is but i think where trump is wrong is thinking his opponent isjoe biden now that bernie sanders has pulled out, his opponent in re—election is a virus and how he handles it and frankly how any leader handles it is going to determine so much including their own political future. it is interesting from president trump who was making light of it initially, who is now saying he is about to take the most difficult decision of his life and that is to decide when to ease the lockdown and he has said he will meet with the council of business leaders next week to try to think about that. another message from the ever—consistent top scientist dr fauci, who has become a bit of

a hero worldwide, when he is asked he always says let me repeat again i am repeating myself, when it comes to the difficult decision about the lockdown the virus will decide. that is the power of this virus. lyse, i am interested what you think about the war—fighting language we get from the trump administration and the uk government, the battle against the virus, we will beat it, do you think this this language is helpful in uniting citizens in a kind of existential struggle to reorder priorities and understand sacrifices? it is interesting this lexicon is used notjust by leaders, citizens use it, health workers use it. early on we heard of doctors and nurses on at the front line. when i walked by st mary's hospital, we are walking past a front line

which is usually in syria or afghanistan and i know the danger and is it dangerous to be close to this front line. in a time like this everyone can use whatever language it is they feel they need to convey the urgency of it. it is an urgent situation which requires action by everyone but it is getting to the point where all the language of war is being used, the battle, the soldiers, the front line but the terrible thing is you do see some things, field hospitals, soldiers who gained experience in putting up field hospitals quickly and at speed building the nightingale hospital in london and even more terribly it sends a shiver, are the mass graves. mass graves at this time, there is no dignity in death even

in our relatively developed societies. this is not a real, this is a very difficult situation but it is not a real military conflict, that is a different kind of situation and one where people ask when it will be over but people live with those wars for their entire lifetime, for generations. jeff and i have covered some wars together, it is different, they are both very dangerous and unnerving and create a lot of fear but they are different. going back to the united states and the uk and particularly the united states on inequality because another thing about the language at the moment as people talk about this virus being indiscriminate, the prime minister laid low, power and privilege no protection, but it does not kill indiscriminately and we have seen over the past week figures from different states in the us

making clear that it is killing african—america ns disproportionately and thus drawing attention to the social and economic inequalities that underpin life and death in the us. absolutely, and i think it is highlighting the inequality of this nation that always presents itself as one of the great developed nations but its health care has been a problem for an incredibly long time. there are many people who cannot afford to be sick, who cannot afford not to work and the problem in america is apparent in that it is affecting certain places of great poverty more than others. louisiana, a state i know, has a terrible problem

in new orleans, the rate of death as very high. of death is very high. one of the problems america has, although we think of it as having an incredibly advanced medical establishment with great doctors doing innovative things, actually health care there is very poor in terms of resources. i was reading only this morning that in the united states they only have 2.9 hospital beds for every 1000 people compared to germany that has 8.3. the united states only has 2.6 doctors per 1000 people compared to russia which has double that. you can see here how these basic necessities of health care are affecting the way in which america responds to this crisis.

do you think president trump is also fighting a sense that there needs to be a reckoning on these inequalities? i spent the last 40 years listening to western nations put down the concept of government being a necessary evil but less is better and we have watched passively as globalisation has taken hold around the world. now both are in question. we need government and the countries without good governance are suffering most, without a strong bureaucratic state are suffering the most and the global supply chain has been exposed to be a fraud, it does not meet the needs of a crisis. we cannot get ventilators and masks and other personal protective equipment to the nations that need it because many of them no longer supply it and the countries that do

are holding it back. so i think this is not about returning to normal as i think one piece of graffiti in hong kong said, we can't go back to normal, normal was the problem. let's pause discussion of the future for a couple of minutes and talk about news that is getting neglected. i want each of you to highlight a story that would be preoccupying us today if the coronavirus crisis wasn't sweeping the world. 0ne story i did some work on this week that might on this week that might have been the top story of the day was when saudi arabia, fighting for the last five years

in yemen announced a two—week ceasefire, unilateral ceasefire that could be extended which is an extraordinary turn in this conflict. yemen is sadly, we talk about before the coronavirus, before this pandemic it was regularly called and still is the world's worst humanitarian crisis, more than 100,000 dead. we do not know whether this ceasefire will hold, whether it will be reciprocated by the houthis. there's talk of violations but the saudi leadership said it was in response to the call for a covid—19 ceasefire but saudi arabia has tried to get out, they are trying to take a difficult and costly issue off the table for it. that is one. jeffrey. brexit.

can you hear me? sorry, i interrupted you. we would be consumed by brexit talk now and i think, putting my cards on the table i thought brexit was a terrible idea and the idea that... we are losing you. hold that thought. we will try and improve the line, i will come back to you. i hope you can hear me, a story that got very little traction this week but i think in another time would have caused big headlines was the sensational acquittal of cardinal george pell who was jailed for the sexual abuse of children, jailed in 2018 for six years and on tuesday the high court in australia quashed the verdict and he was set free. a full bench of seven judges ruled

unanimously that the original trial had not really considered the possibility that what had been alleged had not happened. pell had been accused of the abuse of two boys in the 1990s, he was, before his arrest and charge, investigating the finances of the vatican and he was very much opposed. he was supported by pope francis who wanted him to do it but he was looking at the murky world of vatican finance and was stopped in his tracks because of this case. to have him freed makes one wonder if he will go back to looking at those murky finances on not. i think that would have delivered some headlines. fascinating stories,

jeff we have you back, we had heard you wanted to say we would be obsessed with brexit. the perils of remote broadcasting. there is no question, the december deadline is looming, no resources available to negotiate, boris johnson said this was not going to move. it seems impossible to make it, he will have to back down but we also need to look at the cost to brexit. the european medicines agency was based here in london, had moved to amsterdam, it is responsible for finding medicines and approving them quickly. when a vaccine or some sort of medicine is found and produced in europe, the uk will no longer have first access along with europeans. the consequences of brexit may look very different than they did six months ago and boris johnson, in his reinvented state, is going to have to assess this

and figure out how to navigate it but we're not talking about that now. something you can share that gives you hope, gives you courage or simply gives you a smile? cath is already smiling, maybe it is an easter smile. we have all been touched by the light we see in this dark and i always say that even in the darkest of places, and the rest of that is always in the light you see and people have to find ways to carry on with hope and humour and humanity. i was watching the today programme, musicians on a street saw each other

when they came out to clap and realise they couldn't do something together so they put a hole between their fence and are doing music together. people are coming together in new ways and to use the phrase that when this is over because one day it will be, it will not be back to normal because we have all been profoundly changed and may be some good will come out of this, some light. jeffrey, a thought. just to pick up on that, i live in north london, we had a socially distant gathering last week and everyone sat six feet apart on the little lane, about 12 of us, all very careful, i met my neighbours for the first time. i am ashamed to say i have never met them before but this has brought us together. that is a positive thought. an easter thought for parting? i am delighted that we have given the planet what people of faith would call god's

creation, a breather. i have read somewhere that the air in some cities is more like alpine air, we are all doing things virtually, i hope we are back on dateline in the studio but there has been a lot of unnecessary travel, we can do a lot more virtually and i think if we can learn from this ways of cutting pollution we can help the issue around us thrive. wonderful. you have all brought the clear air of clear thinking, thank you. you have all been wonderful to have virtually and here depriving me for a moment of my loneliness in the studio, thank you. that's it for dateline london for this week — we're back next week at the same time. goodbye.

a mixed picture weather—wise. expect to see some heavy and possibly thundery showers later today. dry and unsettled weather holding on in the south. high pressure has been in charge for several days. slipping away to the near continent now and low pressure dominating across scandinavia meaning we draw in these cold northerly winds, so a change in air mass through the rest of the day but more especially into tomorrow, easter monday, where the colder air and blue colours will spill south. a different feel to the weather tomorrow across the board. today, colder air working in across northern scotland with some showers.

some sunny spells further south across scotland and the bulk of england and wales. northern ireland stays fairly cloudy with outbreaks of rain. in the sunshine to the south—east, temperatures getting up to 24, south—east, temperatures getting up to 2a, possibly 25, but as the heat builds across england and wales, the showers are set to bubble up. they are hitand showers are set to bubble up. they are hit and miss, showers are set to bubble up. they are hitand miss, we showers are set to bubble up. they are hit and miss, we will not all see showers but you could hear some rumbles of thunder across central england and wales through this evening and overnight. showers fading away across the early hours of monday morning. we could see a touch of frost first thing easter monday morning especially in scotland, northern ireland and northern england. tomorrow, another largely dry day with some sunshine. it will be cool and cloudy around the eastern side of scotland and down the east coast of england with a cold wind coming off the north sea. blustery winds through the english channel. gusts could reach 50 mph in the channel islands. a little less windy and more sunny for

the likes of wales and the south west of scotland, northern ireland. temperatures in the warmest spots, around cardiff, around 1a. down the east coast, just 6—9 so much colder than recently. high pressure builds once again through monday night and into tuesday with light winds and clear skies. tuesday morning dawning ona clear skies. tuesday morning dawning on a chilly note with a touch of frost again. a cold start to the week. thing is warming up later in the week and staying largely dry but regardless of the weather, do stay at home whenever you can.

this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. as the number of people who have died with coronavirus in the uk is expected to reach more than ten thousand today a leading scientific adviser warns there could be worse to come and the government should have acted earlier. the uk is likely to be certainly one of the worst if not the worst affected country in europe. the uk parliament remains on course to return on april the 21st a date agreed by mps before the easter recess with mps likely to attend virtually: spain's daily death toll from the coronavirus rises to 619, having falling for three straight days. the us overtakes italy to have the highest death toll