a very warm welcome to bbc news. my name's mike embley, with special coverage of the us vice—presidential debate that ended about 30 minutes ago. mike pence and his democratic challenger, kamala harris, clash over the coronavirus crisis in the only us vice presidential debate. the american people have witnessed what is the greatest failure of any presidential administration in the history of our country. ifa if a vaccine emerges during the presidential administration, i think it is unconscionable. stop playing politics with peoples lives. we'll have analysis

of a debate that was far less rancourous than the clash between president trump and his democratic party challenger, in the first presidential debate. hello and thanks forjoining us. mike pence and kamala harris did their very best to make the vice—presidential debate a calm affair. the event in salt lake city was much more civil than the clash between president trump and joe biden. early exchanges were dominates by the coronavirus crisis and of course the debate has taken on added significance since mrtrump contracted the virus. senator harris said the trump adminstration's response to the pandemic had been the greatest failure in presidential history. vice—president pence accused her of undermining public confidence in an eventual vaccine. ifi if i may say, that rose garden event, that has been a great deal of speculation. my wife andl deal of speculation. my wife and i were honoured to be there. many people were tested for coronavirus and it was an

outdoor event which all about scientists regularly and routinely advised. the different here is, president trump trust the american people to make choices in the best interest of their health. joe biden and kamala harris consistently talk about mandates and not just with the coronavirus but a government takeover... thank you. thank you. the green new deal. we are talking about freedom. let's talking about freedom. let's talk about respecting the american people. we respect them when you tell them the truth, when you have the courage, speaking about things they may not want to hear but need to hear to protect themselves. this administration stood on information that if you had as a parent, as i woke up, and not have enough money saved up and now you stand in overnight because of the ineptitude of an administration

are willing to speak the truth to the american people. let's talk about caring for the american people. american people have had to suffer far too much because of the failure of this administration. it is asking too much of the people, that they would not be equipped the they need to help themselves, to protect their pa rents themselves, to protect their parents and their children. millions of people, something like 4 million people we think have already voted. sophie long is at the university of utah in salt lake city, if the bowls are to be believed, and they were wrong in 2016 with hillary clinton, really all kamala harris had to do is hold the line and mike pence had to move the needle. did you feel that there was anything from this that did that? yes, you are right, joe

biden has currently got a significant lead in the polls. they didn't get it very wrong in 2016 and, even if you do when at the popular vote as hillary clinton did that, it does not translate to victory because of the electoral couege because of the electoral college system of voting. they had two differentjobs. kamala harris had to maintain the lead and do no harm stop mike pence was seeking to turn it around. kamala harris i think did quite well as far as that was concerned. a much more civil debate. they were much more polite to each other than we heard from the presidential candidates last week which reduced itself to name—calling that debate. mike pence talked about what a pleasure it was to be on about what a pleasure it was to beona about what a pleasure it was to be on a stage with kamala harris and she acknowledged out he called her when she got the vp nomination. people wanted to

hear more substance. they had more policy. the moderator susan page took us through several subjects. top of the agenda was the pandemic. the safety precautions around this site are huge, not least because they have been several white house aides who have now tested positive and of course president trump is still recovering from the coronavirus. the plexiglas screen between the two, that was seated more than 12 feet apart. any fireworks tonight? not really. did they each throw some punches? yes they did and they landed but i think it seemed to be a tie. certainly, ido seemed to be a tie. certainly, i do not think there were any major gaps on the part of kamala harris. —— gaffs.

normally as soon as the debate is over would be in a spin room and obviously that cannot happen at this time around. not much discussion about policy so far but there was tonight. a big chunk on time about how to handle allies. china came up a lot. iran came up. could you discern what america's relations with the world would be like to really underjoe biden? as soon as the first question was over, we got onto a second question and when the subject of china came up, some question dodging. the vice president reluctant to describe what he saw the relationship

with china as. kamala harris when she got the chance to a nswer when she got the chance to answer that question, she said that america's standing internationally had been downgraded but no huge detail. that was a theme we started to see immediately after we got off the subject of the pandemic. the role of vice president was brought up and they were asked whether they had conversations about what would happen if they respective candidates were not able to continue. both did not even make any pretence in answering that question. although we did not have the interruptions we had anything presidential debate last week, a lot of avoiding of questions and the moderator susan page did not interrupted them or follow up on that. a lot of discussion about kamala harris being a

woman and a black woman and whether she held back and she is of course a former prosecutor, a very tough woman and we have seen in action in senate hearings and she did not follow that up either. she allowed mike pence to interrupt. some saying she was allowing him to do that and helping him to look like donald trump the week before. we talked about policy but also there were untruths. the fact checkers going on overdrive. we are hearing exactly what lay behind what the two candidates said. we touched on these earlier but these danger for the democrats that a bunch of people who voted democrat before may just stay people who voted democrat before mayjust stay home is so many of them did in 2016 with the consequences we all know about. did this feel to you like it was enough to change that? i don't know. it is

interesting. when all is said and done, the point of the debate is to speak directly to the american people and specifically to american voters who are as yet undecided. will this debate change anything like that? we had from kamala harris at the end of the debate on appealfor harris at the end of the debate on appeal for people to get out and vote. when you speak to people here on the ground in utah, a deeply religious and republican state, many people have said they have already made up their minds. they were interested to hear from kamala harris who they do not know much about but that it would not necessarily change the way they vote. that is crucial. both candidates want to mobilise people who have not yet decided to get them on board and get them out and vote because as we saw in 2016, they can be no complacency even though can be no complacency even thouthoe can be no complacency even though joe biden has can be no complacency even thouthoe biden has a

significant lead in the polls at the moment, that did not translate into victory for hillary clinton. even though she won in the popular vote, the electoral system of voting means you have to win states and go towards that magic number of 270. will this debate have changed much of that? i do not know but certainly a lot of people who wanted to hear from the candidates and hear more about what the next four years it would look like under either joe biden or president trump. that is interesting what the next four years would look like because, one of the criticisms of president trump over the la st of president trump over the last few months is that he has not made the case for the next four years. he has looked back was a lot. he has talked a lot about the china virus that is not made a compelling face forward except to say the economy will get much better and next year will be a strong

economic year and i am not sure we had from vice president pence tonight —— heard from. a compelling agenda for a second term in the way the vice president needed to do. we had a little bit more on economic policy from kamala harris, making the point that joe policy from kamala harris, making the point thatjoe biden would not be taxing people who earned less than $400,000. they need to make some ground under the economic side because they are behind on the polls economically and she was a key distress that several times during the course of her answer but i wonder whether she did enough to close that gap. i wonder whether there was enough ofan wonder whether there was enough of an agenda from either to make this debate about policy. will people take away from that debate realistically — i was listening and taking notes but lam not listening and taking notes but i am not sure i came away with

a clear massive policy choice that faces me. if i had been following this campaign enough, ido following this campaign enough, i do not think added that much and therefore all you come away from is impressions. mike pence very much said he was pro—life. kamala harris said she was pro—choice. that was the sta rke st pro—choice. that was the starkest moment. and it comes down to what you think about joe biden and donald trump.|j think you are right, suddenly on the economy. we had a vice president thank they will continue the v shaped recovery stuff i think you are right, katty, what we got from the candidates is what we expected. when you kamala harris would go in and want to prosecute the case against the trump administration for a failure of leadership particularly with their handling of the pandemic.

we knew he would want to painter is one of the most liberal senators in the senate at the moment and that they had been taken over by the radical left. they did what we expected them to do and they did it fairly well. i imagine donald trump was treating all the way through it saying mike pence was obviously winning. did the american people here a huge amount on policy? perhaps not really. certainly more than they did next week they will getan they did next week they will get an impression of the two candidates and i think they we re candidates and i think they were both very good and com pletely loyal to were both very good and completely loyal to their bosses and completely on message. kamala harris had to do that to maintain the lead in the polls he is enjoying and mike pence would have been second to turn that around. did he achieve that? we do not know yet. it is interesting, the questions that they chose to

dodge. the vice presidential role, the reasons are doing thatis role, the reasons are doing that is that neither want to betray that candidate as old. donald trump is at 74 and still recovering from a deadly virus which has killed more than 211 thousand americans. 0ther questions that they dodged, slightly surprising, perhaps the relationship with china and again when we heard about the supreme court. mike pence did not take the opportunity to a nswer not take the opportunity to answer that question and went back to the one before. it was an interesting debate to watch and very different to the one we saw last week but it remains to be seen how much policy detail the american public really god. . . got...

kamala harris did not take lightly to being questioned by mike pence about her previous role. i am the only one who has personally prosecuted everything from child sexual assault to homicide in this state. i am the only one on the stage who has prosecuted the big banks for taking advantage of american homeowners. i am the only one who prosecuted for profit colleges for taking advantage of our veterans. the reality of this is we are talking about an election in 27 days where last week the president of united states took to the debate stage in front of 70 million americans and refused to condemn white supremacist. not true. and it wasn't like he didn't have a chance. he didn't do it. then he doubled down. then he said when pressed, stand back, stand

by. he condemned the kkk, neo—nazis and white supremacist. he has done so repeatedly. you are concerned he doesn't condemn neo—nazis. president trump has jewish grandchildren, his grandson and granddaughter in law isjewish. this is a president who cherishes and respects all of the american people. you talk about personally prosecuted. i'm glad you brought that up. when you were da in san francisco, when you left office, african—americans were 19 times more likely to be prosecuted for minor drug offe nces prosecuted for minor drug offences than whites and hispanics. when you were attorney general in california, you increased the disproportionate incarceration of ducks in california. you did nothing on criminaljustice reform in california. you didn't lift a finger to pass the first step back on capitol

hill. kamala harris responding in particular to an assertion from mike pence that she was the most liberal member of the us senate to the left of bernie sanders, in fact. us senate to the left of bernie sanders, infact. katty, us senate to the left of bernie sanders, in fact. katty, you made this point there was an actual woman on the stage and that was really something, and the first woman of colour on a vice president shall ticket for a major party in american history. if elected, she would be the first woman vice president. that is a very strong image for a party, especially when there are apparently, quite a few women who have not decided which way to vote yet. and we would be remiss in saying there was also a fly on the stage at one point they got an awful lot of attention on social media, when attention on social media, when a fly landed on vice president mike pence's had, and it is all eve ryo ne mike pence's had, and it is all everyone on social media could talk about. but you are right about the thing about women. i have watched some of the reaction and we're starting to

get some reaction from the white house, predictably senior vice president did very well and he is ready to lead, he was well and then also saying kamala harris is not ready for prime time. that is kind of the initial read out from the white house, predictable. ithink initial read out from the white house, predictable. i think the thing about having a woman on the ticket is important. and i am getting some feedback on social media that men seem to have felt that mike pence won the debate and women felt kamala harris won the debate. so there might be some kind of gender split there in the audience reaction. but we know that women decide elections in america. they have decided the last six presidential elections. women are a critical pa rt elections. women are a critical part of the vote because they vote more than men do, some 55% of the people who actually vote tend to be women. so you have more women voting than man, you have two win over women —— than men, you have to win over

women. donald trump has haemorrhaged to support amongst women, and particularly since the last debate, when women didn't like what they saw from the president. that is why i think having kamala harris up there for 90 minutes, even if you were watching on mute, the fa ct you were watching on mute, the fact there was a woman up there and a man up there makes a difference. there is, you know, something was not women did not vote for olivia clinton in 2016, we know that, she didn't win and she tried to get women to vote for her. but it made a difference the missing those two together. and i think when mike pence was dropping the moderator repeatedly, but also potentially has made a difference. and i think the fa ct difference. and i think the fact kamala harris came across as eminently reasonable. she did not come across as a socialist left—winger in the way that the trump campaign has tried to paint her. she thought repeatedly about their economic plan, they are not going to be taxing people who are earning less tha n taxing people who are earning less than $400,000 a year, she

didn't sound like somebody on the very left of the american political spectrum. she does not sound like bernie sanders, for example. i do not think she is going to scare people from a policy point of view, necessarily, but i am still not convinced this debate will have changed very many minds. i thought that whatever your look, it is not a good look to have a guy interrupting a woman on that stage, just as president trump did in the last debate. this time over ten times was the count. i think. and there was power in kamala harris positive praise, mr president, —— mr vice president, i am speaking. president, —— mr vice president, i am speakinglj would say a couple of things. american presidential politics

isa american presidential politics is a blood sport. it is down in the gutter at times and both candidates, not just vice president pence, notjust senator harris, but both of them interrupted each other. they wanted to make their points, they overruled the moderator. they over spoke the moderator. they over spoke the moderator. but i would say this, as a person of colour, as one who has grown up and new john harris, the father of kamala harris, who has been the picture for a good bit of my life —— been in the picture, i am very proud of her accomplishments and was very proud she was on stage today. and as the vice president said, he never anticipated i would be here four years ago, i know how you feel. the most part, they we re very you feel. the most part, they were very respectful of each other. but the notion that somehow vice president pence as a male was dismissive of her for being female, i think is a false premise. i think they both did what they needed to do, which is to be very

forceful against each other and try to put their narrative forward. do you think, wrong, they will have moved the needle at all? i am sceptical. you can hear my scepticism. i am sceptical because i i'm not sure the vp debate does that anyway, and i feel it was pretty much a tie. both of them asi pretty much a tie. both of them as i was saying earlier, were more articulate than their bosses were, than the top of the ticket were in their last bait. kamala harris is more articulate, mike pence is more articulate, mike pence is more articulate than donald trump was. but i think it came out pretty much a wash, this one. you know, katty, ithink they both did what they needed to do. i think the vice president came out and he was very, very calm. i think thejunior senator from california, kamala harris came out and intended to land some punches for her running mate, but, you know what, in two hours, i don't think that will make any real difference. i think people will move on when there is the next

presidential debate. you know in the hippocratic oath that doctors take, do no harm. and candidly, i do not think it did any significant harm to their respective running mate. wrong, that matters particularly. sorry, michael, that helps the democrats, right? because if we believe the polls, and the democrats are ahead by 8— nine points, they do no harm strategy is more important —— the do no harm strategy is more beneficial on their site? that is right. looking at the polls 110w is right. looking at the polls now compared to where they were four years ago, senator clinton was up significantly. so my opinion here, national polls, we should be looking at this. we shouldn't be looking at polls that are looking at likely voters, not registered voters, and we should be looking at the key battleground states. what is going on in wisconsin, what is going on in ohio, what is going on in the upper midwest? to your point, i

think i am in the biden—harris campaign tonight, she did no harm and that will allow them to maintain at least the lead, if not only perceived, in the polls tonight. on the subject of interrupting women, i will try not to do it again. i think i interrupted you. that was definitely me. laughter i will not interrupt, i will let you sorted out. the thought, maybe i missed it, i cannot find anybody who heard it, there was no discussion about immigration. was not that about immigration. was not that a surprise question mark it was a surprise question mark it was a surprise question mark it was a surprise to me. this is something that is a very critical issue. not only in the united states but in america, oui’ united states but in america, our cousins to the south and north, canada and mexico, what are we going to do with

millions of americans who intend to migrate to america, from america, the united states and canada and uk. that was a missed opportunity to have raised both of those candidates. however they deal with immigration from the united states? —— how will they deal with immigration? united states? —— how will they dealwith immigration? defence of the last election where immigration was such a big issue in the 2016 campaign. there is no chance question wouldn't have come up in 2015. wrong, i'm interested in your ta ke wrong, i'm interested in your take on this. given where we are with the coronavirus and 211,000 arrogance are with the coronavirus and 211 , 000 arrogance have are with the coronavirus and 211,000 arrogance have died —— americans have died. i felt the vice president got off fairly lightly on covid—19. he managed to hold his own partly by not answering the questions. he was asked the question about how

does america have personally such a high level of covid death. he didn't answer it at all. but i felt he didn't get damaged as much as he might have done, given where america is in this virus? i agree with you on that. i think that was one of the biggest disappointment is that i had. susan page is the moderator, she allowed the vice president and senator harris do not a nswer and senator harris do not answer her questions. i believe is the individual who is responsible for the white house responsible for the white house responsible coronavirus, to be able to get away, i don't want to say scot—free, but you came away from that exchange in a far better position than he could have been, that is a boon to the trump— p campaign. i think these are significant questions that need to be answered, katty, and this is another missed opportunity in the debate tonight where she could have really pressed susan

page, the moderator, and the vice president on what was the vision, what was the strategy, and what will you do next. that largely went unaddressed. wrong, thank you very, i know you have to leave us very shortly. on that particular point, there was a power in kamala harris saying the american people have witnessed the greatest failure of any administration in the history of our country. they knew, the trump— p administration, from the end of january, trump— p administration, from the end ofjanuary, how trump— p administration, from the end of january, how bad trump— p administration, from the end ofjanuary, how bad it could be and how its spread. then turning to the camera, they didn't tell you. it's a trick she has taken from joe biden, talking straight down the camera, trying to reach people on their sofas or at their kitchen tables. this, in their kitchen tables. this, in the wake of these videos from president trump kind of supercharged on steroids, which he has finally mentioned the american people, saying he wa nts american people, saying he wants the same treatment he had free, for everybody. but still, a striking lack of empathy for the thousands and thousands of people who have lost loved ones. then we see at the end of

the whole thing, karen pence coming onstage, breaking all the debate rules with no mask. yes, because only three people in the entire hall were meant not to have masks. kamala harris, mike pence and the moderator. this election is about covid—19, this election is about the administration's handling of covid. in that respect, i think this might good have gone worse for the trump— pteam good have gone worse for the trump— p team than it actually did —— this night could have gone worse for the donald trump and michael p team. how on a have an economic point of view, from both of those metrics it does not look good. i want to pick up on one thing that ron said. ithink pick up on one thing that ron said. i think i said this last week after the presidential debate. this was not the fiasco that that was, but there has to bea that that was, but there has to be a better way for us to choose the next president of united states, for the american people to choose the next

president of the united states. yes, this was a calmer debate and there was more policy, but if candidates can repeatedly get away with not answering the question, and they are not actually doing that much of a service to the american people. the questions were good, they deserve to be answered, and both candidates didn't answer questions when they didn't want to and when it didn't suit them. there needs to be a revision of those debate structures, if we have those next debates next week. thank you very much for that. chris morris is with us from reality check. i know you do a job very assiduously. what have they found? i think, it was certainly a better debate than last weekend of the concern is weren't answering questions, let listen to the house of commons every day here in the united kingdom. i would say there were fewer

questionable at right false claims being made but there we re claims being made but there were certainly a number. let's look at coronavirus, this is a covid-19 look at coronavirus, this is a covid—19 election. donald trump had called coronavirus a hoax and we don't think that's right. went back to commence he made in february when he was talking about the impeachment process and he said that with a hoax he then went on to say that the criticism of his handling of covid—19 was a hoax. we know the president has often played down the virus, we know he has said it will one day magically disappear but listening very carefully to the words he used on that day, we don't think he has directly called it a hoax. is for the vice president, mike pence said the trump administration had suspended all travel from china in the early days of the pandemic and saved hundreds of thousands of lives. that claim is wrong. there was no blanket ban on travel from china. yes, chinese citizens were prevented by and large from coming but

there