the headlines: america's leading infectious disease expert has warned of a disturbing surge in covid—19 cases in parts of the country. anthony fauci told congress that the next two weeks would be critical to stop more infections in states such as florida, texas and arizona. the british prime minister, boris johnson, has announced a significant easing of coronavirus restrictions in england. restaurants and pubs can reopen injuly and the government has relaxed its 2—metre rule. mrjohnson said he would take full responsibility if the relaxation of measures backfired. the fbi says bubba wallace was not the victim of racism after a noose was found in his nascar team's garage. the agency said what had been assumed to be a noose was actually the garage door‘s pull rope and had been hanging like that since last october.

now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. since george floyd died with a white police officer's knee on his neck in minneapolis, new conversations about racism and discrimination have begun across the world. it's notjust about policing, it's about all aspects of life. my guest today is andre leon talley, who was creative director of american vogue magazine at a time when the fashion industry was almost completely devoid of senior black figures. does fashion still have a problem with race?

andre leon talley in new york, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. you very recently published a memoir, a pretty extraordinary book. it had a very interesting title, the chiffon trenches, which suggests both elegance and beauty, but also a sense of warfare. do you feel you've been fighting some sort of a battle throughout your life? i certainly have. that is an apt description of the title. it was a title i made up years ago before i even wrote the book, i made up the title for my first memoir, never used it. i fought many battles, many battles, i've been in trenches all my life. as an american, african—american black man, a descendent of the enslaved people who were brought to this country a01 years ago, my daily existence is an uphill battle of survival. every black man has to wake up

and realise that he is black in a country that promises him all the equality, equal justice for everyone, and it's not. and so, therefore, my life is a constant survival in the trenches. i get knocked down, i get up, i get shot down, i get up. not only in my personal life, but my professional life as well. and in my professional life, when i was in paris, in new york and all of that. do you think you would have said that very same thing 30 years ago? what was 30 years ago, we're 2020 — what was 30 years ago? well, i'm just saying, you know, in your career... oh, yes, iwould have said that, yes. i would have said that. i didn't write a book 30 years ago, but i would have said that, for sure. i always felt that, even as a teenager, growing up in the segregated south, going to segregated schools, going to college, i always felt that and i always felt that i had to be

smarter than the counterpoint that was next to me, if he were white, and i had to be smarter and i had to work harder to get to places where i earned my position in the trenches, the chiffon front row of fashion and style. in paris, when i got to paris in 1978, i was in the front row of the couture shows in paris. i dined, and i considered my friends to be some of the great titans of fashion — yves saint laurent, karl lagerfeld, mr valentino, mr valentino, who is still a great friend of mine to this day. i often see him, i'm often invited to his homes in paris and new york and/or switzerland. and so this is what i've always done. if i may, mr talley, i want to come back to the arc of your career and all of your extraordinary experiences in this fashion

business, but before i do that, i just want to pick up on your thoughts about your own childhood, because so many black boys brought up in relatively poor circumstances, as you were, by your grandmother in durham, north carolina, in a small home without any spare money to spend — so many boys in that situation do not escape the confines of their environment, but you did escape, big time. how did you do it? i escaped because i had knowledge. i had knowledge, i had great knowledge. i was very curious, i was the only child, and by the way, it's an assumption that most people, we were not poor, we were not on welfare, we were not in public housing. my grandmother was a domestic maid at a university for 50 years of her life, but we always had money, we never were poor, we had food on the table. my parents also sent money to me,

because my parents were living in dc — i was born in washington. my parents were not divorced when i was very young and they were constantly sending me money, world book encyclopaedias. so the first big gift i ever got for my father was a complete set of leather—bound red world book encyclopaedias. and that was a gift, and he gave me that gift, he selected that gift. my father had a governmentjob, my mother too. so that opened the world to me, and then i was exposed to reading, and i was always creating a world through literature, through books, through magazines, through vogue. so i populated my imagination and i self—made myself, i propelled myself through reading things. especially vogue magazine — i loved french literature, but i was reading it in english. gustave flaubert, i loved balzac. i was sort of a precocious child, but i was reading all the time. i dare say those were rather specialised interests

in your peer group and at school. i didn't go to play basketball or baseball. when others were out, running around playing baseball, basketball, football, i was sitting in my house in a pale pink room, reading. now, there's one other aspect of your childhood that you have been honest about in your memoir, and i believe you rarely, if ever talked about it before, and that was the terrible experience, the traumatic experience of sexual abuse as a young boy. yes, yes. why did you decide it was important to tell the world about that, having kept it inside yourself for so very long? i kept it inside myself until i was 70 years old when i wrote this book. i had never said to anyone that i had been sexually abused. a therapist, a minister, a friend, a brother, anyone. when i was abused very young, and serially abuse by several young men in my neighbourhood that were not strangers, i thought that if i said to my grandmother this had happened to me, that it would

have killed her. i was ashamed, i was ashamed, i knew something had to happen, but ijust kept it bottled up inside of me, and this is simply a part of me that did not overrule my life. this did not...i was not a victim of my sexual abuse, i continued to do what i thought was right in a very conservative home that was based on the structure of going to church every sunday and religion and faith in god, and i thought, "this has happened to me "and it's something you can't talk about." but i thought it would shame my grandmother, it would have killed her. and my grandmother never knew. she died and i never told her. i never told anyone,

i never told my father, my mother. i never told anyone. i never told even my best friends. let's talk about the fashion business, and the way in which you got into it. you worked, i believe, as an intern. you met some extraordinarily influential people who became mentors of yours. you then, in the early 1980s, began an association with anna wintour who's arguably become the most powerful woman in the fashion business. and you and she had a sort of association, a working partnership that lasted many, many years. did you feel, as your career took off, and you became creative director at vogue magazine, did you feel truly accepted in that world? oh, yes, ifelt accepted. i felt accepted. i felt that people were authentic and sincere about who i was. i made great friends who are still my friends today. diane von furstenberg, who's a great friend, designer. betty catroux.

i always had very good, loyal friends. i was accepted because, first of all, they didn't keep me there for my looks, they kept me because i was smart. i was smart, i was absolutely smart. i knew everything there was that could be possibly known about the history of style in europe, in france. but i am also very aware that we're talking about the late ‘70s, the ‘80s and ‘90s, the fashion business was a business, which found it very difficult, it seems, to accept black people in senior positions. there weren't many black models, there were still fewer black senior executives. now, you tell me that you had all these great friends, but were you not aware that there was a systematic discrimination problem in the business that was yours? i was always aware that there was a systemic discrimination problem, but i beg to differ — models became important,

black models in the ‘70s. they became the most important things — they became stars, superstars. but if i may say so, i've been reading around this a little bit. who was one of the first really well—known black models, she was on the cover of vogue — i'm sure you know her well. i know her very well. she has since written, "silence on race, was then "and still is the cost of admission "to the fashion industry's top echelons." people like naomi campbell have said the same thing. if you were aware of that, why didn't you speak out about it? i did not think it was my role to speak out about it. i had earned my place in the world of fashion through my smartness and my knowledge, i had been given a seat at the most important papers, womenswear daily and vogue. as i got ingrained into vogue, i used my monthly column, life with andre, style facts, talley sheet and i tried to advance the cause of diversity

in my monthly work, in my monthly columns. and i think that i consider myself a quiet activist, i don't go around with a foghorn or bullhorn, saying, "let us in, let us in, we're knocking at the door." this was not my role. but mr talley, it's not really so much a question of what your role was, it's just deeply personal, because you found out, for example, that in paris, amongst the catwalk cognoscenti, that there was one senior woman executive who was... she called me queen kong, yes, she did call me queen kong. but this was an incident that i was not going to determine...let me get off the rails of my career. that was one incident. i have had many incidences like that in my life. you had another woman that you regarded as a friend, the designer... she was not a friend, she was not a friend! that girl who called me queen kong... no, no, i'm talking about another incident where you have described this woman as a friend, loulou falaise, i believe she's called. 0h, sir, oh, that is so wrong! let me correct you.

loulou de la falaise was a dearfriend. and i will always say that when she used that term... she used the... wait, let me...let me finish! well, nobody knows the story. people don't know. i need to finish! would you let me talk? if i may, people don't know she used of the n—word with regard to you. and that wasn't the first person who used the n—word. she was a hive that day at a luncheon, and she perhaps used that word thinking she was making a compliment to me calling me n—dandy, based on her knowledge of nancy cunard, and nancy cunard wrote a great book called negro, a great anthology. nancy cunard was an extraordinary woman, i guess you know, in terms of style history. anyway, to make a short story, a long story short, loulou de la falaise was not a racist, and i did not consider it a racist comment. can we move on, sir? but in this era of black lives matter, of a real sense that

black people will no longer put up with so much that they put up with before, do you regret the... i do not regret anything! i do not regret anything i've ever done. i am terribly focused on black lives matter. i am terribly — sitting here today, i am aware of the injustices, people are no longer going to put up with the social, state—sanctioned lynchings of black people by policeman, iam aware. i've never regretted anything in my life. when i was at vogue, it was not my role to go around saying "let us in, there's no diversity." do you think that was myjob? i was working at a fashion magazine, not a political magazine. i was not working at a weekly news magazine, i was working at a fashion magazine that promoted fashion. it was not my role to be an activist, 0k? but then... i am an activist

in my personal life, i am an activist in my personal life every single day. let's get to the fashion industry and what has happened in the last few weeks since the killing of george floyd at the hands of white policeman in minneapolis and all that has come since then, in a whole range of industries, including fashion. here are the words of anna wintour, your former associate, her apology to her own staff at conde nast earlier this month. she wrote to them, she said, "i want to say this to the black members of our team, "i can only imagine what these days have been like, "i want you to plainly know that vogue has "not found enough ways to elevate, give space to black editors, writers, photographers, designers. we made mistakes. i take full responsibility." when you heard that statement, did you feel it was far too late? did you feel a sense of vindication? what did you feel? i have put a moratorium on any

comments about anna wintour. i have said in an exclusive interview in the daily mail, in your country, last week, what i felt about her statement. so i'm putting a moratorium on comments from anna wintour from now on. you have referred to your time with anna wintour as being, in retrospect, extremely difficult. you had a close relationship. by 2016, it was going bad, and by 2018, it really soured. and in the memoir, you write all sorts of things about her style of management, you call her the generalissimo, you say that she could turn on you, that it was extraordinarily difficult to work for her. why did you stay so long? i stayed so long because i had a position, and it was a good salary, it was a good pay cheque. but did you not have to suffer humiliation to keep that position? no, i moved around quietly. i'm a quiet activist. i can get things resolved,

i can make a contribution by acting quietly. i can contribute by acting quietly. i was proud when i got jennifer hudson on the cover, when she was in dreamgirls, a break—out star. i was very proud when i was assigned by anna wintour to do the first cover profile of our first african—american first lady, michelle 0bama. i stayed because i can make a difference by staying, and i had a good pay cheque. these days, you describe how you would love anna wintour to reach out and at least say something to you. you don't appear to have any contact with her now. why do you still care so much? ‘cause it's quite obvious, even from this interview, that you care a very great deal. i consider anna a friend. we were friends. i think she really cared about me, she did wonderful things for me. she intervened, she was concerned about my health, because of my weight. she got me an interest—free loan to buy my grandmother a big new house, which i own now. i paid the loan off

interest—free after 30 years. and i considered her a friend. i felt that we spoke the same language, the same language about fashion. and i considered her a friend. and i was hurt. i was hurt by the friendship, by the way she just dismissed me off the red carpet at the met gala, as also when she just, she asked me to do the podcast, the first vogue podcast, and after about nine months, itjust vanished into the vapours without any explanation. others in the fashion industry have said that anna wintour is ruthlessly committed to the commercial success of her organisation, conde nast, and she moves with the times when she has to, and that you perhaps did not. and tom ford has said that you maintained a sense of style which was perhaps redolent of days past with its focus on elegance and beauty, at a time when the fashion business was changing very quickly.

do you accept that maybe you didn't move with the times, particularly in a world of social media? i would say that that possibly could be applied to me. perhaps i think that i am up with the times, for sure, but i am very aware of the times. i am very aware of the racism, i am very aware of the class systems of the english culture. i am very aware of everything that happens. i wake up every day and i'm reading james baldwin, i'm looking at david chapelle‘s great 8 minutes, 46 seconds masterpiece performance about the killing of george floyd. i am sitting here focused on the times. i am a person that believes that without the past you can't have a future, you can't go forward into the future. the past is always present. so if tom ford said that, i think he is right to have his own opinion, and i think that anna wintour

will be at the top of the mountain for as long as she wants to be. and of course, conde nast has appointed a black editor to the uk edition of vogue, edward enninful. does that signify something important or is it perhaps reading too much into one position? it's extraordinarily important what happened with mr enninful. he's a friend of mine, and when he got the job i congratulated him in an e—mail and he said, "thank you, andre, you have paved the way." and he continues to say that, that i paved the way. they made me feel very proud. they made me feel good that he would admit that i paved the way. no—one is saying that i paved the way except edward enninful. it is extremely important in defining the future of conde nast. recently harper's bazaar and hearst recently named their first black female editor as editor—in—chief, and this is the way of the future. they've got a black man,

sir edward enninful at british vogue, and they've got samara nasr at harper's bazaar. and this is a first in the history of the hearst harper's bazaar. so, therefore the future is all about black people who have been given the chance to prove who they are. we have much to give. we have built this country, black slaves built the capitol, they built the white house. black people have built the railroads. black people have built the country and black people have spilled their blood from lynchings and wars, and serving in wars. mr talley, without wishing to get too personal... call me andre, call me andre. andre, you did say that you were never allowed real genuine love into your life, a loving relationship. and i'm wondering whether that reflects on the thing we were talking about before, on the way in which you had to compartmentalise the pain

in your life, and whether that has made you unwilling to be vulnerable. i never went to therapy because of my sexual abuse, i never had any kind of professional mental health help. i do say that i don't know how to be intimate, because i don't trust intimacy, i don't like people to touch me. my whole brain is scrambled because of the sexual abuse, and it was serial, it was not one time. but as i've gotten older, at the age of 71, i've been blessed with this great house and beautiful garden which is a very expensive upkeep, and i've opened up my life more, and i have great friends, i have the love of great friends. i have 10 great friends i can count and i can rely upon them. bethann hardison, alexis thomas, janis mayes, these are african—american women. they are great friends. i have a great friend, chad cooper, that i know who helps me go

to the grocery store and drives my car and run errands for me. i have many great friends. i have wonderfulfriends. the pastor of my church, i dedicated the book to my pastor, the reverend dr calvin 0 butts, iii. i consider him also a great friend. i can call him up and it will take the time to pray with me if i'm in a situation where i feel panicky, under anxiety. growing up in my grandmother's house in the ‘50s and the ‘60s in the south, people didn't know about therapy. i never knew. no—one would go to a shrink. black people didn't go to a shrink, rich or poor. you went to church. and they were silent, not spoken about. i feel that i have matured at the age of 71. and i have let people into my house. people used to come to my house and i would not let them past the porch. now i let them come to my house and they come inside. just a final thought — do you think that for a young black

kid growing up in the united states today with your smartness, your aesthetic sense, your ambition and determination to get on, do you think they will have it easy, that generation, this new generation of black kids, than you had it growing up in the segregated south? absolutely, without question. without question! because of the social media, the platforms, the digital platforms, the influencers, they have the opportunity to express their voice. they have an opportunity to direct their own narrative and journey. there is more of a chance today for the young african—american man, a boy, man, woman orfemale, male orfemale to get ahead in fashion. i see evidence of that everywhere. and i'm very proud of that and happy to see the progress. there's a lot of work to be done, but progress has been made. andre leon talley, we have to end there. but i thank you so much for being on hardtalk. thank you,

i appreciate talking to you. it was great talking to you. thank you so much. hello there. on tuesday, the temperature reached 29 celsius around london. now, by the end of the week, we're likely to find the weather breaking down with a bang but, for the next couple of days, the heat and humidity will continue to build, and we could get 90 fahrenheit. that heat and humidity coming in from continental europe, and spilling its way northwards to much of the country. that warmth coming in around an area of high pressure but, by the end of the week, the pressure pattern looks very different. lowering pressure coming in from the atlantic, threatening to sweep some thundery downpours

in from the west on friday. now, at the moment, we've still got some rain around, mainly for western scotland and northern ireland. elsewhere, dry with clearer skies, and quite a warm start to wednesday — 12 to 15 degrees. now, the rain in the north—west will gradually peter out during wednesday. the cloud thins, skies brighten and there'll be some sunshine, particularly for southern and eastern scotland, where it should be quite warm. but it's across england and wales where we've got the gentle breezes and the strong sunshine, and the temperatures are continuing to climb — 30 degrees in birmingham, 31 in london. and you probably noticed, like i have, that the pollen levels are very high, not just across england and wales, but in across northern ireland and a good part of scotland as well. as we move into thursday, there could be some thundery showers towards the far north—west of scotland to move away. later in the day, maybe just a hint of things to come, with some showers in cornwall, but thursday's probably going to be the peak of the heat. the warmth will continue to push its way into scotland. we're not getting the extreme

heat in northern ireland. 32 is 90 fahrenheit, that's in london on thursday. and then the change as we head into friday. it's always going to be a little bit uncertain, but we do have that lowering pressure, and some of those thunderstorms are beginning to develop out towards the west. now, the potentialfor some very wet and thundery weather for a while across northern ireland and western scotland. and then those thundery downpours push their way eastwards steadily through the day. could be a little bit more hit and miss towards the south—east, and the last of the heat is really getting pushed more towards eastern parts of england. elsewhere, those temperatures are starting to drop away. and that process will continue over the weekend. 20 or 21 will be the best we'll manage, i think, by sunday, and maybe a bit of rain around and it could be quite unusually windy for the time of year.

this is bbc news. i'm maryam moshiri with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. the fbi says bubba wallace was not the victim of racism after a noose was found in his nascar team's garage. as coronavirus cases rise in the us, the top infectious disease expert warns that some parts of the country are seeing a disturbing surge. right now, the next couple of weeks are going to be critical in our ability to address those surgings that we are seeing. as latin america struggles to cope with the coronavirus pandemic, a judge in brazil orders the president to wear a mask in public. we have a special report on why women across europe are being denied abortions