that a second company has developed a successful coronavirus vaccine, but has warned against complacency. the head of the agency said he was concerned by a surge in cases in europe and the americas. the latest vaccine is made by the us firm moderna. the us president—elect, joe biden, has warned that donald trump's refusal to begin the transition following his election defeat earlier this month could cost lives. mr biden said more people might die from covid—19 unless the president worked with the incoming team to coordinate vaccination programmes. thousands of people have been evacuated from the coasts of honduras and nicaragua as hurricane iota bears down on the region damaged two weeks ago by another storm. forecasters say the hurricane threatens to destroy many homes, wreck power supplies and make the area affected uninhabitable for months.

that's it from me. now it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. the eu has long—threatened to punish the populist nationalist government in hungary for a failure to uphold core eu values. so far, those threats have been empty. but now there is a concerted effort to link post—covid financial aid to compliance with core principles on the rule of law. well, my guest is hungary's justice minister, judit varga. how far is hungary prepared to go in its defiance of brussels‘ institutions and eu norms?

judit varga, in budapest, welcome to hardtalk. good afternoon. thank you very much for the invitation. minister, where is the logic in hungary being a member of the eu club and yet refusing to accept the eu's core values and rules? when we joined the club, the club had the same motto as today, "united in diversity". so it means diversity of national identities is as much important as unity. hungary is a very strong pro—european country. we've proved it throughout the centuries. we always belong to here. but we see today that the treaty framework what we joined 16 years ago, is loomingly changing,

and there is an ever—growing attempt for a federalist union which we never signed up to. and we also see that there are competencies trying to belong to eu competencies, which are core sovereign principles. and i don't think we have to explain it to the united kingdom, what the problem with the ever—closer—union concept may be. but this isn't about any concept of an ever—closer union and creeping assaults on national sovereignty. this is about every member state of the eu signing up to some fundamental principles including democratic governance, rule of law, independent judiciary, recognition of a free media, respect for human rights. on all of these different counts, the eu itself, with its different institutions, is seeing in

hungary violation and failure to meet basic standards. is it a question or a statement? because the hungarian constitution is based on the same fundamental principles, and we tend to forget that those values which are listed in article 2 are starting with freedom, democracy. hungary has fought for these values. so it is not really a right declaration to say whether some countries would not abide by this. but when it comes to ideological and political blackmailing, we cannot use this word — rule of law — because there is no objective criteria to that. and by this, you are infringing upon principal values, which is a legal security. actually, you have to be aware of the scene what you have to commit in order to be sanctioned.

and that's why the treaties are providing a higher guarantee when it comes to the values. and this is article 7 procedure, which requires unanimity, which requires member state governments to look into each other‘s eyes and have a dialogue on those values, including rule of law. so i would actually ask whether you could define the rule of law and what does this mean? minister, it is interesting you say there should be a dialogue on this issue of rule of law. seems to me since the european parliament invoked, as you say, the article 7 procedures based on serious concern that hungary was in violation of these core values regarding governance and rule of law, since that happened two years ago, far from engaging in a cooperative dialogue, the hungarian government has simply issued defiant rhetoric and has actually taken measures which, according to the eu's top officials, make

the problem even worse. and then the answer is that let's circumvent the treaties because what we see now is the frustration that circumventing the treaty rule of unanimity, and also infringing upon the historic deal and agreement of thejuly european council meeting, where leaders made it crystal clear by shaking hands that there won't be any kind of ideological blackmailing linked to eu funding. now we are in a situation where this historic recovery plan should be launched as soon as possible. and there was a clear deal by the leaders to have a package. it means that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. and there is a treaty framework. when we have a problem with article 7 procedure or with the values, then it should be dealt with at the proper legal level, not circumventing. and what we experience now with this conditionality regulation, there was a compromise agreed on the 5th of november, is actually breaching these principles, not to mention

loyal cooperation between member states. so you cannot defend the rule of law by infringing the rule of law. when it comes to the european parliament, let me also add that it is a political body which had a resolution which itself infringed their own procedural rules, because abstentions were not ta ken into account. hungary challenged its decision. the court case is still pending. in a normal, ordinary rule of law, we should wait for the result. we should wait for thejudgement that is still to come, maybe early next year. so i see only that institutions are not actually abiding to the rule of law, which should also refer to them. yet you... all in all, this historic package should be launched as soon as possible, and the money should be given to those who are most in need. and moral responsibility lies with those who are actually pressuring ideological blackmailing in the name of this valuable and really precious principle of rule of law. minister, you're putting an awful lot of information out there, some of which,

for some people watching this around the world, will be a little complex to take in. but the november 5th decision that you refer to, and you keep calling it blackmail, is really quite a simple thing. the european parliament and the european council appear to have agreed that for the first time, the eu will link the disbursement of financial aid, and particularly we're talking about the emergency financial package post—covid i9, they're going to link it to member states‘ respect for the rule of law. and you have a fundamental problem because the eu institutions do not think you are respecting the rule of law. now, you're thejustice minister, what are you going to do about it? actually, there are also proposals in the european parliament raising this issue, but let me reiterate again, what we experience here is an infringement of the treaty framework, is a circumvention of article 7 procedure, which is the unanimity procedure, now they are

circumventing it with a qualified majority. they are breaking the deal of thejuly historic eu agreement. this is the real issue here, just in order to exert political and ideological pressure. and if you don't believe me, just read the statements, the enthusiastic statements of liberal mps, meps and also some commissioners, that they say "if you don't take our line", be it concerning ideologies of family policy, migration policy, "now we have a tool to force you to take that line". isn't it reminding us of certain regimes, which hungary experienced already in the past, it was the same logic, like the sargentini method. there is no problem with each and every piece of legislation. and whenever hungary had the problem, we had an infringement procedure. and at the end, we made harmony with our laws, with the european union law. this is the real procedure to, to come into line with european standards. but when you prove that

you are right or when you have no dispute any more legally with the european commission, then comes the nice sentence that you don't fit the ideological picture, and the overall picture is wrong. so it is, i'm sorry to say, but in communist times, we have the same rhythm and methodology, that if you don't fit this line, if you don't fit ideologically what the mainstream is, then you get punished. and i'm really surprised... hang on. ..how bluntly they actually now are really naming it. well, you can... look at the declarations of many meps and some commissioners. you can sit there in budapest, i guess, and compare the european parliament to some sort of communist institution. you can choose to say that hungary is right and that all the other member states of the european union are wrong. but that really is a very dangerous position. i'm not talking about the european parliament only. well, it's a very difficult and maybe dangerous position you're taking. i'm just going to quote you one senior eu official, the vice president of

the commission, vera jourova, who said very recently that your prime minister, your boss, mr orban, "is fond of saying he is "establishing an illiberal democracy. "the truth is, i would say, he's establishing "a very ill democracy." hungarian democracy to those seniorfigures in europe looks as though it is very sick right now, and it's sick because of the decisions that your government is taking. do you think the statement compatible with the role of a commissioner, who has to be colour—blind? she's making political statements, she's attacking and actually damaging the reputation of a country without any kind of legal evidence and even if she had any kind of evidence, this is not actually acceptable from a vice president of the commission, who is the guardian of the treaties. so i'm actually surprised why the question does not concern her behaviour. and not to mention that she

denied in the czech media whether she was in an informal and very frequent contact with the hungarian opposition members working in brussels, when they were elaborating the hungarian rule of law report. so it's a mere political coordination from one member of the european commission, who has to be neutral, who has to guarantee the rights of a fair trial. and i'm really surprised, why isn't she in the middle of this question? i can tell you that hungary is a rule of law state and there are only hungarians who mayjudge on that. so it's, we are talking about political statements, which is quite a shame from, from the, from the vice president of the commission. so this should be changed. you keep telling me about the rule of law. and i am mindful that you'rejustice minister. are you concerned that in two key rulings from

the european court ofjustice in the last few months, the hungarian government has been found to be in violation of european law? have you also checked the statistics? because it's not inventing the wheel, many countries, all of the countries have infringement procedures and sometimes they lose, sometimes they win in the court. and there's always, i would reiterate, unlike other countries of the european union, hungary has always implemented the courtjudgements, the court rulings, because based on the treaties, the court is there to decide when there is a legal incompatibility issue and we are going to implement this. it usually takes at least one year, sometimes more, but it is a fair, mostly fair, but it's a european dialogue with the european commission experts and hungarian experts. right. and they always settled all issues, even during the barroso commission. i'm really intrigued that you're absolutely determined to now follow the guidance of the european court and change your, presumably

change your legislation to ensure that you're no longer in violation. so let's just get down to the detail. the ruling in october from the ec] that found hungary broke eu law when its rules forced the central european university in budapest to shift its activities abroad. you're going to make sure that central european university comes back to budapest, are you? thejudgement concerns a hungarian act on upper education, and they were checking whether this amendment of the act was in line with the european union law. what's more, they actually were checking the compatibility with wto rules. apart from the fact that the judgement is very long, so it needs a very detailed analysis... ah. ..when it comes to the real interpretation of that and of course, we already started the dialogue, or we are about to start this dialogue with the european commission and we will bring it fully into line

with european standards again, our upper education act. now we are checking some other member states‘ know—how and legal regulations concerning the upper education, because we think that it is one part of national sovereignty, at least, to determine the structure of universities or upper education institutions... you can‘t... ...and we are now, for example, checking the... you can‘t tell me, then... it can be a lot of implementation. right. so you can‘t tell me at all how you‘re going to meet the requirements of the european court ofjustice on that one. so let‘s try another one. the european court ofjustice said hungary‘s law requiring ngos with foreign funding to register and disclose their donors was also a blatant violation of eu law. of course, it reflects the obsession of mr orban with george soros in particular and the way in which he funds pro—democracy organisations, including in hungary. but how are you going to meet that ruling of the european court?

what are you going to do to change the law in hungary on that? mr sackur, i‘m so happy that you asked about this case as well, because here the european court ofjustice itself points out, pointed out, in harmony with the hungarian explanation of the act, that just because of the funding and the magnitude and the volume of the funding, there can exist certain civil society organisations which may have the capability, the ability to influence public opinion. and this is an underlying legitimate reason for more transparency in this case. you don‘t seem to be recognising the point. no, no. no, i‘m sorry, i‘m recognising fully the points. sorry, i‘m the justice minister, i read thatjudgement and maybe i‘m more aware of the details than any otherforeign or expert journalist could be aware of. and somehow, the public opinion in western europe is trying to evade the fact that in part, and when it comes to

the objective, we are not in dispute, and we are not in disharmony because our objective was legitimised by the court. it is a matter and it is a dispute and a debate of the means. so we will find the means how we can serve this public interest, that we require full transparency in case of certain civil society organisations which may have the capability to influence public opinion. so this is a national security issue. this is a legitimate democratic and european value issue. transparency is, you know, the, the main principle of every commissioner. look at what‘s going on in the european parliament. they are requiring 150% transparency when it comes to ngo funding, for example, no? as you point out... why is it a problem when hungary is requiring the same thing? as you point out, you are thejustice minister, i‘m merely a journalist. but as a journalist, i am interested to know whether you care about press freedom in your country?

of course. press freedom is guaranteed by the constitution, so it is among the values, the framework for the media regulation was actually approved already by the barroso commission and the venice commission also approved it. so this is fully in line and in harmony, all the regulatory framework for press freedom in hungary. so what is the question? hang on, all right. so let‘s measure your commitment to it against reality. reporters without borders describes the level of state media control by the government and its allies in hungary as, quote, "unprecedented in an eu member state." freedom house, the independent watchdog, says that it can no longer consider hungary to be a democracy, given that the, quote, "metrics for rule "of law and press freedom have sunk so low." and just one specific case that might worry you if you care about press freedom. in april, a very big businessman close to mr orban

bought a 50% stake in the company that controls index. that is one of the last independent journalistic organisations in hungary. he gained control of the revenue streams and the advertising for index. and you know what? injuly, just a couple of months later, the editor in chief of index was fired. so much for your commitment to press freedom, minister. yes, you are actually now asking a member of the executive to intervene in a market situation, it‘s like when the... you would just ask your justice secretary to pick up the phone when, for example, the editor in chief of the guardian would be dismissed by the owner. so i don‘t really interpret the question. this is a media pluralism. everybody in europe is determined by market situation and market trends. you know better than i do, minister, this is nothing to do with media pluralism,

this is to do with media concentration, the so—called... why? ..central european press and media foundation conglomerate. hang on. hello? let mejust finish. it owns the vast majority of media outlets now... 0k, sorry. ..in hungary. this is a clear case of the government and its allies very efficiently and effectively moving to control the media industry in your country. and it doesn‘t appear to worry you at all. have you, have you actually listened to the statistical data as well? what is the popularity of certain media outlets? so this conglomerate is just following european standards. for the sake of business rationality, there are consortia and conglomerates. if you look at how big a share of the market has sanoma in finland, or the bertelsmann group in germany, you should actually ask the same question about the same pattern. i think what here matters when it comes to media pluralism, that there should

be, there should be guaranteed that the real pluralism in public opinion, in public disputes, and in the media landscape, should be provided by the legislative framework. and it is openly provided in hungary. so market players can, can do their own decisions based on business rationality, as everywhere in the world. i would just recommend you to listen to the public debate tomorrow, actually on the rule of law report, concerning some other countries. and you may end up with interesting information about other countries‘ media market. why is it always a fixation on hungarian media situation? open up the online media, it‘s 80% so critical towards the government. and mainly there is a big dominance here of liberal outlets, especially in the online sector. and we all know that people are watching internet day and night. so ijust don‘t get the question and the suspicion about anything. i‘m sorry you don‘t get my questions, but let‘s try and make things simple.

itjust seems to me you‘ve got a problem right now, because like so many countries in europe, hungary is suffering with the covid—i9 pandemic. you‘re currently undergoing special restrictions, including night—time curfews. your economy is suffering. and there is a game—changing difference now in the european union. they are going to tie, it seems, financial assistance post—covid to all of these issues i‘ve discussed with you. now, you say that hungary doesn‘t have a single problem and that europe‘s got it wrong. your problem is, brussels doesn‘t see it that way, and your economy is very dependent on money coming from the eu. 45% of your gdp pre—covid was coming from the european union. you can‘t afford to fall out with the eu in a way that affects your financial future. so i come back to this basic question. are you in the end going to drop the defiance and compromise with brussels? actually, mr sackur, if i wouldn‘t respect you for your long experience

as a well—known journalist, which i truly admire, i would more harshly refuse this kind of statement already formulated in your question like a blackmail. look, the hungarian people and the, and hungary, had a very, a very big performance and successful economic performance throughout the last ten years. and of course we shouldn‘t, no—one should make any kind of politics about this very unfortunate situation, what covid crisis cost to us. but i don‘t think it is hungary who is in the main economic trouble. and that‘s what we always said injuly, even though we had philosophical concerns about taking up such a huge loan and push into indebtedness the next generations for 30 years, because we‘ve learned also during communism that it‘s not a good recipe. but we gave up this philosophical concern. we set it aside. we signed up to this historic solidarity agreement and all those who, despite the fact that

hungary never actually hid any kind of surprise, we said that we will never give in to this ideological blackmailing, which is actually under the pretext of the concept of rule of law, is realising in this concept. those who actually made the situation come true today in these ways, and europe is in a deadlock now, those should solve this problem. our message is that we should give the money for those member states who are much more in need of that money. so it is morally an irresponsible behaviour when those are not concentrating on the covid and the, and the crisis, and the economic crisis. but they are actually pressuring and blackmailing with ideological debates, certain countries, which they all knew that we would never accept. so this is — we should name the game, i think, sadly, we are out of time.

so, judit varga, i must thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk from budapest. oh, i was enjoying. thank you very much. thank you. hello. we‘re all going to be sitting under a fairly hefty whack of cloud in the next few days. that cloud is being pulled in from the atlantic and it comes along with some very mild air. if it does thin and break in a few spots, which it may do with a little bit of help from the hills, we could see our temperatures and eastern regions shooting up today. but as we continue to pull in the south—westerly air

into western scotland, there‘s going to be a lot of moisture around. here, some fairly relentless rain and across the hills, the totals keep adding up. i think we‘ll see perhaps some rain setting in from western wales and parts of northern ireland with the higher ground, especially through the day as well. a lot of cloud around, as i said, but some sheltered eastern spots will see the sun coming out and the temperatures could shoot up to 16, even 17 degrees, but widely, we‘re in the mid—teens on tuesday despite the grey skies. through tuesday evening over into wednesday, still lots of cloud around, still that rain across western scotland. it will be a mild start to wednesday in many areas, temperatures down no lower than the low teens. what will actually happen through wednesday is during the daytime, our temperatures will come down, some as this weather front advances from the west. yes, it will bring rain, it‘ll be another windy story on wednesday too. the east starts with some sunshine. we mayjust cling onto the mild air here into the afternoon

with a little bit of brightness across east anglia, temperatures could get up to 16 degrees. behind the front, it‘s clearer, it‘s brighter but it‘s consequently colder. temperatures just io—ii, so chillier in the figures to start the day. this perhaps shows the transition best, though. wednesday into thursday, we sweep away the mild atlanta air and we‘re plunged into arctic air, a northerly blast setting up as our area of low pressure that‘s been with us for quite some time gets replaced by a brief ridge of high pressure. —— atlantic air. very clear air coming down from the arctic. there‘ll be some beautiful sunshine around on thursday, some showers, though, for scotland, cold enough to be wintry. gales down the north sea coast. it will be particularly cold when we factor in the wind, and a few showers possible for wales and eastern england on that wind as well. the biggest change for thursday is how it will feel. for the likes of scotland, temperatures will feel closer to freezing when you factor in the wind.

this is bbc news. i‘m mike embley, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. the world health organization warns against complacency after a second firm announced successful trials of a covid—i9 vaccine. i broke into an year—to—year grin wheni i broke into an year—to—year grin when i heard the numbers. it really exceeded our best hopes and it is an incredibly exciting moment for us. —— ear—to—ear. as coronavirus cases in the us top 11 million — president—electjoe biden warns more people could die if trump administration doesn‘t co—operate with the transition. what do you see as the biggest threat to your transition right now, given president trump's unprecedented attempt to

obstruct and delay