an obama programme preventing the deportation of people who entered the us illegally as children. more than 500,000 migrants will be able to obtain renewable work permits in order to regularise their status. a major cyber attack is under way against australia, targeting government, industry and political parties. prime minister scott morrison says a sophisticated state—based actor is behind the attack, but didn't say which country was responsible. mr morrison says the intrusions, which have hit business and health institutions, had been intensifying in recent months. thousands of medical staff across the world have staged protests, calling for improvement in the health system in the wake of the coronavirus crisis. in tunisia, only emergency services were operating in public hospitals across the country as part of strike action. now on bbc news, hardtalk.

welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. president trump is in trouble. coronavirus has plunged the us economy into recession, the killing of george floyd has inflamed racial tensions and mr trump's poll ratings have slumped. the democrats sense a historic opportunity, but are they capable of seizing it? my guest today is democratic party congressman jim mcgovern. is it enough for his party to be not trump? congressman jim mcgovern in worcester, massachusetts, welcome to hardtalk. happy to be with you.

from the outside, congressman, the united states looks like a country that is divided in on itself, that is almost at war with itself. does it feel that way to you? well, i don't ever recall a time where our country has been more polarised, and i think the current occupant of the white house is responsible for much of that polarisation and much of the chaos and the uncertainty that exists here. and so, i'm deeply troubled by it and i'm hoping that the next election will produce a better result and we can get back to healing our country and actually solving some of the problems that we need to confront. but in a sense, that sense of instability that so many americans feel right now — a concern about where the country is and where it might be going — doesn't that make it incumbent

upon democrats to be politically moderate and you, if i may say so, are known as a man of the radical left inside the democratic party. maybe this is not your time? i don't consider myself radical, by any means. i think the views that i have embraced are the views that most of my constituents and most of the country embraces. i mean, look, you know, i want to invest in people. i want to invest in rebuilding our infrastructure, our transportation systems. all the polls i see show a majority of americans want that. the majority of americans actually favour those protesting in the streets in the aftermath of the murder of george floyd. i think the majority of people in this country want to find a way to deal with the systemic racism that has been part of this country for so long. we want better access to healthcare. we want to invest in our schools, make sure we have quality

education for everybody. i mean, those aren't radical ideas. i think those are ideas, that, quite frankly, that enjoy the support of the mainstream. i mean, i have been elected time and time again. i don't think i would've been if my views were out of touch. you certainly have been elected — for more than two decades! but i dare say most americans might call worcester, massachusetts a pretty liberal sort of town. the question i'm asking, really, is whether fellow democrats on your side of the party — whether it is wise for them right now, in the wake of the killing of george floyd by the police in minneapolis, whether it is wise to be talking about dismantling and defunding police forces across the country. is that really going to win you the support of middle america? yeah, well, look, ithink defunding the police means many different things to many different people. i mean, if you have been watching the commentary, people interpret

that to mean different things. look, i think we need to reimagine the role of our police in our society. i mea, there are some things, quite frankly, that police don't need to deal with, that we should be investing in other agencies to deal with. i mean, issues regarding truancy — why should that be a police matter? mental health issues — we ought to be supporting our healthcare institutions in a more meaningful way to do with that. —— healthcare institutions in a more meaningful way to deal with that. not everything needs a police response. and then there the issue of systemic racism that, unfortunately, has been part of much of law enforcement in this country. right, but congressman... i mean, you saw what happened to george floyd. i mean, he was — he was, you know, murdered by a police officer while three other police officers observed. i mean, that is absolutely wrong and, quite frankly, if george floyd looked like me, he would still be alive today, and that is a real problem. i sense your passion. i know this is an issue you care

about a very great deal but nonetheless, when you tweet out, as you did the other day, messages — simple messages like quote, "we need to demilitarise our police now"... we do! yeah, are you not in danger of playing into the hands of donald trump and his fellow senior republicans, who say that they represent the forces of, quote, "law and order" because you are implying that the current police forces across america are, in some sense, illegitimate? first of all, i mean, you can maintain law and order without militarising the police. the people, you know, that i represent and the people of this country should not be treated as enemy combatants. and what i am referring to is the fact that we have a programme with the pentagon that allows the pentagon to pass on, essentially, equipment that is used in war to local police departments. i don't think that is appropriate.

i don't think that that helps ensure law and order. what that does is it creates more fear, it create more chaos and it creates more unrest. so, no — and i don't believe that the majority of people in this country, including a lot of sensible republicans, believe that we should — that the police should be, you know, viewed the same way we view the military, who fight wars! so, congressman, remind me — did president barack 0bama and his vice—president joe biden get rid of all of this, what you call ‘military equipment‘, at the hands of the police? no, they didn't, and i was one of only a handful that voted against the programme that allows the military to share their equipment with our local police. but, no. i mean, i'm not here to say that everything that barack 0bama and joe biden did was perfect, but i think they helped move us

in the right direction in terms of race relations. i don't think we, you know, we achieved as much as we all wanted, but at least i think most people in this country believe that in the face of police brutality, when 0bama was president, that we had a president who was actually empathetic, who actually wanted to solve the problem, who actually had a heart and wanted to deal with some of these issues so they don't happen again. but, congressman, what you havejust said about 0bama and joe biden and where you sit on the issue, it brings me back to my opening question about whether your brand of — i called it radical, but you disputed it — your brand of, let's say, more radical approaches to things like policing is really what the democratic party needs going into the presidential campaign, because joe biden clearly thinks not. he said to cbs news just the other day "i do not support defunding the police". he has come forward with a series of reforms, but nothing

like as radical as you want. well, first of all, i'm not saying we should defund the police and eliminate, you know, you know, any type of police presence in our country. and many people who are saying defund the police — and again, that's not my phrase, that is the phrase that some others have used — i prefer the phrase reimagining the role of our police. look, we are at the point where it is no longer enough to simply say "we need some reforms" or "isn't this terrible?" or "what a tragedy" or "we have to address the issue of systemic racism" and then we never do. so the issue right now for people in the country is as follows. we can either do what we have done in the past and express our outrage and then move on, or we can do something a little bit different here, and that is not only express our outrage but demand that real reforms be put into place so we don't see more killings of people like george floyd.

and that's the choice. and so, yeah, i want — we all want law and order but some of us have different opinions of what law and order means. the president of the united states, when he talks about law and order, you know, he uses, you know, security forces to gas peaceful protesters in front of the white house so he can do a photo op. well, that is not my opinion of law and order. that's my view of abuse of power, and i think the majority of people in this country are with me on that. congressman, i know you're gonna take your hits at donald trump and i will not stop you doing it, but i'm more interested in what you think aboutjoe biden. i know what you think about donald trump. butjoe biden, let us not forget, is the presidential candidate of your party. you're going to encourage your constituents to vote for him in november and, yet, joe biden is also a man with a record on issues concerning race, which includes support for a 1994 crime bill which many african—america ns absolutely hate.

they say it was responsible for the disproportionate locking up of hundreds of thousands of young black males. joe biden used language about "predators on our streets" — which, again, many civil rights campaigner thought was utterly unacceptable. kamala harris accused him of working with racist senators. he opposed the busing programme which was so important to the civil rights movement. and you're going to tell your african—american constituents that they must vote forjoe biden? well, i was not in congress in 1994 when the crime bill passed but a large proportion of the congressional black caucus back then supported the crime bill — not because of the reasons that you just mentioned, but because it included a ban on assault weapons. we have a problem in the united states of america, where we have weapons of war that are easily attainable. that was part of it. yeah, was the crime bill flawed? yes, it was. and joe biden and others —

bill clinton and others — have admitted that it was flawed and have conceded that it disproportionately, negatively impacted african—americans in the country. i mean, i think one of the true tests of leadership is the ability of somebody to admit that they are wrong and to change and to evolve and to take the evidence and reformulate an opinion. i don't want somebody who can never, ever admit a mistake. the bottom line is, yeah, i think the crime bill was very problematic — i wasn't around then — but it was very, very problematic. and i think there are some other things thatjoe biden may have said or done in his long career that i certainly take issue with but, look, elections are about choices. and the choice that people have in this election isjoe biden, who i think is fundamentally a decent human being, who actually cares about the issues that are confronting this country right now, and somebody like donald trump, who i don't think is a decent human being.

congressman... he has lowered our politics to a point, quite frankly, that makes me quite sad. —— that makes me quite sad that this is the current reality in the united states. congressman, there is another choice that people will have in november and that is to not vote at all, and many people say that what really matters to the democratic party is not convincing swing voters who are torn between voting democrat and republican to go democrat, because there are not so many of those in the current polarised environment. what is really important to the democratic party is getting to the polls so many young people, particularly, and young african—american people specifically, who look atjoe biden and think, "you know what? this guy's record does not make me think i really want to go to the polls at all." that could be your party's problem because every vote will count. well, every vote absolutely will count and it will be tragic if people did not show up to the polls. i believe they will. i believe that, not only our base,

but i believe that there are people, sensible people all over the country, who are outraged by what is happening right now in the united states, that are horrified by donald trump and many, like myself, think he is unfit to serve as president of the united states. so, look, you know, there is enough out there to motivate people, notjust to motivate people, but to get people to show up to vote like they have never done before. i mean, the stakes are too high. we are — if donald trump gets re—elected, we are moving closer and closer to the type of authoritarian regimes that the president seems so enamoured with. i don't want to go in that direction. i value the uniqueness of the united states. i value ourfreedoms. i value our checks and balances. and i value a president who actually obeys the constitution and upholds the standards of our laws. we don't have that right now and, so, i think, i really do believe

that you are going to see a record turnout in november and you will see people who will get out there and vote forjoe biden and whoever he picks as his vice—president. i have been looking at the latest batch of opinion polls pretty carefully, and as you will know, the national trending averages right now is forjoe biden is up about eight points on donald trump. if you dig deeper into the figures, you see that the large number of people who are saying at the moment they will support biden are doing it simply because they do not like and will not and could not contemplate four more years of donald trump. but biden‘s own negatives are actually surprisingly high. we are looking at two men in this race who have very high negative numbers. come november, all of the survey evidence suggests that republicans are more determined to go out and vote than democrats. joe biden still represents something of a risk for your party. look, i thinkjoe biden is

a fundamentally decent human being. that's not the question. i want to bring some decency back to the white house. i think the majority of americans want decency brought back to the white house. and by the way, when i am out and about talking to people, people are energised to get out there and to vote for a different kind of president. you know, we can talk about polls all we want but i think we're going to have a record turnout in november, and i think people are going to show up to reclaim this country. you, as i recall, were a supporter of elizabeth warren, notjoe biden, in the primary season. many other young democrats supported bernie sanders, and eight progressive groups inside the party, many of them representing young people — justice democrats, alliance for youth action, student democratic party action, they have put out a statement saying, quote — and this is directly

tojoe biden, "it is clear you are unable to win the majority of votes for the vast majority of voters under a5. you need to have more young people enthusiastically supporting and campaigning with you if you're going to defeat trump. and messaging around, quote, "a return to normalcy does not and will not earn the support and trust of voters of our generation." what do you make of that? first of all, one of the things this covid—i9 pandemic has shown is there are great inequities and inequalities in the american system. and so when people say they want to return to normal, i don't want to return to normal. i think most people don't want to return to normal. we want to do better than normal and i thinkjoe biden is committed to that as well. yeah, you know, as the nominee, he has to be able to win the support of all of those who challenged him for the nomination. and i believe he is working on doing that.

where, where do you seejoe biden putting out messages and a platform which really does suggest he wants to change america in the way that you have just indicated you want to see a change? where, for example, is his clear commitment, notjust in words, but in deeds to reduce gun deaths by 50%, which is what these young democrats say must happen. they want to see free college tuition as bernie sanders promised it. they want to see a swingeing super tax on america's wealthiest people. isjoe biden going to deliver any of that? well, you know what? we will have to wait and see. here's the deal, as somebody who supported elizabeth warren very proudly, as somebody who you referred to in the beginning as having radically liberal ideas, look, i don't agree withjoe biden on everything, he doesn't agree with me on everything, but i have a better chance to move policies in the direction that i think are good for this country

withjoe biden as president as opposed to donald trump. right, you're talking a lot about values and about healing america, i want to ask you one very specific thing about the democratic party right now which is the pick thatjoe biden is going to make for vice president. a lot of people are saying that he has already committed it to being a woman. a lot of people are saying that it needs to be a black woman, and names have been put forward from kamala harris, to susan rice, to val demings, to the atlanta mayor keisha lance bottoms — all sorts of names out there. some would say, that smacks of a very sort of mechanistic notion of what works in politics. you put a black woman into the vice presidential slot and you therefore reach out to a whole new raft of voters and have new appeal. do you believe it works as simply as that? look, i believe we need to stop breaking glass ceilings. we've never had a woman as president of united states in this country.

you know, we've never had a woman as the vice president in this country. you know, i would actually welcome the fact thatjoe biden is willing to shake things up and break glass ceilings, and to make a show that it isn't unusual when we have women running for the highest office in the land. quiet frankly, i think it is shameful that the united states — it has been so difficult for the united states for women to get elected to president or vice president. so, i welcome his choice. i don't know who he's going to choose but i think it would be... i'm glad he is committed to a woman, i hope it is an african—american woman but you will see — that's his decision. i have just read a survey by politico, the online political

site, of 50 different republican party officials and managers across a whole raft of states, and they say they feel on what they see on the ground, more confident than what they felt in 2016 — that donald trump is going to win the november election? i'm glad that they are confident, i hope they are overconfident. look, the trump strategists are going to try and calm their nervous base by telling people that everything is great. i just don't sense that. by the way, it is not just in massachusetts, it is also when i travel around the country and when i talk to my colleagues from all around the country. they sense a revulsion amongst their constituents in regards to the way this president has behaved and how he has demeaned his office. enough — i mean people are sick of this. they want a change. joe biden may not be everything

i want, he may not be everything that bernie sanders‘ supporters want or thejustice democrats want. but you know what, he is somebody we can work with. and we may not get everything we want but if we can push this country in a more progressive direction, and a more compassionate direction rather than a direction where we can solve problems rather than create them, i think that is a good thing. a final thought, and it comes back to this image of how america is seen in the world, you talk of wanting change, and we have discussed whether biden is going to deliver domestic change, but what about on the international scene? you‘re a guy who spends a lot of time working on international human rights issues, do you see any sign thatjoe biden, president biden if he becomes that, would actually significantly change us policy on a whole series of important issues? for example, china, support for israel and everything the israeli government does. also the use of drones to kill, quote—unquote, terrorists around the world.

if you look at biden‘s positions, they don‘t suggest we will see much change. i think one of the things that i look forward to whenjoe biden is president is that we will actually once again start talking to our allies around the world, start engaging and listening to them. that we don‘t withdraw from every international agreement that we‘ve ever negotiated. for example, that we re—enter the paris climate accord, that we respect the international criminal court, that human rights is something that we actually bring up in the face of authoritarian dictatorships around the world. crosstalk. sorry for interrupting, i know you want to see all of these things but my question repeatedly is, will biden deliver them for you if he wins the white house? i believe he will, i believe we will move in a direction where once again human rights are a major centrepiece

of us foreign policy. and by the way, in the trump administration, we never hear or use the words ‘human rights‘. maybe it is an afterthought at best. but the bottom line is that, you know, somebody who chairs the human rights commission in congress, i can tell you that there are human rights defenders all around the world who are heartsick over this administration‘s backing away from raising issues of human rights, not only with china but with saudi arabia. i mean, with bahrain, i can go right down the list of countries... russia. you know, i mean we will do much better withjoe biden. the world will welcome a joe biden presidency, and, quite frankly, i think our image around the world will improve with biden in the white house. well, five months to go until november so at the moment we must wait and see. i thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. my pleasure, great to be with you.

hello there. well, thursday turned out to be a particularly soggy day across england and wales, with an area of persistent rain. the radar picture on thursday shows just how wet it was across england and wales. the heaviest rain really working into southern wales, where we picked up 50 millimetres of rain through the day in st athan, and down on the south coast. take a look at this weather watcher picture. this is in fact a waterspout. you can see a little bit of sprayjust being whipped up off the sea there. so we had all kinds of weather around on thursday,

and that same area of low pressure remains with us over the next few hours. so, we have got more rain to come — wales, south—west england. the rain moving back into central, southern england, the south—west midlands. wet weather moves across northern ireland, and there will be some rain for a time in northern england and southern scotland as well. so, "rain at times" probably best sums up things. as we head into friday, though, our low pressure is going to be tending to ease away quite quickly north—westwards, with the rain then getting shoved northwards. so most of us have a cloudy star to the day. rain across wales, the midlands, moving into northern england, where it will turn heavy and thundery through the afternoon. and some of those storms will make their way into southern scotland. a few showers further north in northern ireland as well, it will feel a little bit breezier, a little bit fresher across the far south of england, as brighter skies work in late in the day. then, overnight the last of that rain clears northwards. across the far north of scotland will get some rain for a time. working across shetland, for example, friday night. another mild night, temperatures staying into double figures. now, the weekend we do have

another weather system to push through, so we will get more rain at times, but actually, it‘s not a bad start to the weekend. you will notice, though, the weather turning a little bit windier at times. and through the weekend, it‘s certainly going to turn a good dealfresher as well. now, saturday starts off on a bright note. most of us having a dry start to the day, with some sunshine. however, the cloud and rain will fairly quickly spread into northern ireland through the afternoon. ahead of that rain, bands temperatures into the low 20s, with sunny spells widely across scotland, england and wales. late in the day, we will start to see rain arriving across wales, and western england, western scotland, too. that rain then moves eastwards overnight. still loitering across scotland as we head into sunday morning, but clearing through. then followed by sunshine and heavy showers. these showers could be thundery for scotland and for northern ireland. but a fresher feel the weather. sunday‘s top temperature around about 22. that‘s your forecast.

this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. i‘m david eades. a massive recovery fund to bring europe back to life, but can eu leaders overcome bitter divisions over the 750 billion euro spending plan for struggling member states. australia‘s prime minister says his country is being targeted in a major cyber attack. from court decisions to disgruntled former colleagues, we examine a week of political setbacks for president trump. and we return to the so—called wuhan of the west, to find out