national lockdown in france over the friday until the end of november. present micron would say people would only be allowed to leave home for essential work, shopping, exercise or emergencies. not essential businesses such as restau ra nts a nd bars essential businesses such as restaurants and bars were closed book schools and factories will remain open. tough new measures in germany, too — bars, restaurants, and much of the leisure sector will shut for the whole of next month. the two adults and two children who died when a migrant boat sank in the english channel yesterday have been identified as members of the same kurdish—iranian family. their 15—month—old boy remains missing. the family had been living in a migrant camp in dunkirk in northern france. now on bbc news. hardtalk with stephen sackur.

welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. according to the polls, joe biden is favourite to be the next president of the united states, but the party's leaders bear deep scars from 2016. then, donald trump overcame the odds and beat hillary clinton. he claims he can do it again next week. even if biden wins, does america really know what his presidency would look like? well, my guest is one of the most senior democrats in congress, house majority whip jim clyburn. is democratic party confidence more than skin deep?

congressman jim clyburn in columbia, south carolina, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much for having me. let's start with the horse race aspect of trump versus biden. all the polls, the national polls, have mr biden up by eight, nine, even ten points, some of them — but how deep are the scars from 2016? how worried are you that there is a hidden trump vote that is going to come out on november 3rd? well, i don't think that there is any more of a hidden trump vote than there is a hidden biden vote. i know from my own experiences, there are people who i have talked with in recent weeks who are very much for biden, but they don't want anybody to know it.

they interact with people who are for trump for whatever reason, and they want to be secretive about it. so, i think there are some secretive trump voters, but i also know there are some secretive biden voters. those things will pretty much cancel themselves out. i don't know of anybody who voted for hillary but is going to vote for trump — but i know a lot of people who voted for trump against hillary who are now going to be voting for biden. you are a very experienced campaigner. i think you first won your house seat back in 1992, if i'm not wrong, you know all about what makes campaigns work — and one of the key factors is energy. i look at the pictures coming over from the us of trump rallies, and i look at biden‘s public events, and, let's be honest, there is no question there is far greater energy on the trump side of this campaign. does that worry you?

well, i beg to differ. there's far greater public energy — but let me tell you something, as we are communicating at the moment, this kind of communication is taking place with the biden campaign all over this country. i will be doing several of these today. i did several yesterday. i'll be doing it — and i've been doing it for weeks. so, i do believe that the energy is in the biden campaign, it's just not on public display, simply becausejoe biden has decided to demonstrate with his action the kind of president he's going to be — and that is to say, we are going to have a national plan to combat this virus. we're not going to violate the protocol about having these public events where people

are not masked, are not socially distancing, and he's going to do by example what he wants people to do in this country. so, that's why he's not having these public events. that's why i'm not having these public events, because i'm trying to demonstrate... in fact, my dad used to tell me all the time when i was growing up, "son, if you're going to be a leader, "you lead by precept and example. "don't ask anybody to do that which you will not do." and so that's why the public display is there for trump, but the energy is right in this campaign. it'sjust, like, floating about, the energy that's created — it's underwater, but it moves the boat. i understand the point you're making, congressman clyburn, but, nonetheless, joe biden has made public appearances, not least in the debates, and he still does attend some

rallies, and questions have been raised about his mental acuity, if i can put it that way, and democrats over many months have made a point of claiming that donald trump in different ways is unfit for office. are you entirely sure thatjoe biden, well into his mid 70s — later 70s, in fact — are you sure he's fit for office? well, let me tell you this, i think i'm fit for office, and i'm older than joe, so i don't think age necessarily dictates what a person will do. i think he's more mentally and socially fit than donald trump, and trump is younger thanjoe. so, the question remains, what determines fitness for office? it certainly ain't insulting everybody that you come in contact with demonising, especially, african—american women.

that, to me, is what makes him unfit. if you deal with everything else. right. so... yeah — it doesn't look good, though, does it, whenjoe biden seems to forget the name of the man he's running against in the middle of a rally? look, joe biden has had a problem with stuttering since his childhood. i told him ten years ago to come public, be public about his stuttering, and he kept that under wraps pretty much until this campaign — and he's been public with it, and that's why you don't hear people dealing with it. that's not forgetting the name, when you are stuttering, that is a disability that a lot of people have, and it's got nothing to do with his mental capacity, and we know it. i guess the bigger question is, who really isjoe biden, and what kind of president would he make? because he's given some very mixed messages.

early in the election cycle, he reassured his wing of the democratic party that, quote, "nothing would fundamentally change" were he to be president. more recently, he's been saying, quote, "we need some revolutionary institutional changes "in the united states." so, what is he — the pragmatist of the status quo or the guy who wants radical change? he is a guy who faces challenges when they come up. when we wrote thejohn r lewis voting rights act, we thought we had a real good bill — but i've told everybody in my caucus in the last couple of weeks, what has come out during this campaign tells me we do not have a good enough piece of legislation, and that's what has happened. we all find out in campaigns that there are certain things you make assumptions about, that you find out that maybe you need to make some corrections on. so, i understand exactly whatjoe is talking about. he would be an idiot if he could see things

developing and then not do anything about it. who would believe that we would have a president of the united states who refuses to commit to a peaceful transfer of power? that means we need to do something. who would believe that we would have a president of the united states who would deny science? we need to do something. voter suppression. right... we need to do something. ..but let's, let's get detailed about some of this stuff, because it is really not clear to me exactly what joe biden would do. for example, let us take his running mate, kamala harris. now, he deliberately appointed her claiming, you know, she was going to make the ticket perfect for the united states. she is described by the trump campaign as one of the most liberal members of the entire us senate — and her record shows that she supports a very radical green new deal. she supports medicare for all. she even supports the legalisation

nationwide of marijuana. so, is that what we should take now as biden‘s policy stand, that he and kamala harris are going to be out and out progressive left democrats? i have never in my life seen the number two person on the ticket dictate the policies of the ticket. we had ronald reagan take on george hw bush as his running mate. when hw bush referred to ronald reagan's economic policies as "voodoo economics", they were able to reconcile those differences and they had a pretty good team. yes, when people are running against each other, as these two people did, you draw lines in the sand, you lay out certain proposals, but when you come in number two, that's exactly what you are — number two. number ones set the rules. yeah, but, you know, americans have a right to know where biden stands on key policy issues, like how much, for example, he's going to tax,

how much he's going to spend, how committed he is to a green new deal which would revolutionise the american economy — and i'm telling you again, if you look at the words of, for example, representative ilhan 0mar, one looks at alexandria 0casio—cortez, they now say that they believe their agenda is going to be pushed forward by a biden presidency. so are you telling americans that they should look to a left, progressive biden white house? i'm telling them to listen to biden. if you don't want to listen to biden, listen tojim clyburn. i'm not for a green new deal. so, should joe listen to me, or listen to somebody else? i'm not for medicare for all. that's the point — mr clyburn, that's the point. america doesn't know who he's listening to, because he flip—flops. just to take one very specific example, when it comes

to the green agenda and fossil fuels in the united states, he has, over a year or so, completely flip—flopped on the issue of fracking. in 2019, he said fracking would be eliminated. in 2020, he said he opposed new fracking, and yet quite recently he went to pennsylvania, home of a lot of gas deposits, and he said, "i am not banning fracking. "let me say it again. "i am not banning fracking." joe biden has become the flip—flopper. that's not a flip—flop. he said, "i'm against fracking on public land." he said we should transition away from fossil fuels. i believe that. he says, "i am not against fracking now "simply because we need to transition." the same people who are now big oil companies should become energy companies. you shouldn't be an oil

company, should be an energy company, and you should develop energy as it's appropriate, and what would be good to maintain credibility with the environment within which we live. so exxonmobil should be exxonenergy. that's what i think, and that's what i'm advising him. that's what he thinks. that's why he calls himself a transition president, because he wants to see us transition away from fossil fuel to clean energy. well, to be honest, he seems to think different things at different times, but the most basic question of all... i don't see it that way. ..when it comes to managing the economy is about taxing and spending. so, you tell me, very simply, are taxes going to rise underjoe biden? corporate taxes will go up to 28% underjoe biden. he's made that very clear. what about america's workers, both those who are on medium incomes and those who earn quite a lot, they are going to pay more tax? no, they're not going

to pay more taxes. he's made it very clear. he will not raise the taxes of middle—income people. and i'm telling you, i'm the house majority whip, i will not whip legislation to do that... because, you see... he can't do... yeah. sorry to interrupt, mr clyburn, we've got a little delay on the line, but this is really interesting, cos i've been looking at some of his spending plans, the biden spending plans, on infrastructure appear to amount to something over $4 trillion on expanding health care across america, another $2 to $2.5 trillion. we're talking massive, massive spending plans which will take america's national debt sky—high, but will also require serious amounts of taxation unless you're going to ruin the public finances. look, if you want to look at one side of the equation, that's fine. if we're going to have a massive infrastructure programme, yes, it's going to cost money, but it will generate money as well. it will generate income. we will put people

back to work. we would have water and sewer programmes going the way we should have it. we would have job creation like you've never had before. and a lot of experts have looked at his plan and said it would create significant numbers of jobs. we've got a corporate tax rate that's now down to 21%. no corporations asked for it to be that low. they welcome it going back up to 28. that's what we thought we were doing. we woke up one day and it was 21. i don't know why trump did that. i know it was wrong. and i know it's destroyed affordable housing in this country because it's no longer viable for these developers to do affordable housing because of their tax bill. we're going to take a look at all of that and see how to balance books. it is out of balance, and joe biden will put balance back into our tax laws.

well, balance is an interesting concept. i'm just going to tell you what the independent committee for a responsible federal budget have calculated about a biden presidency based on his own spending promises. they reckon it will add $5.6 trillion to the us national debt over the next ten years, and that would take debt as a proportion of gdp, national income, to around 128%. is that acceptable to you? well, i'm not an expert in all of that, but i'll tell you what is unacceptable to me — it is unacceptable for the wealthy people in this country to get the kind of tax breaks they got off that trillion 0.2... ..uh... ..tax...plan that trump put in place. and he put taxes on churches, on charities. he started taxing people that's

never been taxed before. and he gave this big tax break to all these wealthy people, and experts say that over the last several years, since then... ..the wealthy people have made $400 billion, while the low income people have gotten poor, while the wealth gap has gotten wider. that's what we are going to... when i say balance, we're going to put balance back into it. let me ask you about something which is less about specific policy, more about tone and about political style. joe biden, in all of his video and all of his personal appearances, he tells america he's a decent guy whose ambition is to draw americans together again, to heal the wounds, to unite the country, to get over this period of polarisation and division. how is he going to do that when you... ..well, i don't know about you personally, but you in the party have

vilified donald trump as a racist for month upon month upon month? people in their tens of millions will vote for donald trump. are you telling them that they are racist, too? no, i'm not telling them anything. you know, i have my feelings about donald trump. donald trump looked into a camera and referred to a black woman as a dog. i'm the father of three black women. i'm the son of a black woman. i don't respect anybody who denigrates black women. and he does it day in and day out. you can decide whether or not he's racist, but i take him at his word. he referred to kamala harris, the first woman of colour to be on a major party ticket as a monster. so you can be anything you want to be. if you want to vote for him, fine, but i want to see

the black man, or woman, anybody born of a black woman, can abide this man looking into a camera and referring to a black woman as a dog. that's where i am. i draw the line there, and you can call it anything you want to call it. but my point is that you know better than i that whatever the result next week, let's assume, hypothetically, that biden wins, many tens of millions of americans will have voted for donald trump. and i'm asking you, how are you going to bring them into this broad tent that joe biden claims he's going to build? because hillary clinton talked about " baskets of deplorables". she said that people who voted for trump, in her view, were racist, sexist, homophobic and xenophobic. and many americans, particularly trump voters, probably believe that if you pick away beneath the surface, the democratic party still sees trump voters in that same vein. well, that's not true. the democratic party doesn't see trump voters in that vein.

many of us see trump in that vein. a lot of people vote for trump out of loyalty to the party, a lot of people vote for trump out of loyalty to other things. they aren't necessarily racist, but there are some racists who do support him, and they made it very clear. david duke is a big racist, and he says he views trump as one of them. so the racists are supporting him, but there are a lot of people who will vote for him who are far from being racist. they got other reasons for voting for him and they may have the capacity to overlook his shortcomings. i don't have that capacity. all right. two quick questions, congressman. two quick questions about what might happen after a biden victory, if biden achieves such a thing. number one, there are democratic congressmen who sit in the house alongside you. i'm thinking of eric swalwell, for one, from california,

who have called for the creation of a presidential crimes commission, made up of independent prosecutors looking at exactly what donald trump did, and who aided and abetted him. do you think that would be good for america? oh, it may be. i have no idea what will be incorporated in that. i think we have found, in this campaign, that a lot of things that we consider to be untoward are being done by this president. and we need to find out whether or not... ..who he owes $400 billion to... $400 million. would that be the healing and the bringing america together that biden promised? oh, it could very well be. you know, we had racial reconciliation in south africa and we had a commission to do that as a way of bringing people together. you've got to cleanse the soul, and you bring people together around a unified front. you can't let these things continue to fester out

there and think it will bring people together when there's suspicion. let's do what is necessary to clear the air, so to speak, cleanse the process and then build upon that. and a second specific challenge after the election, which will exercise many in the democratic party — what to do about the supreme court. thanks to the confirmation of amy coney barrett, there is now a clear 6—3 conservative majority built into the supreme court. there are democrats — i'm thinking, for example, of senator ed markey — who say, quote, "we must now expand the supreme court." there are going to be calls forjoe biden to lead on that. do you think that would be wise for the healing in america? it could very well be. the supreme court wasn't always nine. how did we get to nine, and when we got to nine, and why do we go to nine? so the question is, do we need to go to 11, 12, 13? i think a baker's dozen

might be a good number. i don't know. let's have some studies. so you're ready to pack the supreme court to overcome what is the current political tone of that court? you're prepared to pack it and then tell america that you still want to end the division and the polarisation? to the contrary, sir, i'm prepared to unpack the court. the court has been packed for the last seven years. that's why barack 0bama did not get his appointment, because mitch mcconnell was trying to pack the court. i want to unpack the court. just a final thought. we watched this election unfold. many people worry that after november 3rd, there will be chaos. we know that there are indeed some militias, some armed groups, who are threatening chaos if they don't get the result they want. how worried are you that there will not be order, stability and calm after this us

election? i have no idea what there will be after this election. i remember the election of 1960. going into that election. i remember the democratic convention of 1960. and so we've had these kinds of activities in our history. the question is, whether or not we can have the kind of leadership to get us through that. i don't think donald trump can do that because he is the cause of it. much of it. and i thinkjoe biden could get through it because he has the capacity, the compassion, the empathy, all these things that are required of leaders to get people through trying situations, none of which are in the dna of donald trump. congressman jim clyburn,

i thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. well, thank you. hello there. the weather shows no real sign of calming down over the next few days. more heavy rain, more strong winds in the forecast. we've got low pressure spinning here. you can see that on the satellite picture. you can also see this pipeline of cloud that is now ploughing in towards the british isles. a set of weather fronts bringing some heavy rain through thursday. but between these two weather fronts, there is a wedge of mild air. so, although we're expecting some wet and windy weather

through the day ahead, it will turn a little bit milder. so, here comes the rain. some very heavy and persistent rain moving in from the west as we go through the day, pushing its way northeastwards across wales, england, northern ireland, getting up across much of scotland. now, the heaviest bursts of rain are likely to be across hills of north wales, north west england, south west scotland. could be some localised flooding issues here. and it will be windy. gusts of a0 to maybe 50 mph or a touch more than that in the most exposed spots. the far north of scotland will hold onto brightness. we'll see something a little drier towards the south west later. and it will feel mild, highs of 11—15 degrees. through thursday night into the early hours of friday, we keep a pipeline of cloud, some outbreaks of rain in places, particularly over high ground in wales, north west england, also some rain working back into north west scotland. temperatures between 9—13 degrees, an exceptionally mild night, a very mild start to friday. now, as we go through the day, outbreaks of rain will increasingly become confined to southern parts of england, south of wales. further north, we'll actually see brighter skies developing,

some spells of sunshine here and there. but it will cool off through the day across northern areas, whereas the south and south east will hold onto some mild air, 17—18 degrees. and then we get to the weekend, and here comes another area of low pressure. look at all the white line squashing together, all the isobars. this is a deep area of low pressure that will bring some very strong winds, some outbreaks of heavy rain pushing eastwards. those winds gusting up to 50, 60, maybe 70 mph in exposed places in western scotland. temperatures through saturday, it will be another fairly mild one, 12—17 degrees. and for sunday, well, it looks as if we're going to see another spell of heavy rain pushing in from the west, and it will be another very windy day. that's all from me. bye for now.

this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk, pbs in america and around the world. my name is mike embley. a tough message from a sombre president macron — france is to go into a second national lockdown if we do not apply a brutal break on the contamination today. our hospitals will quickly become saturated. tough new measures in germany too —— bars, restaurants, gyms and theatres will close from monday. with just six days to go before the us election more than 70 million have already cast their ballots — the us is on course for a record turnout.