alexander lu kashenko has gathered in minsk to demand his resignation. it comes amid growing anger over alleged poll—rigging and police violence at subsequent protests. but the president vows to stay in power, claiming belarus is under threat from foreign forces. the speaker of the us house of representatives, nancy pelosi, has said that she will recall the chamber later this week to vote on legislation to protect the postal service. democrats have accused president trump of trying to hamstring the cash—strapped postal service to suppress mail—in voting in november's election. new zealand's prime minister has announced that general elections due to take place in mid—september have been postponed because of a fresh covid—19 outbreak. jacinda ardern told a news conference the poll date has been pushed back to october the 17th, giving parties time to resume their suspended election campaigns. now on bbc news, hardtalk.

welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. the chinese government goes to extraordinary lengths to control its own population. perhaps the most extreme example, xinjiang, where muslim uighur people have faced systematic repression. but the principal of authoritarian control runs much deeper. my guest today is wu'er kaixi, a political dissident in exile, part of the 1989 tiananmen generation. he is himself a uighur. has beijing effectively snuffed out the spirit of tiananmen?

wu'er kaixi in taiwan, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much. thank you for having me back. it is a pleasure to have you on the show. i think we must begin with what is happening in xinjiang, particularly to the uighur muslim communities in xinjiang. there is a rising level of international condemnation at what the chinese government is doing. as you watch this situation very closely, do you see any sign china is modifying its policies? small signs here and there, but not in the general picture. for instance, there is one country, turkey, being a muslim country and also, we share very common cultural and ethnic routes. the president of turkey has expressed his condemnation to china, perhaps one of the very few islamic country leaders who have done it. because a large

number of uighur live have done it. because a large number of uighurlive in turkey, it creates a tension domestically in the turkish politics. therefore, chinese government decided to calm turkey down by releasing some of the people in the camp who have relatives in turkey. altogether, a few thousand perhaps. in compare engine, we believe more than 1.5 million uighur in the concentration camp, that little change, without qualifier, your definition of changing the policy. —— in comparison.” know you are one of the chairman of one of the uighur campaigning groups that do so much work internationally. of course, many people around the world know you because of your

pro—democracy and freedom activities in china in 1989, which led to your exile from the country after the tiananmen protests ended in bloodshed. you now feel yourself, and identify more as uighur than chinese? well, i'm a born uighurand my chinese? well, i'm a born uighur and my parents are both uighurs. i spoke their language at home when i was worn and raised in beijing. when you are a member of a minority group raised in beijing. when you are a member ofa minority group in a member ofa minority group in a large, overwhelmingly mineable lies at the group, you do actually have a stronger sense of your birth identity —— marginalised group. discrimination against uighurs in china is everywhere. yes, i have a very strong sense of uighur, even back then when i was the leader of the chinese democracy movement.

democratizing china as no conflict or fighting for uighurs, identity rights. if the days of the 1989 student movement perhaps is the only 50 days that i felt absolutely no discrimination from my peers, from my classmates. it also gives us an interesting perspective that when you fight forfreedom, perspective that when you fight for freedom, freedom perspective that when you fight forfreedom, freedom kind of brings a quality. when you're concentrating on the concept of freedom, you forget to discriminate other people based on their ethnics —— brings the quality. hang on. i have to interrupt you to point out that china isn't confronting activists fighting for freedom. it is simply confronting what it calls the three evil forces of separatism, terrorism and

extremism. china argues it conducts the policy across the country. it happens that the threat of extremism and separatism is at its greatest right now and xinjiang. maybe there are many chinese outside of xinjiang who sympathise with that view. if you keep trying to exploit labour people from their self—identity, they want to get independent. yes, they see independence is one of the ways to preserve their identity, their culture. so the separatism, and i do agree that there are separatism sentiments in xinjiang in the last 70 yea rs. in xinjiang in the last 70 years. that's because of the chinese communist pa rty‘s suppression. if the chinese communist party has always treated us equally, we probably wouldn't have as nearly as this kind of sentiment. we were part

of the mongol empire. we were pa rt of the mongol empire. we were part of the —— we were quite content with that. 0nly part of the —— we were quite content with that. only when chinese came to rule uighur people, they don't want to just rule. they want to exploit us, and that is unacceptable and that has led to the separatism. how satisfied are you with the international response to what we have seen? the bbc has done a great deal of reporting based on documentation and secretly filmed video on the truth behind what is happening in xinjiang. very recently, we saw testimony from one detainee, a young man who described he was amongst a whole group of people who are forced to wear the so—called four piece suit, including a headset, handcuffs, lead shackles and others talked about voluntary schools that in

fa ct, about voluntary schools that in fact, our detention centres. we seen fact, our detention centres. we seen the internment camps in terms of secure video. —— are detention centres. i appreciate bbc‘s efforts. i appreciate british sentiment when coming to this, we do have a strong moral sentiment you feel you wa nt to moral sentiment you feel you want to do something, but at the same time, a media outfit like bbc also hold another moral outfit that we need more evidence to report. well, let's not forget during world war ii, the whole world only discovered the whole world only discovered the existent of the holocaust weeks before for liberating berlin. hang on. isn't that a dangerous comparison? as soon as you make a comparison with

the deaths camps —— death camps where more than 6 million people were exterminated, you are entering very dangerous territory. you may be accused of massive, massive over exaggeration. this is also another opinion, you do not wa nt to another opinion, you do not want to exaggerate. at the very idea we don't want to exaggerate kind of limit you from reporting the truth. because you don't have enough evidence. the suppressed people we re evidence. the suppressed people were asked to provide that evidence, so in all these moral standards have somehow contradicted each other, but i'm glad at the end, the sense of reporting the truth from bbc has overcome. we also of course have to send many workers who risk their lives to provide

those little evidence the world is seen today. but the fact is much more overwhelming than the little evidence the world is seeing. then the comparison is very much compatible. the same thing happened, maybe the members are not happy, but this is the 21st century. in the zist is the 21st century. in the 21st century, you get1 million people in concentration camps is something the world should feel the same outrage when they discover the existence of the holocaust. in june of this year, donald trump was specifically asked why he hadn't enacted us treasury sanctions against communist party officials based on evidence emerging from xinjiang about the treatment of the uighurs, and he responded by saying , " uighurs, and he responded by saying," we're in the middle of a major trade deal." what do you make of that? the last 30 yea rs, you make of that? the last 30 years, the world is in this trade deal. with china. the

united states is in a trade war, but great britain and all of europe and every other democratic free country, the whole world in the last 30 yea rs, whole world in the last 30 years, at the very least decided to talk trade with china only. then i called it, ifi china only. then i called it, if i remember clearly in your show last time when i appeared five years ago, i said this is appeasement. donald trump is a businessman who became a world leader, but at least from his perspective, and he sees this trade deal is not benefiting america either. so the whole world, it it's time to realise to get out of this trade deal and talk about some basic human rights. isn't the truth that the space for political dissent in china has become vanishingly

small? this is the point that goes far beyond xinjiang and the uighur community. china now has a system of surveillance, monitoring and control of its own population far beyond xinjiang, which makes it impossible to imagine that the so—called spirit of tnm that you are a part of could ever be revived —— spirit of tiananmen. do you agree? the spirit is very much they are, it's just being suppressed. the level, the strengths of the suppression that you just described, we still have people are trying to stand up and challenge this regime. in this challenge, we are hoping the world could stand on the right side. at that trade deal has kind of made us, the spirit of tiananmen feeling awfully lonely in china in the streets of hong kong. may be, and i put

it bluntly, maybe you're out of touch. i'm looking at the words ofa touch. i'm looking at the words of a tiananmen axilla ‘s —— activists, who said recently overseas movements have tried to encourage the dissidents inside china, but the chinese authorities are forcing civil society groups to cease operations. the government there has been assessable in breaking our connection to many chinese dissidents. yes. it that your reality? first of all, i have been living in exile for over 30 years now. yes, i have been out of touch from china and out of touch with my parents body. i haven't seen my parents for 30 something years. why? because the chinese government decided that they would put us in this position. morally, we should not be blamed for that, but let me also report this to you, sir. the information flow outside of china is much, much

more free than in china. so if we are out of touch, i can guarantee you 1 million chinese people, they are much more out of touch with the reality than we are. ijust want of touch with the reality than we are. i just want to of touch with the reality than we are. ijust want to quote the words of a woman quoted in time magazine on this very question of whether chinese people are deeply unhappy with the element of authoritarian control in their society. she was a shopkeeper. she described the tv surveillance cameras both inside and outside her own business, and she said this. "chinese people don't care about privacy. above all, we wa nt about privacy. above all, we want security." "for me, it's still not enough cameras. we wa nt still not enough cameras. we want more." again, they do not have an option of having more or less. that's the thing.

whatever narrative you ask of chinese people, you should bear that in mind. they are being forced into positions without any say. i read an american firm to say something like 85 or higher number of the chinese people feel satisfied with their regime. it was a study conducted by an independent institution in the united states. they were shocked and asked me my opinion of that. i saidi asked me my opinion of that. i said i was pretty sure that's not accurate, because it was described as the highest number in the world. i said because you haven't had a chance to conduct a survey in north korea. if you do that, maybe north korea would be number one. so what that really —— that really gives you a clear picture. interview with north korean people about their government, that the naive mistake the western world, free world and bbc should not make.

let me ask you about hong kong, because i know is a freedom and democracy activists, you watch the situation there very closely. the imposition of the new national security law we've seen, a number of arrest including high—profile media figures since the imposition of that national security law. fear is that there any space left for dissent and for a pro—democracy activism in hong kong. we spoke recently on hardtalk to nathan law, the leader of the movement was gone into exile. do you believe that the pro—democracy activists inside hong kong are now going to face as much repression as in the rest of china? yes. yes. very much so. let's not forget this was a cityjust 20—something years ago belonged to this world, the free world. then you lost one of your cities to a totalitarian block,

to the other side. you lost a city. then the people in that city. then the people in that city are fighting for survival. in the united kingdom, we have learned your government have taken, some call encouraging but it's a little late. we should have not trusted china from the very beginning. that's the key. the world somehow decided from the trade deal, i'm sure that's where it's come from, that the —— we are dissidents. we are own a medically filtered out because they are dissident, we cannot... let me repeat what we have been telling the world and keep saying these days that we told you so. the true character

of the chinese communist party regime is like they are greedy. they are not necessarily very sophisticated or smart, but they are externally greedy and they are externally greedy and they only understand the one way to deal with them is to submit to them. the world has somehow felt engagement can change china, and engagement policy the world has had in the last 30 years have changed the world, not china. it's time to learn. it seems to me is you speakfrom learn. it seems to me is you speak from taiwan about the evils, as you see it, of the chinese communist party and you encourage the international community to, and your view, get real and impose tougher sanctions on china. the danger you face is that people inside your own home country of china will simply see you as somebody but training the nation. nationalism is a potent force

inside china, and all the words you give to me run counter to much of the popular nationalist sentiment inside the country. it's a completely blocked, controlled environment. in that environment, people can think with very few options. that can change so rapidly when it's liberated by the flow of information. i have seen it here in taiwan, for instance. i have seen in many liberated countries from totally terror regime. that shouldn't be the main concern of the world. it's not the main concern of mine. i'd like you to address my specific point about nationalist sentiment. i'm looking at some words from ambassador who said people in china live better, happier, longer lives. we have achieved

so much, and people around the world should now understand china is not a country you can kick around. many ordinary chinese people feel that way, too. do they not? you can take that sentence out of the mountains of hitler in 1930. should not give british people of —— more sense of alertness? the economic development in china happened because of the technology developed, and they had been sending what they looted from the revolution. that's not because of communist party. the communist party gives a three—year society to chinese people from where was my from their own even more brutal ruling in the cultural revolution. should the communist party be given credit for their lesser control? and

letting the world's money flow into it? i'm not asking the world to take a tougher step, i'm asking the world to be more honest, that's it. people will form their own judgements about your comparisons of the government in china with hitler and fascist. they will make their own judgement and fascist. they will make their ownjudgement on and fascist. they will make their own judgement on that, but i just their own judgement on that, but ijust wonder their own judgement on that, but i just wonder whether you're running a risk here. use sit in taiwan. there are many older and younger, particularly from hong kong, dissidents, credit from the chinese regime who have moved to taiwan. we seen massive chinese military exercises in the taiwan straits lately, and we know the chinese government's position to quote the president is that ultimately, unification is inevitable. do not see that there is a very real prospect there is a very real prospect the medium to long—term that china may well move against

taiwan? because increasingly, it will see taiwan as a best of opponents of the communist party —— a nest? opponents of the communist party -- a nest? the danger is a lwa ys party -- a nest? the danger is always there. if we considered china as one of the biggest threats to the world's civilization we are living in, taiwan is in the blast zone. let me use taiwanese people's sentiment to answer a question. these people live in this island. when they breathe in and out, they know the air they are breathing in and out is called freedom. they earned it and they determined —— are determined to defendant. taiwan deserves to be recognised as one of the greatest, most vivid democracies. yet, the world, this honest world, excludes taiwan from the club a democracy. why? because china said so. china said they would

reunify. taiwan is always part of china. taiwan was never really always part of china. taiwan has its own government, its own society. as i said, it's free society too. then you may lose this partner as a free country, and just like you have lost hong kong, i hope it's not too late to salvage. let me end with this question for you. you've been a pro—democracy activist and a critic of beijing for a very long time. if you're honest with yourself today, look at the relative strength, resolve and strategic vision of the united states, the so—called leader of the free world. then look at china with its ambitions and strategic vision. which actually seems stronger right now. very same system in -- sentiment used to describe that in the 19 30s. being a

dissident in china for many yea rs, dissident in china for many yea rs , we dissident in china for many yea rs, we deserve dissident in china for many years, we deserve the world —— just urged the world. pushing towards democracy is responsibility, please do not ta ke responsibility, please do not take the wrong spied. thank you very much for giving me this platform. it is a threat to the society we are living in. let's make that comparison, china and the world. if the world cannot reunify against china, like you wa nt to reunify against china, like you want to say to have... what was the word? the use of peace or appeasement. so it's time for the world to really think from my perspective. as i've been saying, i told you so, please don't dismiss our voice simply because we are dissidents. we

may have a good point because we are dissidents. wu'er kaixi, we are dissidents. wu'er kaixi, we have to end they are, but i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. my pleasure. thank you very much. hello there. we had lots of thunderstorms across england and wales on sunday, but it's not every day you see one of these. yes, a waterspout that formed out in the bristol channel, and this was seen by a number of our weather watchers, actually, from north somerset. it was also spotted around the newport area of south wales as well. that was all associated with this low pressure that's across northern france.

we can see an occlusion. this band of cloud here that brought some thunderstorms across eastern england, and they were torrential. 28 mm of rain on sunday fell in bedford. looking at the weather picture at the moment, this system, essentially, is going to split into two bits, with this branch not really making much progress further north. that means the rain will continue to affect greater manchester, lancashire, merseyside along with wales for a time, before easing later in the night. it won't really push that much farther north. that means the far north of england, northern ireland and scotland stay largely dry over the next few hours, but with low cloud, there'll be some mist and fog patches, and maybe a little bit of drizzle around some of the eastern coasts in scotland as well. for the rest of monday, the low pressure will continue to move its way in, and that will bring showers. this time, the showers will be affecting scotland and northern ireland through the afternoon, but it's further south across england and wales that the day's heaviest showers are most likely to be. 20 or30 mm in the space of an hour. again, that's enough to cause some localised flash flooding. in between those showers

and the sunshine, still feeling warm, still a little on the humid side. but we're not finished with the showery story just there, because tuesday will be another showery day. this time, the heaviest showers look more set to go in across northern england and scotland. lots of thunder and lightning, a bit of hail mixed in with some of these fewer showers in the south. still one or two fairly pokey ones as we go into the afternoon. beyond that, we see some changes in the weather. this area of low pressure slow—moving, will be with us for much of the rest of the week with fresher air following this cold front through. it means on wednesday, many of us start off on a dry note, but the cloud and rain will spread in across northern ireland, england and wales. eventually, it will turn a fair bit windier across the southwest. a fair bit windier gusts of around 30—a0 miles an hour, all the while staying largely dry in scotland through the afternoon with sunshine. fresher air then arrives from thursday onwards, but that's not an end to the wet story. it stays unsettled with rain or showers to take us into next weekend.

this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. i'm aaron safir. chanting. in belarus, huge crowds fill the streets in one of the biggest protests yet against the president. but alexander lu kashenko remains defiant, telling his supporters he won't give up his country after a week of demonstrations against his contested re—election. us house speaker nancy pelosi announces a vote to prevent changes in postal services ahead of the election. as the democratic party prepares to hold its national convention, we take a look at how the party faithful view their

presidential candidate