that's it for me luis this is bbc news with will be here later. here on bbc the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. news it's time for hardtalk. speaking to a former trump i'm lewis vaughan jones. barack 0bama has accused senior us republicans of undermining democracy after president trump refused to concede the election. campaignerjack kingston. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. donald trump cannot it is one more step in and will not bring himself to concede that he lost delegitimising not just it is one more step in delegitimising notjust the incoming biden administration the presidential election. but democracy generally. china condemns the mass amid the presidential election. the talk of legals resignation of opposition challenges amid the talk of legals challenges and a slew of states politicians in hong kong. the party is under strain. most seniorfigures sticking britain says new rules disqualifying lawmakers violate the treaty between the the party is under strain. most senior figures sticking with the president. some very publicly backing away. my guess two countries. is former congressman and loyal the world health 0rganisation warns of an explosion of covid cases trump backerjack kingston. what longer—term lesson should in europe, with a daily record his party be taking from the imminent loss of the white house?

jack kingston and washington, dc. welcome to hardtalk. president troy trump had a choice to make he? he could either accept the verdict of the american people or he could deify the democratic outcome. do you think he's made a wise choice? i think he has. i think, in accordance to our constitution, he has the right to make sure that the election was done in a fair and legal way. and that's what we need to do — just make sure that the votes that were counted were legally cast.

same thing al gore did in 2000, where the state of florida came down to about a 500—vote difference. it took, i think, 36 days to sort out those votes. and that's all the president is asking for, and that's what he is entitled to, according to our constitution. right. so you think president trump is being wise? and that, i suppose, would include the words he has used since the voting stopped. he's used words like cheating, fraud, stolen election. "we believe these people" — he's referring to the vote counters in some big cities — "are thieves," their machines are corrupt, "a stolen election." all of that you think becomes the president of the united states? well, i think there's two questions here. one is the legal side. so, let's put that aside, that he'll be entitled to his due process. and that has nothing to do, hopefully, with popularity or style. it's all about substance. so that's the paramount thing right now, is going through the legal process. the second part, as you point out, is the rhetorical battle, the battle for maybe the hearts

and the minds, and the tone. and i think, in terms of what the president is saying, it would be best said through surrogates and not through the president himself, that he should just reassure people that, "listen, we're going to count these votes. do not despair. "it's not over until we've had the due process." but as you know, stephen, the president has never necessarily followed the advisers in that direction. he's not a conventional politician. and in one respect, that's why he's very popular. in the same respect, that's why he's unpopular. but mr kingston, the problem with what you're saying is that when trump lays out his case for the notion that he really won and this election has been stolen from him, it is all about rhetoric because there is no evidence there. he has had days now, him and his legal team and his surrogates, to point

to the very specific evidence to back up the claims of fraud, vote—rigging and corruption. but there is no evidence. stephen, there's a lot of evidence. in philadelphia, our monitors were not allowed to watch the counters. that's a total violation of the law. no, not true. not true. youi’ observers were allowed to watch. they didn't like the space between them and the counting officials. they went to court, they were allowed to get closer, but there was not a time when there were no observers allowed in. stephen, you could say they were in the room, but they weren't close enough to monitor. it's about monitoring. it's not space in the room. it's being able to actually watch the people. if i'm a teacher in the classroom and you've got 400 kids in there, i can't see who's cheating and who isn't if there's just one of me and i'm a long way away. that's why you have the law set up so that the monitors can actually watch the voters themselves. physically, they weren't allowed to do that. that is illegal. that's why the court reversed the decision. but what we're concerned about is, it was unfair. now, in the state of georgia, in the state of michigan,

we have a particular brand of voting machine that had glitches. we know they had glitches. that's not being disputed. the question is how many votes were disputed? and then there are other things that... i have a friend of a friend — but this this is reliable, it's not the only case... ah. she went to vote and was told she had already voted, and the county that she had already voted in was a county in which she did not reside. now... now, you know what? there's all this anecdotal stuff, not least from president trump himself, who says, and i'm quoting him, "we have heard so many horror stories. " frankly, horror stories are one thing, a legal case is another. i put it to you again — you have had days and days — and i'm going to call you part of the trump team — to put forward a specific, forensic legal case. you have failed to do so. and every time that you have gone before a court in the five most hotly contested states, as far as i can see, judges have failed

to uphold your case. it's interesting that you feel like we need to rush to judgment. the electors don't actually get together until december 15th, and the reason is that our founding fathers knew there would be disputes, they knew there would be legal contests, and so it allows enough time. you actually have until december 8th to settle the court thing, so it's curious to me that, on the left, those who were so quick to charge the president with, you know, russian hoax or to say that the whistle—blower was innocent, they always want to rush to judgment when the outcome could favour them best. i think it's really best to sit back... you and i don't want to fall into this rhetorical issue that you're accusing the president of doing. and i think you have a point on that. i think you have to sit back and say, you know, the system is set up so that... is my friend of a friend lying? let's check it out. i think she's got a solid case that she went to vote

in one county and was told she had already voted. now, if that's one vote and we need 1,000 to flip the state of georgia, then that's not going to be sufficient. but wouldn't it be good to know that all those cases had time to be reviewed to make sure that they're not widespread enough to tip the scales in the election? and by the way, there's a subplot to this, and that is in my state of georgia, where atlanta is, we still have the balance of the senate power in play. and that's why it's so important in the state of georgia to know if there was fraud or not... absolutely. and you know better than i do what donald trump did on georgia after he saw that the votes were turning against him. he tweeted out, "the election apparatus in georgia "is run by democrats." that's a flat—out lie. that's not true. the secretary of state in georgia is a gentleman called brad raffensperger, who is a loyal republican. so on every single specific... if you dig into what donald trump is saying, it simply doesn't hold water. and the other thing, if you're going to talk

numbers about all of this, is that, look at the margins right now in the states that matter. pennsylvania, biden has a a5,000—plus margin. arizona, 17,000. nevada, 15,000. georgia, 10,000. you talked to me about the election in 2000. i remember very well that when the florida original count was made, the margin was only 1,500 votes. there is no way that the kind of irregularities you are talking about, which are hotly disputed, no way they're going to reverse the margins that i'vejust mentioned. stephen, so we abide by our own constitution because our constitution allows for this process to go on. and while you might not like that process, and i don't know that you're saying that, but the truth of the matter is the process protects all of us. if there are people who voted illegally, i want to know about it. and i want to know about it even if... but mr kingston, at what point does it become an abuse of process to continue

with this when it is quite plain — and president george w bush said itjust the other day — quite plain thatjoe biden has authentically won this election? well, i'm glad that, from his ranch in crawford, texas, the president knows what's going on in seven different states. i can say this. i want to correct you on one thing. the secretaries of state do run the election numbers, but the actual elections are run county by county, and in dekalb county, fulton county, those are run by democrats. mm. now, i'm a believer in a bipartisan election board, which is what we try to have in chatham county, my home county, but it is the local governments who actually run the elections. so, it is important that it's balanced. but let me get to something that i do feel is important also. having been on a ballot for 30 different elections... excuse me, 15 different elections for 30 years total. ..if somebody illegally voted,

i want to know about it for the next election. i want to stop that from happening. it's going to favour democrats, it's going to favour republicans, but most importantly, it's going to favour the system. and the system, the integrity of it has to be upheld. but you know what? it doesn't favour the system, as donald trump has done, to call those running the election process in big cities like atlanta and detroit, and elsewhere, thieves. that's the word he used — thieves. how corrosive do you fear all of this is going to be to public faith in the democratic system? well, you know, it's interesting that the right, of which i'm a proud member, we don't riot. we don't go to the streets and we don't have demonstrations. could you imagine... forgive me. forgive me, mr kingston... i'm sorry to interrupt you, but you know that's not true. there are people demonstrating outside vote—count centres in states like arizona, nevada, michigan right now — donald trump supporters — heavily armed, legally, publicly carrying their guns.

so don't tell me that the people on the right don't demonstrate, because they clearly do. listen, if you want to take that discussion, you're going to lose — portland, seattle, chicago, new york, washington, dc — all the rioting, all the what you media people call mostly peaceful demonstrations, those were left wingers. those were the joe biden supporters. with respect, we're not, we're not talking about that that urban unrest. we're talking about what's happening outside vote—count centres since november 3rd. the reason why i point that out is that i'm going to agree with you that donald trump's rhetoric can excite people. but i would also say it's a good thing he's not on the left, because if it was the left right now who were in the situation that the trump people are in, they would be rioting and burning down cities. and we all know that to be a fact. so, you know, but let me say this, as somebody who's been a lawmaker, i believe in the process and donald trump has the right to let the process go,

just as al gore had it, for 36 days. and by the way, we did not know it was going to come down to 500 votes on that, but he was entitled to it and it was important. and the only reason why gore gave up was because the supreme court told him, "it's over." and when the court system says to trump, "it's over," he's got, he has no choice but to accept. you can push the process, i guess, for some time to come in terms of legal proceedings. the question really is when it becomes damaging to the republican party, humiliating for mr trump and those who continue to back him. rick santorum, a very loyal trump supporter for a very long time, clearly believes donald trump is now pushing things too far. he has said of trump's statements, "they haven't been factual, at times incendiary, "not something the president of the us should say." his backers, even people like rick santorum, are now treading carefully away. are you going to do that soon? rick santorum has never been on the trump team.

he is a republican. he is not a trump guy. he's never been a trump guy. i do want to correct you on that. now, that doesn't mean he's a bad guy. i like rick santorum, but he's never been with us, i can tell you that. chris christie, another one. well, you know, you can argue about how loyal they've been in the past. chris christie, another loyal trump backer for a long time, a guy who calls donald trump his friend. he now saying to the president, "mr president, you can't carry on like this." yes, but on the other hand, we heard from mitt romney, who did not vote for trump, who said over the weekend, he said yesterday on a talk show, he said, "watch your rhetoric, be careful what you say, "but go through the due process." and i think that mitt romney would be one of the first to criticise donald trump and say, "give it up," but he did not. ted cruz, who, of course, has been a trump supporter, he was very guarded, too, though. he did not say, "you're going to win," but he said, "you do have the right for the process."

when you heard the authoritative media report, citing at least two sources, saying that jared kushner had begun the process of trying to indicate to the president that he should now concede that it is over. he cannot, given the numbers i outlined earlier, he cannot reverse this decision of the american people. did it give you pause? ifjared kushner thinks it's over, maybe you should think that, too. well, here's what i... and i don't know exactly whatjared kushner said, but i want you to understand very clearly in terms of i believe we need to go through the process. i think it's good for the process because it cleans it up, if nothing else, for the next election. but i think at that point, once you go through the process, the numbers aren't with you, then you peacefully bow out. and not only do you peacefully bow out, but you do everything you can for a smooth transition. so if you're in the department for education or whatever, give them your files, show them the balls that

you have up in the air and give them some help in terms of which ones they may want to kill, or they may want to keep. jack kingston, it's very interesting you say that cos you'll have seen the report that i've seen that the administrator of the general services administration, emily murphy, is right now refusing to give to the biden transition team the paperwork necessary to get basic funding, office space, access to officials to begin the process of a transition. this at a time when leaders across the world have recognised joe biden as the president—elect. when, as i'vejust said, the former president george w bush has acknowledged it. people across the united states are waking up to the fact this isn't going to be reversed. at some point very soon, if the trump team don't get ready to make this transition happen, it won't happen. there'll be plenty of time, just as there was for george bush when the clinton administration stayed in the office until mid—december.

george bush wasn't allowed to start moving in. you know, the media doesn't declare the winner. it is going to be the court system. it's the official process. i don't think there's going to be any great disaster ifjoe biden has to wait a few weeks, just like george bush had to wait a few weeks. what do you think the lesson of this presidential election is for the republican party? cos you can read it two ways. you can say donald trump got over 70 million votes, the second—highest tally of a presidential candidate in us history. you can also say he got soundly beaten on the popular vote by four million votes. joe biden got the highest vote ever for a presidential candidate. and, ultimately, trump's a loser, a one—term president, which is a pretty rare thing in the united states. well, here's what we do know. we're probably going to hold on to the senate. we picked up anywhere from eight to 12 new house members. in the state legislative bodies around the country, republicans did very well. so there's certainly

not a mandate. there certainly wasn't a cross—the—boa rd rejection of everything donald trump and everything republican. so i think that...and then you think about his children, i think donjr, eric, ivanka, they are now political national figures, who can have huge influence on future elections, so... are you serious, mr kingston? donjr, during the last few days, has tweeted out messages saying, "it is time for total war," in terms of disputing the election result. you're telling me that he and other members of the trump family are serious, credible political operators in the republican party going forward? absolutely. they're a name. i know you guys maybe in the press don't like them as much as you like some others. so that trump philosophy of total war, that sort of divisive, polarising, populist politics, that's what the republican party of the future is going to be? when our people start rioting

the way the left did in portland and seattle and chicago or new york, then i'd say, "ok, back off." they're not. when they say stuff like that, to me, it is rhetoric and our base can decide between rhetoric and a real call to war. and frankly, if he was making a real call to war, i would be with you, stephen. i would say, "hell no, you're out of your mind." because it's just something that, you know, right now with politics, emotions are high. but i really am curious, though, why would the... if we're so, if the left is so confident thatjoe biden has won, why not go ahead and play it out? why not do what we allowed al gore to do? and i say we — the system, not george bush. it's the system that allows it. what's the harm that's done? because i do know that he can start having discussions and cabinet choices and there's a lot he can get done, even if the gsa doesn't let

them inside the buildings. that's not a big deal. well, there's no point rehashing it all for the next five minutes, mr kingston. but as i've already explained, the truth is you're not presenting evidence that any judge across the country is taking seriously right now. so there's nothing, there's nothing to pass. it's not there for you. your case doesn't exist. are you saying not a single judge is? because in my home county friday afternoon, judge bass was looking at the case. now, he did not rule in our favour. yeah, absolutely. that's what i'm telling you. but the point is, we need to look at the bigger picture here, because you could argue, and i want to hear your view on this, that if donald trump, with his martyr‘s mentality and his populist message and the notion that he's been robbed of the white house, if he's going to be the shadow that hangs over the republican party for the next, let's say, two years, four years, who knows? he might even want to run again for the white house himself. do you think that's good for your party? i can say this. donald trump did not lose the legislative and the congressional seats that barack 0bama did.

and i'd say hillary clinton, by hanging on there, has caused far more damage to the democrats. but, you know, there's always that thing. you know, what's the next generation going to look like? who's the next leader? and that's just part of the growth and evolution process of any party. but i want to underscore something really quickly. it is absolutely wrong to sayjudges aren't considering these cases. they may rule against the trump people, but to say they're not considering... yeah, i didn't say that. i said nojudge right now is upholding your case because none of them see, none of them see convincing evidence. you can present cases all you like. the question is, are you winning them? and you're not. we may know something by this week, we may know something by next week. i would say this, stephen — within ten days, if we haven't won a single case and everybody who voted was legal, every vote that was cast was legal and done in accordance with the law then, yes, but right now we're six days out. and that's why you have this system. i wonder, if i may,

mr kingston, i want to drag you kicking and screaming back to the bigger picture. and you have said such warm things about donald trump and his relationship with the republican party, you're making me think that you actually want to see him not just hang around, but you seem to see him as the most credible republican candidate looking ahead to 202k. am i right? i think right now he should keep 2024 as an option. but, you know, as you know, he was selected out of 16 different candidates, just asjoe biden was elected by about 20 different candidates. and that's the part of our kind of wonderful open—door system that you do have primaries and you do get to sort things out. so... but, you know, i want to point out, carolyn maloney is a congresswoman from new york. her election stayed open for something like 60 days after the primary before they could figure out who the winner is, because these court contests and these recounts, they do matter. but nobody knew who won that race. and this is new york city for an incumbent congresswoman,

who's been in office for 20 years. so this, this is not unknown, unchartered waters. we, our constitution, is set up for this kind of contest after the election and we'll go through it. i'm just mindful that, yes, trump got 70 million votes, but i'm also mindful that his opponent, in an anti—trump protest vote to some extent, got the highest number of votes of any candidate ever in us history. and you really want donald trump? you believe donald trump is going to be good for your party going forward, given all the polarisation, the divisiveness in us politics, you want the trump message and mantra to continue to dominate your party? let me answer two ways. number one, the next presidential candidate will get the most votes in history. i mean, that's just the way the progress of population growth is. it's a reflection of that. number two, i think the donald trump policies of strong national defence, putting america first in trade deals, saying

to our nato allies, "you've got to pay yourfairshare," and saying on the border, "hey, we need to know who's coming in our country, "how long they're going to be here, "what they're going to do while they're here." i think those policies are great for the republican party. do you? mr kingston, do you think america was a healthy body politic when donald trump was in the white house? with the lowest unemployment levels ever? yes, i think in terms of growth and wages, yes. i think in securing our borders, yes. but i think that the donald trump doctrine of peace — we kept north korea at bay — did not get involved in syria, moving the embassy from tel aviv to jerusalem. those things are good. 0ur energy independence. but i think all those things... in short, what you're saying is donald trump may be taken out of the white house eventually, he may have to leave the white house eventually, but he is in no way leaving his domination

of the republican party? i think his philosophies, the policies that he implemented are good for america. and i think that they are going to be good for the republican party. and i would say this — george bush looked really good two years into the 0bama administration. and ifjoe biden becomes the president, we'll see how donald trump looks. i've got to stop you, but i thank you so much forjoining me on hardtalk. thanks a lot. thank you. hello there. should see quite a lot of

sunshine once we delete not loser rain spreading eastward during the overnight period. loser rain spreading eastward during the overnight periodm has been followed by blustery showers which would be running into scotland and northern ireland. this is the rain i am talking about. slightly fresher air behind it. working its way eastward ahead of it they will be cloudy, breezy and fairly mild. lots of shadows across the northwest from the word go. sunshine behind his rain band which will continue to journey eastward through this morning eventually clearing the southeast by around lunchtime. a bright afternoon for most pa rt a bright afternoon for most part showers will continue in the northwest was up some heavy perhaps even thundery. blustery day to come for all very windy for the northwest of scotland. 50 mph. for the temperature is it's actually going to feel on the cooler side. nine to 11 degrees 12 to 1a degrees further south. as we head through the overnight period will stay dry for a while but the next area of low pressure sta rts the next area of low pressure starts to sweep it off the atla ntic starts to sweep it off the atlantic bringing in craig three pack increasing cloudy

and rainy at times heavy across southern and western areas. signs of mild that you're just getting into the south by the end of the night but for most when we are in single digits. as we head on into the week it's going to certainly stay unsettled because we have low pressure nearby. with scales and heavy rain and places nearby. low pressure will be moving in right across the country moving in right across the cou ntry lots moving in right across the country lots of isoba rs moving in right across the country lots of isobars on the charts and plenty of weather fronts. eight largely cloudy day for most. 0utbreaks fronts. eight largely cloudy day for most. outbreaks of fairly heavy rain at times. not could be raining all the time should be dry interludes too. windy with gales around irish sea coast off windy with gales around irish seacoast off the south coast gust a0 to 50 mph. a mild day to come, 1a to 16 degrees in england and wales ten to 12 further north. stays cloudy, breezy further through saturday night and into sunday at low pressure still with us. squeeze in the isobars across southern britain lots of weather fronts indicating outbreaks of rain. could be southern will see more gail's costs 60 to miles per

hour could cause disruption and spells, showers longer spells of rain in some places heavy. will be some sunshine not going to bea will be some sunshine not going to be a complete wash—out was up to be a complete wash—out was up slightly cooler day on some dates that but neckties ten to 14 dates that but neckties ten to 1a degrees.

this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. i'm lewis vaughan jones. barack 0bama has accused senior us republicans of undermining democracy after president trump refused to concede the election. it is one more step in delegitimising not just it is one more step in delegitimising notjust the incoming biden administration but democracy generally. china condemns the mass resignation of opposition politicians in hong kong. britain says new rules disqualifying lawmakers violate the treaty between the two countries. the world health 0rganisation warns of an explosion of covid cases in europe, with a daily record 00:30:00,640 --> 4294966103:13:29,430 set in the uk.