several people have been killed and many wounded in the austrian capital vienna, during a terror attack in the city centre, according to the interior minister. police say several gunmen opened fire in six different locations. at least one gunman is still on the loose. in the last hours before election day in the us, president donald trump has dismissed his poor poll ratings as fake. his opponent, joe biden, says the country is tired of the president's tweets and what he called the failure of the trump presidency. the hollywood actorjohnny depp has lost his libel action at the high court in london against the sun newspaper, which had called him a "wife beater". the judge ruled that an article which made the allegation published two years ago was "substa ntially true". his lawyers say the actor will appeal.

now on bbc news, it's time for some hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. scientists have discovered water on the sunlit surface of the moon for the first time. does it matter? well, maybe it does. the moon is back in vogue in terms of space exploration. the us says it will put astronauts back on the lunar surface by 202a. it's supposed to be the precursor to a manned mission to mars. my guest is jacob bleacher, chief exploration scientist at nasa. in this time of pandemic and climate change here on earth, is space exploration a potential lifeline or a massive vanity project?

jacob bleacher in washington, dc, welcome to hardtalk. hey, thanks for having me. glad to be here. it's a real pleasure to have you. and i want to begin with that nasa announcement of little more than a week ago, where we learned that you guys have discovered a form of water on the sunlit part of the moon's surface. it seems extraordinary to me that we're still learning such basic things about the moon. so, just explain what this actually means. sure. absolutely. so, what we did was confirm that there is actual water in some of the sunlit areas of the moon. we've made some observations in the past that have identified hydrogen and oxygen, but it's difficult to determine from those observations if it's

the kind of water that you would drink or maybe some other mixture of hydrogen and oxygen, like hydroxyl or maybe something more like drain cleaner. so, those are two very different things with respect to how we would access them, use them, study them. so, this observation, which actually used a different wavelength, was able to confirm that these are, in fact, water molecules. so the type of water that you would drink. so that's a pretty exciting observation. well, i can sense your excitement, but just be a little clearer with me what this actually means to the layman, cos i'm interested. you've got a, i believe it's a picture of a moon crater right behind you in your office. if i were to go to a crater a little bit like that on the moon's surface, i'm guessing i wouldn't be finding puddles of water. so in what form is this so—called water? yeah. so, this is a really important part and actually something that we'll continue to study. one of the reasons that our artemis programme is sending

astronauts to the south pole of the moon is because we believe that there are vast deposits of water there, enough that we could use as a resource as well as study for science to understand the moon and the history of the solar system. however, where the water is located and how accessible it is is really important to understand as we develop our systems for how to use that water. we know that water exists in some cold traps. at the south pole of the moon, there are depressions, impact craters that never see sunlight. so in those locations, the solar wind does not strip the water away, but they're really dark and really cold and hard to get to. so, this observation is telling us that there is water present outside of those cold traps. now, as you asked, what form is the water in? how much of it is there? well, we think that the abundance of the water, at least from this observation,

is about equivalent to a i2oz bottle of water within a cubic metre of surface regolith or dirt on the moon. so that is not an abundance that's probably enough that we can use easily. but it does help us understand how to develop our systems. knowing that that water is present in a location where we don't have to go into the cold traps is very helpful to us. ok, that is all fascinating. and it interests me that you have put it in the context of the american artemis project, which, as i understand it, has been moved forward by the trump administration several years. so, the plan is by the end of 2024, you are going to have a new manned presence on the moon. you're claiming it will definitely be a woman as well as a man on the crew. and it seems to be the precursor to a much longer term commitment to having a pretty continuous human exploration on the surface of the moon, with the idea that it then teaches

you things that you take onto a mars mission. all hugely ambitious. are you telling me that having this form of water on the moon could revolutionise the ability of that long—term plan to be put into practice? yeah, so being in a position where we can survive on the surface of the moon for longer periods of time, begin to place infrastructure there. a critical aspect to that is can you use any of the resources there? just like here on earth, if you go for a trip, it's a lot easier if you can stop off at a gas station or a store to pick up some resources on your trip so you don't have to pack all of it. so, with respect to going to the moon, if there's any way that we can use some of the resources like water,

then we don't have to carry all that water off the surface. water's really heavy and it can be quite expensive to take. and it takes the place of other payloads, other science instruments, other technology that we may want to send to the moon to support that longer term presence that you referred to. so having that... let me stop you, dr bleacher, cos it seems to me that when one talks plans and ambitions, there's always a big gap between theory and exciting sort of notions that, you know, work in principle and actual reality. given that you've told me this water isn't actually in a form that we are used to and that you'd have to literally mine it to make it into water any astronaut could drink, this is not something that is going to sustain human beings in 2024, or even probably 201m. so, when one gets to the reality of a us plan for the moon, then mars, this seems to me pretty much irrelevant. well, you know, relevance comes in several different aspects to this too, right?

there's using it as a resource, which i'm talking about from a human exploration perspective. there's also using it as a science source. the water on the moon is relevant to us from a science perspective because we don't know exactly where all that water comes from. could be implanted by the solar wind. it could be the result of many, many impacts from micrometeorites through comets throughout the history of the moon. and so that water could tell us information, reveal secrets about the evolution of the moon, the earth itself and the solar system in general. so there's a science value that's really important not to get lost in this. just a final thought on this artemis project. do you want human beings to live on the moon in established communities beginning, you know, as early as the mid—2020s and moving forward? is that your plan in the united states? so, our goal is to initially take the first steps, which is being on the surface of the moon, successfully landing, beginning to learn how

to operate in the south polar region so that we can access some of those resources that we may use in the future. that will lay the groundwork for being able to develop collaborative ambitions with commercial vendors, commercial partners, international partners. this is not solely a nasa endeavour. this is something where we hope to lay the groundwork over the next handful of years as a stepping stone to increasing capabilities, increasing our science activities, increasing our time on the surface into a more sustainable presence. that's going to depend on partnerships. so the true vision in the long run really depends on what our partners bring to the table as well, and will evolve according to what we find and discover on the surface of the moon, as we're preparing to learn how to survive in deep space. because going to mars as a goal down the road, that's a long trip. and so we really have to learn

how to survive in deep space. and the moon and the orbit of the moon, orbits around the moon are a great place to learn that when you can still get back to the earth fairly quickly. in the sort of vision you have, artemis, nasa is expecting the us government to stump up well over $20 billion by 2024 to get you guys back onto the moon. all the indications are congress is going to have a big problem with that. i think you're looking for more than three billion for the initial investment in some of the spacecraft. and you're struggling to get that. covid makes public finances even more complicated. isn't the truth that, unlike in the late 1960s, there clearly is not the political commitment to deliver on the timeframe and the scale of ambition that you want? well, the nice thing is for nasa is that we have strong bipartisan support. and so everything that you mentioned is a reality we have to deal with.

but we've been given our goal to land in 2024. and right now we're putting in place the contracts for the hardware that we'll need to do that. we have several elements that are a big player in this. we have the rocket, the space launch system that will be able to get our payloads, our astronauts into orbit. we have the orion spacecraft or capsule that's going to be the crew ferry that our astronauts will survive in. we have the human landing system, for which we have three teams under contract right now to develop those systems. and we're developing the gateway, which will be an orbiting platform around the moon that serves as sort of a command post in orbit from where we can make decisions on when to go to the surface of the moon. so, all of those elements are coming along. well, big ambitions. what do you say to very knowledgeable astronauts,

former astronauts like michael foale, who look at the plan you've got and say 2024 is, quote, "highly unlikely to be achieved?" again, we're on the path to do it. all we can do is build the systems that we need, present the plans that we have in mind, and look for the partnerships that we need in order to meet those goals. yeah, you keep... and we're on a pathway to get there. you keep talking about the partnerships, and we'll get to some of the billionaires who want to be partners in this project in a moment, but let's just stick with the us government, which is still the most important financier of nasa's project. what did you think when, having got the declaration from mike pence that this is going to be moved forward, ramped up, you're going to do it by 2024, you then, in the summer, you had a tweet from president trump saying that nasa shouldn't actually be focusing on the moon at all, it should be fully focused on mars and that's where the money should be spent? it seems like you've got a political leadership, or you've lived with one for the last few years, which flip—flops pretty dramatically on what it wants from you.

ultimately, our plan has not changed and evolved. we are using the moon as a stepping stone to develop the systems that will, one, help us explore the moon, but also give us the foundational knowledge we need in order to take that step to mars. so, for us, the moon is part of the plan for exploring the moon and mars together. it's not something that we're doing in isolation, but it's what we need to collect that data. here's another quote that i wonder if you worried about when you heard it. i'm sure you knowjohn holdren was a senior science adviser to president 0bama, very knowledgeable about the space industry. he said of the long—term mars ambition, "i don't think that whoever has opted for this goal "has any idea about its real cost or practicality. sending humans to mars would be such a complex, expensive proposition, i don't believe it will be done at all unless major nations agree to do it together in a way that right now seems unlikely." again, we view the vision as a moon and mars application.

we need to go to the moon to learn in prep for going to mars. when you try to bite offjust the very end goal without that vision along the way, it certainly does seem difficult to do. and it's not easy. the goals that are given to nasa and to any nation's space agencies, they're hard. this is a hard business. but we're up to that challenge. and so we develop strategies that help us test the hardware, develop the technologies, and conduct the science along the way that gives us the data to know how to do it. so learning together is going to be important. and as you mentioned in that quote, you know, we need partnerships, and those partnerships are things that we're working on now. so the artemis programme is laying the basis, or the base, not only for the technology and the plan itself, but starting to outline how those partnerships will work. dr bleacher... all of this is important to get to mars. dr bleacher, i've got to be honest with you.

when you say we need partnerships, i'm very mindful that not very long ago president donald trump said, "space is the world's newest warfighting domain." that was as he announced his new space force located in the pentagon, the defense department. donald trump's perspective on space and what it offers to the united states and the opportunities and threats that come with it doesn't seem to match in any way your notion of a real focus on international cooperation. our goal is to explore the moon as a stepping stone to explore mars. again, we work with partnerships in place. you mentioned space force, but we also have an air force. but that doesn't mean that we don't, on a routine basis, hourly basis, work together with other nations and partners to conduct air travel across the planet. but when you look, for example, at the chinese space programme, the ambitions that we see coming out of india, of course the russians with their own priorities and their own sort of military concerns when it comes to america and domination

in space, does any of this suggest to you that the kind of international cooperation you want to see is actually going to happen? well, you know, we are working that right now. we have put in place something called the artemis accords, and we have a number of nations who have already signed on with us. and those are going to put in place some basic principles about how we work together moving forward. and so, as we do that, we're learning how to partner for exploration in space. so, you know, all these countries that you just mentioned have plans and ambitions, and sometimes will partner and in some cases maybe we won't partner. but that doesn't mean that we can't find ways to operate in a peaceful manner to explore these new destinations... as a point of interest,

if you envisage over the next decades, for example, mines, mining for water on the moon, which could then provision longer—term trips to mars — it's a fascinating vision — but who would actually own those mines? what kind of property rights actually pertain on the surface of the moon? and how would america convince china, russia or other powerful nations that any infrastructure it puts on the lunar surface would be for a greater common good, and not actually something that the us is seeking to exploit for its own end? yeah, these are great points. and just to bring back around to the very beginning of our discussion, the first part of that is trying to understand what these resources are. that first step needs to happen and is happening right now with the science observations we're making. we have to learn a lot about those resources at the moon before they even become something that we can realistically use.

and you pointed that out to me. so we have to develop that technology. then we put in place these agreements, the artemis accords, as a way to start exploring exactly what you just asked. how do we use those resources? we've stated that those resources should be available for space exploration, but those are all things that we're going to have to work out as we move forward. so beginning to work together now before we even know exactly what the resources are and how the resources are replenished and how we can use those resources is really critical so that we're not trying to catch up once the resources are something that we're actually starting to use. and just a point for the record for our viewers around the world, as i understand it, neither china nor russia right now has signed up to those artemis accords that you're talking about. we had a first round of working out signatories on the artemis accords, and you're correct, neither russia or china signed those.

but again, we believe that those are principles, they reflect principles that we would hope that all space—faring nations would follow. and we are going to continue to work towards bringing on partners for the artemis accords moving forward. let's shift our focus a little bit away from the nation states and potential rivalries and whether space is seen as a completely benign environment for cooperation or indeed whether it's sometimes seen for more militaristic and national interest purposes. let's move from that to the private sector. nasa appears intent, the us government appears intent, on tapping into the vast resources of billionaires like elon musk and jeff bezos working with their companies on the space project. but isn't the truth that musk and bezos have their own agendas, they have their own interests, and they don't necessarily align squarely with yours and nasa? well, i would imagine that any business has its own goals and they maybe don't always align with what other entities might be doing. but what we're trying to do is develop a plan where we can really tap into the innovation

and creativity of our commercial partners, both in the united states and then through international partnerships worldwide. we want to make sure that we don't leave any stone left unturned, as we think about how to approach this. and you've mentioned multiple times that going to mars is hard, and we really need creativity. and the best way to do that is to develop kind of the baseline infrastructure we'll need to do it, which is what nasa is doing right now, and then bring those partnerships in, depend on that creativity from our commercial vendors, to be able to show us other solutions that may work. but i guess one of the points is, people like musk and bezos clearly are preoccupied, they're obsessed somewhat with space travel and exploration. the us public doesn't seem to be minded to be as interested. i think one of america's great historians said thatjohn f kennedy, he walked the walk, not just talked the talk, when it came to committing to space exploration.

and you don't have a john f kennedy right now and you don't appear to have a public that is ready to commit to the resourcing that would be necessary for your vision. whatever bezos and musk bring to the table, isn't that a fundamental problem? i would disagree. i feel that we have strong support. we've had bipartisan support from our congress and, you know, every time i go and engage in the public, there are many people that are there and excited about this, constantly doing interviews and talking about how exciting this is. but really what we're talking about here is these commercial partnerships. we've had the international space station with crew on it for exactly 20 years today, 20 years of operation continuously with partnerships, multinational partnerships, thousands of science experiments. we're now opening that up to more commercial participation as our vision focuses on the moon. so what we're doing is kind of seeing this expanding

commercial and partnership presence into low earth orbit as we take the first steps to the moon and then bring that partnership along with us. this is a long process. we're talking about landing crews in 2024. but that's not the end. that's the very beginning of a long process. and as you've mentioned, you know, getting to mars is going to take a while, and we need to depend on those partners and the excitement that we have from those partners themselves, but the public as well will come along with that. let me end, if i may, dr bleacher, with a more sort of philosophical point. the billionaire space guys like bezos and musk, they paint this dramatic picture of a future in which the human species sort of leaves planet earth and reproduces in space, whether it be in floating space colonies or on the surface of whether it be planets in our system, like, potentially, mars orfar, far away. you know, we humans ultimately leave our own planet earth and establish new communities

out there in space. i talked about that with an astronaut, kathy sullivan, not long ago, and she said that, actually, she felt learning how to live more wisely on this planet in a more sustainable way and with a lighterfootprint should be the human species‘s priority. she said it was immoral and unethical to posit the notion that we're going to leave this planet, just abandon it, having spoilt it. where do you sit on that discussion? yeah, that's a very interesting discussion to have, and, you know, what's interesting about this, you hear the phrase "the sky is the limit". in this case, the sky is not the limit. we don't know what the limit is, and the visions we talked about, these innovative and creative visions, those are all envisioning an end state or a long—term goal, but what's really beneficial here is that these difficult problems that we have to tackle to meet these goals, they drive technology

that is infused into everyone's everyday life. and so i would pose the point that, you know, in reality, understanding how to better use our own earth, how to more safely and cleanly use our earth depends on us using these technological advances. so, as we mentioned, how difficult it would be to use the water on the moon. well, a big part of that is being able to recycle your water on the moon. those types of technologies are things that benefit people here every day, and those are the types of technologies that would help us get to a state where we take better care of our planet here on earth, even as we advance farther out into the solar system. it is a fascinating discussion to have. and i thank you so much forjoining me, dr bleacher. thanks for being on hardtalk. my pleasure. thanks for having me.

hello. the much advertised change to drier, calmer weather is still coming this week, though for the day ahead, it's blustery out there. sunshine, yes, but showers, some heavy. but in the wind, we'll move through quite quickly. high pressure will finally build in from wednesday for a few days, but as that happens, an increasing chance of getting some frost and some fog as well, but that may well be a better deal than the recent flooding some of us have been dealing with. it's a chillier start in the morning, particularly in england and wales, and a few areas of wet weather to contend with, one running eastwards across southern england, parts of the midlands, into east anglia. some heavier bursts here.

a bit of rain and hill snow into parts of scotland gradually using as both areas of wet weather ease, clear away, we're left in the afternoon with sunshine and showers. the greater chance of catching a shower will be in the west, where some will be heavy, possibly thundery in western scotland. it's still windy out there. not as windy as it's been. these are average wind speeds. still some gusts around 30 miles an hour, more than that to the english channel and the far north of scotland as we go into the evening. and for many of us, temperatures hanging on into single figures as we go on through the afternoon despite any sunshine around. still a few showers overnight and into wednesday morning, parts of scotland running down into northern england. many places, though, will be dry and clear, and as the winds turn lighter further south across england, into parts of wales, frost on the cards for some — and for some of us, the first, of course, of the season. so, a chilly start on wednesday but a bright start, plenty of sunshine around. although most will stay dry, a bit more cloud running into northern ireland, especially scotland, and some rain pushing into the far north of scotland on through the afternoon and into the evening. now, again, a frost and chance

of a fog in parts of england and wales as thursday begins that could be slow to clear. some areas of cloud around parts of scotland and northern ireland, but you can see the extent of the dry weather on thursday. now, fog could be rather more widespread as we start the day on friday. and going into the weekend, high pressure's moving away, low pressure starts to edge in from the south. a chance of rain increases again, though temperatures head up with a milder southerly wind. and although there is a chance of rain over the weekend, it doesn't look anywhere near as wet or as windy as it's been recently.

welcome to bbc news — i'm mike embley. our top stories: manhunt in vienna — at least one armed suspect at large after terror attack in the city centre. several people are known to have been killed and others injured during assaults in six different locations. 0n the eve of the us presidential election, joe biden and donald trump make a final push for votes. and an extraordinary story of survival — the three—year—old girl pulled from the rubble days after the earthquake in turkey. several people have been killed in an attack in central vienna