now on bbc news, hardtalk‘s stephen sackur speaks to the chinese ambassador to the uk liu xiaoming. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. as the global effort to control covid—19 continues, so arguments about culpability for the spread of the virus intensify. and at the heart of the story, china, where the outbreak began. did the chinese government's impulse to cover up the truth cost the world dear, or did beijing respond with admirable determination? well, my guest today is china's ambassador in london, liu xiaoming. is china the villain or the hero of this pandemic? ambassador liu xiaoming, welcome to hardtalk.

thank you. thank you to be with you again. we are delighted to have you on our programme at this difficult time. let me start, actually, with a very simple, direct question — do you accept that covid—19 has its origins in china? it was first discovered in wuhan, but i can't say it originated from wuhan. you know, according to many information, many reports, including bbc, it can be everywhere and anywhere. you know, it can be in aircraft carriers. it can be found even in the submarine and it can be

found in some countries, which have very little connection with china. and also, it can be found in the group of people who have never been to china. so i couldn't say — we cannot say it's originated from china... ambassador, let me stop you there, because i'm a little confused by that answer. i mean, clearly, it is a new virus. it originated somewhere, it crossed, it seems, according to all of the immunologists and the virologists, it crossed from animals to humans, and there was a first case and then it spread. there is no doubt that the first case was in china. i'm wondering why you're telling me that it spread over the world and people have caught it who've never been to china — that is clear because it's become a pandemic. but the question that matters so much is — where did it start? i think this question is still up for a scientist to decide where is the first case to be found.

i read a report, you know, the first case was reported in china — in china, i'm talking in china on december 27 by dr zhang to chinese local health authorities, but i read a report that some of the cases, even found much earlier than that, you know, we read even the report by your newspapers yesterday, that your scientists, medical advisers even warned your government that there might be a virus, unknown to us, much earlier, last year. so i can say that the first case was reported in china on december 27. i think there's no doubt experts believe the origin of the first outbreak,

the first examples of this covid—i9 virus to be found in human beings came from wuhan and the surrounding area in china. i just wonder whether you accept that it is very important that we understand exactly what happened at the beginning of this outbreak, that we understand, frankly, what mistakes and missteps were made, which allowed the first outbreak to become a global pandemic. i think it is still debatable. i think we have to agree to disagree. i think it's first discovered in wuhan, in china, but i can't say it originated from wuhan. let me tell you the timeline of china's fight against this virus. when it was first reported on december 27 by dr zhang and then chinese health authorities, cdc, notified who, the fourth

day, on december 31, in the shortest possible time, and also shared this information with other countries. china shared the discovery of the problem with the who in the shortest possible time, and also shared the information about genetic sequence of this virus in the earliest possible time... ambassador, let me just interrupt you on this question of the timelime, because you've missed out one very important point. on december 30, a doctor in wuhan, li wenliang, used his chat group online to tell fellow doctors that there was a new and very worrying disease in wuhan. he advised his colleagues that they must wear protective

clothing to avoid this new infection, and just a couple of days later, he was summoned to the public security bureau, he was made to sign a letter in which he confessed to making false statements that had severely disturbed the social order. that was the beginning of an official cover—up, which continued through the month of january. as i said earlier, now i understand why there's a so—called call for independent investigation. you know, they tried to find excuse for them to criticise china for a cover—up, but the fact is that li wenliang is not the first one who discovered this virus. i have told you it was drjiaxian zhang, and he reported three days earlier than li wenliang to the health authorities. then the health authorities in wuhan reported to the central government four days later.

that means one day after li wenliang spread this word, china authorities shared this information with the who and other countries... with respect, ambassador, the information that was shared was actually extremely limited, because onjanuary 14 — we now know this from leaks that have been given to the washington post and the associated press — we know than internally, china's national health commission head, mrxiaowei, laid out a very grim assessment of what was happening. he said that the situation was severe, complex, clustered cases suggest human—to—human transmission is happening, the memo said, the risk of transmission and spread is high. but in public — that was internal — but in public, the head of china's disease control emergency centre, the very next day said the risk of sustained human—to—human transmission is low, that it was preventable and controllable.

so, i put it to you again — there is compelling evidence that china, for weeks, did not tell the truth. you give me not enough time to answer your question. i haven't answered a question with regard to li wenliang. you talk about the cover—up. that's not true. you know, dr zhang reported through a normal channel to health authorities, but li spread the word among his friends. you know, in any country, when you have something, the virus, which is dangerous to people's health, when something unknown, there always — there might be a panic. so i think the police authority summoned li, to warn him not to do it. you can't say this is a cover—up since on the official channel, you know, we report through the normal channel, but on this, we need to make sure

that there should be no panic. you know, even today in uk... but the evidence... i think your government is fighting about this misinformation. you know, some people try to use this to create panic for their own gain. but we have... i think li's case is closed. and then, you know, after it's reported to the central authorities, the government sent an investigation team down to wuhan and find out that li did the right thing, you know, and the police reprimand has been revoked and li was made martyr and given the highest honour... dr li was indeed regarded by the chinese people as a hero when he died. not only the chinese people, but also regarded by the chinese government. ah, but with respect — with respect, i think the people of china are very aware, and i come back to it,

that the chinese government wasn't straight with them, nor with the outside world. just tell me if you can one more time why on january 14 the national health commission document that was an internal document was labelled not to be spread on the internet, not to be publicly disclosed in which they said that there was evidence of human—to—human transmission, clustered cases, a severe and complex problem. why is it that the very next day — i come back to it — that one of your most senior officials... i think all your information are coming from washington post. i think you depend on too much on american media. you know, i really hope you depend on who for information. we share all this information with the who. you know, i saw...i saw your interview, and i think china has

been straightforward, transparent and quickest in terms of sharing information with the who. of course, inside china, we have to take precautions, measures, we have to take strict conventional measures to fight against this virus. it is still unknown then, so people do not know what will happen, what this virus is about. the thing is, ambassador... on the one hand, we share our knowledge, our understanding with the who, with the other countries... but, ambassador, your problem is — and you're a very senior diplomat, you know this is a problem — that many people around the world simply don't believe the chinese version of events. donald trump, only a few hours ago, said that he is not happy at all with china's stance. "they could've stopped the virus at the source," he said. "we are undertaking a thorough investigation. " and the vice president, mike pence, has listed a whole host of reasons why the united states believes that china was not straight

with the world and is, therefore, culpable for the fact this pandemic is now causing so much death and so much economic damage right around the world. you have, as china, a massive problem now. i don't think so. i think when you say china has a massive problem, i think you are more talking about western world. ithink, you know, since the outbreak, china has a very strong cooperation with the who and with many other countries. you know, we sent technical assistance and experts to — and provided medical supplies for more than 150 countries. all of them spoke highly of china's efforts. so, i can't say united states represents the world, and even in the western world, we've been receiving appraisal, praise from the countries like united kingdom, from france, from germany.

you quote president trump. let me also quote him, you know about his comment about china. on january 2a — that was one month after we reported — almost one month we found this virus, he said, "the united states greatly appreciates china's efforts and the transparency. " so, six days later, and he said, "they are working very hard and we are working very closely with china... he said, "they are doing a greatjob. they handled it well." things have changed a great deal since the end ofjanuary, and china, it has to be said, you say, "look at what we've done to deliver medical assistance

and equipment around the world." what many people see is china running a campaign of disinformation and propaganda around the world in recent weeks. you say we have a great relationship with france. the french just called in your counterpart, the chinese ambassador in france, accusing him of spreading disinformation because the embassy website in paris is claiming that old people in care homes in france are being abandoned to suffer and die alone. that's a colleague of yours. another colleague of yours in the foreign ministry used social media to promote the conspiracy theory that the us military had smuggled coronavirus into china. why is your country running this disinformation campaign? i think you picked a wrong target. it's not china who start this campaign of disinformation. you can compare china's statement, comments by china's leaders, chinese diplomats, chinese ambassadors with american counterparts. you will know who is spreading disinformation.

you know, if you read the comments... do you agree — hang on — do you agree... do you agree with the foreign ministry spokesman who did put up the link suggesting that the us military had smuggled coronavirus into china ? is that something that you also believe? i think what you're saying is he retweeted some comment by some media reports. you know that i do not know why you focus on some comments by individuals in china, but you miss the disinformation by senior officials, by even the national leaders of the united states, you know, start this campaign of disinformation, especially by the top diplomat, you know, secretary of state. i think when this comes to china, there are no good words about china, and chinese are regarded as evil,

not as a country which is lending a helping hand for americans in the fight against this virus. i do not quite understand. in your view, ambassador, how deep is the crisis with the united states right now, that has been sparked by all of the accusations that have arisen from coronavirus? how deep is the diplomatic crisis? we certainly want to have a good relation with united states. you know, i've been posted twice in washington, dc. i always believe that china and united states will gain from co—operation and lose from confrontation. and we have every reason to have a good relation with the united states, but it has to be based on mutual trust, coordination, not confrontation. but you need two to tango. and since the outbreak, i think president xi and president trump keep

very close contact. the have two telephone conversations, they compare notes, and just like president xi had two telephone conversation with prime ministerjohnson. you know, we want to build an international response to this virus. i just want to let americans know that china is not the enemy of the united states. it's the virus! the virus is the enemy of the united states. they need to find the right target. it's a very important message you're sending. maybe china could consider some gestures that would improve relations with not just the united states, but many other countries, including australia and the uk, who've made the same point to your government. one, will you now categorically guarantee to close down the so—called wet markets, that there will no longer the sale of these live wild animals in the food markets that are known as the wet markets?

is that now something that has been banned, notjust short term, but absolutely banned forever in china? first, come to your first point about many countries. i cannot agree with you that china has a problem with many countries. and i think — i would say we have more friends than opponents, even than enemies. you know, i, as i said, western countries, a few, i would say, western countries, do not represent the world. i think china enjoys good relationships and i think we are building an international response. we are building... you know, president xi said... ambassador, we're short on time. i find may, ambassador, ijust need specific answers. on the wet markets — are they now closed for good, yes or no? there's no such thing about wet markets. this is a western —

foreign notion to many chinese. we do have a fresh market where the fresh vegetables, fresh seafood, fish, are sold and some live poultry, that's very rarely. i think you're talking about the market, the so—called illegal market for selling wildlife. that has been totally banned. and the law has been passed that it will be banned permanently. so, ambassador, that is, therefore, a recognition, yes? ijust want to be clear — a recognition on your government's part that the dangers of those markets where live wild animals were sold alongside other foodstuffs — they were dangers that did cause the spread of coronavirus from animals to humans? i agree with that. finally, we have a few points to agree with. i'm very pleased with that.

that's why this market — we are talking about wildlife market — it is totally banned. you know, it's illegal to hunt, to treat, to eat even, so... people watching this, ambassador, will only wish that you'd made that ban real before coronavirus spread and caused such terrible damage around the world. are you in any way now prepared to say sorry for is happened? no, you come to your first point again. you cannot blame china for coronavirus. that's the problem with this argument. it was found in china, it was found in many places. places that have no connection with china at all. so, you can't point yourfingers at china for the outbreak, and we have done our best capability. china is a victim of the coronavirus. china is not a source of this problem. china is not the producer of this epidemic. that is something we have

to come clean about. china, you know ambassador, is seen for example by leading politicians in this country like the chairman of the parliamentary foreign affairs select committee as very much the cause. he has talked about a soviet style system, a toxic system inside your government, inside your machine which he says has been responsible notjust for betraying the chinese people and their health and well—being but betraying the wider world as well. and there are now because for the united kingdom and also calls in the united states and other countries for a disengagement from close economic ties with china. in britain, it is centred on huawei and your telecoms giant activities in the sg sector. people saying that should no longer be tolerated in the united kingdom. as the ambassador in the uk, are you worried that there is going to be now an economic disengagement? no.

i think you talk about this person as very senior politicians. but i don't think this view represents official positions of the uk government for some. i think the uk government and prime ministerjohnson are so committed to a stronger partnership with china. he reaffirmed the uk's commitment to build a golden era with china. we do have a very good cooperation with the uk side, even throughout this outbreak in addition to communication, intensive communication. i have been here for ten years

as a chinese ambassador. i have seen our top leaders have never seen such intensive communications. and on a ministerial level, we have a foreign minister, one state counsellor with secretary dominic raab and the director has a close contact with others. and i here in london have very close contact with the secretaries including matt hancock and alloc sharma, foreign secretary dominic raab, we have a strong relationship. you quote those people, soviets for example. i think there is totally a cold war mentality. we are living in the third decade of the 21st century, but those people still believe in old days, when they were fighting the cold war. china is not former soviet union. i think china and uk... we are united by common interests then divided by other differences. i am very confident about this relationship. ambassador, we have to end it there, but i do thank you very much indeed

forjoining me here on hardtalk at this difficult time. liu xiaoming, thank you very much indeed. my pleasure. skies have threatened rather than delivered many showers today. the garden has been a nice place to be. until spring just now. for part two of the weekend tomorrow, high pressure in control for much of the uk but still if you showers breaking it. the greater chance tomorrow catching one than today. a bit of patchy light rain in places. that is the case is going to deny is the

cloud increases. where we have seen some showers today across northern and eastern scotland, north—east england, they will still be paid as we get on into the night. for most, overnight, it is dry with clear spells. temperatures fall a little lower than this and more rural spots, but most of us are void if ross going into the morning. the sun they will start dry with a pyramid of centring around, but cloud will and showers will break out. towards northern and eastern scotland there would be if you are northern ireland too. later in the afternoon a chance of showers here. they could be heavy. a lot more cloud compute service in england and wales. they could be patchy rain. it will fill colour in scotland. —— it will feel cooler in scotland. —— it will feel cooler in scotland. rain across parts of yorkshire and lincolnshire which

will gradually clear on monday, just leaving if you showers. most places on monday will be dry, cloud and sunny spells around. the windowjust start to pick up. across parts of england and wales coming in from the east. as we get be on monday to tuesday, the weather system down towards the south—west brings new life and a spell of heavy rain here, particular to our south—west england some uncertainty about where it's going to set before it fizzled out later on tuesday. it does bring the chance of seeing a bit of rain. try on wednesday, and throughout the week for much of scotland and northern ireland, it is looking dry with a mixture cloud and sunshine. starting the week with a batch of rain, from mid week on looking dry.

this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. ministers in the uk look at proposals to get the economy restarted — including easing some measures of the lockdown. in spain, the country has begun to ease its strict lockdown rules — adults have been enjoying their first outdoor exercise in seven weeks. rolls royce prepares to cut thousands ofjobs due to coronavirus — a decision on the exact number will be made by the end of the month. the uk government pledges over £76 million to the most vulnerable in society during the pandemic. this funding will help charities, support survivors of domestic and sexual abuse. it will support vulnerable children and their families. and it will support victims of modern slavery.