for the third successive sunday — democracy demonstrators have thronged the streets of the belarusian capital minsk in their tens of thousands. protesters flocked near the official residence of long—time autocratic president — alexander lu kashenko — insisting that he resign and again accusing him of rigging recent elections. the democratic nominee for the us presidential election — joe biden — has accused donald trump of ‘fanning the flames of hate and division‘ in america. his comments came after the president criticised the mayor of the city of portland for failing to stop three months of violence. the united states government has accused russian fighterjets of making what it describes as an ‘unsafe and unprofessional‘ intercept — as the us airforce was flying over the black sea on friday. the american military has released video footage which it says shows russian jets crossing multiple times.

now on bbc news, hardtalk welcome to hardtalk, our ability to inform, communicate and persuade has never been greater and yet, public debate seems more toxic, more divisive than ever before. what is happening. our intolerance and extremism winning out over a reasoned debate. my guest today is the american neuroscientist, philosopher and podcast her, sam harris. he goes into intellectual territory where few others dare tread on race and religion and generates lots of heat, but what about light?

sam harris in california, welcome to hardtalk. happy to be here. you have an extra nearly popular podcast in which you talk with leading intellectuals across the world, but you also express your own opinions in books that you have written, which is more meaningful to you? the conversation, or expression endure strong opinions? a good question. i think i split the difference there because, as you know, i do not do much in the way of standard and interviews. i try to have a conversation. i probably take about 40% of the bandwidth in any interview, i get to hear myself talk to my hearts content and perhaps the exasperation of certain guests.

me choose guests for the podcast, which is listened to by many people across the world, do you like to bring people in, with whom you know and disagree or disagree quite profoundly? a little bit of that goes a long way depending on how profound the disagreements are, but i think what is important is to be able to talk about substantial issues and differences of opinion in a way that is civil and in some kind of solution. i think the only way to make progress is through conversation and it is persuasion. if we cannot persuade one another based on argument and evidence, and the end, we have no appeal but to force, force of numbers, it justis force, force of numbers, it just is really shed the veneer

of civilization pretty quickly. and so, i really do you conversation as a sacred tool. why do you have such faith in conversation and dialogue when we live in an era of digital communication where, frankly, exchange of views and information is easier than ever before and of from easing humanity pots possibility to get along, it seems to be dividing and creating an ever more toxic environment so, your faith and communication may be misplaced? i did not say it was an optimist. i just misplaced? i did not say it was an optimist. ijust see no alternative, that is literally the only tools we have. there is simply no other way to influence the thoughts and opinions and behaviours and intentions of other human

beings. and so, i am quite worried that we have created a kind of psychological experiment that we have run on all of humanity, or most of humanity all at once without anyone‘s consent wherein we have created the circumstance oi’ have created the circumstance or people can be successfully isolated, with respect to certain kinds of dogmas, they can pursue any crazy idea to their hearts content for year after year and find support for it online. the internet is having this dual function of allowing us to get access to the totality of human knowledge and instantaneously, allowing oui’ and instantaneously, allowing our sense making to shatter and oui’ our sense making to shatter and our epistemology and balkanization of thought. our epistemology and balkanization of thoughtlj wa nt balkanization of thought.” wa nt to balkanization of thought.” want to turn to perhaps one of the most contentious debates, frankly tearing america apart

right now, that his race and racism. and how to respond to what many people appears to be the clear evidence of discrimination at every level in american society, including policing and the justice system. you have spoken out against black lives matter. you seem to regard it as a form of identity politics, which you say is a poison. a poison in america today. what say that. first, i acknowledge that racism is still a tremendous problem in american society and globally. in that racism is something that we absolutely have to oppose and criticise and it is a problem of which there is a remedy in pursuing this remedy for many, many decades in the us. but we have made a lot of progress and we are now living in a moment

where we have a moral panic advertise to us and black lives matter is one of the names of this movement and this group, it isa this movement and this group, it is a very loose group and it is making the most noise on this topic at the moment and it is likely made no progress. it is likely made no progress. it is likely made no progress. it is like this moment in american history exemplifies the worst symptoms of racism and, that‘s quite delusional. obviously, we have made a tremendous amount of progress, this is one of the least racist moments in human history generally, globally and in american history and... but, may i stop you, just to point out the obvious that you sit with me, we are both, let‘s be honest, white middle—class

co mforta ble honest, white middle—class comfortable educated people who represent perhaps the dominant group being in our respective society. who are you, in the end, to tell black americans how they should feel right now? because, so many of them look around and the reality of their own lives, their children‘s lives and they see a system which is systemically racist? not least when it comes to the police and they feel it is their right and their duty to express their right and their duty to ex press a their right and their duty to express a level of anger, frustration and an unwillingness to accept that, which is surely understandable. it is important to make very understandable. there is a lot of misunderstanding in misinformation being amplified. if you‘re going to be outraged over the racist behaviour of racist cops, or the racist

consequences of systems that do this, whether there is any actual living racists around to implement those systems. it is not a choice, is it? we are duty to be enraged by that.” miss concerned and as outraged as anyone is about those things. but i am doubly concerned that we do not find racists where they don‘t exist. that, if you‘re going to find racists everywhere, you‘re going to find the real racists nowhere. you‘re going to do an immense harm in the process. take the variable of police violence, it is very important that if you worry about the consequences of racism and the way it is causing black men, preferentially to get shot and killed in america, you have to find out whether in fact that is happening. whether in fact black men are being shot in

greater numbers, right? in proportion to the numbers of encounters they have with police officers and if they‘re having more encounters with police officers per capita, there is an explanation for that other than racism. my concern currently in america is that any disparity you find, whether in respect to police violence or employment, or wealth, or in the area of interest is of great social importance, currently on the left, anywhere you go left of centre politically, the only explanation that is acceptable, and it really does have the kind of quality of a kind of blasphemy testing and religion, the only explanation that is a cce pta ble the only explanation that is acceptable at this moment is white racism. or systemic racism. in police violence, it just so happens that the only data we have suggests that, while african—americans data we have suggests that, while african—america ns have

more encounters with the police, and there is obvious reasons for that, and they are roughed up by the police more than white americans are, they are not killed more. in fact, there killed less than white americans are, per encounter. if you come in to the attention of the police in america and they draw their guns on you. your chances of being shot appeared to be slightly higher if you are white. hang on. that brea ks if you are white. hang on. that breaks everyone‘s expectations. it gets to the heart of your intellectual approach to things. you are a self—proclaimed rationalist, determined to be driven by the evidence, by data, by the signs, not by emotion and still less by things like religion or any other faith—based knowledge or belief system. so, evidence matters, but if you look across the piece, you have a lid on

one piece of evidence but there‘s an overwhelming track of evidence about incarceration rates, but happens to black kids in school, what happens to black people in employment, how many jobless black people black people in employment, how manyjobless black people there are. there is clearly a story in america of systemic discrimination which black people are saying right now, they will no longer tolerate without expressing their anger. and, when you make the point eve made, does sound to some that you are lacking a level of compassion or even of emotional intelligence or ability to empathise with the situation of the other. first of all, it shouldn‘t because i‘m concerned about the real suffering of real people, but we have to acknowledge that we have to compound that suffering when we give false notions about its actual causes. and i am on record every time we touch this

topic, acknowledging that we need criminal justice topic, acknowledging that we need criminaljustice reform in the war on drugs has been a disaster and has especially been a disaster for the disaster and has especially been a disasterfor the black community, all of those things should go without saying and there are changes that need to be made there. but, if you are going to ascribe the status quo across the board, the fact that there is wealth inequality in respect of crime and violence, in american society the bricks along racial lines, if you‘re going to ascribe that to white racism or policies that white people are not changing because it advantages them, you will continually stumble upon the errors of great consequence. it is simply not the case that there are white races with their racism, producing the level of violence that we see

in the black community in the inner—city. in a place like chicago. many black americans, andi chicago. many black americans, and i quote, someone who works asa and i quote, someone who works as a socialjustice coordinator at the humanist association, he has addressed your podcasts on this issue, and he says sam harris definition of racism places an underlying emphasis on intention and he says, that is sam harris defines the number of white people who are races as a tiny minority. but how‘d however,, when discussing racism, it is not about intent, it is about impact in the and that sense, it involves a far greater proportion of the white community. as stated, i would not disagree with that. there are policies that affect and create racist outcomes whether anyone intends it or not, we should figure out what those

policies are in we should change them. that is what people tend to mean by systemic racism or institutional racism. and i‘m completely on board with discovering that in correcting for it. but what we have now in american society are allegations of racism or the experience that people are having, millions of people having, millions of people having simultaneously, watching a video of a police shooting in the prototypical case, be a white cop. sam, we see it. we‘re watching it over and over, jacob lake being shot in wisconsin. i will tell you that that video is not evidence then and of itself is not evidence of racism. you can see videos of racism. you can see videos of white people being shot in precisely the same circumstances. we have a massive problem of guns in our society, we have a massive

problem of poorly trained cops and in that video in particular, there have been several of these problems. when someone rushes to their car in defiance of police commands and opens the door and reaches and, in american society, unlike in the uk, it is only rationalfor the uk, it is only rationalfor the cops to assume that that person is retrieving a gun so they can turn around and start shooting cops in the face, which happens. and every cop knows this. moving on from race to religion, you are very known for writing a book called into faith that espoused your belief that religion was preposterous. but about your views, there is a clear viewing that islam is considered a more maligned or dangerous view of beliefs than other religions. and something that you set a number of years ago, almost 14 years ago, when you talked about, muslims and europe‘s and you said, muslim immigrants show little

inclination to acquire the values of host countries, they exploit those countries and demand tolerance for their backward misogynist, their anti—semitism and the genocidal hatred preached in their mosques. if you‘re asking for calm, considered conversation, do you consider your own words are helping? one road in the immediate aftermath of september 11, this, my conversation and my style of composition is moved on from there and i wrote a book with a fellow brit who used to be a muslim extremist who is now as rational and secular person that you could ever hope to find and we have a debate that converged on a happy conversation and friendship that became this book, islam in the future of tolerance so people can get my most recent framing of issues there. but,

to your fundamental point, yes, it is taboo to say wherever you happen to stand in culture, whether you‘re or religious, the religions are different with respect almost any variable we care about. they claimed different things, they emphasise different things, they are different points in their history and engagement with maternity and yes, islam is not an accident that there is not an accident that there isa is not an accident that there is a phenomenon and islam or anglicanism, or scientology, these are different belief system. so, when donald trump imposed that travel ban which was quite clearly aimed at muslims and he listed seven muslims and he listed seven muslim majority countries which, for security reasons said could no longer travel of the united states, were you cheering him on? you characterize muslim immigrants asa characterize muslim immigrants

as a group of people within which there will be a small minority, you say, which are statistically going to be jihadists, which is what donald trump it‘s a. jihadists, which is what donald trump it's a. hence the need to vet immigrants and refugees about, we are looking for people who believe specific things about martyrdom and blasphemy and the rights of women, whether it makes moral sense to hurl homosexuals off the top of rooftops and those we re the top of rooftops and those were recruiting for the islamic state or people who drop out of medical school for the process of going to live in syria so they may be able to martyr themselves. this is a phenomenon of contagious ideas that we have to speak honestly about and it is only happening in one religion. now, in addition, the reason why i did not agree with donald trump poss plus travel ban is because it was completely incoherent because it was not even targeting the countries that

targeted the greatest ideological risks are the greatest areas of this. but the most valuable people on earth, with respect to dealing with this problem, people we most wa nt this problem, people we most want in our societies are secular muslims and moderate muslims and people who could actually bridge the gap between the non—muslim community and the non—muslim community and the secular community and the religious extremists who are a minority, but still a problem within the muslim community. we need people, dozens of other secularists and moderates and a postates secularists and moderates and apostates why have supported and we need them to figure out how to midwife this renaissance within the muslim community where, and something like enlightened and values, to court in the widest possible

way, and i will not accomplish that, it requires someone within the community to do that. generally, people associate you with a very strong brand of atheism, that famous time you debated with richard dawkins and all of you said that religion is extremely corrosive and damaging. someone asked about spirituality and while the others did not bite, he said yes, there is room for spirituality in your life. and despite everything you say about science and rationality, do you believe in some sort of higher power? some nonhuman forces work? it's not a matter of believing in a higher power, it isa of believing in a higher power, it is a matter of experiencing the fact that consciousness is intrinsically mysterious and it is the context in which all of

our wonderful experiences appear, right? the context of all of our suffering and the mechanics of that is something we can understand more and more and change our lives for the better. but it is also the context with which human life can get better and better and so some spiritual values like self transcendence and unconditional love are at the co re unconditional love are at the core of any movement in the direction of greater and greater human well—being and should be at the core of any ethics that can be used to talk about those possibilities. i have no doubt that is possible to become something like the historical person of jesus, however that was, or buddha or any of these great patriarchs and matriarchs of our religions. there is a baby and the bath water that we do not wa nt to the bath water that we do not want to throw out his atheists, but you never want to believe anything irrational in order to explore those possibilities in yourself or in society. the

insta nce yourself or in society. the instance that is clearly no. close to the beginning of this interview, he said i‘m not telling you i am an optimist. you say you believe in transcendence and that we can all turn ourselves in better beings by looking within, and pursuing love in all of that, we are not doing it, are we? as we are not doing it, are we? as we look around the world and around our societies right now, thatis around our societies right now, that is not happening. we are not doing it well, i would certainly agree. many of us are trying and that is all we can do is try. both personally and i think most importantly, protect norms that allow us to live by our deeper wisdom, even when we are personally liable to fail. right? we want laws and tax codes and modes of discourse that and caressed for a better possible selves and make it possible for even mediocre and conflicted people

to behave better and better. what we have rather often are systems of incentives that are set up to make even the very ethical people, behave unethically. or even fairly honest people to behave dishonestly and adjust anchors back to this beginning of our conversation, but i am most worried about our style of discourse around these issues like race is that it is causing even fairly scrupulous and well—intentioned people to be dishonest and sloppy and practised a kind of, politics of personal destruction where, effectively, they behave like psychopaths on social media and in printand psychopaths on social media and in print and in various journalistic encounters, where they never would do this if the incentives were not aligned that way. i would like to change or incentives around conversations where we have

today and we have a lot of work today and we have a lot of work to do. to do that. sam harris, and the spirit of strong conversation, i think you for being on hardtalk. pleasure, thank you. hello. summer warmth has been in short supply over the last few days. in fact, on sunday morning one sheltered spot in county down in northern ireland just a fraction below freezing. and monday morning is getting off to a rather cool start as well. a largely dry start to the new week.

later in the week it will be wetter, windier and a bit warmer for a time before cooler weather returns just in time for the weekend. we start monday with high pressure in charge of the scene. underneath this area of high pressure with light winds, temperatures have been dropping away. but it means a mostly dry day. we will see some spells of sunshine and i think quite a lot of cloud will bubble up in the sky and the cloud spreading out and some places will have grey skies by the afternoon. temperatures are disappointing, 15 to 18 degrees. the winds will be strengthening towards the north—west. later in the day we will see some cloud and outbreaks of rain pushing into northern ireland, perhaps north west scotland as well. a weak frontal system trying to push its way in but elsewhere it stays dry during the night. not quite as chilly although some spots in northern and eastern areas will get down into single digits. on tuesday, this frontal system will make some progress eastwards, but it is running

into high pressure and that will squeeze a lot of the energy out of a weather front. you can barely see it on tuesday‘s weather charts. cloud and some splashes of rain across parts of north—west scotland, may be northern ireland. but elsewhere it is looking predominantly dry with some spells of sunshine. temperature starting to creep upwards a little bit. as we move out of tuesday and into wednesday, this next frontal system will have more life about it. that will bring heavy and persistent rain and the rain will get further south eastwards less time. but there is anger in the south—east of england will probably stay dry for a good part of the day. turning windy as well. those are the average wind speeds, we could have gusts of 50 mph or more for the western isles of scotland. with the wind is coming up from the south—west, temperatures will be higher, 17 in glasgow, 20 in london. there likely to be the warmest day of the week. training places and into the weekend it turns cooler again, but there will be a lot of dry weather.

this is bbc news — with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. i‘m lewis vaughan jones. arrests in belarus, as tens of thousands protest in minsk and security forces block off areas to deter demonstrators. today‘s protests was very different to the protests of different to the protests of different sundaes. a lot more police, tighter security. the police, tighter security. the police determined to stop this protest. a man is shot dead in the us city of portland, as supporters of president trump clash with supporters of black lives matter. as the total number of coronavirus cases tops 25 million — india sees a record rise in 2a hours. why coronavirus may ruin plans to get british university