hello this is bbc news. the headlines. university lecturers warn that plans to reopen universities in september will be too dangerous without a coronavirus testing programme. we are really worried that we can see universities becoming the care home of any second wave of covid—19 in the uk. happy birthday, mr president! thousands of anti—government demonstrators take to the streets of minsk again — to protest at what they believe is the rigged re—election of the belarus president. the crowd here shouting, disgrace. disgrace, they are shouting. and they're shouting the message to the people over there. look at all those riot police that have come out. that is why these protests are different.

police have criticised "irresponsible" actions after thousands of people attended unlicensed raves in norfolk and south wales. lewis hamilton wins in belgium — he's nowjust two victories away from michael schumacher‘s all—time record. more on sportsday. sportsday is still to come, in just over ten minutes‘ time. now, bbc media editor amol rajan interviews the outgoing director general tony hall, looking back at his seven years in the role. tony hall, thank you for talking to bbc news. in preparation for this interview i have spoken to many present and former colleagues of yours, senior figures in tv and politics,

and i should say in the spirit of transparency that the consensus among them is that of you were a highly effective dg someone who had probably the hardestjob ofany dg. but there was one common criticism that many made, and i think you know what's coming, and it's about the deal that you struck with the government back in 2015 to take on the cost of tv licences for the over—75s, something which you now say the bbc cannot afford. it looked like a bad deal back then, why did you agree to it? let me take you back to 2015. against everyone's expectations you had an incoming majority conservative government, so the lib dems and their break on the government in the past, the coalition had gone, you had a government which was full—on austerity, a feeling that the bbc needed reform. i think it was a really, really perilous time for the bbc. move forward to a monday morning where, not suspecting this

was going to happen, the then secretary of state rings me and says, it was thenjohn whittingdale, he says, "i have tried over the weekend, but it hasn't worked, the treasury are insistent on this, they are going to impose on you the over—75s." you mean by that george osborne, just to be really clear? yes. at which point i said that is nuclear, that means closing bbc two, bbc three, bbc four, local radio, some radio networks and probably some other things as well. understand that is the scale of you are... did you threaten to resign over that? i felt, i thought about resigning but at that moment i thought you've got to get in there and try to stop this, or ameliorate what they are proposing to do. it was very clear very, very quickly that there was no possibility of stopping this. did you make clear to them that this is a welfare payment and that is what governments do, and not broadcasters?

yes, we made all those arguments were kind of laid out, every single one of those arguments was very, very highly fought. it was one of the most difficult and tense set of negotiations or discussions i have ever had. i don't want to repeat it, we ended up after some more meetings with george osborne and the then chairman of the bbc trust, rona fairhead, running through the amelioration which we had won from them for the over—755. one was that we would have a license fee that would go up with inflation for the first time in over a decade, secondly, some imposts that were on the bbc for broadband and other things would be removed, thirdly what was called a "digital loophole", that those who were not viewing, were viewing rather online would have to pay the license fee. and what the result of that was, as we worked it out, including some reform of the over—75s, which is that you had a cash flat settlement. now again, let me just take you back to that period.

cash flat at that time was a settlement only achieved if i recall by the nhs, everyone else was taking a hard cut. so, you know, from the point of view of where we were at that time, a majority conservative government, that was really important. we won a charter for ii years with the license fee being the method for funding the bbc. that was right against all the orthodoxy of the people who were coming at us at the time, we have got that and i think that is important because the bbc now has that amount of time, until 2027 to ensure it is in excellent shape. the fact is at the end of that negotiation which you led for the bbc, the bbc had a time bomb placed underneath it, and that time bomb is going off just as you are leaving. you call it a time bomb, i say we have come to a solution which is an absolutely fair solution, which is that those who cannot afford to pay the license don't have to pay for it, if you are on pension credit. those who can afford to pay the license fee are paying for it... what about those, forgive me for interrupting... crosstalk.

that is actually a very fair way of looking for payments. but for a lot of people this is a very painful choice, there are hundreds of thousands or millions of people in this country who love the bbc, who have supported the bbc for years and who have got used to having it forfree. why are you now actively hurting those people and saying you have got to pay for something you have been getting for free? you have got to go back and say who is actually responsible for this? this is something that a then majority conservative government put on the bbc. we ameliorated it. let's come forward to the present government. have you been into number ten, obviously before the pandemic, to see borisjohnson and dominic cummings since the election? no, i haven't. i saw dominic cummings during the election but i have not been in since then, no. how did your conversation with dominic cummings go during the election? was it pre or after andrew neill had empty chaired? it was before. i mean actually, it was an intelligent conversation, he asked very good questions about the nature of the bbc and the kind ofjournalism that he and i would believe in. what was your reaction when you saw a sunday times splash back

in february that said number ten were going to "whack" the bbc? i thought that was wholly wrong and i wondered whether that would actually, quite who in number ten was saying that, was it the prime minister or someone else. do you think it was dominic cummings? i don't know. negotiation with the government is one part of yourjob, another type of negotiation for which you're going to be remembered is that which you have done with many of the people you work with. and specifically how you have approached the imbalance in pay between men and women at this organisation. were you shocked when you looked at the top of that list and saw how dominated it was my men? by some of the old deals... yeah, but these were deals which were done, to be honest with you, amol, and i'm not passing any blame here, but these were done before my time. but that's interesting, because i don't think this has been discussed enough in public. to what extent did you feel, as someone who is again sorting out something of a mess, that your hands were tied by contractual negotiations, by legal obligations from before your time? a lot, to be frank, and i think all of us felt we were sorting out problems which were a generation old.

why did it take so long to sort out carrie grace's pay? i think the organisation responded too slowly, i completely agree with you on that. but, you know, iwish we could have done that faster, but that is a very specific example and i don't really want to go much further than that. let's look at the talent management problem that you inherited, and that isjeremy clarkson. why are you laughing? i likejeremy a lot, i think he is actually a real talent and that was a very hard decision, and... he was...a very special sort of person at the bbc. but look, you go back to your values. i mean, jeremy did something that you just can't accept. you just can't, and that is where in any of these issues, your values have to come in. did you break the news to him? idid. we met on a number of occasions and we have met since, by the way,

and i am a big fan of his, and i think... i am sorry he left, because he was a particular voice that the bbc kind of needed but... could you have disciplined him but kept him? when i came back to the bbc there was a lot of right discussion about bullying and harassment. people felt strongly that some people got away with it and others didn't. you simply couldn't let jeremy get away with it, because that would have said to everybody there is a culture for one set of people, and there is a culture for the rest. for many truly national institutions, from the bbc to the monarchy, the struggle to reflect a more diverse, divided and digital britain itself creates deep divisions. injuly, the bbc broadcast of the n word, prompting an outcry. initially it defended the decision, strongly, then paul apologised.

strongly, then hall apologised. i felt strongly that this was a difficult story, this was a story about abuse of somebody, i mean a hit—and—run, racially motivated hit—and—run, but i felt using the n word at that time of day in that report was a mistake. these are difficult decisions, and in the end, occasionally i have intervened as director—general when i felt it was right to say, no, this is what i believe that is what i believe the matter. i have been told something which i want to put to you directly, which is that your instinct, i have been told this by several sources, that your instinct was to actually hold the line, to back david jordan, your director of editorial policy on this issue, but that you were lobbied by members of the bbc board who said there would be mass resignations among ethnic minority broadcasters if you did not apologise, is that correct? no, i was not lobbied... so you didn't have people saying to you that black and ethnic minority members of staff are furious about this? i knew people were furious about it but i felt very strongly it was the right thing to apologise,

and to make clear our collective disquiet about this. is the n word now banned? no, it's not. in fact on the friday before i apologised it was used in a programme about the real thing and it was appropriate, it went through all the guidelines and was appropriately done. no, it is where, when, how often and so on, we need to think very hard about and that is what we are doing. 60 seconds left, do you think bbc four will survive as a linear channel? yes. do you think bbc three will come back as a linear channel? i think that depends a lot on how audiences change post covid environment. i think what we are seeing with covid is people going more on demand. so i think it is a close call. is the bbc actively looking at selling off buildings to raise revenue? what we have also learned from covid is that we could do with fewer buildings. i would be surprised if we didn't sell off a few buildings. did you vote remain? i am not going to tell you how i vote at any point,

and by the way, yeah, i will not tell you how i vote. i thought it was worth a try. what is the editorial or creative high point of your tenure? seeing drama flower in the way it has done. seeing blue planet change people's behaviour on plastics, seeing news cope with crisis after crisis after crisis with huge aplomb, and that sense of local voice that comes from local radio, i absolutely love. what i will miss, in case you want to ask me, is getting out there on the shop floor with people making programmes, i am at heart a programme maker, and the great privilege of being here at the bbc has been to see programme makers doing amazing things. i have never known a time when we have won so many awards for the programmes we have made, and in the end, the argument about the bbc is about the programmes and the services we provide. are they of the highest possible quality, and that is not to do with me, is to do with the many people in this organisation who do amazing things to serve the public with brilliant programming. tony hall, thank you very much indeed for your time.

hello and welcome to sportsday. i'm lizzie greenwood—hughes, the headlines tonight. england complete a thrilling run chase to win the second t20 international against pakistan at old trafford. it's a sparkling spa weekend for lewis hamilton as he strengthens his grip on the formula one championship in belgium. and we'll have the latest on the split emerging at the top of men's tennis.

england beat pakistan by five wickets in the second 2020 international at old trafford. they comfortably reached 196 — the highest run chase by any side against pakistan in the short format. alex gulragani reports. after 20 years away, live cricket was back on bbc television — time to look your best. pakistan certainly did, the tourists at home on the old trafford wicket, and finding the boundary with relative ease. half centuries from barbara amir and mohammad hafeez had them marching ahead to set england a target of 196. a big chase needed a quick start and england got it. england got it. pakistan introduced shadab khan, and he introduced wickets.

bairstow was out, and with the next ball, banton followed suit. pakistani celebrations were halted by eoin morgan. the england captain keeping them in the game with his own half—century. there was a brief wobble is three wickets fell, but england were guided home in the final over by david milan. all the drama you need for your sunday afternoon. we are delighted. i think at the halfway stage we probably thought there was a lot of runs to chase on this ground with the pakistani batsmen posting quite a substantial score but we found when we gathered momentum with partnerships it was actually hard momentum with partnerships it was actually ha rd to momentum with partnerships it was actually hard to stop us scoring but it's nice to come out the other side of it particular with performances with guys at the top of the order and david milan taking another opportunity. when you are in the top three you don't get many opportunities to win games and finish them off especially chasing

190 so to be there at