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now on bbc news, it's hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. the sense of systemic racial injustice in policing that has fuelled the black lives matter movement is shared far beyond the shores of the united states. in britain, it's been two decade since a top level inquiry into london's police force found it to be institutionally racist. how much has really changed? well, my guest, leroy logan, was one of london's top black policeman until he retired seven years ago. how easy is it to root out discrimination dressed in a police uniform?

leroy logan, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much for the invitation, it's great to be here. well, we are delighted to have you, not least because you have written a fascinating memoir, and you've entitled it's closing ranks: my life as a cop, so it's pretty clear what it's about. you talk about your decision to join the police force many, many years ago as — what you say — is a calling. you make it sound like some sort of religious commitment as a young man that you made to policing. well, it had to be as strong as that because of my career path after my science degree was to be a clinical researcher at the royal free hospital, and possibly going into medicine. so, i was very clear on my career path, and then this strong sort of unquenchable

voice just kept on resonating. i was questioning my sanity. why would i want to do policing, having experienced so much during the days of the 70s? and i saw how my father, the long distance driver, how he would be harassed by police. to be clear, you were brought up in a not very well off black family. your parents moved to london from jamaica, and you, as a kid, saw that it was a pretty tough life being a black kid on the streets of inner london, and not least a tough life in terms of relationship with the police. absolutely. it even happened when i went to go to school, and i would come out after band practice with my trumpet and my satchel, and i would still get stopped. "what are you doing now? what's in this trumpet case?" "a trumpet? " you know, these sort of things

i found really challenging, and my father used to stand up for me and for himself when he got stopped by police. unfortunately, he was a victim of a savage beating by police when i was actually in the process ofjoining, so you can imagine how i felt. "no way am i going to be a cop after all of this "because of how my hero and my father had been "savagely beaten over a traffic matter." well, you say, i can imagine,. actually, i don't think i can imagine. i can't imagine how you then second—guessed yourself, and indeed, probably overcame the suspicion and hostility of notjust the community that you came from, but also your own family to actually go ahead in the end and sign up and join this force. why did you do that, despite the deep reservations of your dad amongst others? well, even though he successfully sued the met for excessive force and unlawful arrest, he was still there supporting me, but how he found out was the worst thing.

because i had applied behind him even knowing it because officers i'd spoken to who uses to work in hempstead, used to use facilities at the royal free, sort of gave me the human side of policing, and then when i was doing my degree, i saw a black officer in the 70s and it resonated with me. and i remember as a child injamaica, i spent a few years at primary school stage injamaica, and i saw black officers, black teachers, black prime ministers and i thought, "actually, policing can be my calling." did friends and even some family call you a sell—out? absolutely. if you ever want to reduce a christmas card list by 90%, join the met. be a black young men and joining them at.

i was called judas, a sell—out, i said, i don't think i've sold out. i said very clearly, i'm a black man who happens to be a cop. so that means i integrate into the organisation with my beliefs and values. i'm not going to assimilate into norms and values of the culture. it's a long time now since you did that training, the police school in hendon, and then as a young beat officer, you joined the police on the streets of london. how painful is it now, as you've done in the book, and as you probably will have to do with me, to recall some of the racism that you experienced? i'm not thinking racism from people on the streets, but i'm thinking of racism inside your own team. 0h, absolutely. i would get monkey noises on the radio, i even remember a massive n—word in upper case on my locker. it's in a secure area, so it couldn't be... it had to be a team member. it had to be a policeman or woman who had done it. absolutely, and it wasn't a member of the public.

and did you report it? was it investigated ? yeah, well, they said they investigated, but i didn't see anyone being spoken to, i didn't any sort of feedback, because in those days, casual racism and overt racism, not necessarily directed at me, but at members of the public who looked like me, were always part of their narrative. how close did you come to walking away as a young police officer? many times. some would say that perhaps that would be the move with the greatest amount of integrity behind it, to actually say, "i've seen now inside the system, "it is so rotten, it is so bad for my people in particular, "but so bad for race relations in london that i will not be "any sort of token or fig leaf covering up what is going on." i thought that many times. but i also saw what was bad in the met could easily be solved by what's good in it. there are some great people in the met, a majority of people want to serve

all members of the public, regardless of background. but, with respect, that's not true, is it, leroy? because you, through the 80s and 90s, served in a period when policing in london was, we now can say with absolute assurance, systemically institutionally racist, and we can say that because after the terrible racist murder of young stephen lawrence back in 1993, there was ultimately a full public inquiry, and that was the conclusion that they reached, institutional racism, and you are in there all of that time. and i gave evidence to say that they were institutionally racist. but the thing is... but then you go home commute take your salary, , take your salary, you are

on the beat the next day, i dare say with a mix of emotionally white officers, and probably seeing things the very next day and that after that that disturbed you in your conscience, but what did you do about it? i had to stand in the midst. you know, you are not going to steer a ship from the shore, you are going to be on board come in the captains cabin, changing the direction. and we in the black police association saw an opportunity, especially after mcpherson, to own the recommendations of the internal recruitment retention progression as well as the external delivery to the black community. in this fascinating book, what strikes me that you don't do is you don't ever describe an incident where you felt personally compromised in your policing on the streets of london when faced with perhaps a racially charged situation. are you saying that never happened ? of course, it happened. so what did you do? i challenge people. you know, there is no way officers, especially when i was a supervisor, that they could mistreat people. and i had to report people where they were inappropriate.

what i would like to do is spot it before it becomes a problem, put them on a development plan, even assist them with on—the—job training. i had to show ethical leadership, i had to speak truth to power in that grassroots level with officers. because i used to say to them, "every time "you have a encounter with a member of the public, "that's a potential witness for a crime you have "to investigate." but were officers that you worked closely with out and out racist? some of them? some of them had some real strong views, because, unfortunately, the police does attract certain people with those very intolerant abuse. and the culture develops it in a way that it becomes the norm. so it was a cultural thing, and that is why we had to ensure — through the mcpherson inquiry — we break through that culture. on a personal level, i'm just thinking of you, you as a young man, married, you have a family,

you are living your life, and you are also undergoing this extraordianary career which is, as we have already touched upon, soulful of challenge and stress. you say in the book, "i knew thatjoining the police "and being a policeman would set two worlds, my personal life and my professional life on a collision course." is that how it felt? absolutely. that you couldn't easily marry having a decent personal life, and living this life as a black policeman in london? i found that even though it was a collision course, i had the anchor of my faith to assist me to navigate through it. even when i was involved in the taylor investigation, i brought in a team of black officers to assist... the taylor case which came years after the horrible racist murder of stephen lawrence, it was a different case, because this was a young black boy who was killed. it wasn't a racist attack in the case of taylor, but it was a tragic case of a young black boy in the

wrong place at the wrong time — who it seems was attacked by people with a gang affiliation who just didn't like his presence on their patch at that particular time. and you are saying that when you investigated that, you applied new tactics, new sort of sensitivity and you are saying that when you investigated that, you applied new tactics, new sort of sensitivity and smart policing when it came to dealing with minority communities in london. absolutely. because the officers had shared that common experience with the community, who had information, and they wouldn't even open the door to white officers who did house to house inquiries. once i brought in that team, literally, within hours, they were opening doors, giving information from identifying witnesses and suspects. eventually assisting in developing that conviction. what i saw, you we have to show diversity in action,

because that's when officers will really understand the importance of diversity, having a reflective organisation to build bridges with the community and not barriers. but you paint this picture of the damilola taylor case representing a sort of watershed moment with more, sort of, sensitive policing. there was a cultural relations unit set up. you label it affinity policing. the use of black police officers who have a knowledge of heritage and history and language which could reach out to members of the black community in parts of london. it all sounds great, but if one looks at the statistics, even in the last decade, long after damilola taylor's case, we see that still, a black person is five times more likely, at least, to be stopped by the police than a white counterpart. we see that in every metric, for example, black people in custody in terms of violent acts and even death in custody, again, a disproportionate number of black people involved. the metrics suggest nothing much has actually changed. and you wouldn't be far wrong from that. u nfortu nately, after the mcpherson report was published in february

of 1999, the group which was the independent oversight chaired by jack straw and lawrence amongst other people, like myself, used to hold chief constables and the commission to account because what gets measured gets done. once that subsequent home secretary took over, and it was finally dissolved in 2009, and then austerity was brought in in 2010 — the steering group for oversight was gone, then chief constables were right there on homework about the recommendations and saying, "institutional racism is no longer useful." when it was supposed to be an aspiration to improve the internal and external elements of the police for. the internal and external elements of the police force. so forward momentum was lost, wasn't? absolutely. and more importantly, you then lost a lot of officers through austerity.

especially citizens focused cops, community cops, you're safer neighbour teams, your safer schools officers. those lost connections with the community, and that is why things have gone backwards. so the look and feel of policing in my estimation reminds me of a pre—mcpherson era. and that... that is a shocking thing to say. it is! but... the mcpherson report was what, 1999? yep. and you are saying that the way you look at the direction of travel today, we seem to be going back to a period before 1999. yes, absolutely. it's about the leadership of the organisation to address the culture. i think the culture has been hijacked by the extremely aggressive and intolerant group of individuals that take over the organisation. that's a much harder organisation — the use of handcuffs, even before stop on accounts, and stop and search, it's creating so much animosity. we have now got barriers, walls of silence, creating barriers that the police have created, and it's caused

trauma for young people. i want to just tease out then what you think is happening, because you are an advocate now and a campaigner, and you work with a lot of young people in black communities across london. you are also an advocate for, again, smart policing. when you hear the chief of the metropolitan police of london today saying that she will not use this phrase, "institutional racism." because she says it's no longer helpful, she says we have zero because she says it's no longer helpful, she says, "we have zero tolerance of racist behaviour "within the met." is that the sort of leadership the met needs? you have to walk the talk. even now, officers of black and minority ethnic backgrounds are five times more likely to be disciplined than their white counterparts. i myself was investigated for a witchhunt over an £80 hotel bill in the late 90s. so in all honesty, it's quite clear that those sort of cases that were still the case 20 years ago are still

happening now. and then you also see the disproportionality in even section 60 roadblocks... hang on a minute... 25 times more likely with black men in white... and i—i, yeah... ..to be stopped, and aggressively about. i gave some other stats about, you know, the number of stops made on black people as opposed to white people in london and the proportionality there. there is no question, there is a real disproportionality. but the police‘s response is, there's a disproportionality because there has to be, because we go to where the crime is being committed, and where we most urgently need to protect local populations, and often time in london, the truth is, that is in majority black communities. so that's why the numbers of stop and search are higher, and that's why the number of arrests also, it doesn't make sense to criticise the police for that reality. well, stop and search in leeds is not disproportionately black. you mean yorkshire city?

absolutely. what it has to be as well, it has to be intelligence led. and a cornerstone of police legitimacy is trust. if the communities don't trust you, they don't tell you who to really stop, and that's why even the actual hit rate of how many stops leads to interest, oi’ uncovering a weapon is one in ten. so nine times out of ten, you are harassing the wrong sort of people. and that's what's creating the real animosity between the police and the public. do you think, it's interesting you talk about that, and clearly, tensions exist, and a sense of unfairness exists. you earlier talked about your initiative, about your initiative, you were one of the architects of this black police association, it's been around for a long time now. there are those within the police and without who argue that having a powerful black police association actually exacerbates the sense

of differentness of black police officers. it does nothing to create a sense that all police officers are — whether they are white or black — utterly committed to nine prejudicial policing. well, they would say that, when they? ——well, they would say that, wouldn't they? because even when we were setting up the black police association, in ourfirst meetings, actually, in april of 1993, the same month as stephen lawrence was killed, they were pushing back saying, "you don't need a bpa because we take care of you." well, if you did, we wouldn't be feeling the need to form so work with us as equal partners. and they still don't want to do that now. and they fuel the culture. that's what creates young people to think, "i want nothing to do with the police." i have been running a charity called voyage youth, we set it up 20 years ago through the black police association,

it was called the black police association charitable trust before it was now called voyage. and every year, i do the trust and confidence with those young people, and they have always said, we feel over police and under protected. the police disrespect us. this is year nine students, 14—15, looking at developing themselves with their b tech level two that we offer so that they can actually have these points before they start school. gcse‘s, year ten, and they are always saying that. that is just a microcosm of the issue, and it is still the case today. and as you say, you are no longer in uniform and you are a community activist. i am very struck by your decision earlier this summer to join a black lives matter protest march in london. why did you do that? because i want to identify with that movement. yeah, but you knew that that could lead to confrontation with the police. well, as i said, i'm a black man who happened to be a cop. and it's really important for me to put that i am still a black man. i still hurt... the pain of seeing the torture of george floyd by an officer

who has got the same "protect and serve" mantra, who are there to serve the community, and to see that torture and that death, there is no way that i could not hold back. i could not hold back. i'd got to be there. and itjust so happened that that solidarity for the movement is so important. that's why, even when they are talking about black lives matter meaning something, and at the same time to say systemic racism doesn't exist, it's counterproductive. actually, and that question a black lives matter, when she saw that some of her own officers, metropolitan police officers, had taken in one of the early marches, the decision to actually respond to the crowd who had asked them to take the knee by taking the knee, several officers chose to kneel and take the knee. she then declared, i think within 2a hours, no officer shall do that again. how did you feel about that? if

you had been in uniform at the time of this march and black lives matter, would you have taken then he? ifi lives matter, would you have taken then he? if i felt that desire for solidarity with the community, yes, iwould. desire for solidarity with the community, yes, i would. would you have ignored the order of your senior officer? do you know, sometimes you have to. really, tell officers... i had to do it many times in the black police association. what you are doing is actually creating barriers, and at times, just doing that gesture of solidarity with the community can break down those barriers and actually help you to be more efficient and effective in serving the needs of the community. what works, in your view, you have had a long career in policing, now much more in community organisation, what works in terms of building a much more effective relationship, successful relationship, between the police and young people— particularly young men in black and minority ethnic communities— what works best?

some talk about getting the police out, some talk about dismantling and defunding the police, but that is an extreme view. what can the police do— short of defunding and getting out — what can the police do to forage —— forage a relationship? change the narrative. if you thank you can stop and search your way out of the problem, or arrestor out of the problem, or arrestor out of the problem, or arrestor out of the problem, that's mike went to work. i always hear officers saying, welcome in my experience... i did 30 years, i know the limitations of stop and search and it's a blunt tool commit has to be shortened up tool commit has to be shortened up with community intelligence and trust is a critical part of that equation. you then have to ensure that you walk the talk. you have to have statement of intent to say, listen, we have a problem. acknowledge you have a problem. acknowledge you have a problem. acknowledge you have a problem. don't deny it and sweep it under the carpet and say, "oh, all is well." because we mark our own homework. let people understand that, yes, you are willing to see that these feelings have had a detrimental effect and do something about it. and

obviously start to really hone in on those officers who are draconian in their actions and really building barriers because of the way in which they operate with the community. so that the majority of officers who really are there for the right reasons and are doing a greatjob will have an opportunity to do so without feeling that they have misplaced loyalties. 0h, we don't speak against certain people, because it's a decision by decibels. and then supervisors to supervisors on the street with proper ethical leadership. i was public and the number one on sunday occasions, and they still are hounding me on social media. that's why he wrote the book. wa rts that's why he wrote the book. warts and all. they've got nothing else to say to me. it sa ns nothing else to say to me. it sans like you feel that there is still an awful long way to go. absolutely. -- it sounds... yummy because i say, there is nothing bad in the met that can't be resolved by what's goodin can't be resolved by what's good in it. i don't want my grandchildren to grope at the inequalities

and injustices, not just policing, but wider issues, just like my children's generation did. —— grow up with inequalities. myself, my pa rents inequalities. myself, my parents generation, it's got to change. i will keep going until my dying day. leroy logan, we have to end there. i thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hard talk. hello. thursday offers up the promise of a dryer day for the majority of the uk in comparison to wednesday. there should be some decent sunshine and the winds will be a little light as well. how are we managing that when our weather is dominated essentially by this massive area of low pressure for the coming days? one with actually seven centres

— but we are getting quite close to a little hill in the isobars. that is a brief ridge of high pressure that we will sit in through thursday. it's not plain sailing though, there will still be some more persistent rain across northern and eastern scotland through the day and coming into the southwest through the afternoon, some sharper showers that will push into wales, some for northern ireland, perhaps some more generally across southern britain later on in the day. but in contrast to wednesday, lighter winds, and the rain nowhere near as widespread — temperatures 111—15 degrees. we head through thursday evening, and we will start to notice something developing to the south of the uk. the rain towards the north pulls away, it becomes quite quiet here, skies clear, it's a largely dry night across scotland and northern ireland, and actually chilly in some rural spots. but to the south of the uk, we've basically got a hook that's formed, and this is a deep low pressure centre that is set to spin up across brittany, ploughing its way into france — the worst of the weather think

on the way to france. the french met service have given it a name, it's storm alex, and it looks like it will also affect southern britain, so hence our concern for friday, particularly through the early part of the day for heavy rain across southern counties of england pushing into south wales, and very strong winds, may be gusting up to 70 mph. even in land, though, 30—35 mph as that low centre spins away to the south of us and this weather from swings north. quite a contrast between the north and south on friday. england and wales, wet and windy. scotland and northern ireland, largely dry with some decent spells of sunshine. but for the weekend, we are still dominated by low—pressure, and as such, it looks like further bands of rain will sweep around this larger low with its centre to the south. i think some wet weather for all areas through the weekend, some strong winds at times too. the detail on this low, somewhat complicated, so it's very hard for us to pinpoint exactly when your area will get wettest of the weather. but that trend, i'm afraid, is very clear.

this is bbc news, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. my name's mike embley. the body that oversees us presidential debates says it'll take steps to ensure there is no repeat of wednesday's chaotic and angry contest. the un secretary general calls on richer countries to help out so everyone can get access to a potential covid vaccine. everybody to a potential covid vaccine. will only be protected everybody will only be protected when the countries in the developing world will also be able to vaccinate their citizens. protests in india — as the body of a young woman who was gang—raped is cremated without her family's permission. presidents putin and macron call for an immediate ceasefire in the conflict between azerbaijan and ethnic armenian forces. we have a special report.