this is bbc news. the headlines: the bbc has seen the first draft of the government's strategy to reopen the uk's workplaces. it indicates that businesses won't be required to maintain 2—metre distancing between employees. where social distancing is not possible, it says additional measures should be considered, including the use of protective equipment. the us secretary of state has said there's enormous evidence that the coronavirus pandemic originated in a laboratory in the chinese city of wuhan. however, mike pompeo gave no proof, and when challenged, said he had no reason to believe the virus was artificially made or genetically modified. russia has recorded its biggest daily increase in confirmed coronavirus cases. there were more than 10,000 new cases reported on sunday, bringing the total number to around 135,000. more than half of all cases and deaths have been reported in moscow.

now on bbc news, hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i am stephen sackur. the coronavirus pandemic has presented europe with a massive challenge and the response... well, so challenge and the response... well, so far the european union has struggled to cope as the death toll has mounted on the economic damage worsened, european solidarity and co—ordinated action have been in short supply. my guest today is the long serving influential dutch mep, sophie in ‘t veld. has this pandemic exposed weakness at the heart of the european project?

sophie in ‘t veld in brussels, welcome to hardtalk. hello. you are a euro file. you make no apology for your enthusiasm for the european project. i wonder then how disappointed you are with the european union's response to this massive coronavirus challenge. look, frustration is part of life, but if i look at the development of the european union over the decade, i noted that every time it was a crisis that triggered further integration and development, and everybody is struggling with this crisis, and, yes, so was the european union. but it took a while and we can see that first of all the response to the health crisis to start with has really taken momentum

now in terms of, for example, the joint procurement of protective materials and stuff like that. yes, there is a big argument over money, and that is of course always a very difficult one. there is an issue of solidarity, trust and, yeah, those are difficult challenges. let's go through this piece by piece. do you think there is institutional complacency in the city you are speaking to me from, brussels? i am just mindful of, for example, an official memo that was sent on february five from a senior european official saying at a private meeting about coronavirus and euro's preparations given what was happening in china by then, he said things are under control. now, they patently were not under control and we learned just a few weeks later that europe is desperately short, for example, of protective

equipment. is there institutional complacency? again, i think we see institutional complacency, as you call it, around the world, including in the uk and the us. it was your own prime minister who not long ago before he fell ill was fairly lighthearted about the whole thing, andi lighthearted about the whole thing, and i think we have all made mistakes. we have all underestimated it, and the question is, how are we now going to face this crisis together, but also the post crisis period. an they are sometimes frustrated and angry at the lack of progress or complacency, the disunity? yes, of course, because i think it is unnecessary and it is undermining our efforts. at the same time, ican undermining our efforts. at the same time, i can also see the massive effort are being made, and if you see how the european union has responded to pass crisis, we are slow to respond, but we do respond, and ultimately, it has always made it stronger and it has made us

actually the most prosperous and safe continent in the world ultimately. right, but it isn'tjust the speed of the response would you characterise as slow. it is also the nature of the response. if one looks at the instinctive reaction of so many national governments across the european union back in march, one sees an immediate default reversion to national self—interest. not to any sense that we are in this together, but, for example, nations across the european union were banning the export of medical equipment and other supplies simply to ring—fence it for themselves. this wasn't just a to ring—fence it for themselves. this wasn'tjust a lack of solidarity, it was a very opposite of solidarity. but we are living and we have been living for a couple of yea rs now we have been living for a couple of years now in times of rampant nationalism, which is also being embraced by some government leaders inside the european union and

outside the european union, and it is not alien to the united kingdom either, i think. is not alien to the united kingdom either, ithink. but is not alien to the united kingdom either, i think. but if you look at where we are coming from, after the ruins of two world wars and 45 years of communist and military dictatorship, we have very little reason to trust each other. and yet the europeans were able to read doubt and to say, ok, it is not easy, we have to learn how to trust each other, but we are going to have a common future, a common...” haven't tried that argument out on many italians wesley —— have you? haven't tried that argument out on many italians wesley —— have you ?m is very difficult for the italians, yes, i understand they feel abandoned. at the same time let's not forget there are some political leaders as well who are of course exploiting this. but this is the real world we' re exploiting this. but this is the real world we're living in and these things come with ups and downs and we ta ke things come with ups and downs and we take a couple of steps forward, a couple of steps backwards, but we do learn, andi couple of steps backwards, but we do learn, and i do believe in the

ability of the european union to learn and to advance. we have shown every time that we do that. and again, if you look at the results, if you simply look at the results, we are a very strong, prosperous continent, yes, we are going to take a big blow of this crisis, like everybody else, but we are much better off and much more prepared for the world after the corona crisis if we stick together in a strong and deeply integrated european union. deeply integrated, you say, and you make no apology for being a much integration as european politicians. does it bother you that we see so many different approaches to, for example, the lockdown, the emergency response to coronavirus, in different european countries? i am thinking of the netherlands, your home country, which has adopted what some call the intelligent lockdown, keeping as many businesses as

possible open, trying to keep some sense, semblance of an economy ticking over while in neighbouring countries like, for example, belgium and france, there has been a com plete and france, there has been a complete and total lockdown. so for you, with your absolute priority on integration, have seen fragmentation. does that bother you? yes, of course it does, and it bothers everyone. i don't think the differences are that big. it is exaggerated a little bit because it was presented in the media, in the netherlands, it was all very careless and there was hardly any measure. but of course is not true. but there are different approaches and time will tell which was the best one and what is actually the bigger problem is the fact that different countries inside and outside europe have their statistics compiled in a different way, counted ina compiled in a different way, counted in a different way. example, in belgium, the figures are very high but they also count cases which have not been confirmed by testing, but which are very, very probable to be,

you know, people who have died of corona because they have all the symptoms. even if they haven't been tested, they are still counted in the statistics. in other countries, they are not doing it in the figures are probably much higher. look, nobody... nobody knows the ultimate a nswer to nobody... nobody knows the ultimate answer to this. nobody does. not even the president of the united states despite the fact that he is a sta ble states despite the fact that he is a stable genius. so everybody is trying to find their way and i think sharing information, working together, yes, that is very important, and i think that after a false start, you might say, the european union is getting its act together now and there is a lot more cooperation and solidarity. delicate phrase, false start. let us be honest, how much damage was done by your home country's finance minister going to a meeting of the collective finance ministers of the european union and delivering a lecture on how countries like italy should take responsibility for the mess that their public finances were

m, mess that their public finances were in, at the very same time of thousands of italians were losing their lives. how much long—term damage has been done by that?” their lives. how much long—term damage has been done by that? i have publicly condemned his attitude, his words and his message. i think it was the wrong message, the wrong time and wrong tone of voice, and i think he has recognised that. time and wrong tone of voice, and i think he has recognised thatm time and wrong tone of voice, and i think he has recognised that. it is a bit late because the portuguese described as repugnant, the italians we re described as repugnant, the italians were furious and italian public opinion looking at the very latest polls has moved so far away from support for the european union that a clear majority now disapprove of italian membership.” a clear majority now disapprove of italian membership. i think in hindsight you could also apply this to british politicians in the past. if national politicians do not take their responsibility for the european union, then, yes, it could severely damage and trust here is key, trust and respect, and yes, sometimes big mistakes are being

made. but what is important is the way forward. and i think... you somehow seem to suggest that if you are in favour of european integration, then european union should be perfect and it should not be the size. i am one of the strongest critics of the european union. i think there are very few people who have been as vocal in their criticism of how things work, or rather, don't work. i am very critical of the response of our very critical of the response of our very critical of the fact that the member state governments have been unable and unwilling to address, for example, the migration crisis, i am very critical of the rule of law crisis we are having on the european union. i have even taken the commission and the council to court. but the fact that you are critical and that you are trying to change things actually means that you believe in something, you want to make it better. i understand the point you are making, but it seems to me you have a political problem.

you were very critical of your own netherlands finance minister because he felt he was being completely tone deaf towards the italians. but the substantive issue at stake was an important one, the italians and the spanish have pushed hard for what we might call debt utilisation, to see the massive cost of the coronavirus economy, the crisis to the economy being shared out right across the european union, particularly by some of the more prosperous, richer nations. at the richer nations have responded, pulling —— particularly the netherlands and germany as well, saying we are not yet sharing, this is not what this is about. the truth is not what this is about. the truth is you might, as a liberal pro— integration european, believing that sharing, but your own people in the netherlands don't. if you push too hard, you are going to find that the dutch public is actually turning against things like corona bonds and debt utilisation. thank you very much for your campaign advice. next time we have elections, i will

invite you and my team! am i wrong? my invite you and my team! am i wrong? my constituents actually do very strongly support european integration and i think many people in the netherlands also... many people were extremely critical of the way the finance minister operated, and of course, look, they have been fed a lot of nonsense, burgesses and caricatures and lies for many years, but i think a lot of people also realise in a very pragmatic way as the dutch people are very pragmatic way as the dutch people are very pragmatic, that we are much better off in a inside a strong european union than outside. if you look back at the start of european integration... let me finish. we don't have european union will deal with this massive economic problem. we you are facing recession, gdp can fall by up to 15%. there is going to bea fall by up to 15%. there is going to be a massive hole in the public finances, particularly in countries like italy. the italians say we can't just take more like italy. the italians say we can'tjust take more and more loans

from brussels, we need grants and we need that sharing will the dutch public, the german public wear that or not? that will be a very tough one, it will be very tough to swallow, and of course there will be negotiations on exactly what the package will look like. but i think, yes, it is correct to say that you cannot file debt on the country. more and more and more and sort of already put the debt on the next two, three generations. that is simply not doable. at the same time, you also have to be fair to the dutch voters, to the german voters. but i do think, look, i looked at some graphs of where we started in the 50s where, you know, because both the netherlands and italy were among the six founding fathers of the european union. if you look at gdp per capita the time, it was much, much lower in both countries.

we were very different countries at the time and it was a great deal of poverty. the fact that we managed to trust each other and give and take a little bit has made us all a lot more prosperous. i think that goes for the situation as well, because it isa for the situation as well, because it is a hard one to sell to the public. but you know what? if you only want to sell popular messages, don't go into politics. wise in vice indeed. but without this interview —— throughout this interview you have given me the historical perspective of the postwar history of europe and suggested that it was tough but say we have overcome difficult times before. that i am interested in the fa ct before. that i am interested in the fact that many european leaders today, be at the prime minister of italy or the president of france are saying that we could see the colla pse saying that we could see the collapse of the eu as a political project unless it supports the stricken economies like italy. the decline of the european union is possible, yes to get is possible. i

do not believe, because many people say that that is exaggerated and will never happen, people think it would happen like a big explosion but it will not be an explosion, it will be erosion. that is possible but it is in our own hands and i think the funny thing is that when you mentioned at the start, the fact that there was such a disparity in the response to the coronavirus, many people, european citizens in all countries have said that, look, we expect europe to do more here. if you say people were disappointed or frustrated with the lack of unity at the start, at the same time that also indicates that they understand that there is a point to unity and working together and joining forces. so is ita working together and joining forces. so is it a given for ever and ever? no. it is like marriage. you need to work on it. but is it the best

protection that we have? the best starting point, the best situation to face the post coronavirus world? absolutely. how grave a threat do you see right now to europe's liberties and freedoms? 0ne known as an mep who spends time devoted to human rights and liberty issues. what we have at the moment our governments across the eu who have taken emergency powers which have clearly infringed liberties, they are open about the need to infringe individual liberties but some governments, particularly the hungarian government, have gone to an extreme degree with a new brand of authoritarianism. how concerned are you about that? that is a big worry and i think already some time ago i labelled the situation as a rule of law crisis. we do not only have a corona crisis but also a rule

of law crisis and of course in any country now there is either a state of emergency or there are exceptional powers for government in order to act swiftly which i think is warranted by the situation, absolutely. but in a healthy and robust democracy, there will always be checks and balances and will ultimately always be up to the parliament to decide whether or not the state of emergency will be prolonged sitting you know better than i than in hungary right now we have a government led by victor albarn which has unlimited powers foran albarn which has unlimited powers for an indefinite period. it is not clear how and where —— when those emergency laws would be revoked and in the meantime, elections are suspended and there are punishments for people deemed to threaten national security and the human rights watch organisation has described this as an extraordinarily

ca rte described this as an extraordinarily carte blanche brand of authoritarianism and if europe does not stand up for democracy and rule of law now in hungary, grave damage will be felt across the continent. what will you do about it? he is not a democrat, he is an autocrat at best and we have grave concerns about hungary and about poland but we see not only in the eu that if you look across the atlantic, the whole impeachment process where it was very whole impeachment process where it was very clear that president trump has broken the law and has violated the constitution and everything and many of his fellow republicans would acknowledge that but... we don't have much time, ms in ‘t veld. specifically in hungary, we have a situation where the european parliament invoked a process a couple of years ago to consider punishments for hungary for violating fundamental values of the

european union city now they have gone an extra step and yet we see the chief of the commission respond with a lame statement where she did not even identify hungary by name and we do not have any clue as to how people like you in the european parliament much less those in the council and the commission are ever going to put a meaningful sanction on hungary. it is not going to happen. if you will allow me, this isa happen. if you will allow me, this is a process of maturing of the european union as a political union and as! european union as a political union and as i was giving the example of the united states, you can see how a mature democracy is struggling with it sitting in eu we are making progress. step—by—step. just by —— just today the european commission took poland to court again over undermining the independence of the judiciary. there are more and more court cases. and this is something that you will, that is being built up that you will, that is being built up step—by—step. the procedure, as we call it, the article seven procedure... i know what you call it

that interestingly i spoke to a seniorfigure in the hungarian government the other day and he said to me that the feelings of those european parliament liberal leftist politicians have no imprint on how we run hungary. put simply, we don't ca re we run hungary. put simply, we don't care anymore. it has gone on for too long and if he calls me a left—wing eyewear that is a badge of honour. but, look, if you want to join the clu b but, look, if you want to join the club you have to play by the rules. you do not want to accept the rules that you should not be a member of the club. you want to see hungary out of the club? one of the things we are seriously looking at is... you know, there is a perverse consequence of the eu having supported hungary and the other post 2004 countries with massive amounts of money and much of that money in hungary has ended up in the pockets of the friends of mr 0rban who made

sure that his oligarch friends got a lot of money and support his regime. it does not mean he has the support of all the people in hungary. and there will be a post 0rban era and then we will see what the people of hungary want. a quick final one about brexit. you have had long experience with brexit because you worked with the european parliament on their brexit negotiations and we are now in a period where we are in transition, the british government and the eu were supposed to be negotiating in short order a trade deal which would avoid a harsh and of transition at the end of this year but michel barnier said the other day that the negotiations were disappointing and on the other hand the british government says no more extensions, we will not continue this transition after the end of the year. how dangerous do you believe this to be, given the economic disaster that coronavirus is already

threatening to impose on the eu. you do not have to be a rocket scientist to see that it is almost impossible to see that it is almost impossible to meet the deadlines but, you know, mrjohnson is responsible for his own choices and his own strategy and there are some cynics who say that maybe he is just calculating there are some cynics who say that maybe he isjust calculating because he knows there will be a massive economic recession because of coronavirus. i will tell you what the british seemed to think and i quote michael gove, a senior minister, he says we believe that coronavirus will, quote: focus european minds on getting these negotiations done. " the feeling in britain seems to be in britain that their leverage is stronger because their leverage is stronger because the european economy will be in such a mess he right or wrong?” the european economy will be in such a mess he right or wrong? i find the concern of michael gove for the well—being of the european union

very touching but i would suggest that he concentrates on his own affairs and, of course, if they believe, because brexit will be an additional low to the economy and maybe they will calculate that people will not notice because there will be such a big fallout of the corona crisis which would be a little cynical because i think there are many other matters to be arranged as well. i do not have to do summarise them for you to take so i hope that there are going to be sensible and i hope that this is going to be an honest negotiation. quick final question, do you think there can be, in any realistic sense, a trade deal, a fully worked out trade deal that will allow the transition to end at the end of this year? you have heard the words of michel barnier and i think he is

very dedicated and honest negotiate —— negotiator and i am sure he will do whatever is in his power to achieve such an agreement that it does take two to tango so it is up to the uk government to decide what they want that they should also take they want that they should also take the responsibility if it does not work out. sophie in 't veld, thank you for enjoining me from brussels. hello. the weather looks like warming up for a time in the week ahead before doing a complete u—turn next weekend as we will see in a moment. pleasant where there are some some sunny spells during monday,

still a chance of catching a few showers, particularly across parts of eastern england whereas elsewhere there is high—pressure in control so it looks dry. a few showers for south—east scotland to start the day. they will clear. a frosty start in northern scotland. a few spots in northern ireland. scotland and northern ireland are seeing abundant afternoon sunshine. you can see where the showers are merging to give long spells of rain and showers developing in east anglia into the afternoon, some of the showers could be heavy. much of southern england, west midlands, wales staying dry, warm day with sunny skies compared to monday. the breeze starts to pick up across southern parts during the day. windy overnight with tuesday morning across south—west england was some heavy rain moving in here across the channel islands as well. elsewhere staying dry overnight, chilly as we start tuesday morning and there is a lot of fine weather on the way on tuesday but clearly not for

everyone. still some rain in south—west england fringing south wales, it may push in across parts of south—east england as well with a bit of uncertainty how far north and east this will get before easing, along with the strength of the wind. still breezy and cool as well with temperatures in the mid—low teens in some spots whereas elsewhere sunny spells and a pleasant day, 17 in glasgow and the breeze along the north sea coast keeping it cooler compared to elsewhere. the weather system to the south—west overnight into wednesday has high—pressure reasserting dominance, a slim chance of a shower you are towards south—west england maybe west wales, most will have a fine wednesday in the wind for the most part is light and temperatures creep up but quite widely known into the high teens, a few spots in the 20s.

look at the changes we go through the weekend. a selection of locations here but it happens to all of us, temperatures will take a significant drop, increasingly likely to turn colder from the north next weekend with frost and maybe wintry showers.

this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. i'm aaron safir. the us secretary of state claims there's enormous evidence that the coronavirus originated in a chinese laboratory — but wasn't artificially—made. the british government starts to talk about ending the virus lockdown — but says it could be reimposed in different areas. that means that we can pause or even reintroduce those restrictions that might be required in order to deal with localised outbreaks. dozens of rohingya refugees, stranded at sea for weeks, have been rescued, but taken to a controversial island camp. we talk to the red cross.

and, football matches return to taiwan after the its successful campaign