the headlines: the british prime minister has defended his top advisor, dominic cummings, amid a row over the aide‘s travel during lockdown. boris johnson says mr cummings followed the instincts of every parent and acted with integrity in seeking childcare with family members after his wife had developed symptoms of the virus. thousands of people have been taking part in mass protests againsts china's plans to impose a new security law on the territory. more than 100 people have been arrested. beijing says the legislation will improve people's lives, but campaigners warn fundamental freedoms are being eroded. israel's prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, has appeared in court at the start of his long—delayed trial on corruption charges, just days after he was once again sworn in as premier. he is the first sitting prime minister in israel's history to go on trial in a criminal case. now on bbc news, hardtalk.

welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. no sector of the global economy has been harder hit by covid—19 than the travel and hospitality industry. posh hotels like this one behind me are empty. millions of workers dependent on travel and tourism have been laid off. well, my guest today is sir rocco forte, who is the owner of a string of luxury hotels, and a powerful voice in an industry chafing under strict lockdown rules. is there a future for

a business that relies on social mobility and public confidence? sir rocco forte, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much for asking me to join you. it is a pleasure to have you on the show, and you, like everybody else, have lived through the most extraordinary three months of this covid—19 pandemic. i wonder what impact it has had on you, both personally and professionally, in terms of your business? well, i mean, i have had the virus and recovered from it, so... i am mean, i have had the virus and recovered from it, so... iam back to full health now. i never — i was never hospitalised, or anything like that, and it was really like a very, very bad flu. but the thing is that it leaves you very week afterwards, and it takes about a couple of weeks

to really get back to full fitness after the symptoms have gone. as far as my business is concerned, like the rest of the tourist industry, it is as ifa the rest of the tourist industry, it is as if a nuclear bomb has gone off. i have never known a business, never run a business, with no income before. and in fact, i never dreamt of having to run a business with no income before. but as the current situation, it's created complete havocin situation, it's created complete havoc in the industry, an industry which is so important to the world economy. over 10% of the workforce in the world is employed in the tourism industry in one way or another, and in some countries, of course, it's a lot more than that. so there are a lot of livelihoods at sta ke so there are a lot of livelihoods at stake and lives at stake. millions of people, in fact, and their

families are suffering at the moment, in that many of them are in furlough and therefore not earning their normal level of income, and they have the prospect of, if this thing goes on for much longer, of not being able to return to jobs that will no longer be there for them at the end of it. what about them at the end of it. what about the differences you have noticed across your hotel business? because, as you say, you've got hotels in germany, you've got quite a number of hotels in italy, i believe you got one in st petersburg, russia, and the two in london. now, all of those countries have responded in their own ways to the pandemic, with their own ways to the pandemic, with their own ways to the pandemic, with their own lockdown regimes, some of which are now being eased, some of which are now being eased, some of which are now being eased, some of which are still in place. have you learned any lessons from the ways different national governments have handled this crisis? well, i think certain governments have been more

efficient than others in dealing with it. and have reacted much more quickly than others. i think in this country, the chancellor's introduction of a furlough scheme and then paying the money in three weeks to the companies who had applied for it is quite sensational. in germany, they have been very quick as well. in italy, the process has been a lot slower, but you have a coalition government there, which makes it more difficult for decisions to be made and action to be taken. let me ask you a very simple question. i have looked at some of your public statements since the crisis began and your hotels we re the crisis began and your hotels were effectively robbed of revenues, andi were effectively robbed of revenues, and i have to say, you sound like a businessman who, in terms of priorities, is putting his own bottom line in front of the

collective public health. you seem to be saying to the government in the uk and other governments that their first the uk and other governments that theirfirst an the uk and other governments that their first an overwhelming priority ought to be to save the economy. their first an overwhelming priority ought to be to save the economym my business, i people are very important to me. i know a lot of them, i go round i hotels all the time. i know a lot of them individually. they are relying on me and looking to me for support, and i am... my biggest nightmare is, if this goes on for much longer, i am going to have to make people redundant, not through any fault of their own or any fault of mine. and that's a terrible thing. a lot of livelihoods at stake here. and...|j understand that, sir rocco and they are not helping the health of their nation by getting poorer, and we are facing possibly a massive depression. i understand your... i

understand your concern for your workers and for the state of the overall economy, but when you said just a short time ago the lockdown is an expensive and potentially deadly overreaction, which should be brought to an end as soon as possible, i am brought to an end as soon as possible, iam inclined brought to an end as soon as possible, i am inclined to think, what on earth are you doing intervening in what is surely a debate to be had between epidemiologists, biologists, scientists and politicians? i mean, do you really believe that you have the knowledge to say that the lockdown is an overreaction? you know, obviously i am not a scientist andi know, obviously i am not a scientist and i am not an expert, although the scientist seem to disagree quite considerably, and views have changed since the beginning of the crisis. it is... the virus, it now seems, is not as deadly as people thought, and a lot of studies, particularly the sta nford a lot of studies, particularly the stanford university study, which is a very accurate one and is based on

the experiences in new york, says quite clearly that the risk to individuals of dying of this disease is very low indeed, and they are talking about between 0.1% and 0.2%. and that as far as young people in good health are concerned, there is hardly any risk at all. hang on, if i... and hardly any risk at all. hang on, if i...and of hardly any risk at all. hang on, if i... and of course premature deaths area i... and of course premature deaths are a tragedy, but... but let us just take the data from a host of different independent scientific analysis, which suggests that, for example, had the uk and the us imposed lockdown, which you say is an overreaction, had they imposed lockdown a week or ten days earlier, it would have saved up to three quarters of the many tens of thousands of lives lost. does that not matter to you? well, of course it matters to me. i don't want to see people dying unnecessarily. but

a lot of people are going to die in the future if we carry on the way we are, unless economy is open up, people are allowed to get back to work, and they are not left unemployed for a long time into the future, which will be the result if the lockdown is lifted quickly and the lockdown is lifted quickly and the extreme measures related to it aren't lifted. there was the excuse at the beginning that the hospitals couldn't cope, the national health service couldn't cope, and that may have been a reason to impose the lockdown. but that is no longer the case. but sir rocco our intensive care units have a huge amount of capacity. the nightingale hospitals up and down the country have been mothballed. so that original reason is not there. but let me come back, if i may... and it is not scientific, it is not about science. it is about models that have been created with false assumptions, and initially there is

500,000 deaths scenario, which frightened the government into moving as it did. and since then, all the predictions that have come out on the various models have all been wrong. well, the uk government... so why should we believe them? the uk government is quite clear that it is following the advice of the scientists, led by the chief scientific advisor to the uk government. but i also... i'm very mindful of your role as a boss, and the head of a very big hotel operation. how would you feel if you got your way, the lockdown were ended, your hotels all opened up, and then in very short order both guests and members of your staff, whether it be in the busy bars of the busy kitchens, ended up getting infected with a second surge of covid—i9? how would you feel about that? well, i mean, i don't think that? well, i mean, i don't think

thatis that? well, i mean, i don't think that is necessarily... that is necessarily an option. and the second surge is another sort of scare story, in my mind. there is no proof of that. it is another model which has been extrapolated on some assumptions. and the past assumptions. and the past assumptions that have been used have been wrong. why should these be any better? we are in touch with... i am in touch with my employees now, and have been since lockdown. some directly, obviously not all, and some indirectly, because i have told general managers, in weekly contact with them, they are all longing to get back to work. i am not... we are going to take all the necessary precautions, whatever government says we have to do, we will do, and we have our own protocols which we have developed, 15 pages of them, which significantly change the processes of disinfecting and sanitising the hotel, and keeping

surfaces clean, both in public areas and in the bedrooms. when we open, normally a bedroom in a luxury hotel ta kes normally a bedroom in a luxury hotel takes half—an—hour to clean properly. it is going to take an hour to do it instead. so what do you say — what do you say to the, for example, the senior consultant in birmingham, doctor ron daniels, who when he was asked about whether it was time to ease the lockdown said the reality is that the effect ofa said the reality is that the effect of a potential second wave is just so unknown that it is too risky, in most health professionals' view, to relax lockdown now? are you dismissing that sort of testimony from inside the health service? well, i don't know. i mean, you know, i've... iobviously well, i don't know. i mean, you know, i've... i obviously avidly read everything that's in the newspapers every day and on internet about the virus, and i hear a lot of

different views. i mean, is that... you know, isaw different views. i mean, is that... you know, i saw your very good interview with the swedish epidemiologist anders tegell, and he has a very strong view of how this should be handled —— tegnell. has a very strong view of how this should be handled -- tegnell. but if i may say so, sir rocco, iam should be handled -- tegnell. but if i may say so, sir rocco, i am glad you saw that interview, because what we have seen in the last week, with the latest week of coronavirus data from around the world, is that experts believe that in the past week, sweden has had the highest per capita infection rate in the world. sweden, of course, being the country which decided against imposing a lockdown. doesn't that give you pause for thought? i don't know. i haven't seen those figures, so it is very difficult for me to comment on them. but i mean, the head of the

space agency in israel, who is a general and mathematics professor, carried out a survey across the world, and he found that the virus followed the same course whatever actions government had taken. it sort of tended to peak around a0 days and then tail off between 70 and 90 days. so we are at a stage now, across europe, where the infection rate is at a very low level, where deaths have, thank god, moved to very low levels as well. and i think there is an opportunity to open up economies properly. if you carry on... the reality with this virus, it is going to be with us this virus, it is going to be with usa this virus, it is going to be with us a long time, until there is a vaccine, and we got to learn to live with it. in relation to other viruses and diseases that are

around, which we've learned live with, it's not that dramatically different. in a bad year, influenza reaches 20 30,000 deaths in this country. ia,000 reaches 20 30,000 deaths in this country. ia, 000 people reaches 20 30,000 deaths in this country. ia,000 people a year die of pneumonia. that doesn't mean we lock the country down. let me pick up on that point that we have to live with this. one thing you are living with right now is the reality you are receiving, or your workforce, receiving millions and millions of pounds a month from the government in terms of furlough payments. you have laid off a substantial part of your workforce and they are still being paid, but 80% of their now coming from the government, and according to one newspaper, that is cutting your monthly bill from over £7.5 million to £i.5 monthly bill from over £7.5 million to £1.5 million. you are a conservative party donor, you have long been identified with wanting to

see a small estate, lower taxation, and yet you are now taking vast amounts of public money on behalf of your workers. that will stick in some people's throats. do you understand that? that figure of course applies to the whole of my business and only a small proportion of that applies to the uk. the reality of that, if i still have 5 million a month going out of the window despite all of that, and so by the end of this, it will cost my business some 50 million. it is money which would have gone into investment in new hotels, into training and development of our people, and also into new development. i have to find some way to replace that at the end of this. but the worst thing is that if it

hadn't been for that, i would have hadn't been for that, i would have had to not only lay off, but actually dismiss a lot of my people, which would have been tragic. but you are a very wealthy man. do you think there is any case for the public saying, for somebody like you, very successful businessman who has made a lot of money, should be digging a bit deeper into your own pocket to help you work was rather than relying on the government. pocket to help you work was rather than relying on the governmentlj pocket to help you work was rather than relying on the government. i am not a wealthy man, i am not a billionaire, i am not a wealthy man, i am not a billionaire, iam not not a wealthy man, i am not a billionaire, i am not someone like that. all my wealth is tied to my business. i have no assets outside of my business for the house i live in. it was a few years, 20 years ago, and it has been developed into something which is worthwhile, something which is worthwhile, something i am proud of, and i am proud of it most of all because of the culture and ethos we have created because the people who work in it feel they belong to something worthwhile and are fully committed

to our approach and philosophy in the care we give to our customers, and of course the care that we give to our staff ourselves. the reality, no—one has 50 million, even some of the richest people in the world don't have 50 million in their pocket. if i had it, iwould put don't have 50 million in their pocket. if i had it, i would put it in. i don't unfortunately. the value of my business is going to deteriorate as a result of this. so iam deteriorate as a result of this. so i am suffering as much as anybody else. you say the value of the business will deteriorate. when you look at the medium to longer term, not just the look at the medium to longer term, notjust the next look at the medium to longer term, not just the next few weeks, but looking ahead years, is there any realistic probability do you believe that your business can return to the sort of revenues and profitability that you had before covid—i9? i'm thinking of the fact that we are now looking at a world where quarantine themes is going to become a new fact of life, the uk government says travellers coming back to the uk are

going to face a ia day quarantine, other countries are doing the same thing. other countries are doing the same thing. european countries are opening up their borders to foreign travel. italy is doing so on the third ofjune certainly to european travel within europe and the uk is included in the list of countries that can travel to italy. so it is the uk government bringing in a measure very late in the day with other countries have had before and are now lifting. and it doesn't make any sense at all. london is an international city. it depends on people coming to it and visiting it. notjust people coming to it and visiting it. not just the tourism people coming to it and visiting it. notjust the tourism industry, but the whole of the london economy is dependent on international trade and commerce and the ability for people to come to london, quarantine is going to stop people doing that. it is not really good for the economy, and it is not really good for britain or britain's future. but it

is not even just a question of warranting. it is a question of public attitudes, public caution post covid—i9, even if we get the pandemic under control in most countries. it looks as though, according to public surveys, people are going to be very cautious about resuming their old behaviours when it comes to travel. the aviation industry is a saying in expert several years industry is a saying in expert several yea rs before industry is a saying in expert several years before passenger demand returns to 2019 levels if it ever does. again, for a business like yours, which depends upon mobility and travel, you may be looking at a very, very much more difficult and reduced future. yes, well, of course i understand that, and when we reopen, we will probably open our hotels in september most host cells with the exception of our two resorts in sicily, and of course the incidence of the virus are very low indeed, which they have big open

spaces, and therefore they lend themselves to people going on holiday, even with some level of social distancing, which admittedly has been reduced to one metre by the way. operating at two metres with social distancing makes it almost impossible for a hotel or restaurant to operate. people have been terrified. the success of the government propaganda has been that it has terrified people, people spy on the neighbours and report them to police if they have a minor infringement. if you pass someone in the street three metres away, they shout at you, and of course there is no real chance of any infection passing at that distance. it is terrifying. but i was rather heartened actually by the photographs i saw in the papers this morning of the beaches, various beaches on the south coast which are filled with people and sunbathers...

many people find those pictures deeply disturbing and i wonder, again, when you are running a business based upon luxury experience, the idea that you go to one of your hotels and you have a great time and kick back and relax, the reality now is that many top class hotels a re the reality now is that many top class hotels are talking about introducing mandatory temperature checks on all guests as they enter, they are talking about guests having to wear gloves, special surveillance cameras and all guests and staff areas, masks being made available to all staff and guests. is this really an environment in which the luxury hotel stay is going to be viable? no, of course it isn't, and i don't wa nt to no, of course it isn't, and i don't want to be served by someone wearing a mask, and the whole point of interaction that you want between staff and customers can't happen. what are you going to do? we have to

live with it for as long as we can. what are you trying to say? that i should give up? get the hell out of it? i am not trying to say that. i just want to end with this thought, which you are leading me towards, which you are leading me towards, which is what about the future? you have just told me that your family money is heavily invested in the hotel business. i know that you had expansion plans, you wanted to open a new hotel in china and a couple more in europe and you were very... going back a year, you are very optimistic about the future. as all that changed ? has optimistic about the future. as all that changed? has your vision of expansion now, is it on hold? if you are honest, if you have faith that you are in a sector that has much of a future? yes, of course i do. i have been through some difficult times in my life, as you probably know. to take care of a business my father founded, the financial crisis

found ina father founded, the financial crisis found in a very difficult situation andi found in a very difficult situation and i got through it, i survived both those and moved forward again. this is another crisis we are facing, and intelligent way and we will get through it. and things will return. i think that by the spring of next year, things will not be any different. i think things are different. i think things are different from one week to the next actually. the prime minister seems to be changing his mind already about the locked down and talking about the locked down and talking about easing it even further in ten days time. so i don't think... the doman gloom people are always around and the left will be very pleased to see luxury hotels disappear. but i don't think that is a reality, and i think we will come back and be very

successful. sir rocco forte, we have to end there, but i do thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you very much. thank you. hello there. we saw a top temperature of 23 celsius in the london area on sunday afternoon. bank holiday monday today looks warmer still further south, we could make close to mid 20s celsius across parts of the south—east, but generally, much of the country will be dry and sunny thanks to the influence of this area of high pressure. but through the day, these weather fronts will start to play a part in the weather across the north—west of the uk to bring outbreaks of

rain and strong winds. a fairly fresh start to the day today. we had temperatures in single figures in places, a little bit of early mist and fog across western areas, which will tend to burn away quickly through the morning. many places will be dry and sunny, england and wales, eastern scotland, but then western scotland, lots of northern ireland will turn windy and cloudy and wetter later in the day. the temperatures around the mid teens in the north—west, closer to the low 20s and the mid 20s in the south—east. now, that band of cloud and rain across the north—west moves its way south—eastwards during monday night, tending to fizzle out though as it reaches parts of england and wales, just a few showers along it. but with more cloud cover generally, i think it should be a little less chilly with temperatures in double figures for most. now, as we move into tuesday, we've got high pressure with us once again. this area of cloud associated with that weather front will straddle central areas and push its way south—eastwards through the day, so i think england and wales could see more cloud around generally, a bit more sunshine though for scotland and northern ireland, but slightly fresher air mass here with temperatures into the low to mid teens.

but again, despite the cloud across england and wales, the air is quite warm here, so still 20 to 25 or 26 degrees will be the high. high pressure still with us on into wednesday, we've got this feature which will bring thicker cloud, perhaps some patchy rain to northern ireland and in towards central and western scotland, but to the north of it, dry, little bit cooler with some sunshine to the south of it, plenty of sunshine for england and wales and, again, another warm day, 25 or 26 will be the high, closer to the mid teens in the north. but that fresher air in the north gets pushed away northwards as high pressure changes its position, moves to the east of the uk and starts to draw up this warm southerly wind from the near continent. that will drive the warmth northwards into scotland and northern ireland as we reach the end of the week, and it will be very warm for england and wales with plenty of sunshine.

this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. i'm aaron safir. reporter: are you going to resign, mrcummings? the uk prime minister boris johnson stands by his chief advisor, rejecting calls for him to resign over allegedly breaking coronavirus lockdown rules. i believe that in every respect, he has acted responsibly, and legally, and with integrity. in hong kong, protests against beijing's new proposed security laws turn ugly, more than 100 people are arrested. brazil's prime minister continues to dismiss warnings over social distancing as the number of cases