ned? your views of all of that? the leading kremlin critic, alexei navalny, is in berlin i want to build on something receiving emergency treatment that isobel said. after a suspected attempt to poison him in russia. that is that it is a crucial mr navalny‘s supporters have described his condition as very question because we are in a period where, pre—covid, worrying and say he's been the target of an assassination bid. russia denies any involvement. there was this tide of populist nato has dismissed claims leaders, one strand by the president of belarus of which was the notion that of a troop build—up experts don't matter, on its border as baseless. the civil service is part nato said it posed no threat to of some nefarious deep state. belarus or any other country. alexander lukashenko has been facing mass protests since claiming victory in a contested presidential election earlier this month. and it drew on a kind of sense of alienation from existing institutions, distrust of government, anger. and covid has been a wake—up call. and isobel is completely right. now on bbc news it's time most of the successful cases of mere competence are governments run by women, but they share other things. for dateline london. they have followed the science, the facts, they have communicated well,

they've told the truth to their own people. and as a result, by and large, they have brought people along with them. hello, and welcome and that's what governments, to dateline london. in theory, in this pre—populist this week: new us sanctions age, werejudged on. on chinese telecoms giant, huawei — death sentence or chance to shine? and the competence or otherwise and what's going to be of your ruling class — the truth according fascinating now is whether this to coronavirus. renewed sense that my guests on socially government actually matters, and that distanced screen — when you're faced with isobel hilton of the website, china dialogue, ned temko a crisis, particularly a crisis of the christian science monitor. like covid, which can't be tweeted away, which doesn't listen to rhetoric, and here in the studio — doesn't follow vincent ni of the bbc world a particular ideology — what you need a government service. "victorious warriors win to do is do itsjob. first and then go to war, defeated warriors go to war people like jacinda ardern in new zealand, angela merkel, with a scientific background herself in germany. and i'll take one first and then seek to win." non—woman example. and there aren't many. after a disastrous start,

wisdom from china's favourite strategy manual, the state governor of new york, the art of war. it may have been written 2,500 years ago, but chinese leaders and tech bosses may be reciting in the united states, favourite sun tzu quotes andrew cuomo, who, by and large at each other this weekend followed the ardern and merkel as the us imposes a near playbook — which was follow blanket ban on the supply the science, communicated clearly a nd of computer chips to huawei. ned, i'll start off with you.. is there is a us attempt as a result, got his own constituents and citizens to kill off huawei? to follow him. i think even among the most hawkish voices on china in the trump administration, there is a recognition that horse has bolted, it is simply impossible to talk about destroying a company and i suppose one other women of the size and international to add to the list — reach of huawei, which after all is either the second there are a number — largest or largest smartphone is tsai ing—wen of taiwan. taiwan having a very notably low death rate. vincent, i want to ask if there is a third group? we have talked about the successful a nd u nsuccessful, but is there a third group that started slow but have actually producer in the whole world. risen to the challenge? i mean, some might say that might include xi jinping of china, for example. well, obviously, china was initially criticised for the initial handling of the coronavirus. very much on the table and then china dealt is a desire to cut huawei down with it quite well. to size, specifically, this week, there was in image to limit its participation, if possible to eliminate its participation, in the next generation of 56

telecommunications network, at least in western countries. circulating on the internet in wuhan, where the virus was first reported, where thousands there is a real concern of people were having a pool party. in washington, and to a certain this shows that china is it handling quite well. degree in other european countries now, about there is also damage done the security implications to china's image globally of too great an involvement because china was the first of huawei in things like 56. victim of the virus, then chinese diplomats started engaging in conspiracy theories with american diplomats, and then you see this tit—for—tat. you know, this is time of great health and political crisis. it needs collaboration, although it is nominally it needs two superpowers a privately held company, it has benefited from enormous to come together to talk state financial support, and like any private company in an economy about the solution, rather which is essentially than engaging in this sort of tit—for—tat conspiracy theories. you're not about national leadership, but global leadership? controlled by the state, the absence thereof? exactly. given the two economies, military sizes, etc — it is ultimately beholden to they should naturally take the state, to the government, a global leadership approach and even to the chinese when it security services, so that's comes to global goods, a global a real concern. the only thing i would add is that this is notjust health crisis for example. about technology, it is not

even just about trade wars — it is something that has to be and you talk about taiwan, tsai ing—wen was credited seen in a wider political for handling this context because it is crisis quite well. we are talking about the competency of leadership, we are also talk about the competency of state also about politics. institutions. but a lot of credit to her we will come to that, deputy, a us trained but let's stay with huawei for a moment. huawei has had two years under intense american pressure, has that been long enough to stockpile the chips epidemiologist. that they need to survive? on top of that, i would also say there is a trust in state huawei would say yes, depending on how long institutions which it that would be. is very important. these days in asia, a lot of people are still questioning why there is still such political debate in the west the company claims it when it comes to wearing has two years worth of chips stockpiled. face masks or not. good question. hasn't everyone agreed analysts would probably to wear a face mask now? think that is overblown, governments, at least. it's more like six months. i would like to give the last few minutes of the programme to talk about a story we haven't had a chance to cover yet. i don't think that would make it any less serious ned, what has caught your even if they have there to make eye in the past week? the years, because then one thing that i think would be

there is the question of what happens then. ned was describing, getting a lot more play, if you like, the first phase of us hostility to huawei, which was about trying to limit and credit to the bbc, huawei's markets, so trying to exclude from 56 and so on. the bbc is it giving some play, this is about huawei's is the plight capacity to manufacture. 90% of huawei's productions need semiconductors. when the us department of alexei navalny, the russian opposition leader, of commerce put huawei's rivals who apparently was poisoned on the list two years ago, and has now been evacuated to germany for medical care. it found itself in the same situation — cut off from a supply of american chips. four months later, the company was pretty much on its knees more broadly, russian politics, and xi jinping had to call which in this age of covid has gotten much less donald trump and ask attention than it for a favour, which donald might ordinarily do. trump duly granted. although huawei has not been particularly the move planning for sustained hostilities, the fundamental earlier this year by problem remains that you cannot just switch suppliers. vladimir putin, the president, whom navalny has consistently criticised, huawei actually does manufacture a kind of custom made chip, but it relies on us to amend the constitution design and licensing. and in effect end term limits it is really stymied at this and give him a pathway to become president for life. point, and so it's best bet, thanks for bringing that one to our attention. isobel, what about you? i suppose — absent an an improvement in the us—china relationship, which is pretty uncertain — is that the chinese well, i have to say, government puts sufficient i was momentarily cheered backing and sufficient by the news this initiative into developing week of the arrest

of steve bannon on fraud and money china's own capacity laundering charges. only perhaps balanced by the fact that that the woman to produce these chips. who supports the conspiracy theories of qanon was succeeded in getting a nomination for a congressional seat. so you have got this extraordinary persistence of very, very wild conspiracy theories, which pretty much, you know, so far that hasn't steve bannon was instrumental in laying really worked. the ground for all of that in his earlier career. there are technologies that and i think it's absolutely china hasn't mastered. we tend to think it is now a technological superpower, characteristic that in some sectors it is. in at the end he would be brought down, if proved but in others, itjust to be his downfall, isn't and it's not easy. through rather cheap fraud right now, you have a situation perpetrated on a rather in which no company which uses gullible public. allegations, charges any form of us technology at the moment, rather than a conviction. or licensing is allowed to supply huawei. and we should also say in the case of the navalny, sudden sickness, that is suspected poisoning, not yet confirmed by medical staff. in the short term, vincent, what about you?

you might expect the chinese to cheat a bit. is there been a story that so, companies not on the entity has jumped out for you? list, being coerced to putting i have been paying a lot their chips huawei's way. of attention to belarus. again, that is not a solution. president lukashenko has vowed to crush these protests in the next few days. this is quite unfortunate vincent, what is your take on this? if it happens. we haven't talked about whether there's any room today, we have been talking for retaliation from beijing in support of what, after all, is a national champion. a lot about sun tzu and his china's biggest weapon is a strong consumer market. i think china will be holding wisdom, talking about the art off on that because we do not of winning a war, but he also know who will be in has something to say about the white house next year. the art of leadership. isobel talked about he said that a good leader semiconductors which is really leads by example, not by force. at the core of any sophisticated technology. indeed, much of the american in this day and age, it's very easy for authoritarian leaders investment in china to threaten their population with using state forces. is about high technology. but then we have also seen in the past these tactics often backfire. for example, one of the larger semiconductor manufacturers so words of wisdom found in the world is an american in china notjust applies company, which gained two to china, but also to europe. thirds of its revenue from chinese markets. so i think china would also benefit from the existence and that lu kashenko of american point, though. congratulations on his victory technology companies. from beijing and from moscow. yep. whatever sun tzu thought

coming back to the point that 2,500 years ago, the fact ned made about this being part that the domination of force of a wider strategic front in your country can secure between the us and china you all kinds of victories. as the world's two yeah, absolutely. big superpowers. we obviously now have on the table, notjust huawei and big tech, notjust this speaks to the world we're living in today. cancelled trade talks, we have a rise in authoritarian leadership which has loosely formed a camp but also hong kong, in supporting each other south china sea, taiwan, when it comes to crises. xinjiang. how will these issues play but we have also seen, at the same time, the west is trying to form in a us presidential election? alliances with themselves to counter countries like china or russia. and at the moment, there it is a fairly long menu. i'm not sure in what detail is no global leadership. each of those issues will play. what is certain is that us—china relations writ large are going to be a big deal. and what we have seen is camps and alliances with each other. and a quick word on that, belarus. going back to the russian story that ned was talking about. isobel, a word on that situation and what the outside world does about russia? one reason is that president how many seconds do i have donald trump has made china to solve the russia problem? a kind of a key issue in the sense that it's a way any sign of any kind

of organisational coherence of deflecting accusations from europe and north about the us federal government's response or lack of response to the covid pandemic on to china. that is clearly been the strategy for some months america on the issue? now. ithink, actually, the eu is becoming increasingly coherent in its approach both to russia and china. and as the us electoral season gets under way, i think increasingly it is now aligned with the steady ship in global an attempt to try and paint diplomacy is going to be joe biden and the democratic europe. and ned, a line party, as a whole, as somehow soft on china. in a way, you have a kind from you to close? of political arms race emerging i just think this underlines in which both major parties are going to be talking a lot the importance of the november tougher on china. add to that the fact that there is genuine concern presidential election, and upset among, for instance, because among the many senior democrats in congress over the crackdown in things on the ballot hong kong, over the treatment is the contrast between trump's of the uighur muslims and the confinement camps on the mainland. kind of go—it—alone foreign generally, there is a chill in superpower relations, which is not helped by the fact policy, if you can call that popular views of china and the us are at it that, and a more traditional a low for many years. in part due to the background approach which joe biden and the democrats when it is likely to begin with a reinvigoration

of old alliances. we have to leave it there. effects of the covid pandemic. thank you to all three of my guests. that's it for dateline london for this week — we're back next week at the same time. goodbye. isobel, going to the actual meat of the arguments between the us and china and the strategic ways that they play out and sun tzu's victorious warrior analogy, is there a side that has made sure to win before going to war or is there a risk of this calculation in washington or beijing? hello there. can you hear me? saturday saw some heavy showers across the uk, more developing. i'm sorry, i didn't some rain coming into northern ireland, so is putting into realise that was for me. southern scotland, northern england, moving into wales, the there is clearly miscalculation. midlands and eventually into the south. the is heavy and trump makes a lot of noise about his china policy, particularly on things like potentially boundary. tariffs, which are damaging brightening up, and wasn't and paid for by the shown across wales in the american consumer. south—west, woods will be even this technological war, if apple loses its china lighter on sunday, turning market, it's a big deal for north—westerly in scotland, them so there are definitely where away from the south it missteps and own goals. should be largely dry with some

sunshine but cooler air here. our host images probable 22—23 in the south—east ahead of those heavier showers. loud and patchy rain running is with i do not see much confidence on either side, quite honestly. across england and wales on i don't think donald trump monday morning to be followed is famous for planning. by some sunshine, a few we like to think china showers, the winds will be is famous for planning, quite light and temperature 17 although that might be a bit overblown. on the one hand, i think in the centre about, 21 in the south—east of england. a quiet xi jinping has benefited from the mistakes of start of the week, things the current us administration, but at the same time change overnight into tuesday, he has overreached. perhaps into wednesday. more as ned said, china's reputation gals across the uk, there may around the world is pretty low. i think in terms of how well be some travel disruption, china sees the situation, particularly across the southern half of the country. leaving aside its own internal difficulties, i think that china is fairly confident that its particular combination of state power and business muscle remains strong, they have this huge internal market if the worst comes to the worst. xi does give the impression of steady leadership, but neither leader is gaining popularity in the world. the question of global leadership remains contested. after all, to be a leader, you need to have willing followers. the chinese system does not

appeal to many parts of the world any more than the person of donald trump appeals to any part of the world. it is easier to fix the donald trump question than the chinese system, so i guess in the long run the united states will recover its position. but i don't see this as a win for either side right now. vincent, how do you read the situation inside china? you spend a lot of time watching the formation of policy in china. who are the voices, who makes the policy and such a vital relationship such

as us and china? when it comes to such a relationship, it is ultimately the politburo and xi jinping who calls the shots. welcome to bbc news. there is also some really i'm james reynolds. our top stories: interesting debate coming out of china, it is a pity it is not often covered the us house of representatives votes to pass an emergency bill by english language media. to inject $25 billion there is a perception outside into america's cash—strapped of china that there is only one postal service. strand of thinking in china, the russian opposition leader, alexei navalny, remains in hospital in germany. his supporters say his condition is very worrying. but actually some of them have lithuania and poland deny claims that nato is building up its forces along their borders with belarus. tiktok takes on trump. had some very thought provoking the chinese company behind ideas on us—china relations. the social media app says it for example, a professor who famously criticised will sue the us government. the president. and football's biggest club trophy is up for grabs the former academic later on sunday — from the central party? central part square, the champions league final — the core of the communist party ruling in the country. these are the voices that are brewing in the country, they do exist in china. going back to isobel's point,

i think this is exactly where the problem lies. at the moment, us and china leaders are trying to undermine each other with all sorts of interesting tactics, but we do not know exactly what they want. in other words, it is about lack of leadership, it is also about a lack of vision. that brings us to our second large topic of the programme. what do you want in a leader? americans, tanzanians, new zealanders and others will ask themselves this question in elections over the coming weeks. but we've all been forced to ponder the question in the eight months since the coronavirus pandemic tested public life across the globe. have we changed our view of what constitutes competence and have our leaders changed accordingly? isobel? it seems to me that what we want in a leader, based on the data now

emerging from the pandemic, is that you are far better off if your leader is a woman. that is more than an impression, there was a recent study in more than 170 countries which measured pandemic performance in terms of death rate and so on. the countries led by women came out way in the front — the leaders were responsive and willing to take risks, they locked down earlier and listened to the science more intelligently. they suffered fewer deaths by a factor of six in some cases, they came out earlier and stronger. the majority of countries led by men, the worst ones appeared to be brazil, the us and the uk. again, judged on the data. what do they have in common? well, all of these three are insurgent governments — leaders who came in promising to smash the system which they claimed was not working. so they are not collaborative, they are using untested theories, and they have a very low willingness to use the machinery of government intelligently. the machinery of government, we can complain about bureaucracy, but when the civil service works, it is there to stop politicians making complete idiots of themselves by pointing out their bright

ideas were tried 20 years ago and didn't it work then and won't work now. that is a very important safety net when you have an untested set of politicians. so it's all a bit of a disaster. the second factor, i would say, is that in an insurgent government, ideology tends to matter more than competence. so you tend to have loyal ministers, chosen for loyalty and not necessarily for their past performance. when they make mistakes, as we have discovered in this country, they are not sacked because loyalty matters more than anything. that is a set of characteristics, honestly, 00:16:24,630 --> 4294966103:13:29,430 you do not want in a leader.