donald trump has accused his opponents of misleading americans about the pandemic in order to discredit him. he accused the media of exaggerating the impact of coronavirus. and told voters they had a choice between a trump boom or a bite on lockdown. joe biden has made a scathing attack on donald trump's handling of the pandemic. he said the president had failed the people by refusing to endorse social distancing or encourage people to wear masks. he campaigned in georgia, estate not won by democratic party candidate in decades. scientists say levels of protective antibodies in people drop quite rapidly after covid—19 infection. research by imperial college london suggests immunity could only last a few months and many people could get reinfected. the drop was most noticeable in people over 65 and people who had not shown symptoms. now on bbc news, it's hardtalk.

welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. the beheading of a teacher by an 18—year—old outside paris struck a particularlyjarring blow to the french psyche. samuel paty was murdered for teaching his students, including young muslims, about freedom of speech, including the freedom to mock religion. his killing was seen as an attack on france's secular values. my guest is dominique schnapper, president of a council which advises the government on secularism in education. is the macron government getting its response to this tragedy right?

dominique schnapper in paris, welcome to hardtalk. welcome. thank you. well, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. i think we have to begin with the horrible, brutal murder of samuel paty on october 16th outside the school in which he taught, not very far from paris itself. he was murdered by an 18—year—old young man who is a product of the french school system himself. given your position as an adviser to the government on secularism in education, i would very much like you just to give me your immediate response when you heard the news of this terrible crime.

it was absolutely horrible. it took me more than a week to recover from the shock. of course, there was this man, who was obviously a wonderful teacher and a man full of conviction and energy. and then there was the meaning of this, because all what we do in this council, the council of the wise, we're supposed to be wise, which i'm not sure i am, we explain that we have... that the teachers have to explain to young people whether they are muslims or not muslims, what are the principles and what are the values of the laicite, which is the french form of secularism, and how important it is to admit the religion of the others and not to discuss religion in school. and that's exactly what we advise teachers to do. it's exactly what this teacher did.

and the results were the fact that he was murdered. so, there was the fact — the fact itself is horrible — and the political meaning of the fact is terrible for all of us. and as i told you, i needed more than a week to recover from the shock it was for me and for all of us who believe in democratic values. ijust wonder whether, with the shock, you felt any sense of a failure, because, as i said, the young man, the alleged killer, abdullakh anzorov, who's of chechen ethnic origin, but i believe he lived in france from a very young age. i think from six years old. he had gone through the french education system. yourjob, you know, as an adviser with the counsel of the wise is to ensure that young menjust like him emerge from the french school system with a real understanding

of this laicite, this secular commitment that underpins the french republic. but clearly, it didn't work. yeah. it didn't work. it's a failing, not a personal failure, of course, but it's a failure of the whole system. something is going wrong. and the tragedy is that we knew, since the beginning of the new century, because the first book on the question was in 2002. it was a book called les territoires perdus de la republique, which described exactly how some parts of the french educational system was completely taken... ..taken up by the hands of the islamics. and there was a report of...an official report of 2004 that described that in some lycees of the...

..public lycees of the republic, jewish children couldn't stay because it was impossible for them to be secure and it was dangerous for them to be there because of the muslim children, the other students. and so we knew that. so you are... we knew that. you are convinced then that there is, what, a very specific and deep problem with some young muslim students in france's schools, who are bringing with them cultural values, religious beliefs, and a worldview which is entirely antipathetic to what you believe the french republic stands for? in some parts. of course, it's not the case everywhere, but in some parts of the territory, yes, there is this problem. and the ministers, one after the other, didn't want to publish these reports. they want to say, "well, you know, everything

"will be solved. "let's be calm. "let's not be frightened." it will be.... and it didn't. it went on and on. and it was more and more. and this young man, the man who killed, the murderer, arrived when he was five, i think, from what the press said. so he went through the whole system, educational system. so this was really a failure. and why this failure? that has to be... you know, that has to be taken as an issue we have to discuss. and the... yeah? no, i'm sorry to interrupt you. i just want to get to grips. this concept of laicite, of secularism. yes. it's very interesting to me because obviously i'm not french and many people around the world will not be so familiar with just how central and how important this word appears to be in french culture. and it seems to me it's actually gaining in importance. i mean, it's been there

since really the founding of the republic. but it's much more important today, it seems, than ever before. to me, it almost sounds, when you use the word... and you talk about... i've seen public statements where you talk about the training of future citizens. "secularism must at all costs be preserved, transmitted, "made explicit in our institutions, "including the schools." it sounds a bit like indoctrination. well, i know that's very difficult for the british to understand, so i will try to do it, but i'm not sure i will succeed in doing it. laicite, it'sjust the french form of a general principle of democratic societies. that means the separation of religion from the state and the public sphere. so this is not special to france. it's the case of all democracies. which is special to france is the fact that the democracy

or the republic was born against traditional legitimacy, that means the catholic church and the king, and therefore the democracy, contrary to british and to the united states, has been constructed around the idea of a complete separation. that separation, of course, means that the state is neutral and in the public sphere, in the public space, one has to be discrete about a religious affirmation. but that is part...that is part of our heritage. it's... you can understand it by the history. but hang on. if i may... and it has always been important. if i may stop you there. what you're saying, madame schnapper, is very interesting. but if i can stop you there. there are people who look at what's happening in france and say that actually this concept of laicite, secularism, is changing, where once

it was more of a guarantee of freedom — freedom of conscience, freedom to exercise whatever religious belief you chose to have — and that the state would not get involved. now it's become a much more proactive concept where the state appears to be telling french citizens, particularly those of muslim origin, that we want you to act and behave and think in a particular way. we want france to be homogenous, not diverse. and that, to many muslims, appears to be undermining the value of their own culture, their belief system, who they are. it's not more active now than it used to be. but it has more enemies now. and muslim culture has some dimensions which are contrary to democratic values. to give you an example, some parents in french schools don't want children — three, four and five years old — they don't want

girls to be next to boys. they don't want the girls to play with the boys. and the parents come into the school and said that the girls shouldn't play with the boys. and some fathers stayjust outside the courtyard where the children play to check that their daughter is not playing with boys. well, that's an issue. that's an issue for a democratic society, whether there's laicite or not. and we don't have to accept that. let us move to the specific case of samuel paty, because i am interested in what he was doing and your response to it. because mr paty, as part of his commitment to teaching the secular values that you, of course, believe in, he was introducing his class to notions of freedom of expression. and he had decided that he was going to cite the example of the satirical magazine charlie hebdo and its use of cartoons depicting the prophet muhammad, which, of course, were mocking and making fun of the prophet muhammad.

now, we know the background of that and we know that france has experienced terrible violence as a result of that response from islamist radicals to what charlie hebdo did. but my question to you is, was, in your view, mr paty absolutely right, despite the fact he knew that there were a high number of muslims in his class, to insist on showing those cartoons to the class? and was there any room, perhaps, for a discussion of what's sensitive, of what works in a class which is very diverse in its background? well, it's difficult to answer because i was not in the class and we only have testimonies of exactly what happened. but from all of us, we can say from what we know, of course, because nobody was there except monsieur paty and his students, he was going to explain the fact that charlie hebdo is mocking

all religions, christianity even much more than islam orjudaism, all religion. that is part of also... i mean, cartoons are part of our political history. and you don't have to attack any muslim or any believer in any religion, but you can criticise religions. you're free to criticise religion, and this difference between, you know, criticising religions and criticising the people is at the heart of what he was teaching. yeah. and... i'm asking out of genuine interest whether, when we are talking about the school system, about educators, teachers addressing young minds, whether there is any room for concepts such as sensitivity and moderating messages, or whether your commitment to this secular ideal, this secular idea,

is so complete and so overwhelming that, really, notions of sensitivity don't come into it. well, when you come to a country, every country has its own tradition and its own way of dealing with the problem of separating religions — the plural — all religions from the state and, well, the french tradition, i don't think it's better than british or american, let's be clear on this. but you can explain it by the history of...the republic in france and by the fact that there's a whole philosophical tradition about the freedom which secularism gives to people, because you're free to believe or not to believe, to have one religion, have another religion, and the fact that all the public...

..the public sphere is separated from religion is a way you get to the freedom of speech. that's the product of a certain history. but. ..madame schnapper. .. i just wonder, madame schnapper, whether you understand, whether you can put yourself in the place of a muslim french citizen who perhaps sees things happening in france today and feels that the way they are, the way they look, the way they think, the way they worship is not valued, that they are not truly treated as equal french citizens. and i'll think of two examples. one was just a couple of weeks... a few weeks ago, in a high—profile parliamentary hearing, one french politician, joined by a few others, walked out of a hearing simply because one of the people attending the hearing was a young muslim woman who had covered her hair with an islamic headscarf.

now, that, to many muslims, seemed very symbolic. and then there was the question of the interior minister, who, in the wake of the paty killing and everything the government has said since, has been talking about the degree to which he's shocked that he goes to supermarkets and sees shelves dedicated to halal product, what he calls communitarian cuisine. he said that's how communitarianism starts, as though somehow being muslim in france today is somehow unacceptable. no, that's not true. for the majority of the muslims — let's be clear on that — the majority of the muslims are integrated in french society. you meet muslims everywhere in everyday life, whether in the university or in the shops or everywhere. there is an issue, a political issue, with a minority, but an extremely active minority. of course, there are some excesses and there are find...

..there are some kind of discrimination, but there is nothing really against muslims in themselves. there is a political issue with an islamic project. but muslims don't feel that. do you understand that... who told you that? but muslims look at... who told you that? look at the economic prospects of muslims as opposed to the rest of the french citizenry. you know, i think in saint—denis, one of the suburbs where many, many muslims live, just out on the edge of paris, an unemployment rate of close to 30%. young muslims know when they apply for jobs and they have a muslim or a north african name, then the likelihood of them getting a job is very, very low. there is discrimination across france, and that plays into this feeling that they have that they are not truly within your republic treated with egality and fraternity. well, those who feel like that, some of them do feel like that, but it's the minority. and this is an active and

politically active minority. the majority of muslims, we have normal relationships with them, you see. and the idea... of course, there are some racists in france, like in all countries, and there's nothing new about that. but the idea that it's very difficult to be a muslim in france is just not true. there is some prob... and you talk about saint—denis, which is a very poor suburb of paris in the north. and of course, there are some muslims. and as you know, first and second generations of migrants are rarely at the top of the important banks of a country. i mean, they need one to two or three generations to get really integrated. we do integrate and we did integrate them very well until the end of last century. something has gone wrong for the last 20 years. i talked to you about this first report of 2002, and remember that the twin towers are 2001, so there

is a general problem of the islamic world in all our countries. of course, it's the minority which talks and the majority which expresses itself. and they should do it because there are some racists in france, like in all countries. but to have the image first that the poor muslims have no possibility to be part of french society, that first question, and second, that this is linked to the tradition of the french societies, these two... ..these two hypotheses are just not wrong. just wrong and are not right. well, let me... let me ask you, then, a more political question, because you are a woman who has spent her career in high—profile academia,

with your sociology background, but you've also advised the government in various different areas before you got to advising them on secularism in schools. in commissions. yes, that's right. so i wonder what you believe... do you believe that president macron‘s reaction to the horrible killing of samuel paty has been wise? he's now using all of the language of war, of enemies, of beheading islamist organisations, essentially putting the country on some sort of war footing, internally, with what he calls this unacceptable islamist organisation? is that wise? well, it's the first time after 20 years where the things... ..where the situation has not been named, that the president, the president of the republic,

which as you know is absolutely central and essential in the french political life, says the facts directly. the point is that the tone is shifting, because early in october, macron made a big speech about what he feared to be the separation of muslims from the rest of france. and he said, you know, "we blame the islamist "organisations that encourage the separation, but we must "also blame ourselves because we have allowed the..." "ghettoisation," he called it. "..of so many muslim citizens "who live in poor neighbourhoods, "they do not havejobs and we in france must accept "responsibility for that." but just a few weeks later, after the killing of mr paty, mr macron‘s using a very different language. he's now absolutely using the language of declaring war and beheading islamist organisations. in a sense, frankly, he's adopting some of the imagery that the radicals use on the other side. i'm just asking for you,

as a sociologist, to tell me whether you think that is going to be helpful to france. helpful, i don't know. i think there is something new with macron that, after 20 years where nothing has been really said about the question, and that the political issue has not been recognised neither by the french nor by the other democratic countries, nor britain, nor germany, at least i think he named the issue, and i think... i don't think he was wrong. and at stake, it's a really a political enterprise against democracies in general. and we don't have to be too provincial, the french and the british, and see the world more generally. and there is an attack. there is a political attack against democracies

and the presence... we have a very, very numerous muslim population, as you know, something like six million, around 10% of the population. we have the greatestjewish community too and we, the french, have a foreign policy which is more active than the other europeans. for all these political reasons, the attack is particularly on france. let me ask you one final question. if you forgive me for saying this, and i mean this in the most positive way, you have lived a very long and full life and you have seen france evolve over many, many decades. are you more fearful for the unity of france, for the cohesion of france today than you've been before? yes, i think there is a great... there has been a change around 20 years ago. you know, we are a great

country of immigration. we have the same kind of figures as the americans. we always had for the 19th and 20th century. i wrote a book on the question in 1991, where i was very optimistic, saying that, you know, it's a new stage in the history of the way france integrates newcomers, immigrants from various countries. and it seemed to be the case. and what happened 20 years ago, i couldn't say it exactly, but i think it's really... something has been rusted into the social fabric and the divisions and the brutality of the relationship, the way people talk. but it's not. . . it's not only in france. look at america for the last four years. there is something... there is something rude and brutal about relationship, which you can feel in france as well as in other

democracies. dominique schnapper, we have to end there, but i thank you so much forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you. i don't think i've convinced you of anything. laughter hello there, it's going to remain very unsettled for the rest of this week thanks to areas of low pressure which will bring spells of rain and gales at times. today also very unsettled. we've got sunshine and blustery showers, these heavy and thundery across western and southern areas. all tied in with this area of low pressure which actually contains the remnants of what was hurricane epsilon. some extremely strong winds on its southern flank racing

across the north atlantic and that is generating some very big waves today across some western coastlines. you could even see some disruption to the ferry services for western scotland at times. and if you are walking out near the coastline in the west, just take extra care. now, lots of showers will be affecting many western portions of the uk. some merging together to produce longer spells of rain for parts of wales, central and southern england though some brighter echoes indicating some hail and thunder mixed into some of the heaviest of the showers. the best chance of seeing the lengthier sunny spells will be across the eastern parts of england but it will be a cooler day today than we what had yesterday, 10—13 celsius. the showers continue on for a while during wednesday night but then they begin to fade away. the skies clear and it turns a bit chilly in the far north and east but further west, temperatures begin to rise with the next weather system arriving, bringing more wet and windy weather. you can see it here on the pressure chart racing up from the south west, lots of isobars on the chart. so, it's going to turn

very windy once again. so, wet for southern and western areas to start thursday, dry and bright in the north. the rain will eventually reach much of scotland, all but the northern isles. behind it, it will tend to turn a little bit drier, perhaps a little bit brighter but it will be windy. you will notice milder airgetting in the mid—teens celsius here. 11 degrees across the north of scotland. thursday night will remain very windy and mild, and it will stay wet across northern and western areas. in fact, rainfall totals really starting to mount up across parts of western scotland, northern and western england, and wales where we could see some minorflooding by the end of friday. it starts to brighten up for scotland and northern ireland into the afternoon, and we could see some brighter spells across the south—east. and given that very mild air mass, we could see 18 or 19 degrees across the south and east. as we head on into the weekend, more low—pressure systems racing off the atlantic, some very deep ones here which could bring a spell of gales or even severe gales in places.

this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. i'm mike embley. with one week to go until the us election, campaigning intensifies for donald trump and his rivaljoe biden. president trump is just arriving in nebraska for the latest of his many rallies. a warning from scientists that levels of covid—19 antibodies in people who've been infected diminish rapidly. a country with enough to deal with already — now doctors in syria warn of a covid catastrophe. we have a special report.