to over 30 million people. latest figures show 3.8 million americans signed on for unemployment benefits last week. economists believe the real figures may be significantly higher with many people struggling with the claims system. president trump says china will be held accountable for the pandemic as soon as us intelligence reports confirm what went wrong. agencies have concluded that the covid—19 virus was not manmade. they're still examining if its spread was due to a possible accident at a chinese laboratory. britain's prime minister says the uk has passed the peak of the outbreak. speaking at his first briefing since recovering from covid—19, borisjohnson warned it was too soon to lift the lockdown. now on bbc news, hardtalk.

welcomed to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. as the global effort to control covid—19 continues, so arguments about culpability for the spread of the virus intensify. and at the heart of the story, china, where the outbreak began. did the chinese government's impulse to cover up the truth put the world in danger, or did beijing respond with admirable determination? my guest today is china's ambassador in london, liu xiaoming. is china the villain or the hero of this pandemic?

ambassador liu xiaoming, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. thank you to be with you again. we are delighted to have you on this programme at this difficult time. let me start, actually, with a very simple, direct question. do you accept that covid—19 has its origins in china? it was first discovered in wuhan, but i can't say it originated from wuhan. you know, according to many information, many reports, including bbc, it can be everywhere and anywhere. you know, it can be in aircraft carriers. it can even be found in the submarine and it can be found in some countries, which have very little connection with china. and also, it can be found

in the group of people who have never been to china. so i couldn't say, we cannot say it has originated from china. ambassador, let me stop you there because i'm a little confused by that answer. i mean, clearly it is a new virus. it originated somewhere, it crossed, it seems, according to all the immunologists and the virologists, it crossed from animals to humans and there was a first case and then it spread. there is no doubt that the first case was in china. i'm wondering why you're telling me it spread over the world and people have caught it who've never been to china. that is clear because it's become a pandemic. but the question that matters so much is — where did it start? i think this question is still up for a scientist to decide where is the first case to be found. i read a report, you know, the first case was reported in china, i am talking in china on december 27

by dr zhang to china. i talked to the local health authorities. but i read a report that some of the cases, even found much earlier than that, we read in the report by your newspapers yesterday, that your scientists medical advisers even warned your government that there might be a virus, unknown to us, much earlier last year. i can say the first case was reported in china on december 27. i think there is no doubt experts believe the origin of the first outbreak, the first examples of this covid—i9 virus to be found in human beings came from wuhan and at the surrounding area in china. i just wonder whether you accept that it is very important that we understand

exactly what happened at the beginning of this outbreak, that we understand, frankly, what mistakes and missteps were made which allowed the first outbreak to become a global pandemic. i think it is still debatable. i think we have to agree to disagree. i think it's first discovered in wuhan, in china, but i can't say it originated from wuhan. let me tell you the timeline of china's fight against this virus. when it was first reported on december 27 by dr zhang and then the chinese health authorities, the cdc, notified who, the fourth day, on december 31 in the shortest possible time,

and also shared this information with other countries. china shared the discovery with the who in the shortest possible time, and also shared the information about genetic sequence of this virus in the earliest possible time. ambassador, just let me interrupt you on this question of the timeline, because you've missed out one very important point. on december 30, a doctor in wuhan, li wenliang, used his chat group online to tell fellow doctors that there was a new very worrying disease in wuhan. he advised his colleagues that they must wear protective clothing to avoid this new infection, and just a couple of days later, he was summoned to the public security bureau, he was made to sign a letter in which he confessed that he made false statements that had severely disturbed the social order.

that was the beginning of an official cover—up which continued through the month of january. as i said earlier, now i understand why there's a so—called call for independent investigation. they tried to find excuse to criticise china for a cover—up, but the fact is that li wenliang was not the first one who discovered this virus. i have told you it was drjiaxian zhang, and he reported three days earlier than li wenliang. then the health authorities in wuhan reported to the central government four days later. that means one day after li wenliang spread this word, china authorities shared this information with the who and other countries. with respect, ambassador,

the information that was shared was actually extremely limited because onjanuary 14 — we now know this from leaks that have been given to the washington post and the associated press — we know than internally, china's national health commission head, mr xiaowei, laid out a very grim assessment of what was happening. he said the situation was severe, complex, clustered cases suggest human—to—human transmission is happening, the risk of transmission and spread is high. but in public, that was internal. in public, the head of china's disease control emergency centre, the very next day, said the risk of sustained human—to—human transmission is low, that it was preventable and controllable. so i put it to you again, there is compelling evidence that china, for weeks,

did not tell the truth. you give me not enough time to answer your question. i haven't answered a question with regard to li wenliang. you talk about the cover—up. that's not true. you know, dr zhang reported through a normal channel to health authorities, but li spread the word among his friends. in an independent country, when you have something, the virus which is dangerous to people's health, when something unknown, there might always be a panic. i think the police authority summoned li to warn him not to do it. you cannot say this is a cover—up since on the opposite channel, we report to the normal channel but on this, we need to make sure that there should be no panic. even today in uk... but the evidence...

i think your government is fighting about this misinformation. you know, some people try to use this to create panic for their own gain. but we have... i think li's case is closed. and then, after it's reported to the central authorities, the government centre investigation team down to wuhan and find out that they did the right thing. and the police reprimand has been revoked and li was made martyr and given the highest of honour... but we have... dr li was indeed regarded by the chinese people as a hero when he died. not only the chinese people, but also regarded by the chinese government. but with respect, i think the people of china are very aware, and i come back to it that the chinese government was not straight with them nor with the outside world. tell me if you can one more time why on january 14

the national health commission document that was an internal document was labelled not to be spread on the internet, not to be publicly disclosed in which they said that there was evidence of human—to—human transmission, clustered cases, a severe and complex problem. why is it that the very next day i come back to it than one of your most senior officials... i think all your information is coming from washington post. i think you depend too much on american media. you know, i really hope you depend on the who for information. we share all this information with the who. i saw your interview, and i think china has been straightforward, transparent and quickest in terms of sharing information with the who. of course, inside china, we have to take

precautions, measures, we have to take strict conventional measures to fight against this virus. it is still unknown then, so people do not know what will happen, but this virus is about. the thing is, ambassador... on the one hand, we share our knowledge, our understanding with the who, with the other countries... but ambassador, your problem is — and you are a very senior diplomat, understanding with the who, with the other countries... but ambassador, your problem is — and you are a very senior diplomat, simply don't believe the chinese version of events. donald trump, only a few hours ago, said that he is not happy at all with china's stance. "they could've stopped the virus at the source," he said. "we are undertaking a thorough investigation. " and the vice president mike pence listed a whole host of reasons why the united states believes that china was not straight with the world and is, therefore, culpable for the fact that this pandemic is now causing so much

death and so much economic damage right around the world. you have, as china, a massive problem now. i don't think so. i think when you say china has a massive problem, i think you are more talking about western world. i think since the outbreak, china has a very strong cooperation with the who and many other countries. we sent technical assistance and experts and provided medical supplies to more than 150 countries. all of them spoke highly of china's efforts. so, i can't say the united states represents the world and even in the western world, we have been receiving appraisal, praise from the countries like united kingdom, from france, from germany. you quote president trump. let me also quote him

about his comment about china. on january 2a — that was one month after we reported — almost one month we reported this virus, he said, "the united states greatly appreciates china's efforts and the transparency." so, six days later, and he said, "they are working very hard and we are working very closely with china." he said, "they are doing a greatjob. they handled it well." things have changed a great deal since the end ofjanuary, and china, it has to be said, you say, "look at what we've done to deliver medical assistance and equipment around the world." what many people see is china running a campaign of disinformation and propaganda around the world in recent weeks. you say we have a great relationship with france. the french just called in your

counterpart the chinese ambassador in france accusing him of spreading disinformation because the embassy website in paris is claiming that all people in care homes in france are being abandoned to suffer and die alone. that is a colleague of yours. another colleague of yours in the foreign ministry used social media to promote the conspiracy theory that the us military had a smuggled coronavirus into china. why is your country running this disinformation campaign? i think you picked the wrong target. it's not china who starts this campaign of disinformation. you can compare china's statement and comments by china's leaders, chinese diplomats, chinese ambassadors with american counterparts, you will know who is spreading disinformation. do you agree... both speak

do you agree with the foreign ministry spokesman who did put up the link suggesting that the us military had smuggled coronavirus into china? is that something you also believe? i think what you're saying is he retweeted some comment by some media reports. you know that i do not know why you focus on some comments by intermediaries in china but miss the disinformation by a senior official, even the national leaders of the united states for some they start this campaign of disinformation. —— individual in china. especially by the type diplomat, the secretary of state. i think when it comes to china, there are no good worth about china. the chinese are regarded as evil regularly. not as a country lending a helping hand for

americans in the fight against this virus. i do not quite understand. how deep is the crisis with united states right now that has been sparked by all that the accusations that have arisen from coronavirus? how deep is the diplomatic crisis? we certainly want to have a good relation with united states. i had been posted twice in washington, dc. i always believe china and united states will gain from cooperation and lose from confrontation. and we have every reason to have a good relation with the united states but it has to be based on mutual trust, coordination, not confrontation. but you need two to tango. and since the outbreak, i think president xi and president trump keep close contact. they compare notes and just like president xi had a similar conversation

with prime minister borisjohnson. we want to build an international response to this virus. i just want to let americans know that china is not the enemy of the united states. it is the virus! it is the enemy of the united states, they need to find the right target. a very important message or a sending facet could consider some gestures that would improve relations with not just the united states but many other countries including australia and the uk who have made the same point to your government. —— maybe china could consider. will you now categorically guarantee to close down the so—called wet markets, no longer the sale of these live wild animals in the food markets that are known as the wet markets? is that now something that has been banned not just short—term but absolutely banned

forever in china? first to come to your first point about many countries. i cannot agree with you that china has a problem with a many countries. i think we have more friends than opponents than even enemies. i even say western countries, a few of would say western countries, do not represent the world. i think china enjoys good relationships and i think we are building an international response. we are building that net president xi said... ambassador, we are short on time, if i may... i need specific answers. on the wet markets, are they now closed for good? yes or no? there is no such thing about wet markets. this is a western and for a notion to many chinese. —— four in notion. we do have a fresh market where fresh vegetables and fresh seafood, fish,

are sold and some live poultry that is very rarely. i think you're talking about the so—called illegal market for selling wildlife. that has been totally banned. and the law has been passed that it will be banned permanently. yet is there for a recognition, yes, a recognition on your government puts my part that the dangers of those markets where live wild animals were sold alongside other foodstuffs, they were dangers that date because the spread of coronavirus from animals to humans? —— that -- that did —— that did cause the spread of coronavirus. i agree with that. finally we have a few points to agree with. i'm very pleased with that. that's what this market, we are talking about wildlife market. it is totally banned. it is illegal to hunt, to treat, to eat even. so... people watching this will only wish

that you made that ban real before coronavirus spread and cause such terrible damage around the world. are you in anyway now prepared to say sorry for what's happened? no, you come to your first point again. you cannot blame china for coronavirus. that is the problem with this argument. it was found in china, it was found in many places. many places that have no connection with china at all. you keep pointing yourfinger set china for the outbreak and we have done our best capability. —— fingers at china. china is a victim of the coronavirus. china is not a source of this problem. china is not the producer of this epidemic. that is something we have to come clean about. china, you know ambassador is seen for example by leading politicians

in this country like the chairman of the parliamentary foreign affairs select committee as very much the cause. he has talked about a soviet style system, a toxic system inside your government, inside your machine which he says has been responsible notjust for betraying the chinese people and their health and well—being but betraying the wider world as well. —— inside your regime. and there are now because for the united kingdom and also calls in the united states and other countries for a disengagement from close economic ties with china. in britain, it is centred on huawei and your telecoms giant activities in the sg sector. people saying that should no longer be tolerated in the united kingdom. as the ambassador in the uk, are you worried that there is going to be now an economic disengagement? no. i think you talk about this person as very senior politicians.

but i don't think this view represents official positions of the uk government for some. i think the uk government and prime ministerjohnson are so committed to a stronger partnership with china. he reaffirmed the uk's commitment to build a golden era with china. we do have a very good cooperation with the uk side, even throughout this outbreak in addition to communication, intensive communication. i have been here for ten years as a chinese ambassador. our top leaders have never seen such intensive communications. and on a ministerial level, we have a foreign minister, one state councillor with secretary dominic raab

and i here in london have very close contact with the secretaries including matt hancock and alok sharma, foreign secretary dominic raab, we have a strong relationship. you quote those people, soviets for example. i think there is totally a cold war man tell any of us up we are living in the third decade of the 21st century but those people still believe in old days when they were fighting the cold war. —— cold war mentality. china is not former soviet union. i think china and uk... we are united by common interests than divided by other differences. i am very confident about this relationship. ambassador, we have to end it there but i do think you very much indeed forjoining me here on hardtalk at this difficult time. liu xiaoming, thank you very much indeed. my pleasure.

we may have had to wait till the end of april, but yesterday's storms we re of april, but yesterday's storms were quite impressive. nowhere immune from seeing several downpours. some of the showers were particularly impressive. from this cloud, the sign of very active convection in wiltshire. two pea sized hail falling from buckinghamshire and further north and scotland, we had this file dropping from the storm clouds in

galloway. over the next few hours, they are still a few showers dotted around across england, wales, northern ireland and northern and western scotland. it's not too cold. we are mostly looking at temperatures around four to seven celsius. low pressure in charge of oui’ celsius. low pressure in charge of our weather as we head onto friday. it's another day where nowhere is immune from seeing a shower too. even parts of southern england, there will be showers driven by a brisk wind here. the heaviest showers to the day will be across northern ireland into southern scotla nd northern ireland into southern scotland and northern england. at the cross these areas through the afternoon that we are most likely to see some flashes of lightning. sunshine around, but some of the showers across the north will be slow—moving. this weekend the winds will tend to fall much lighter. there will still be showers around the north and east. some sunshine but it will be quite cloudy at times, too. saturday we start off with some morning sunshine but clouds

will develop and turn quite cloudy towards the middle of the day until the early afternoon. showers around north and eastern scotland, some running into parts of north and east england as well. temperatures, we are looking at highs for many of us around 14 and 17 degrees celsius. we start off fine again on sunday but clouds will build across the sky and again still showers to come across northern and eastern scotland again running down into parts of north—east england. temperatures similar, for most of us between 14—17, relatively mild. the forecast into next week — the weather will settle down more, more sunshine to look forward to, and temperatures rising a few degrees as well.

this is bbc news. i'm lewis vaughan jones with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world: president trump says china will be held accountable for the pandemic as soon as us intelligence reports confirm what went wrong. they could have stopped it. they could have stopped it. they are a very... borisjohnson says the uk is finally past the peak of the coronavirus outbreak but warns against lifting the lock down too soon. we can now see the sunlight on the pasture ahead of us and so it is vital that we do not now lose control and run slope into

a second and