this is bbc news. the headlines: scientists at imperial college in london have begun human trials for a vaccine against the coronavirus. they're using an approach that's never been tried before. if it works, a vaccine could be cheaper and easier to manufacture in mass quantities. there are more than a dozen trials underway around the world. new york and the neighbouring states of newjersey and connecticut are introducing a 14—day quarantine for visitors from nine other american states with high rates of infection. new cases of covid—19 in the us have risen to their highest level since april. a grand jury in georgia has indicted three men in the killing of ahmaud arbery, the unarmed black man who was shot and killed in february while he was out for a jog. the accused men — one a retired police officer — were arrested nearly three months later, after video of the killing went viral. they face nine counts, including murder.

now it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i am stephen sackur. no—one better epitomises any strongman style of leadership then president rodrigo duterte, of the philippines. he has a visceral dislike of independentjournalism and no—one knows that better than my guest today, maria ressa, founder of the rappler online news website. she has just been convicted of cyberlibel in a manila court room, so, is president rodrigo duterte's populism strangling press freedom?

maria ressa in manila, thank you for joining hardtalk. thank you, stephen. starting with your personal situation, earlier this month you we re situation, earlier this month you were convicted on this charge of cyberlibel, as they called it. has it change things for you? aside from the emotional rollercoaster and the fa ct we the emotional rollercoaster and the fact we have crossed yet another divide, i think i'm on the same rate i have been on for the last four yea rs, i have been on for the last four years, which is really standing up for my rights both as a filipino and asa for my rights both as a filipino and as a journalist. you are on bail and i think your legal team said there will be an appeal. do you, in any sense, feel frightened right now? you know, stephen, i have gone through this. when you have been under attack forfour through this. when you have been under attack for four years, as we have been, there have been all the stages, like the stages of grief, right? in 2016, we were pummelled on social media, exponential attacks

that are extremely visceral and take you by surprise. the viciousness of it. the same narratives in 2017 come out of government ‘s mounds, president rodrigo duterte himself then began to equate journalists with criminals and then in 2018, 11 cases and investigations, i was in and out talking to officials and 2019, the filing of the cases. i have eight arrest warrants against me file that year. that was only last year! i was arrested twice, detained ones. i feel like last year! i was arrested twice, detained ones. ifeel like alice in wonderland and i am down in a rabbit hole, going out and i will walk out! this verdict that happened on cyberlibel, a story we publish before the law we allegedly violated was even in effect! this cements it now, right, that 2016, their

journalists are criminals. in 2020 after the weaponisation of social media, the weaponisation of the law and now i am convicted. that is the death of a thousand cuts of our democracy. there is no doubt it is not just you that democracy. there is no doubt it is notjust you that has suffered from repressive tactics coming from government agencies. we can all feed that. but, nonetheless, the notion that. but, nonetheless, the notion that all sorts of freedom of expression are now curtailed and eliminated in the philippines, surely is not right. if one looks at your country today, there is still a multitude of diverse opinion across the spectrum of politics. in different platforms on the media, not least rappler itself, after all, your website has not been shut down, it continues to this day. it has millions of eyes on every single month. the philippines is not north

korea, nothing like. who would want to be north korea, right? in the end, the philippines is also living under a climate of fear and violence. in fact, when i last interviewed president rodrigo duterte, when he was a ready president, i was one of four journalists each gave an interview to in 2016 and i asked him that specifically, i said "mr president, 110w specifically, i said "mr president, now that you are in charge of protecting the constitution, is it necessary to use violence? "and he said yes, he said it is necessary to use violence and fear. so while you see what looks like a multitude of voices, imagine that those voices also have a sword hanging over their heads. during the pandemic, people based on the post on social media, people were arrested. i think there

isa people were arrested. i think there is a good veneer of legality for all of these but we certainly have felt the walls closing in. in order to be able to publish as rappler, look at what i have had to go through! i am just a journalist. what i have had to go through! i am just ajournalist. i what i have had to go through! i am just a journalist. i understand. what i have had to go through! i am just ajournalist. i understand. my show is called hardtalk so i have to ta ke show is called hardtalk so i have to take seriously the charges against you. absolutely. you have indicated that liability listed that you still face allegations of four tax evasion, receiving money from the cia. you could be in court for years and years to come? well, that's, the only thing i can say is these charges, the eight criminal charges i'm facing fall into three buckets. the first is cyberlibel. the second is securities fraud, and in that we will throw—in for — foreign ownership foreign control, something violating the anti—w law and the 30s

tax evasion. again, just like the first case we were charged with tax evasion about three months after we received an award from the government for being a top corporate taxpayer. then no more than six months later we were tax evaders, pushed on social media and in addition to that, to make this charge, that actually had to redefine rappler from a charge, that actually had to redefine rapplerfrom a news organisation to a dealer in securities. you know, so, sure, let's do hardtalk! ifeel like, as a reporter, as someone let's do hardtalk! ifeel like, as a reporter, as someone running a news organisation, i give the government and the president the respect that the office demands. i think, you know. but the kinds of death by a thousand cuts that we have had to absorb, just to do ourjobs, just to continue doing investigative reporting, i've never lived through anything like this and i've covered south east asia and the transition

from authoritarian 1—man rule to democracy, starting here in the philippines in 1986! maria ressa, do you think the filipino public care about your fate and those of other journalists in your country because one looks at the president ‘s approval ratings, they are consistently above 80% approval, the kind of figure that other leaders around the world could only dream about and the filipino public are well aware of what he is doing to the press. there are two answers to the press. there are two answers to the question. the first one is the kinds of propaganda machine and how it uses technology to essentially use it as a behavioural modification system and i can explain that more later. the propaganda is exponential and it lifts when he president rodrigo duterte is the best, the defender of the poor, even though it is the poor and who are dying in the drug war. that is the first step.

the age of social media, statistical surveys have not been able to keep up surveys have not been able to keep up with the shifts. the second one is do people care? yes. i can see that based on what has happened and i think this in particular in 2023 things that happen. we have had a pandemic, the lockdown. we are in our 14th week of a very security driven militaristic lockdown. a lockdown that president rodrigo duterte has told filipinos to stay—at—home andy told troops that if they come out, if we break quarantining, and this is a direct quote, he said "shoot them dead". that did happen. almost 60,000 people have been arrested during this time. and because we're lockdown, i think there have been more introspection. the second is... . i will stop you there if i may because it is fascinating what you're saying but worries or evidence? i look at the latest

polling i can find in the philippines on this company, social weather stations, they are respected, they suggest that the filipino public as a whole approves still of the campaign by the president of his campaign against illegal drugs and they favour him despite all the controversy about his anti— terror law, which you and others have described as a fundamental threat to freedom of expression. that's the third one, the antihero bill. you have to get really no way. everything you say about what president rodrigo duterte is doing is not deterring a really big majority of filipinos from giving him their backing.|j big majority of filipinos from giving him their backing. i think you have to look at the surveys and actually talk to the people who do the surveys and the biggest question you have to ask them is how do you count forfear? you have to ask them is how do you count for fear? before we went to lockdown this was a question i asked all the time because these surveys are done in the homes of people,

they have their numbers, they know who they are, they are normally, their names are normally given by their names are normally given by the village chiefs, the captains. how do you account for fear? not saying that president rodrigo duterte is not popular because i think this home spun, this kind of, the guy you want to have a beer with, the grandfather you want to have the beer with easy narrative. that is appealing. having said that, how do you count for fear? interesting question and i tell you what, that plants in my mind a different idea about fear. maybe for you, and be honest, a relatively elite personality living in a nice pa rt elite personality living in a nice part of manila with perhaps more security than most filipinos, it is easy for you to focus on the threats to freedom which you fee and the fear you talk about but what about the other filipinos his fear is much more street level? more about the

insecurity? your rappler website has made a point of investigating the drugs war that president rodrigo duterte has initiated for the last 3- duterte has initiated for the last 3— four years but the drugs war according to most filipinos have made their streets safer. yes, they look at the fact that hardly any security personnel have been persecuted — prosecuted for egregious use of violence but they look at the fact that thousands of drug dealers have been taken off the streets, and they like that. i think thatis streets, and they like that. i think that is definitely the narrative but if you dig deeper into the surveys, number one, this is based on the un report, onejust released number one, this is based on the un report, one just released a few weeks ago, you can see that the people who die in the drug war are the poor. and you can see that in those surveys, not just the poor. and you can see that in those surveys, notjust the social weather stations, it is also polls asia, you can see that president rodrigo duterte support among the poorest of the poor has dwindled significantly compared to the ab, the people who are wealthy, he can

cut the deals. i always say there are three things that really characterise living under the age of president rodrigo duterte. you have to do one of these three things, the three c. corrupt, coerce or co—opt and it is not the poor or do that i would say that the poor suffer the most. if you look at the brutal drug war, it depends on here talk to, if you talk to the police they will say i well, maybe about 6000— 7000 have died. they admit to that. then he took to the human rights groups and they say it is tens of thousands our own filipino commission on human rights places the number at 27,000. that was several months ago. no, i think you have to look much deeper into the numbers, look at which of the demographics and look at who is winning and who is losing. let me ask you a personal question and be brief if you can. sure. has a boss

of rappler, known for its investigations including the drugs war, can you now think very carefully before commissioning any reported that has dug into what has happened into the streets. a man for the journals have been happened into the streets. a man for thejournals have been killed this year. more than 100 journalists have been killed in the last couple of decades in the philippines. it is dangerous being a journalist. are you now fearful for your own staff? that is a really good question. in a way we have been forged in fire and i think that the biggest lesson we have learnt in the last four years is that when there is a thought hanging over your head, if you let it affect you, then you have lost it. what we have done is we have doubled down on the investigative reporting, we know it's really important. we know we have to do this now. so, i don't actually make out the assignments in rappler but when i see in our team is this renewed commitment. they are

tireless. we have a young team. rappler is about 100 people, 63% women, the median age is 23 years old. the reported that president rodrigo duterte will lead, he basically faced her down, she was like 26 years old! when he did that! so, no, i think that i don't have to encourage rappler to do investigative reporting. i think they are doing it on their own and all i'm trying to do is keep the sky from falling. let's talk about international reaction and response to what is going on in the philippines right now. we have international ngos like amnesty international condemning what they call a policy of large—scale murdering, murdering enterprise as they call it the un human rights office report saying there is near impunity offered to philippine security personnel, and we also see consistently over the

last four years, donald trump has referred to president duterte as his friend, we have seen a very close relationship developing between duterte and the chinese government, and we see for example, that the international criminal court, which appeared to be ready to investigate what was happening in the philippines has essentially been neutralised because the philippines has refused to recognise its legitimacy. the international community frankly, has let you down, hasn't it? i wouldn't say that. what i would say is that the philippines is punching above its weight in terms of determining the geopolitical power balance. it really is, when president duterte took office by september, he took office in may 2016, by september 2016 he was in beijing, and he announced a payment of the philippines, a key country in the south china sea, what we call the west philippines see. he announced that the philippines would permit away from the united states to china

and russia. he tossed us in. what's interesting is what happened when the united states pushed against what was happening in the drug war. last december, the us government actually took away the visa of the man who was carrying out the drug war, the philippine national police chief. he is now a senator but they took away his visa under law, and the philippine government was so upset that they cancelled part of the military bases that has gone for a long time, this is a very strong relationship, in the past, to the visiting forces, the government cancelled it, but here we go again. just this month, the philippine government gave notice that they we re government gave notice that they were not going to cancel that and it is back up. my point, you are making my point for me. whatever the detail

of difficulties geostrategic difficulties in relationship between united states and the philippines, in the end, there seems to be a brotherhood feeling between donald trump and rodrigo duterte you could argue they are populists of a similar style. they have contempt for much of the media which we have discussed, they both seem to see journalists as enemies of the people, and they both, true to say, have found a way of communicating through social media, through using twitter and facebook platforms in a way that politically is extraordinarily successful. way that politically is extraordinarily successfullj way that politically is extraordinarily successful. i would agree with you, anything part of what is important, but let me first a nswer what is important, but let me first answer that question you asked. did it lead us down? no, absolutely not. understand the geopolitical power play at work here but it is very similarto play at work here but it is very similar to what is happening in many

democracies around the world, including in the uk. this is the role of technology. facebook is being in the philippines, we spend the most time on the internet, and on social media globally, and i think it is the fifth year running. we are social. what has happened is this kind of astroturf ring of manufactured consensus, the manipulation of the public as mass scale, using facebook, it has happened here in the philippines. asked about the popularity of president duterte, that is bubbly going by a propaganda machine that we got clobbered for exposing in 2016. maria, i would we got clobbered for exposing in 2016. maria, iwould have we got clobbered for exposing in 2016. maria, i would have to enter up 2016. maria, i would have to enter up because that is so what you are suggesting is that democracy doesn't work anymore. if you are talking about manipulating public opinions, then you are undermining and delegitimising the notion that

eve ryo ne delegitimising the notion that everyone has a right to choose a government. if you say their opinions are fake or false, whereas democracy? that's exactly what i am saying. democracy is essentially dead and part of what gilded is a media platforms that are becoming behavioural modification systems are. if you look at what has happened all around the world, starting 2017, studies have shown that cheap armies on social media are cutting down democracy, rolling it back. in 2017 it was in 27 countries, in 2018, double, 2019 it was up 70 countries, and these are different research studies. this is dangerous territory. you are suggesting to me that president duterte, in the end, is illegitimate and doesn't have a mandate, when painterly, on paper, this man has an extraordinary mandate. that not what

i'm saying. festival he does not have an extraordinary mandate, he was one of five presidential candidates, out of 62 million voters, he had 16 million votes, thatis voters, he had 16 million votes, that is what elected him. he won the majority of the five. but beyond that, what i am saying is that the new information ecosystem actually allows lies, laced with anger and hate to spread faster than facts. when a lie is told a million times in today's age, when i am attacked a million times, criminal criminal criminal, it becomes a fact, and this is what is wrong. if you don't have integrity of fact, you cannot have integrity of fact, you cannot have integrity of markets, and you certainly can't tap integrity of elections. this is the problem with democracy. a final thought than. am very mindful that you return to the philippines from the united states after the people power revolution of 1986, and you made your life in the

philippines after that. there was so much hope around then. it was a different kind of politics in your country. here is what one filipino lawyer who moved to australia recently has written. he said in terms of corruption, the post— people power government became indistinguishable from the marcos regime. the only difference was the rhetoric of human rights and democracy, which people have increasingly come to regard as a sham. isn't that the truth was mac duterte is in power and quote unquote, so successful because the post people power politics of the philippines simply failed the people. i think i would agree that post people power was a failure, we had endemic corruption, replaced one set of leaders with another, who then created their own, i mean we have always had the eight oligarch families, but the difference is

this. the trickle—down effect didn't trickle down. there was a perfect storm, and this happened globally, this is part of the reason you are seeing a trend back to a form of i would say almost fascism. because liberal democracy didn't deliver its promise. having said that, we should not be moving the other direction, and that is the challenge to every democracy here. part of what is enabling that is social media. when the gatekeepers, the journalists, news organisations used to be gatekeepers, we kept the public sphere, we all agreed on the fact that. 0ut sphere, we all agreed on the fact that. out of the gatekeepers are tech companies, the application of that responsibility has had huge impact on what we're seeing now is the of, all my gosh, i'm going to say fascism all around the world, and this is scary for me, here in the philippines, because we are one of the first signatories from the un

declaration of human rights, and yet i see filipinos, things i would have thought would have been unbelievable, filipinos are saying it's ok to kill. filipino saying that you know, democracy doesn't work. maybe it doesn't, but i guess this is where i would like to see filipinos way in. we should not look away, we should make an act active choice, and when you see your rights getting pushed back, and i saw my rights being violated, and when that happens, are we going to accept that? that will fundamentally change democracy. maybe we should... we have to end, but i'm thinking, never mind the threat of present now hanging over your head, you continue this fight? it's notjust about present. the journey is the battle because i think there is so much more at stake. if it was just me, i would be quiet, why not? but there is so much at stake for us right now. i became a journalist in 1986

andi now. i became a journalist in 1986 and i am now. i became a journalist in 1986 andiama now. i became a journalist in 1986 and i am a journalist today. at my most senior. i want to make sure that i do the right thing for democracy, forjournalism. maria ressa, thank you very much indeed for being on hardtalk. hello. wednesday was officially the hottest day of 2020 so far — 32.6 celsius at london heathrow airport. ithink, though, today may top that further. we're likely to see 33, again, i think somewhere towards the west of london or on into parts of the midlands. make no mistake, it will be hot and humid day across the board.

we're pulling our air in across western europe, originally from northern africa, and you can see the amber makes it all the way to the north of the uk for thursday. so, areas that have lagged behind a little with the temperatures, scotland and northern ireland, will move into the warmer air through the day. notice some thunderstorms there towards the north—west — we'll see more of those a little later — but generally, not much happens on that chart through thursday. that's because basically it's a day of blue skies and sunshine, and up go those temperatures. 30 degrees possible in central scotland, mid—20s for northern ireland, and as i said, possibly 33 somewhere further south. however, when it gets that hot, you know what's coming — thunderstorms. thursday evening, pretty quiet, very muggy, a lot of late sunshine, but then on into the small hours of friday, the thunderstorm start to break out, initially towards the west of the uk. it will take a while for them to ease the heat. so thursday night into friday, rather uncomfortable, some spots down no lower than 18 or 19 degrees celsius.

through friday daytime, though, those storms are going to come increasingly widespread. some eastern areas will still see a lot of sunshine, feeling very muggy here indeed, whereas when the showers start to break out, we will feel the heat beginning to ease. so, a west—east split in our temperatures on friday. cooler, fresher with temperatures in the low—20s in the west, still possibly up to 30 in the east. but through friday and on into the weekend, this area of low pressure really does start to take hold from the atlantic. it moves away the high that's locked in, though hot air, as it moves, it brings in clear atlantic air. gone the amber, in comes the fresher yellow. not just fresher conditions, though, but much more unsettled conditions thanks to that area of low pressure. so you can see spots a 10—degree drop in temperature at the start of the weekend, we're also going to see quite a few showers i think.

this is bbc news. i'm david eades with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. new york, america's worst—hit state for coronavirus deaths, now clamps down on travellers from other parts of the country, where infection rates are surging. the australian airline qantas cuts at least 6,000 jobs and grounds 100 aircraft — some of them for at least three years. we have a special report on palestinian children who are struggling to get urgently needed treatment as cooperation with israel continues to crumble. we hear from three generations of black men to find out what the black lives matters movement means to them, their families and their country.