the number of coronavirus cases in the us has passed 1 million. includes 70,000 deaths. president trump put the unwanted milestone down to the volume of tests the us has been coming out. uk government plans to increase the number of test for coronavirus and care homes after figures show this is where a third of the deaths linked to the virus in england and wales are happening. british airways is set to cut up to 12,000 jobs from its 42,000 strong workforce. the airlines as it is duke to collapse because of the coronavirus —— do to collapse. the pilots union has found a fight every singlejob cut.

now on bbc news, it's time for our talk. —— now on bbc news, it's time for our talk. -- hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. the coronavirus pandemic has given humanity an almighty shock. here we are in our technologically advanced, interconnected societies, now living in lockdown, fearful for our health and the future of our economies. so what better time than now to talk to my guest today, the bestselling israeli author and historian yuval noah harari? what are the lessons we can learn from the impacts of coronavirus? yuval noah harari, welcome to hardtalk. thank you, thank you for inviting me.

you are known around the world for taking the grand historical perspective of us, homo sapiens, and you have described with wonderful detail how our extraordinary cognitive abilities have led to a mastery on oui’ environment. but this seems to be a moment when we are learning that our mastery of the environment is extremely fragile. do you see it that way? yeah, it is very fragile, though i have to say that we are still in a much better position with regards to infectious diseases than perhaps in any previous time in history since the agricultural revolution. you know, this isn't the middle ages, and we are not facing the black death. when the black death spread, nobody understood what was happening, what was killing people. today it took us just two weeks to identify the coronavirus behind the present epidemic, and to sequence its entire genome.

of course, we still do not have the power to stop evolution, to stop nature. pathogens continue to jump from animals to humans and continue to mutate, so there will continue to be epidemics. but our ability to understand what's happening, and to some extent, control it, is much bigger than ever before. i understand that point, but maybe there is something else, too. maybe our expectations of how science can protect us are very different now. perhaps in the middle ages when faced with plague, human beings accepted the inevitability that many would die. yeah. and now we find that extremely difficult to accept. yeah. and now we find that extremely difficult to accept. completely. one of the main laws of history, if you can call it a law, is that as conditions improve, expectations increase. yeah. so people can remain as dissatisfied or as vulnerable.

so you are perfectly correct that as our civilisation becomes more sophisticated and powerful, our expectations also increase. so in a way, the sense of fragility also increases. and i am mindful that just one month ago — it seems a long time ago now — butjust a month ago, you wrote this. "humankind is now facing a global crisis, perhaps the greatest of our generation. the decisions people and governments take in the next few weeks could shape the world for years to come. we must act quickly and decisively." 0k, one month on, how are we doing? uh, not so good. you know, in some countries, in some cases, the response has been quite effective. but maybe the most important level, which is the global level, we are not seeing any kind of real global leadership, any kind of real global plan. not on the health care front,

and even less on the economic front. and the big worry is what will happen as the crisis intensifies, not only in the developed world, but also in developing countries, in south america, in africa, in south asia, and if we don't get a kind of global safety net or a global plan, the economic and political consequences could be really catastrophic and could poison international relations for years to come. so as an historian, as a guy who has looked at the nature of leadership over many centuries, why, right now, at this moment of great need global leadership is it so very lacking. why? partly it's because we are paying the price for recent developments in the international system. over the past few years, before the epidemic, we saw the rise of extreme nationalism and isolationism,

and most notably, maybe in the previous leaders of the international community, like the united states in previous crises like the ebola epidemic of 2014 and the global economic crisis of 2008, the united states played the role of global leader and was quite effective. now, the current us administration has basically abdicated the job of global leader, saying, telling the world that it no longer cares about the world, about humanity, it cares only about america. america's first. you have alighted upon donald trump as a deep factor, but surely this goes much deeper than any individual, including mr trump. yeah, because what we're dealing with here, surely, is human nature. we face a pandemic which, to most of us, unless we live in wuhan, for example, has come in from outside. the inclination is to shut borders,

to look for self—protection, to blame others for what is happening to us. all of those are instincts which do lead quite naturally and instinctively to isolation, than cooperation and collaboration and trust. i think we should separate quarantine and blocking borders and stopping flights, from actually blaming and hating foreigners. it doesn't have to go together. the simple fact that i am not meeting somebody or cutting physical relations with somebody does not mean i stop cooperating or i start blaming that person. i am now self—isolating in my house. it doesn't mean that i blame them or that i stop cooperating with them. even in order — if you look at the international system

even in order to isolate effectively, you actually need to co—operate, first and foremost and sharing information. information is the vital fuel for everything we do, on the national level, on the local level. and information in this pandemic demands international cooperation, not a blame game of who is responsible and who is to blame for this epidemic. we need information about the virus, about the disease, even about the lockdown measures. now governments all across the world are experimenting with by somewhat different policies. just one more thought about leadership. this, in a way, is an authoritarian moment, is it not? because again, around the world, populations, publics, are looking for massive reassurance from their leaders, they want strong leaders, whom they believe will protect them. and is that not why authoritarian strains of governance appear to be pretty effective right now?

i don't think — i mean, there are some governments more effective than others, but i don't think the dividing line passes between authoritarian regimes and democracies. which are dealing with this quite effectively, whether it is in east asia, like south korea and taiwan, whether it is new zealand or germany or greece. so i don't think it is a question of only the authoritarian systems. you are right, of course, that in a time of emergency when people are afraid for theirjobs, for the future, for their very lives, there is a built—in tendency in humans to wish for some saviour, for some strong man, and it's almost always a man, that will save us and knows everything and will protect us. but this is very dangerous. i don't think the historical

indicates dictatorships are always better than democracies in dealing with these kinds of situations. yes, dictatorships have one big advantage, which is that they can act faster, because the dictator doesn't need to consult anybody. hejust makes up his mind and says, "0k, do that." and that's an advantage, certainly, but it's also a huge disadvantage. because if the dictator makes the wrong decision, for whatever reason, it's usually much harder to admit a mistake and to try some other course of action. the dictator has a tendency... if i may interrupt forjust a second, you are sitting talking the dictator has a tendency... there, we have a democracy led by a veteran prime minister benjamin netanyahu, which in the course of a response to this emergency has basically curbed parliamentary sittings, has passed legislation which increases the powers of the executive, where we now know that surveillance powers are being employed by the internal

security agency without any parliamentary approval. what we have is a democracy, and it's notjust in israel, but we see others too, where the executive power, without actual accountability, is being vastly expanded. yeah, and i think this is very dangerous. with what happened in israel, at the moment when it seemed that this prime minister, which at the time was just a stand—in prime minister, he did not win the election, there was an election and he didn't win it, he had a minority in the parliament, and he tried to use this emergency to basically shut down parliament and rule by emergency decrees, not as an elected government, this is something very different, from say the german government issuing emergency decrees. the german government has been elected by the people. in israel, at the time, about a couple of weeks ago, you had a parliament elected

not elected by the people, i personally at the moment, made an announcement in my view, this is an attempt at coup. an attempt to overturn the democratic system. fortu nately, overturn the democratic system. fortunately, this was averted. some measure of democratic violence was restored. so yes, there is this danger —— democratic balance. people who think that we should actually do these things because dictatorships work better in emergencies, this is wrong. if a dictator makes a wrong decision, and they often make wrong decisions, no system is perfect. if you build a government system based on the assumption that it will never make a mistake, this is a recipe for disaster. the big advantage of democracies is that you have

different voices and different centres of power. if one voice, if one centre of power, makes the wrong decision, it's easier to notice and rectify it. this is why in the long run, given in such emergencies i think democracies perform better. let's go deeper into the question of surveillance. it has been raised again by covid—19. they are united ina again by covid—19. they are united in a conviction that you need a much greater level of surveillance. it could be about other things in the future, but what they want in your phrase is to get under the skin of their population so that they're surveilling them in the most profound ways to all sorts of physical data, which automatically will be recorded. everything from

their movements to their breath is going to be recorded. . is that in your view, taking the historical perspective of power that we should be happy to invest in our government? that can help humanity fight against this epidemic and against the future epidemics. and we need to use it. but we need to use it responsibly and carefully so we don't end up losing ourfreedoms in order to get protection from epidemics. there is a huge danger for regimes worse than anything we've seen before. in the 20th century you had totalitarian regime that monitored what people are doing but they couldn't go under the skin and monitor what people were actually feeling and thinking. this

was absolutely impossible. they didn't have the technology or the computing power to analyse all the data. now for the first time in history it is becoming feasible to monitor everybody all the time and not just what we do but monitor everybody all the time and notjust what we do but even what monitor everybody all the time and not just what we do but even what we feel. you know we have been hearing for many years about the rise of this surveillance but most people still focus of what you can go over the skin surveillance. what you do not what happens inside your body. like, we already know that corporations and governments can know that you are now watching this show. and they can, if you watch bbc hartog, they can get use from that all kinds of things about your views, about your artistic taste, even about your personality. but this is still limited. they don't know yet what you're actually feeling as you're watching us. do

you think that i'm talking nonsense? do you think that i'm correct and that you're becoming very afraid. are you bored and you're looking for the remote control to switch to another channel? they don't know that. but once you have under the skin surveillance you can know that. because emotions and feelings are biological phenomenon just like fever. the same technology, if you we re fever. the same technology, if you were a bracelet that considered but not constantly monitored their your body temperature, your heart rate, your blood pressure and other biometric data, it can know if you had fever like it can also know if you're angry. 0r had fever like it can also know if you're angry. or if you're joyful or if your board. . and because this technology makes no real different relation between the different aspects of what it can read about you surely if we give up our right to privacy we are going to end the end give up our privacy when it

comes up as our end give up our privacy when it comes up as our thoughts and feelings as well. because her on the same physiological spectrum for a certain extent. not necessarily. i don't believe in technological determinism. i think it's very dangerous to believe that technology is deterministic. 0nce dangerous to believe that technology is deterministic. once you can do something they can be done. it doesn't work like this. in the 20th century people use the same technology to build communistic dictatorships and fascist regimes and liberal democracies. they all used trains and electricity and radio but in different ways. so this new surveillance technology that can go under the skin, it can do good things like improve our health care and we can keep it focused on that and we can keep it focused on that and prevent its abuse. it can't be prevented. first of all, if you establish and use surveillance systems that monitors people,

medical conditions, it should be an independent agency, don't give it to the secret police like they did in israel. and like they did in several other places. this is not the business of the police. other places. this is not the business of the policelj other places. this is not the business of the police. i think for people around the world to be fascinated if we make this quite personal. because in the past you've written and reflected on the degree to which in your own life when you we re to which in your own life when you were young, a teenager, you to which in your own life when you were young, a teenager, you didn't for a long time acknowledge that you we re for a long time acknowledge that you were gay. i think you said is a teenager of 14 there were signals that you were perhaps sending to the world that you are gay but you didn't even acknowledge it to yourself until you are about 21. that is you know, you are basically more interested and pictures of men than women. but you didn't really wa nt to than women. but you didn't really want to know and so you didn't discuss it with yourself will stop ina discuss it with yourself will stop in a sense these days, had you been looking at a computer and had your feelings and your literally, your key ta ps feelings and your literally, your key taps been recorded, in a sense of social media platforms, the data

collection services, would have known you better than you knew yourself. and i'm just wonder philosophically if that's a good place that we are taking our species 01’ place that we are taking our species ora place that we are taking our species 01’ a very place that we are taking our species or a very bad place? it's a new place. it can do good thing and it can do bad things. it's like a knife. a knife, you can use it to kill somebody you can use it to save somebody‘s life, and if you're a surgeon and hospital and you can use it to cut salad. the knife doesn't care. now we have this unprecedented technology to get to know people better than they know themselves. this can be very helpful to them. not only in health care but in many other cases, just think about now there is all this panic in the stock market. and you see the news, the stock market is down 8% this morning. and you panic and you immediately pick up the phone to sell your portfolio. just imagine

that you have nai psychic may be on your smartphone which is monitoring the signals coming from within your body from your brain and recognising that you are now in panic mode. and this is a particular phenomenon it's very easy to spot that. any smartphone tell you wait a minute, we know from so much research this is not the time to make big financial decisions when you're in panic mode. this is the kind of system that serves your interest. it collects data about what's happening in your body not for the benefit of some corporation or government but to serve you. and if it really works well, it can help you make it much better decisions in life about your financial situation, about what to study, about whom to date. no, it's a fascinating glimpse into a positive view of a brave new world. i'm also very aware that right now thanks to the covid—19 pandemic will

also see so many people including leaders of the world from jump tu ples leaders of the world from jump tuples in our in italy, many others too who are peddling false information, fake news. about different elements of this pandemic. science which you've just described offering us the most amazing potentiality for the future, right 110w potentiality for the future, right now is being produced. it is misinforming, we are being misinformed about the facts. how dangerous is that? it's extremely dangerous. because in especially in this disaster, in this crisis science is our bedrock. if we can't trust the basic scientific facts for insta nce trust the basic scientific facts for instance about what this disease is, then we have no idea what to do. oh we do counterproductive things. i think the good signals that we do see around us is that in this crisis, even many people and politicians which previously

disregarded science are turning to ed as the ultimate authority. as the most trustworthy authority. in israel for example, they closed down all the synagogues. in a ran they shut down the mosques. churches all over the world at telling people to stay away from church. because even the religious authorities are trusting what the scientists are saying. when the scientists tell them that look, these places of worship should be closed down because they could spread infection. of course there is still a lot of fa ke of course there is still a lot of fake news out there. a lot of conspiracy theories out there. and we are paying the price. for developments in the last few years when irresponsible not irresponsible politicians have undermined the public trust, in science and in reliable media. but i think it's not too late. a final click on. you have given us this sort of trajectory

this ark for the development of homo sapiens. and you look far into the future. this is covid—19 crisis, which you called the biggest crisis of our lifetime, does it do you represent in the end, a little more than a represent in the end, a little more thana bump represent in the end, a little more than a bump in the road was mac or is it something more profound than that? for me as a historian it's really very interesting this moment right now. i think that in our life and, if you think in terms of a couple of decades, it will be big. not because of the epidemic itself but even more so because of the economic and political consequences. but in the long sleeve of history you know thousands of years, no. i don't think it will be one of the big events of history. it could be a watershed event in several ways. like we discussed earlier with surveillance. people can look back and hundred years and identify the

coronavirus epidemic as the moment when a new regime of surveillance took over. especially surveillance under the skin. which i think, is maybe the most important development of the 21st century. is this ability to hack human beings. to go under the skin, collect biometric data, analyse it and understand people better than they understand themselves. this i believe, is maybe themselves. this i believe, is maybe the most important event of the 21st century. the moment when a system out there knows me better than i know myself. it is never been like this before. with that, fascinating. for looking into the future, i really do appreciate you being on ha rd really do appreciate you being on hard dark and i thank you very much for joining hard dark and i thank you very much forjoining me. thank you very much. thank you, it's been a pleasure.

hello there. it has been the sunniest april on record. things changed a bit on tuesday for many of us. you can see and the way in which rain pushed away certainly across english and whales. some showers for scotla nd english and whales. some showers for scotland and ireland. that first area of rain is clearing away. he could see the frontal system sliding out into the near continent. there's another area of low pressure the lens. more frontal systems coming oui’ lens. more frontal systems coming our way so that means there is more rain and our forecast through the day had. this is our main rain band be pushing his weight northeast. initially running across the midlands into the run london area and by lunchtime and then that rain

will get into northern ireland and southern scotland by the end of the day for the northern scotland will hold onto one or two showers. writers guys returning behind the rain bent as well. quite a windy day also of the southwest of england. those temperatures generally between ten and 14 degrees. i think some coastal areas in northeast england might struggle around eight or nine. as you go through wednesday night here goes our first rain band northwards. and of the pulse of heavy rain was slide its weight northeast with across england, wales 01’ northeast with across england, wales or northern ireland again but to southern scotland. some hefty showers chasing on behind. temperatures to start thursday morning generally between five and 8 degrees. so if thursday at low pressure firmly in charge of the scene. you can pressure firmly in charge of the scene. you can see pressure firmly in charge of the scene. you can see there is frontal systems spiralling around the low. there will be some outbreaks of rain to contend with. patty rain drifting its weight northwards across scotland, perhaps parts of eastern england for a time then it will see sunshine styles and also showers. though showers across the southern half of the uk will be heavy and

thunder he entered the uk. wendy across the south of england and the channel islands. across the channel islands we could see gusts of 50 mph potentially for that the temperatures again in the range of ten to 14 degrees. certainly cooler than has been on many days recently. friday is another sunshine and showers day. the centre of our area of low pressure will start to slide away eastward. you mayjust start of low pressure will start to slide away eastward. you may just start to see something a little bit brighter and certainly drier relevant. temperatures nudging upwards a little bit could get as high as around 15 degrees. then we get into the weekend, certainly to start off it'll be drier with fewer showers. i think some of us will see rain returning from the west. 0n think some of us will see rain returning from the west. on sunday.

a very warm welcome to bbc news. with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. my name's mike embley. american coronavirus cases move past a million — nearly a third of the global total. over 30% of all deaths linked to coronavirus in england and wales are now happening in care homes. france plans to ease its lockdown from next month, but masks will remain a way of life. thousands of vietnamese nationals return home, as hanoi wins praise for successfully combating the coronavirus pandemic. and understanding immunity — we have a special report on one of the major questions about covid—19.