measures saying is are these measures necessary. they are talking about eight to ten people not showing any symptoms. the huge cost of shutting down businesses and the hospitality industry. i think this speaks also to the fact why this new traffic light system has been announced yet because there was this big divide within the cabinet —— haven't been announced. you've got the health secretary matt hancock, his primary motivation is to make sure hospitals and cope and he wants to make sure the virus as low as possible. on the other hand, if you've got the chancellor who is primarily concerned about keeping the economy going as much as possible because we did dive very deeply into a recession after the lockdown. but the about bounce really quickly, and i think what rishi sunak is concerned about is if we go back towards cutting back economic growth, that will create a much bigger hole for the uk economy. much

more people will be and many businesses will simply throw in the towel, and that will have big consequences. towel, and that will have big consequences. that battle going on every day within the government, it's very clear that the mail in the telegraph are going against boris johnson's strategy there, and i think over the next couple of days, you'll see more of ministers of mps. let's have a look at the telegraph because the really interesting article about herd immunity. we've been hearing so much about this idea of herd immunity, whether it's been discredited or not. the headlines say herd immunity could have saved more lives than social distancing. this is going to approve really contentious. just talk us through the study that is suggesting the. yeah, so this is a study that's essentially reviewing the modelling that was produced back at the start of the pandemic that made that

prediction about 500,000 deaths. actually, going some of the detail, the suggestion is if we had allowed parts of the population that were healthy and young to just carry on with their lives, they would have essentially caught the virus, built up essentially caught the virus, built up some herd immunity. by essentially closing and shutting down and stopping some parts of the population from essentially getting immunity, what we've done is we now open up restrictions, it's meant that they are then passing it on. there is a move by some scientists to say lockdown is not the answer. i'm a bit sceptical. it's rare that you get any consistence. —— consensus. the main view by most scientist if you need to restrict and put restrictions in place, and

for me, the critical point is the logic of lockdown wasn't because we thought the virus would go away. it was tobias time —— to buy us time to put in place of effective test and trace and get numbers down so we knew where the virus was and keep it under control. the countries that have been successful, the countries that are still able to open up the economy are the ones that were able to get infection rates down, know where the virus was and put it com pletely where the virus was and put it completely effective trust and trace so you are keeping a lid on this thing until vaccine comes along. that's where we have failed, a lot of us have failed as well. this is the thing that we're now struggling with. sebastian, what's your take on this? at the beginning of all of this? at the beginning of all of this when we were... the uk was going into lockdowns and there was talk about herd immunity. we heard dominic cummings was quite eager to look into this. what do you think of

this? because i think there will be a lot of concern about where this will lead to. yes, i should actually just say that i think it would... patrick vallance, who was talking about herd immunity, it was actually mrcummings who was about herd immunity, it was actually mr cummings who was most in favour ina quick mr cummings who was most in favour in a quick and heavy lockdown in those early days. there was a very live debate in government about what was the correct way to go on this. i think nobody is really suggesting that would be the way to move forward , that would be the way to move forward, because look at the united states. well past 200,000 deaths from that, and the virus is running rampant across the country and the fa ct rampant across the country and the fact is the white house is now one of the most dangerous places on earth to go for coronavirus because of the president's blatant disregard for social distancing. anything to stop coronavirus from happening, i think the issue throughout this debate is we're learning so much about covid—19 all the time, and

that model at the beginning of the lockdown set if we don't lockdown and suppress the virus as miatta was talking about, we will have half a million people dead. of course, we don't actually know how many it would've been if we happen lockdown. it might have been far less, it's very ha rd it might have been far less, it's very hard to say. we are in the same debate now about how quickly the virus is spreading. there was that chart from the press conference that suggested that if action wasn't taken, infections could reach 50,000 a day. we might get to that point, we might not, but itjust highlights that there political decisions, not scientific decisions. whether to let the virus run across the economy and acce pt the virus run across the economy and accept the health risks of that versus the health risks to the wider economy and shutting down, that's the very difficult dishes and political leaders have to take. i think borisjohnson has broadly done the right thing, because if we didn't have the testing capability there was no sign of a virus, we had no handling of it of care homes and

hospitals. the question now is are these local lockdowns working? there's not a huge evidence of that, which means that we have to go hard on it? as we are talking about earlier, this needs to be more evidence and david got out there because the people in newcastle and liberal full have no idea —— data out there. —— liverpool. 0therwise, people will start to get tired of these restrictions, and that's the most dangerous thing that could lead to herd immunity. on that very of answer, you. “— to herd immunity. on that very of answer, you. —— very conference to herd immunity. on that very of answer, you. —— very conference of answer. always good to you get your opinions. we will be coming back to you very shortly and we will have a little bit more time, i hope, so we can discuss a little more in depth. we will be back very soon with some

more papers. hashtag is bbc papers if you'd like to follow our various conversations on social media. good evening. i'm john watson with the latest from the bbc sport centre. scotland's hopes of qualifying for the european championships have received a blow with news three key players will miss tomorrow's euro 2020 playoff semifinal with israel. it's after midfielder stuart armstrong tested postive for coronavirus. kieran tierney and ryan christie were identified as close contacts and must now self—isolate. kheridine idessane reports. 0n the eve of his biggest match of scotla nd 0n the eve of his biggest match of scotland manager a reminder that international football is far from immune firm covid—i9. a positive test for stuart armstrong means he's

out for ten days. a longer access for kieran tierney, told to self—isolate for 14 days. also self—isolating for a fortnight, ryan christie who misses the upcoming derby with rangers as well as the triple header with scotland. covid israel, it's in every part of society. it's in football, and it's just going to be the way it's going to be for the next, hopefully not too long. i know you like a challenge, but this is might be the biggest challenge. the challenge to ta ke scotla nd biggest challenge. the challenge to take scotland to the tournament was a lwa ys take scotland to the tournament was always there. it's tomorrow night to make sure we make the nation smile. 0n the way to do that and an empty pa rt 0n the way to do that and an empty part tomorrow is to beat israel and set upa part tomorrow is to beat israel and set up a winner takes all playoff final against norway or serbia. it's the biggest game in scotland's 's history since the playoff because it's the exact same. i'm looking

forward to trying to get this, this 23 or weight of scotland not being a major tournament because although the fans will be there, hopefully by the fans will be there, hopefully by the time it comes around, fans can be allowed back in. the preparations are five from dell not far from our reveal —— far from ideal. are five from dell not far from our reveal —— farfrom ideal. and are five from dell not far from our reveal —— far from ideal. and very difficult circumstances by this time tomorrow night, steve clark will have hope to overcome the odds and taken have hope to overcome the odds and ta ken scotland one have hope to overcome the odds and taken scotland one step closer to the dream of participating in next summer's zero 2020 championships. —— euro 2020. england manager gareth southgate has reminded his players of their responsibilities after tammy abraham, ben chilwell and jadon sancho were forced out of tomorrow's friendly with wales for breaking coronavirus rules. they could also miss sunday's game with belgium depending on the outcome of covid tests.

we talked about the responsibility of being an england player, how the spotlight is different when the story was in the paper earlier in the week. there was no mention of the week. there was no mention of the clubs, england players, even though they went with us, so that's a landscape we work with. players have to realise that. we've got ten with us this time who went with us in russia. they've done a lot of good work. we've asked the clubs within the communities and we've got results. some of the others haven't done that —— some of the younger ones haven't done that. they have to prove themselves, and they need to remember that it is an honour to play for england and all of these things as we selects was moving forward. do play a part in your thinking. sale sharks have missed out on the play offs and with it a shot

at the premiership title after forfeiting the final match of the season against worcester warriors. it was postponed on sunday and due to be played tonight after several players and staff tested positive for coronavirus. the club say they are devastated. worcester have been awarded the win, with bath the beneficiaries as they qualify for the playoffs. england netball coachjess thirlby has not travelled to new zealand for the three—test series after testing positive for coronavirus. thirlby is asymptomatic and self—isolating. the england team flew out to new zealand on wednesday and will quarantine for two weeks on arrival. novak djokovic is into the semi—finals of the french open after beating pablo carenno—busta. he got off a stuttering start losing the first set 6—4 and there were questions whether he might be injured, but he won the next three with little difficulty to make the last four at roland garros for the tenth time.

he'll face stefanos tsitsipas who beat andre rublev. former wimbledon champion petra kvitova is also through to the semi finals. she saw off germany's laura siegemund in straight sets. kvitova will play sofia kenin next. and finally tonight, news on two world records that fell in valencia's world record day, a one—off event staged in the spanish city. this was the women's 5,000 metres, ethiopia's letesenbet gidey beating the previous best by more than four seconds. she ran the distance in 14 minutes, 6.62 seconds to better the time set by tirunesh dibaba back in 2008. and uganda'sjoshua cheptegei smashed the men's 10,000—metre world record just minutes later. cheptegei ran the distance in 26 minutes and 11 seconds to beat kenenisa bekele's 15—year—old time by more than six seconds. it was his fourth world record in ten months, establishing himself as the stand

out men's middle distance runner. and that's all the sport for now. goodbye. hello. after not the most promising—looking of starts for the day for england and wales, the picture should improve quite dramatically this afternoon. a lot of the early cloud and rain sweeping away into the continent to leave us a drier picture with some sunny spells, but it will be wet first thing, particularly for southern and eastern areas. some of the cloud may linger across east anglia this afternoon. some heavy showers crossing scotland, one or two for northern ireland. temperatures 17 to the south in the sunshine, i2 degrees further north. through the evening and overnight, we see another area of showers sweep across scotland. some trail down into northern ireland and northern england. either side of that area of cloud and showers, there could be some pockets of frost for sheltered spots in england and wales and northern scotland. and then that whole system

will work its way, again, eastwards through friday. the exact positioning of the rain a little uncertain, but it looks like we'll see wetter weather sinking into southern and eastern england come friday afternoon. brighter conditions following on to the north—west, but some showers again for scotland.

this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. all eyes on the us state of utah as mike pence and kamala harris take centre stage at the vice presidential debate. a us court charges two members of isis — nicknamed the beatles — with murder, for killing american hostages in syria. life in a warzone — we report on the families trapped by fighting between azerbaijan and armenia. people here tell us this is the way it's been for the last few days. it's become the normal routine to have indiscriminate shelling.