this is bbc news. the headlines: exit polls in poland's presidential election show incumbent andrzej duda is in the lead, but doesn't have the votes to win outright. mr duda, a socially conservative right—winger, is projected to have won just under 42% of the ballots. a second round will be held in two weeks‘ time. as the coronavirus death toll hits 500,000 worldwide, a leading scientist says the uk is on "a knife edge" with an increase in cases expected in the winter. the government is considering imposing local lockdowns in areas that show signs of a surge in cases. police in hong kong have arrested 53 people who were taking part in a protest against national security legislation that will soon be imposed on the territory. beijing is preparing to pass new laws following a year of protests.

now on bbc news, it's hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i am stephen sackur. it is the job of the professional satirist to find the funny and expose the absurd inhumanity‘s most serious endeavours. there are times where satire just doesn't work, should we be laughing at covid—19 or racial discrimination? i guess be laughing at covid—i9 or racial discrimination? i guess today is a hugely successful writer and director of comedy on television and film, armando iannucci. is there ever a bad time and place to be funny?

armando iannucci, welcome to hardtalk. hello. good to have you on the show at a very difficult time. i just wonder with reference to coronavirus and everything else that is happening right now, do you need to be ina is happening right now, do you need to be in a certain frame of mind to write, and in particular, to write funny? that is interesting. it is good, i have some structure to the day because we are actually in the middle of writing a new theory is of avenue five, the sci—fi comedy we do have hbo, but on the other hand, that show positive premise is about 6500 people being trapped in a spaceship that they can't get out of, and suffering a fundamental lack of, and suffering a fundamental lack of leadership, and it is very difficult under these circumstances, but i can certainly empathise with them, but it is very difficult to see the funny side of it because it

is so real and so kind of current at the moment. yes, and i asked the question partly because i feel you have been quite honest in recent things you have said in public, and i will quote one where you said, do people really want bags from someone like me who is right now running low on good cheer —— gags. it has been a ha rd on good cheer —— gags. it has been a hard time for everyone, and i think a lot of good has come out of the lockdown in terms of the higher profile and importance of care workers and people on the front line. it has given everyone a time to sort of just line. it has given everyone a time to sort ofjust a from the craziness of the world and assess everything. but it has been hard. people have been dying, people have been falling dangerously ill. every family has been affected and touched by it. i don't necessarily see myjob, if i even think of it as a job, as someone even think of it as a job, as someone who has to wake up every morning and the first thing i say to myself is, what should i make fun of

today? i have never seen it as that. i have always felt that what you do asa i have always felt that what you do as a writer or someone i have always felt that what you do as a writer or someone who works in comedy is to write about what makes you passionate, what makes you enthusiastic, what makes you angry, what makes you frustrated. all these things. some of stirs something in you and it is that, an article you from was me reading two or three weeks and is a lot down just reflecting on how actually, then may not have been the time to do lots and lots of funny stuff about the predicament we were in. 13, 14 and lots of funny stuff about the predicament we were in. 13, 1a weeks have gone in and we are now beginning to get a handle on what has worked and what hasn't worked. that is interesting, because i think iand many that is interesting, because i think i and many people associate you with being a greater willingness to go into the darker corners of the human experience and to find humour in places where most of us wouldn't even dare look, and i am thinking of

everything from the iraq war to the machinations of political process, and we will talk about it in more detail later, the death of stalin. you find funny in the weirdest of places. could you not find it in covid—19? places. could you not find it in covid-19? my instinct was really it will come when it comes. we are so immersed in it and will come when it comes. we are so immersed in itand i think will come when it comes. we are so immersed in it and i think one is finding it funny other ones who have a much morejournalistic bank to their comedy, john oliver who has a whole team of researchers and factual researchers as well, investigative researchers. he turns that knowledge and that factual information into something funny. and if he does it so well, i don't see that is where i fit. yes, of course i will end up doing something about it, but i think i need that moment to arrive, and also, things are changing so rapidly that any

dramatic reconstruction of what is happening now, ithink, by the dramatic reconstruction of what is happening now, i think, by the time it is ready, it will be infinitely out of date. i think things will have moved on. politics is going through some crazy tumble dryer. at the moment, things are crashing around and changing all the time. i think you are more... i predict you would have a higher success rate i think if you are doing something on a daily or weekly basis. what i do notice about your focus at the moment is often in terms of twitter, the public profile, you are writing very serious things you are trying to make serious points, not least about the dangers faced by the creative industries from theatres to your own film and tv business by what has come with covid—19, including all of the lock down measures, the social distancing, the impossibility to fill the and low venues, at least indoors. do you

really think that this is something, all of us, we are connected to the entertainment business or not, we have to care about. absolutely, and ifind it is have to care about. absolutely, and i find it is very difficult, i have to care about. absolutely, and ifind it is very difficult, i know, to plead for money for the arts because inevitably you say what about hospitals, what about schools? economically, looking at the uk, which is my prime argument, they are going to be the last thing to open up going to be the last thing to open upjust going to be the last thing to open up just because they involve large performance pieces and large numbers of people. they are expected to run, but because they will be the last things to open up, the ones most in danger of shutting down for good. if you think, first of all, how much... 0h, they're you think, first of all, how much... 0h, they‘ re both you think, first of all, how much... 0h, they're both part of my... you think, first of all, how much... oh, they're both part of my... re- track ten seconds. if you think about how much culture and the arts has sustained us through the lockdown, the fact that every day we

are reading new books, watching more on netflix or streaming services on the bbc or the iplayer downloading, looking at art, how much they get us through, so they are that important, but also, economically, i did a speech for the festival four or five weeks ago and i was researching figures in the creative industries in the uk contribute more to our national gdp than the oil and car industry put together. and yet it is very easy i think for a government minister to support the car industry or to support the energy industry, to support aviation, to support tourism, and i think they find it difficult, i don't know whether it isa difficult, i don't know whether it is a very british thing, somehow it is a very british thing, somehow it is likely to clever to for your own good to support the arts and culture, but it is so crucial to the economy. it thing to me that right now there is a rises of confidence in your business, and i am particularly thinking of comedy, whether it be live comedy or the

sorts of comedy on tv and film that you do, it is notjust born out of the post corona economic issues that the post corona economic issues that the industry faces, but also questions and issues of identity and what comedy is really for and what it is allowed to be, and i'm thinking particularly of the debates that have arisen in recent weeks post the killing of george floyd in the united states about race and comedy, and you will have seen, just as we all have, that the bbc has gotten it all into a bit of a mess, taking an additional faulty towers off one of its streaming services for a while because it was deemed to be causing too much offence because of racial stereotyping and up and that it could have caused —— fawlty towers. as a very senior boys and comedy in the uk right now, what do you make of what is happening? you make me sound like some company board member. the voice of comedy speaks. it is interesting. each one

of those examples, and there was something similar with hbo max taking gone with the wind off, in the end, those programmes came back on but they came back with an explanation as to why some people mightfind explanation as to why some people might find elements within an offensive or in a historical context, and i think it is important that we don't do a jerk reaction, a nervous reaction and everything from the past. there is an understanding in most people that attitudes, language, behaviour, tolerance was very different ten, 15, 20, 30, 40, 100 years ago. for me, what i am more concerned with is less what we do about stuff we made in the past, because i think those debates will flare up and then disappear within three orfour flare up and then disappear within three or four days, flare up and then disappear within three orfour days, or in a flare up and then disappear within three or four days, or in a specific example. what is more important is what we do going forward, i had a film that came out in the uk of

david copperfield, it is now being released internationally in which david copperfield is played by dev patel, and it interesting me that quite a lot of people before seeing the film would pick up on that as an example of strangely, the phrases casting, which i find slightly negative and limiting is a phrase, for me, ijust chose patel because he, for me, was the actor who most represented what i saw in the character of david copperfield, the energy and his appetite for life and his delight and imagination and everything, and i could have —— couldn't have imagined making the film with anyone else. but when i casting, i asked, film with anyone else. but when i casting, iasked, how film with anyone else. but when i casting, i asked, how do i cut eve ryo ne casting, i asked, how do i cut everyone else? just find the dark who best inhabits the spirit of that character irrespective of their background ethnicity. i just character irrespective of their background ethnicity. ijust want the best actor. why should i not be able to choose from 100% of the

acting talent available to me? that isa acting talent available to me? that is a great queue. let's play a very short clip from the david copperfield movie that is now going to be seen around the world. it is so interesting that you have put out there a movie, which frankly, charles dickens, when he wrote it, would not have imagined david copperfield would look like a man of south asian origin, but you say that is the size of the point that this is the size of the point that this is about common humanity and colour doesn't matter. let's have a look at the clip. is it lunch? there is troubling thoughts. they wear you down. they do pile up. a corruptible crown. . . down. they do pile up. a corruptible crown... no, we can release them! we can cast them to the wind.|j crown... no, we can release them! we can cast them to the wind. i must say i am feeling much better. you

have to fly it first. come on! fly time! lead on, lead on! up, up, up! steady, steady! i can't believe it! this sky is absorbing my words! the higher the words go... clear in my mind becomes. i haven't felt like this... it is as if i am reading from the bar again. before everything... i used to share a staircase with tommy who was a terrific fellow. there is a thing. i completely forgot that i can speak french. how far can your approach to find the common humanity and to cast ina way find the common humanity and to cast in a way that leaves aside issues of skin colour, how far can that go? i just read the other day that ian mckellen, in his 80s, is going to play hamlet, usually regarded as a

pa rt play hamlet, usually regarded as a part for a young man perhaps in his 20s, as the young prince. how far can this notion that you are seeking something beyond the obvious in characterisation, how far can it go? you remember the old males one lake —— makes one lake and there have been all—female shakespeare productions ofjulius caesar, and no—one i think is saying that that one way they are making it should be the norm for every production or every film or every programme. i think these examples are just stating, especially with all works, adaptations of things that are very well known, that there are always new and fresh and interesting ways of interpreting it, new and fresh ways of putting on a production that just opens people bothered eyes and ea rs just opens people bothered eyes and ears to something new and it allows people to see something new. for me, reading the david copperfield, i

have been a huge fan of charles dickens all my life. it appeals to me is his humour, which is not something conveyed in some of the adaptation is also very often people grow up with the idea he wrote about mud and fog and death and crime and thatis mud and fog and death and crime and that is it. but he is a very funny writer. i want to return to the idea of offence in comedy and where the line is. one of your hits was the death of stalin but it struck me that if you had suggested to investors that you had suggested to investors that you wanted to make a movie about the death of hitler that was going to be full of knockabout comedy, they would probably have laughed you out of the room. why is it that one of the great mass murderers of the 20th century the great mass murderers of the 20th ce ntu ry ca n the great mass murderers of the 20th century can be made fun of, albeit with serious undertones, but made fun of in a movie of yours are not

actually cause offence to potentially millions of people across the former soviet union stop it needs to be done with great care and when we started on the film i told everyone that we must be respectful of what actually happened to people in the soviet union at the time. the treatment of them in the gulag's and the torture places and the enormous amount of death stop i wa nted the enormous amount of death stop i wanted to treat it honestly and directly and not make fun of it. the comedy came from the characters in the kremlin. the absurdity of their position where they each felt they had to stick to a line because anyone who departed from the line could be shot but no—one knew what the line was stop that struck me is whether comedy was. the consequences of the decisions they make in that bubble that have real and tragic effect to people outside. but to be clear about the line because it is fascinating. would you have made the same kind of film about the last

days of hitler? i point you towards j°j° days of hitler? i point you towards jojo rabbit which did. the great dictator, one of charlie chaplin's greatest films made and released in 1941 when everyone knew but so much more was to be known about the menace of hitler. and what charlie chaplin did there was some of his funniest and comic routines, sitting next to straight dramatic scenes set in thejewish ghetto. and i always said that you do not little a subject by making it the subject of comedy. comedy allows you to come at something from an unexpected and unpredictable angle and allows you to get closer, sometimes, to a subject than you might do if you we re subject than you might do if you were going through much more natural good drama. it allows you... i did a good drama. it allows you... i dida a lot of research for the death of stalin and we spoke to people who

grew up under stalin who told us that everyone had to pack a suitcase and have it by the door because if you were dragged out in the middle of the night to the gulag you could grab of the night to the gulag you could gmba of the night to the gulag you could grab a suitcase and you had something to take. they went to bed with layers of clothes on so if they we re with layers of clothes on so if they were dragged out and taken to siberia they had lots of warm clothing. and the only way to do it they said, is through comedy because of the absurdity of what was happening full of everyone knew what was stupid and they told me of the existence of stalin joke books with terrible sickjokes about stalin and the gulag's and so on and if a neighbourhood you tell one of these jokes and reported you you could be shot and yet you still had to be able tojoke. shot and yet you still had to be able to joke. it is as if they were saying that stalin could take my family, my liberty and my livelihood ifi family, my liberty and my livelihood if i can still make fun of him he has not taken my brain or my conscious. that my conscience over a

long career delving into dark and difficult comments —— corners and other things you would not have done ain? other things you would not have done again? language changes, attitudes change and i can think of a sketch i did about 20 years ago about racist police horses. it was the horses who express the racism. and i worked with the actors and i said what phrases are used against you and we had the 30 of these horses spouting quite offensive language that then became a bit more distorted and illogical. i have not looked back at it that i suspect if i watched it now i would feel uncomfortable because some of those words, in the course of that time, have much more weight and impact and historic meaning than if i was to redo that now i would approach it with a different attitude. for me, ifelt

it was validated in that i was doing it was validated in that i was doing it alongside the actors involved so that we were trying to explore what is the line that causes offence. and i have always have dealt that offence is such a catchall word. if someone says they are offended, my instinct is to ask what is wrong with being offended ? instinct is to ask what is wrong with being offended? that does not mean that everything is game and you can say whatever you live but i do think that if we have a set of beliefs they should be able to withstand a joke about those. if you cannot withstand a joke then maybe those beliefs are not well supported andi those beliefs are not well supported and i think it is important that we do not lose that sense of having debate, that we do not shut down because someone has a view different from ours. how close are we, do you think, to losing that edge and the

debate? there goes half my ear. hang on. don't worry. you are saying? now that you have two is again, how close are we to losing that? there isa close are we to losing that? there is a danger. if you look at the politics in america, the fact that the democrats and republicans will no longer talk to each other, the last general election in the uk between the extreme possession of borisjohnson between the extreme possession of boris johnson and the between the extreme possession of borisjohnson and the brexit supporters and the corbin easter is an corbin supporters who would not brook any dissent. that idea of gathering towards a group who agree entirely with what you say and not in any way considering any kind of contact with anyone else, i think is going to lead to more and more extreme politics and if, as everyone is saying, quite rightly, can't we just all come together, this

experience of the pandemic has unified us, can't wejust experience of the pandemic has unified us, can't we just use this to come together, the only way you can come together is by talking to each other and talking is not talking at each other. and not following or not platforming someone who disagrees with you. it should involve an attempt to get behind the mindset of someone who disagrees with you to see where they are coming from. it strikes me that your recent work including david copperfield and the miniseries you are still filming, a comedy set in outer space, you have moved away a little bit from the very current affairs driven politically driven satires that we know you four. is it because you have become a little demoralised about the degree that satire can make a difference in today's world? i think you are on a hiding to nothing if you think

comedy will change people's views. it may eliminate or highlight something but end people decide for themselves. i have been biding my time. it is also a reaction to the fa ct time. it is also a reaction to the fact that things like veep and the effect of it relied on an agreed set of rules and norms that politics was conducted on. and should politicians occasionally break the rules. but if donald trump can say i could literally shoot a guy in the face in the middle of fifth ave and i would still be elected, there are no longer any rules and the rules do not exist. there are no rules so i cannot show how they are being broken. it is a whole other level of alice in wonderland absurdity to the coronavirus is spiking in america at the moment yet it is being hailed as a terrific success by the administration. facts have become fa ke administration. facts have become fake and use becomes fake news and

therefore i think, you know, if you wa nted therefore i think, you know, if you wanted to do a literal interpretation of what is happening now, you are better to do with on a daily or weekly basis. but i am standing by. i have not gone away. is at the thought you leave us with? that donald trump is, in a perverse sense, satire proof? he is an entertainer and relies on ratings. that is all he is interested in the numbers of people at his inauguration or numbers of those thinking he is doing a good job he is an entertainer stop and everything he says, whether it is misconstrued, as far as he's concerned, he says he was just joking. he thinks he is telling the joke and sees himself as a satirist, he isa joke and sees himself as a satirist, he is a self abasing satirist. what we have to do is, as i say, confronting with fact. if we can do that in a funny way, great. but the

fa ct that in a funny way, great. but the fact does not exist where he is so we have to find them. armando iannucci, a pleasure having you on hardtalk. thank you very much indeed. it certainly feels like summer has come to an abrupt end, hasn't it? notjust the outbreaks of rain and fresh air but also the blustery winds and more of the same to come on monday and then through the course of the week perhaps more thundery showers on the way. this is what it looks like on the satellite picture. a big low pressure sitting top of us, there for a little while and it will stick around through most of monday and the weather front spiralling

into the centre of that low pressure, a lot of isobars there, a big pressure gradient that means the wind races into the centre of that low hence it is gusty out there. and this is what looks through the early hours of monday. the heaviest of the rain has been around the north—west of england, cumbria, lancashire and parts of the pennines they got a real dose of rain, a flood warning in place around keswick. 0ver monday we will see further heavy spells of rain in the north but in the afternoon it looks as if that will give way to sunshine and showers and another blustery day as gusts of wind in some places will reach 40 miles an hour, near gale force for the time of the year. temperature is below the average. around 15 degrees there for glasgow and possibly reaching 19 in london. on tuesday, the jet stream pushes another system in our direction, an area of low pressure not quite as developed as the one we have across right now but it will bring cloud and outbreaks of rain in the morning

in the south and to the north i think this is where the focus will be as far as weather goes, heavy showers, some of them thundery across parts of scotland and maybe the north of england. temperatures again for many of us around the mid—high teens. that was tuesday and this is wednesday. outbreaks of rain in the morning and the south clearing away giving way to sunshine and then showers will start to develop quite widely across the uk during the course of wednesday afternoon. temperatures around 17—20 celsius with the wind a little lighter from tuesday onwards. this is the summary for the week ahead. a mixed bag across the uk. sometimes brightness and showers and the temperatures may gently creep up towards the end of the week.

this is bbc news, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. i'm james reynolds. more than half a million people have lost their lives in the coronavirus pandemic and some us states fear another spike in infections. exit polls show polish president andrzej duda finishes first in the election — but doesn't have the votes for an outright victory. beijing asserts its authority over hong kong as its expected to pass a new security law. the pride parade goes ahead in taiwan — most other countries have cancelled