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tv   Dateline London  BBC News  September 6, 2020 4:30pm-5:00pm BST

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a man has been killed and seven people are injured in stabbings in birmingham overnight. police declare a major incident but rule out terrorism. tougher coronavirus restrictions have come into force in bolton, the area which now has the highest infection rate in england. uk foreign secretary dominic raab says this week is the moment of reckoning as the uk tries to strike a trade deal with the european union. now on bbc news, it's time for dateline london.
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hello, i'm shaun ley. welcome to the programme which brings together leading uk commentators, bbc specialists and the foreign correspondents who file their stories to audiences back home with the dateline: london. in a week when britain's foreign office swallowed up a whitehall rival, we'll be discussing what lies behind borisjohnson‘s promise of a ‘global britain'. first test — the poisoning of a putin critic. that should sound familiar to mrjohnson. and joe biden banks the booty, but donald trump narrows his lead. to discuss those stories, our dateline panel — the british writer and broadcaster yasmin alibhai—brown, and henry chu from the los angeles times. and here in the studio with me, sanitised and safely distanced, the bbc‘s diplomatic correspondent james landale. welcome to all of you and good to have you with us again. they've been changing the name plates in whitehall this week. out goes dfid, which since the days of tony blair had administered the aid budget. in comes a beefed—up foreign, commonwealth and development office. this is stage one of
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boris johnson's global britain, using the opportunity created by leaving the european union to forge a new, independent foreign policy. james, why does borisjohnson believe axing this department will enhance britain's diplomatic clout? this decision was driven by politics and policy. the politics was that this department was quite unpopular with large sections of the conservative party. the idea that it was wasting money and it was being spent on the wrong priorities that should be spent domestically at home, schools and hospitals and things like that. that was the politics. so the prime minister said he wanted to get rid of what he called the great cashpoint in the sky of dfid. that is the politics. the policy is the idea that, actually, britain's foreign policy and domestic policy needed to be brought together because it was disjointed and different parts of government were doing different things and it needed to be united
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so that the uk spoke as one. officials and ministers in other parts of the world were asking, who is in charge? is it the dfid people with their cash or is it the policy people from the foreign office? that is the aim of this decision. many question marks around it and the timing of it. and the idea of global britain post—leaving the european union, how will it look different in terms of how we engage with the world? the whole thing is that this phrase emerged at the beginning of brexit when the government and supporters of brexit said, "we are being accused of putting our heads in the sand and being not as internationalist as we have been. we need a policy, and global britain was it." they have struggled to define what the policy is since then. what they're trying to do with dfid and the foreign office merger now is to say, "let's try and draw up a new strategy."
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the government is carrying out an integrated review of security, defence, intelligence — that is due to report this autumn — and, at that point, the question will be, has the government actually got the strategy that thus far it has not explained? yasmin alibhai—brown, does it have the strategy and, in your view, what would you like to see in that global britain brand? i look forward to the strategy. thus far, on almost every crucial area of governance, they haven't been very strategic or sustainable. but one of the things i worry most about, and a lot of my friends abroad are worrying about, is that assassinating dfid had meaning. it wasn't just about pleasing the tory party and certain wings of it, but that foreign policy,
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and possibly our arms trade and a lot of, in my view, immoral stuff, is now going to be tied to what we offer some of the poorest nations of the world. we used to offer them help. now i think a lot of it is going to be tied to trade, enforced trade, a little bit like the east india company those years back, and to some of the more disreputable things we are selling to the world. i am concerned about that. but if it works, good. what about the argument that because you have a human rights lawyer as foreign secretary, you might actually get a foreign policy...? dominic raab worked for the foreign office as an official rather than a politician. ..you might get someone who can inject a bit more morality that you would like to see into foreign policy? i don't think so.
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the anger about the human rights act has been visceral on the right, and i think i have not heard... this is all about trade and us, they want to... these are the new, if you like, east india company whatever go—getters. they think that... i remember having a conversation with a key mover and shaker in all of this, ex—mep, and he said we will go to other countries and they will give us trade, no restrictions. there is no mention of human rights here. henry chu of the los angeles times, what do you make of this attempt to reposition britain on the global stage? i find the phrase 'global britain' puzzling. when did it stop being global? when it was part of the eu, it was a member of a trading bloc with agreements
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all around the world. it was not as if it was not global before. it seems a bit of an empty phrase. now it seems like lonesome britain in that it is striking out on its own and trying to have an independent foreign policy, which is fine, if that is what it feels a sovereign nation does. but this is a global era where it is a race between the economic superpowers, and that means the us, china and the eu, to a large extent. britain is not part of any of those any more and it will actually have to decide which camp it wants to fall into. if it wants to turn its back on europe and make a clean break of it, that is fine, but then who is the natural partner? you might say the us but, in that special relationship, i am sorry to say, the uk will always be a junior partner. i think that trying to position itself is a little bit fatuous under this slogan of global britain. last week, another commentator said that one thing number 10 said they might get out of a joe biden presidency if he wins is a bit more
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predictability and certainty, continuity in foreign policy. judging by your answer, you're a bit sceptical as to how much interest a biden presidency would have in a uk untethered from the european union? he was vice president to barack obama, and obama said, if brexit happened, britain will go to the back of the line in terms of trade agreements. that might not be the case. it is in the us and uk's interests to come up with a trade agreement, but, if biden is president, he will have a lot of other things on his plate and britain by itself is not going to be high on the list. i think europe has always been important to the us and britain is a conduit here and has been an important player that way. but without that role any longer, britain, again, by itself, i think it will slip down the list of priorities for biden.
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and he will be more predictable. that is a good thing. we have a loose cannon right now in the white house. that doesn't necessarily mean britain will be in a better position than in the past. james, can you pick up on that concern yasmin raised? how would dominic raab respond to the fear that it might be too driven by trade and help will be at a price? they will say it's not about to trade and it is about matching aid with uk interests. in other words, saying, "yes, you focus on extreme poverty around the world, but also think about state building in countries that, if that state was not supported, might produce a terrorism that could end up on british shores and could produce migration on british shores." that is where they are trying to link the two things. we are yet to see that happen, but that is the aim. yasmin, let me pick up on a concrete example of how you might try to apply the global britain brand. let's take the poisoning
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of alexai navalny. how would you want a global britain to respond to a event like that? poisoned in his own country, evacuated by air ambulance by german authorities to germany and poisoned by a soviet—era nerve agent. the russian government says, "nothing to do with us." germany say they want explanation. what should britain should be saying? and nato and the eu, too. they are all asking for answers and have expressed clearly what they think about what russia has been up to. it has been appalling to see the excuses they are coming up with. the doctors who examined him back in russia said, "oh, well, it wasn't poison, he might have eaten something." the denials, denials, denials. we are in a bad place on this in this country. it relates to a very complicated question we dealt with earlier, which henry also raised.
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if we are to be this global britain, we will be asked to surrender many of our moral values, if you like. the reluctance in this country to deal with the russia issue and in america, and trump says, "i don't know if putin was the man behind it." that is because they have all the dirty linen of the two countries. they are beholden to russia. and unlike nato and germany, they are not able to take a stand. so i think this is a perfect example of our inability. henry, just on that question of taking a stand, to use yasmin‘s phrase, there are options here. one is to cancel nord stream 2, the gas line project, which would please the poles, and they are one country not happy about it. it is going through the baltic sea
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and danish waters. it could provide two thirds of germany's natural gas energy needs. that is a high economic price for germany to pay to make a principled stand. yes, and merkel is under pressure to do so by people in germany but has the economic consequences to weigh on that. what is illustrative here is, think of the last time there was a novichok poisoning, that was here in britain, and theresa may, prime minister then, was able to cobble together a good international response. there were almost 120 russian diplomats around the world expelled by countries such as the us, australia, and the majority of them, the great majority, were eu countries. that is something where allies act and have great weight. that was when britain was still part of the eu,
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or the referendum had happened but britain was still in the transition period and was a member. much easier to call in european partners when you are at the table of brussels. in this case, say something like this had happened in britain on british soil, it would be much harder to mount the same response. borisjohnson, yasmin, was foreign secretary at the time. i was talking to another person this week and he was saying, it is simple what the international community must do, it must make putin a pariah and not invite him to things and not pose for handshakes and photographs with him. would it make a difference? it is worse than that. london is the laundromat of the money held by putin's circle and those oligarchs that back him. we are so i'iei’vous.
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there was a great article in the irish times last week about this — why we have allowed russia to become such a presence in this country and to unravel that is incredibly difficult. therefore we are not just unable because of the uncertain future, we are complicit. borisjohnson hasjust put into the house of lords the son of somebody who was in the kgb, for god's sake! james, the challenge to russia, i suppose, is to use the international amenity that exists. it sides up to conventions and controlling bodies like this. isn't the opportunity here to use one of those international bodies and say, "you sign up to this convention and developed this poison, you are responsible for this or you have lost control of this substance" — what is it? that would be the obvious solution.
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international conventions are tricky and they're looking quite old. many of these conventions were set up a fair distance to go. i also think here that the problem we have is that this is an incident that happened on russian soil and it's different. the salisbury experience was clearly an assault in the uk. it was easier then for the uk to form an alliance. the germans are divided over this. they are saying, "it did not happen on german soil, shall we be different about this?" the only real impact is resources, and that means nord stream 2. the russians are vulnerable to any loss of demand to their natural resources because their economic situation is not as strong as they would like it to be. that is a big question for chancellor merkel. we will come back to that in the coming weeks.
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donald trump is more astute than his critics give him credit for. in 2016, he raised his profile above those of the other republican wannabe presidents by saying outrageous things. it made him headline news. he did it, too, during that year's election, and hillary clinton kept taking the bait. he's trying the tactic again. on wednesday, he suggested voters in north carolina try to vote twice. "let them send it in and let them go vote", he said, to test the security, which he doubts, of mail—in votes. i suppose, henry, as you alluded to, we have another example again on friday with the president saying, "let's not talk about russia, let's talk about china," and throwing it out there again. i wonder, though, if you think joe biden will take the bait. will he keep responding to outrageous trump remarks that make the headlines? i think we know biden can be a tempestuous figure and he has had gaffs because he has been provoked or irritated. i think it would be easy for things
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to get under his skin. he needs to be wary of that because that allows trump to do what he likes to do best — dominate the news cycle, throwing these firebombs into the political conversation at regular intervals. he is the one that gets to be on the news all the time, often from the oval office. biden will always seem to be on the back foot if he is waiting to take the bait. he needs to be careful about that. he needs to think about how to go on the offence instead of just playing defence, letting the agenda be dictated by the opponents. he has been showing signs of that. he has now finally emerged from his lair in his basement in delaware. he was in wisconsin, where there was another horrible incident of a black man being killed at the hands of police. he gave a speech there, hot on the heels of president trump's visit. he needs to do that in more battle ground states as well.
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he came out and said that trump is a toxic presence who creates division in the country. we need to hear more of those kind of remarks from biden to show that he is not the 'sleepyjoe' that trump likes to paint him as. that needs to be part of his political playbook. do you think he has been driven onto trump's policy with this law and order thing? he came out a week earlier than he planned to, which might suggest his campaign was spooked by the president, but his poll lead... he broke obama's record for monthly fundraising making $361 million in august. but the polls are narrow and things are tightening. yes, and the interesting thing
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is that we might think that has just happened in the last couple of days, but the atlantic in the usa had a brilliant article about how trump totally disrespects and disdains the military, especially casualties of war. he has been quoted saying, "people who die in war, including john mccain, who was hugely respected, are losers and suckers." i think this is really emerging as a big thing now in the campaign. you don't, in a country like america or anywhere else, show such contempt for the dead of wars. so there are things happening that may make a difference, but he is... he is like idi amin. he knows how to win popular support and say outrageous things.
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he knows how to win on those. i am not sure that we are going to see the end of the trump period for a very long time. that is an intriguing prospect, henry. there is some reason to think, on the economy at least, people still trust him broadly in a way that perhaps they don't as president overall. i saw some figures that suggest 42% approval of trump's presidency, but 48% approval of how he has handled the economy. that is still less than half of the country. i don't want to understate that, but i also think it can be overstated and it will matter in two months when the election rolls around. in a sense, the election has already began because the state of north carolina hasjust began issuing its mail order ballots. two months is a long time for things to happen and that includes the debates coming up between biden and trump. that can be a minefield
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for either side. with the pandemic, we still need to see how that will play out over the summer, the rest of the summer, in the us and the beginning of the fall. because if a second wave begins to hit hard, if the economy tanks further, if unemployment goes back up, then that is a different ball game altogether. interesting to hearjoe biden link the economy to coronavirus this week and that is to neutralise one of trump's strongest cards by pointing out one of his weakest ones. finally, the 'any other business‘ section of dateline. yasmin, what story or thing would you like us to notice that perhaps we haven't paid too much attention to over the last week or so? for me, the best story... i have just read a book on brilliant women published. and what was interesting to me was women leaders around the world have managed this virus far better than male leaders.
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the list is quite long. it is notjust merkel, bangladesh, new zealand, denmark, some of the caribbean islands, taiwan, iceland, norway, where there is a woman leader, numbers of deaths are low, it is really low. so, guys, here is to us! is there anything you want to back that up with? lots. research from liverpool and reading this week which shows that there is a huge difference in the way women deal with crises than the way men do. it is properly based. who would you single out? i wouldn't. i think they have all been... for me, it is not...
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the health minister of kerala, kk shailaja, been a complete wizard. deaths are about 40 in kerala. and if anyone wants to know how to manage a pandemic, look to the health minister of kerala. she has done what many of the male leaders have been unable to do. henry, what about you? i am afraid to bring this back to gloom and doom, but, recently, there was a report, an alarming report for those trying to track climate change, that the greenland ice sheet melt last summer of 2019 was the biggest on record. it was more than twice the average of this century. it was about nearly 600
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billion tonnes of water. that is a phenomenal amount. in fact, i read somewhere that it was the equivalent of covering the entirety of california in almost a metre of water. at the same time, we also heard from north america that the last intact ice shelf in canada also just broke apart. we cannot take our eye off the ball on climate change. there is a more immediate pandemic that is before us. and just on those extremes, when i think of california under over a metre of water, a lot would welcome that at the moment because, where i am from in los angeles, there will be a massive heatwave this holiday weekend in america. temperatures will be 50 celsius in parts of los angeles and you saw in iraq just a month ago, they exceeded that, hovering at 50 degrees as well, set records. these are extremes that our planet is not made for and our species is not made for.
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we need to make sure we are not missing the forest for the trees. james, on the diplomatic beat, what has caught your eye? part of the government's global britain thing is to renew reform and the structure that was set up after world war ii. something happened this week to show how hard that will be. the americans, i kid you not, imposed sanctions on prosecutors and officials at the international criminal court because they are investigating allegations of war crimes in afghanistan that involves some americans. the americans see this as a threat to their sovereignty and the international criminal court say that is what they were set up to do. britain supports this court and is campaigning hard to get a britishjudge back onto this court. the us and britain are at loggerheads over this key international structure we have. dominic raab, as i said earlier, he was a human rights lawyer.
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thank you all for your time and good to have you with us. that's it for dateline: london for this week. we're back next week at the same time. goodbye. showers around for the rest of daylight, one or two heavy, but still a good deal of dry weather, more sunshine for scotland and northern ireland in particular compared with yesterday and once the showers fade away we already have the next atlantic low pressure, this
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area of cloud advancing in so are very different complexion to the weather tomorrow. some showers around across england and wales, eastern england could see heavy ones but very few for scotland and northern ireland with the lighter winter feels warmer today and also across england and wales because we have the lighter winds. under the lighter winds and one station i was fade away to this evening, the night—time will turn chilly with the possibility of patchy fog for the commute tomorrow morning so that is a change now that the nights get longer. this is the big change here with a strengthening wind pushing in cloud and rain on our weather front, you can see the tightly packed isobar so a return to fairly breezy weather, strong winds at least gusty. pushing that rain eastwards through the day and southwards and after the fog clears we are looking forward to a good deal of dry and bright weather, sunshine, warmth as well, the rain turns patchy as it crosses into england during the
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afternoon and is still warm or mild and muggy, lots of mist and low crowd. that weather front sink southwards, very little rain left on it, not likely to reach the far south—east but much milder night, dank and drizzly with that low crowd and grey weather. that weather front meanders around over the coming few days into the south of it we have this warm and muggy air so lots of moisture in there which is why it will be cloudy and over the hills grey and misty. through tuesday initially a week weather front across parts of northern england and wales, it pushes heavier rain back into northern ireland and scotland. weather some punches through temperatures shoot into the mid 20s, even the low 20s the north—east of
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scotland,.
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this is bbc news. the headlines at five. a man has been killed and seven people are injured in stabbings in birmingham overnight — police declare a "major incident" but rule out terrorism. there's absolutely no suggestion at all that this is terror related. this is being treated as a homicide being investigated by west midlands police. the stabbings occured at several different locations over a period of two hours. police are still looking for a male suspect — an eyewitness describes what he saw. the police were reacting straight away. they came here within seconds. obviously, nobody chased him because, by the time the police were there, the guy was already at the bottom of hurst street. to

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