the funeral of george floyd, whose killing by us police triggered anti—racism protests around the world has taken place in houston, texas. the eulogy was delivred by the civil rights leader al sharpton who made an impassioned plea for police reform and racialjustice. the un has issued a stark warning that food shortages and hunger in north korea are being made worse by coronavirus measures, and the five month closure of the border with china. the human rights investigation also says the number of homeless people — including street children is increasing. the russian capital has loosened it's lockdown measures, even though coronavirus infections continues to rise rapidly. in the past week moscow has seen around two thousand new cases — but the strict permit system is being brought to an end so that people can move around freely. now on bbc news...hardtalk.

welcome to hartog. i'm stephen sackur. will the wave of anger and protests a nd sackur. will the wave of anger and protests and this went to cross america since the killing of george floyd in minneapolis have a lasting impact on race relations. —— hard talk. surely americans will be skeptical. systemic racism and discriminatory policing has survived all previous efforts to deliver on the promise of equality and justice for all. my guest today is the historian and veteran civil rights campaigner mary frances berry. what will it take to engineer genuine change?

mary frances berry, welcome to hard talk. thank you forjoining me from new orleans. thank you very much for having me. where having beautiful weather here. there is a bit of a hurricane through your window. let us hurricane through your window. let us focus on the storms that have been sweeping across america in recent days. the whole world has been watching the killing of george floyd in minneapolis. you have in historians i:e.. does all of this feel different to you from previous cases of the killing and police detention of unarmed black man? now, what's different about this one, we had video before when eric garner was chokehold in new york city. and saidi was chokehold in new york city. and said i can't breathe. and that was just to remind everybody, that was

six years ago. so we had video then. in earlier protest before that time on most occasions and earlier murders of unarmed black people, we didn't have video. what happened this time i think, makes a different. it's the virus, and they stay at home orders that have locked us stay at home orders that have locked us infor stay at home orders that have locked us in for months now. with a lotta people anxious to get out and the fa ct people anxious to get out and the fact that students, college students, university and many people who have been working aren't working. schools were online and now oui’ working. schools were online and now our semesters working. schools were online and now oui’ semesters are over. working. schools were online and now our semesters are over. and so there are people who are engaged and who know about this and watch this and who may have supported doing something about police reform before but now they have the energy, the time, the response to the virus sort

of put some tinder there. and the discontent with trump. which has been visceral since the 2016 election. so if you throw all that together you can see that there is a difference. so let us start with your characterisation of who has come out onto the street in terms of the protest, the public anger in the last ten days or more. barack 0bama has said that what he has seen is a far more representative cross—section of america out on the streets this time then he has seen before. including he says, going all the way back to the civil rights campaigns of the 1960s. do you see that broader cross—section of people at work right now? obviously. anyone who looks at the crowds can see the difference. lots of young white

people who are involved in it. and older ones too. people who are motivated to get out here and do something about these issues. it all started in a sense, before the shootings occurred with the election of trump. we have been in a state of continuous sort of, revolt, if i may put it that way and resistant since he became president. some people still can't believe that he became president. so we've in been in a continuous state. there's been one thing after the other about trump. so we had revolution on the first day when he was trying to get inaugurated we had marches and protests a nd inaugurated we had marches and protests and big ones, so on. bigger than the people who came out for the inauguration. so this continuous attitude, resistance and then you have the virus and then you have the stadium and then you have all the couege stadium and then you have all the college students across racial lines

who are out. the young people and the older people withoutjobs and you put that mix together, you can see the people. during the civil rights movements in the 1960s there we re rights movements in the 1960s there were white people who were involved in the movement. some of them very courageous people will stop some of whom got shot. viola lose i can't recall the names but i won't call all of them here. engaged in these protest. with the numbers were smaller. what strikes me though is that you already and this it interview have used the words resista nce interview have used the words resistance and protest throughout, what you have it referred to is riots and rioting and riot tours. but all around the world we have seen the pictures from numerous american cities where young people in particular have been engaged in violence as well as expressions of protest or some are wondering for you, and you referred to your own background in the us civil rights commission, your long—time record as a campaigner, whether you are deeply

disappointed by the degree to which there has been violence. i'll limited, mixed in with the widespread protest. limited, mixed in with the widespread protestlj limited, mixed in with the widespread protest. i wouldn't describe my reaction as a disappointment. i would say that i expected some of this kind of violence. for many reasons. and every protest that has ta ken violence. for many reasons. and every protest that has taken place there have been some people who have engaged in violence. even going all the way back to the civil rights movement there were some people who didn't accept nonviolence. and there are groups of people who want to create violence. if you go all the way back to the 1990 protests against wto in seattle and against globalism, there were anti—fascists or there were people on the left who broke things and rioted in the streets and. and they've been involved somehow and some of these others. and there are people that just loot because they have the

opportunity to loot. i think that what has been pleasing to me is one, the small numbers of people who are engaged in that kind of behavior. they are so overwhelmed by the number of people who are protesting and have their eyes distinctly on the prize of doing something about police reform and the underlying causes of continued racism. in our country. so what do you say to those young people both black—and—white who we've seen who are throwing bottles at the police, who are trashing stores, sometimes taking goods from within stores. spraying graffiti across towns and cities. what do you say to them? i would not say anything to them until i understood in each case why they we re understood in each case why they were doing it. there may be some people who are just so angry that they're doing it. then there may be others who are criminal. they are in

fa ct, others who are criminal. they are in fact, in some cases destroying the property of black businesspeople and the like. who in minneapolis i saw patrolling themselves to protect their own businesses. what i would say is, that this whole series of protests were set off by the arsonists, as it were, which was a police officer who put his knee on mr floyd's neck. and killed him. and so therefore, and the other officers who stood around to and any repercussions from that that go on, some of them may be unfortunate and a lot of them a very positive, have to be traced back to that episode. let me talk to you, and you are a civil rights campaigner and your champion a cause of black people for a very long time how important is it to you that right now the campaign,

whether it be black lives matter or the wider civil rights campaign reaches out to middle america. because it strikes me that over many yea rs because it strikes me that over many years middle americans who may not like what they see of the brutality at times and the militarization of police forces who work in black communities, they may not like it but they somehow manage to look away or ignore it. you need to reach those people. how important is it that you have a strategy for reaching white people? that you have a strategy for reaching white people ?|j that you have a strategy for reaching white people? i think there isa reaching white people? i think there is a strategy for reaching them. i think the strategy is in fact working. because many of them i've seen people in the protest where i am. who've never protested anything before and who come from the suburbs, older white people, middle—aged white people. who are out because they are so offended by

the latency of what has been happening. and they see that and —— blatant sea. they support law and order and they support being police protect them and all that but they simply can't wrap their minds around how we can have these obvious violations occur. and not do anything about them. anti—polls show that a majority by a wide majority, americans are in favour of doing something about this. no matter where they live. you know what, the polls are interesting. you're absolutely right. the clear majority of americans report that they oppose the police practices that were epitomized by what happened in minneapolis. they support the right to peaceful prospect did not protests but also, i'm looking at one pull recently that says 79% of americans polled say that the property damage caused by some demonstrators does in their view

undermine the original intent of the protesters ca m pa ig n after undermine the original intent of the protesters campaign after george floyd's death. that must be worrying. it's worrying in the sense that even though you can trace the causes back to the episode where he was killed, that in fact you want more people to support the cause. so that you have a chance this time. which we've never had in any of these riots. there have been reports or protests, there been report after report after reports commissions, you can name all the reports. the report on police practices when 0bama was president. which was never followed through on. the guy who chaired it said all he did was gather dust. and you never really get a handle on these problems. and never do anything about the underlying causes. which is a much more difficult problem. dealing strictly with the police. i hope now we can get something done. the

looting of the burning of the violence doesn't undermine that. here's an interesting question that may be a challenge for you, are you ready to metaphorically embrace people you might never have dreamed ofa people you might never have dreamed of a pricing before in terms of —— and pricing. i'm thinking for example mitt romney. long—time republican politician and senator who walked in one of the black lives matters protest marches just last weekend. and professed himself to be a supporter of black lives matter. some black people will say hang on a minute, that is ridiculous. this is pure hypocrisy, we are not ready to work with people like mitt romney. what do you say? i say that i knew mitt romney father george when i was at the university of michigan he was governor. during the detroit riots in 1967 governor. during the detroit riots in1967 and governor. during the detroit riots in 1967 and when he was secretary of

hud during the nixon administration. he was a very wonderful, moderate republican and a man with a high ethics and when his son came on the scene i kept hoping he was getting beat like his father. maybe as time goes on he is becoming more like him. if so that's great. let me get to donald trump. you've referred to him already. and we all know it now, over the last couple of weeks has been tweeting like crazy. some of those tweets have stuck in peoples minds. the one i'm looking at right now is, any difficulty, he's talking about what happens in the street and we will assume control when the looting starts the shooting starts. he talked repeatedly about dominating the streets. he told governors if you don't dominate you are wasting your time. they are going to run over you. you are going to look likejerks. going to run over you. you are going to look like jerks. these the united states. do you believe that donald

trump and his approach to this has been fundamentally different from every other president of your lifetime? no, he hasn't been fundamentally different. he's mostly inarticulate. and mostly clumsy and what he says and what he does which creates problems for him. so you don't by generaljames madison is claim, accusation i guess you could call it about donald trump which he wrote just the other day, donald trump is the first president in my lifetime who doesn't try to unite the american people, he doesn't even pretend to try. he tries to divide us. you're saying that that's misguided to misunderstand what has been happening in america?” misguided to misunderstand what has been happening in america? i say that we are divided and we've been divided at more polarisation since trump was elected in 2016. and when he did not get a majority of the popular vote. and was elected only

by the electoral college. we have been divided. and in any poll he is likely to be on the losing end because most people never voted for him in the first place. and never supported him. and aren't planning to anytime soon. as for general matters, i never make statements about something never happened before. and this one is the first one. there have been other presidents historically, who have done things that we regarded as unconstitutional. when abra ham lincoln took measures to repress the south at the beginning of the civil war. there is a book called, about the constitutional invasions that he made, several liberties and all sorts of things, there've been presidents who've done these things. i think that trump, the way he does it, a lot of what trump does, his problem is how he does it, what he says about it, his timing on

everything. which creates a problem for him. but i understand that he and general mattis did not get along. that is true. it's believed that particular spot aside and focus on what now. it's interesting to me that you have publicly supported the campaign to end this is the words, do you find police forces in cities across america, particularly those who what you would regard as very poured records when it comes to upholding civil rights. for black communities. we've already seen in minneapolis the council there, the city council has overwhelmingly voted to dismantle the city police force. from california to new york we've had other senior politician saying that financing for the police should be cut. is this really going to fight with the american public? because donald trump is simply going to say this is a licence for anarchy, for a total breakdown in law and order. i think it is

perfectly reasonable to say that the police have become militarized in the united states. ever since johnson and nixon administrations, when they were given all kinds of military equipment and which they are training seem to be as if they we re are training seem to be as if they were an occupying force rather than officer friendly. who's were an occupying force rather than officerfriendly. who's here to help you. and that's unfortunate. at more and more resources have gone into that. professor... if we don't get at the underlying causes of cries whenever gena stops crying. so i believe in giving it to community programmes and that will help us in maintaining law and order. and we will reform the police and have a better police force. forgive my attempt at a very rude interruption, iam mindful attempt at a very rude interruption, i am mindful that i am speaking to you as a renowned civil rights campaignerand you as a renowned civil rights campaigner and has during an academic. how do you think your words are going to go down, we

talked about before, white suburban communities across america. where they are going to hear people like you calling for the dismantling of police forces. complete... in the first place are, i did not call for the dismantling of police forces. i called for and what the movement calls for and it's unfortunate that they label that they use is misinterpreted at a explain. and my own analysis shows that when something is hard to explain it you probably aren't going to get it. ok? soi probably aren't going to get it. ok? so i understand that. but i think it's perfectly reasonable to talk about reforming the police, reasonable to talk about not funding military equipment for the police, it's perfectly reasonable to talk about taking some of the funding and using it for community programmes where people even work with the police. so a shift in funding for some of these things. which won't harm law and order and which might improve infant improve it if people

understood that i don't think they would be irritated. but they will be irritated because they are opposed to the label itself. which sounds like you're going to dismantle the police force which is not at all what i am far. and i don't think most of the people who say that are for it. ijust wonder if most of the people who say that are for it. i just wonder if you are mindful of what happened in minneapolis when the mayor who is regarded by many as a pretty progressive liberal guy, he said that he could not in all good conscience support the abolition of the police department. which the council has been pushing for.” agree with the mayor. he should not abolish the police force. no one should abolish the police force and any place in the country. we need the police force to maintain order and to suppress terminal behavior. yes. the point i'm trying to make is, hundreds of black lives matter is, hundreds of black lives matter is campaigners around him at the time at this public forum booed him and didn't want to listen to him and ultimately he basically had to end

his speech. it seems to me there is going to be a real pressure point in the next few weeks where the more radical elements within the campaign are not going to be satisfied with anything short of very radical measures. measures which may frighten, if that's the right word or be very difficult for other elements in the liberal coalition to accept. the experience and the history shows when you have radical elements who called for things that are radical, which are good to happen, it sometimes pushes the middle to enact reforms that are radical but they at least will make some kind of positive change. that's the history of it. two quick thoughts before we end, one is about the systemic discrimination. we know still exists in america. you've been campaigning for 50 years but during those 50 years you haven't managed to change things in terms of the disproportionate imprisonment of

black men in the penal system of the united states. unemployment much higherfor black united states. unemployment much higher for black people, united states. unemployment much higherfor black people, a united states. unemployment much higher for black people, a whole raft of measures by which black americans still see. that in many ways their existence as second compared to their white brothers and sisters. as i can change, do you believe any time soon? some are talking of a tipping point. do you have any faith that systemic discrimination is going to change? systemic discrimination which now we call white supremacy in the united states, the young people call it that and it's a history. will not go away unless we understand that politics by itself won't do it. voting is very important but we've been voting for years. now. resistance, protest, litigation, all those things added to politics. can make some change. and we have said

made some change over the years. we all say the glass as file and its half empty. we can continue to make some. but we are not going to make total change unless we continue to resist and show some resistance to what goes on. final thought, which is about politics, you framed it to say look, don'tjust get obsessed with politics it's about much more than that. america this november faces a fundamental choice, you even told me what you think of donald trump. what i'm interested to hear is what you think ofjoe biden. there are many who worry thatjoe biden the democratic candidate for president cannot and will not be an agent for meaningful change because of his own record when it comes to race issues. what are you as an historian, what you stated that? we have a fundamental problem. we have two parties democratic, republican. most of the officials in the cities

where the police abuse has taken place and people have been murdered are controlled by democrats. the merits of a democrat, minneapolis city council and they been democrats for yea rs city council and they been democrats for years and all those cities. in fa ct for years and all those cities. in fact they seem not to have made the changes that need to be made. and joe biden has historically on race issues, most of the time not been very brave or courageous. in fact on some things my admission that have undermined black people. like supported and the like. i don't think biden will be —— i do think joe biden will be more pleasant. he he ought to win given the circumstances, if he doesn't it will be really ironic. and it will be more peaceful and pleasant in the country. but i don't expect any great change on the issues of race and white supremacy in the country.

mary frances berry it has been a very pleasure to talk to you. thanks for joining very pleasure to talk to you. thanks forjoining me. all right, love hard talk. we love hearing that thank you very much indeed. hello there. we'll take a look at the uk unsettled weather picture in just a moment, but first of all, one place that has seen some very high temperatures over the last 2a hours is the arctic circle, where temperatures reached 30 celsius on tuesday. amazing to think temperatures can get that high that far north, but they do from time to time. that, though, could be a newjune record for that particular area. looking at our weather picture, it is unsettled. we saw rain gathering across the northwest

of the uk yesterday, and that was associated with an area of low pressure, and that low pressure is moving right over the heart of the united kingdom for today. 0ften cloudy with spells of rain that could be lengthy and heavy at times. some of the heaviest bursts of rain in the west. wales and north—west england. there will be some areas that don't see much rain. but i think they're be the lucky few. for most of us very wet with temperatures between 1a and 18. for most of us. once the rain has moved south, this particular area of low pressure will deepen and move back and influence our weather for six days. we have rain moving into england and wales. on thursday. some of the heaviest rain could be in north—east england.

it could turn very wet here for a time. and increasingly as we go through the next few days, when the rain does come, it will become heavy. thursday is a windier day and will feel more humid as well. for friday, we have got further bands of rain pushing north. probably the heaviest coming into the south. a chance of thundery down pours and may see some localised flooding. the less rainy weather in the north—west. that continues into the weekend. saturday, is a day of sunshine and heavy thundery showers. the showers could be intense and the he heaviest in wales and south—west england. humid and highs up to 24. but staying unsettled.

this is bbc news. i'm mike embley, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. the funeral of african—american george floyd — whose death in police custody caused global outrage — hears impassioned pleas for racial justice. until we know the price for black life, is the same as the price for white life, we're going to keep coming back to these situations over and over again. president trump provokes criticism by accusing an elderly protester who was injured by the police of being an extremist provocateur. demonstrators demand the removal of a statue of cecil rhodes, one of the most controversial figures in the story of the british empire. the russian capital loosens its lockdown measures

even though thousands of new cases are being