judit varga, in budapest, welcome to hardtalk. i'm not talking about good afternoon. the european parliament only. thank you very much well, it's a very difficult and maybe dangerous that a second company has for the invitation. minister, where is the logic position you're taking. developed a coronavirus i'm just going to quote vaccine, but the who is warning in hungary being a member you one senior eu official, against complacency. of the eu club and yet refusing the head of the agency has said to accept the eu's the vice president of the commission, vera jourova, he's extremely concerned core values and rules? who said very recently by a surge in cases that your prime minister, your boss, mr orban, "is fond in europe and the americas. of saying he is "establishing an illiberal democracy. the us president—elect, "the truth is, i would joe biden, has warned that say, he's establishing donald trump's refusal "a very ill democracy." to begin the transition hungarian democracy to those following his election defeat earlier this month seniorfigures in europe looks could cost lives. as though it is very sick right mr biden said more people now, and it's sick might die from covid—19 because of the decisions unless the president worked when we joined the club, that your government is taking. with the incoming team the club had the same motto as to co—ordinate do you think is the statement today, "united in diversity". compatible with the role so it means diversity of national identities of a commissioner, who has is as much important as unity. to be colour—blind? she's making political hungary is a very strong statements, she's attacking and actually damaging vaccination programmes. pro—european country. we've proved it the reputation of a country throughout the centuries. without any kind of legal we always belong to here. but we see today that evidence and even if she had the treaty framework any kind of evidence, what we joined 16 years ago, this is not actually acceptable is loomingly changing, from a vice president thousands of people have been and there is an ever—growing of the commission, who is evacuated from the coasts attempt for a federalist union the guardian of the treaties. of honduras and nicaragua so i'm actually surprised why as hurricane iota bears down which we never signed up to. the question does not on the region damaged two weeks ago by another storm. concern her behaviour. and not to mention that she forecasters say the hurricane threatens to destroy many denied in the czech media homes, wreck power supplies whether she was in an informal and make the area affected and very frequent contact uninhabitable for months. with the hungarian opposition members working in brussels, when they were elaborating the hungarian rule of law report. and we also see that there so it's a mere political are competencies trying coordination from one member to belong to eu competencies, of the european commission, which are core who has to be neutral, sovereign principles. and i don't think who has to guarantee we have to explain it the rights of a fair trial. to the united kingdom, and i'm really surprised, now on bbc news, hardtalk. what the problem with

the ever—closer union why isn't she in the middle of this question? i can tell you that hungary concept may be. is a rule of law state and there are only hungarians welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. the eu has long—threatened who mayjudge on that. to punish the populist but this isn't about any nationalist government in hungary for a failure concept of an ever—closer union so it's, we are talking to uphold core eu values. and creeping assaults on national sovereignty. about political statements, so far, those threats this is about every member have been empty. which is quite a shame from, but now there is a concerted state of the eu signing up effort to link post—covid to some fundamental principles financial aid to compliance including democratic governance, rule of law, with core principles independent judiciary, on the rule of law. recognition of a free media, well, my guest is hungary's respect for human rights. from the, from the vice justice minister, judit varga. on all of these different how far is hungary prepared counts, the eu itself, to go in its defiance 00:01:27,088 --> 2147483051:37:28,259 of brussels‘ institutions 2147483051:37:28,259 --> 4294966103:13:29,430 and eu norms? with its different institutions, is seeing in hungary violation and failure president of the commission. so this should be changed. to meet basic standards. you keep telling me about the rule of law, and i am mindful that you'rejustice minister. are you concerned that in two key rulings from the european court ofjustice in the last few months, the hungarian government has is it a question been found to be in violation of european law? or a statement? because the hungarian have you also checked constitution is based the statistics? on the same fundamental principles, and we tend because it's not inventing to forget that those values the wheel, many countries, all of the countries have infringement procedures which are listed in article 2 and sometimes

are starting with they lose, sometimes they win in the court. and there's always, i would reiterate, unlike other countries of the european union, hungary has always implemented the courtjudgements, the court rulings, because based on the treaties, the court is there to decide when there is a legal freedom, democracy. incompatibility issue and we are going to implement this. it usually takes at least one year, sometimes more, but it is a fair, mostly fair, but it's a european dialogue with the european commission experts and hungarian experts. right. and they always settled all issues, even during hungary has fought the barroso commission. for these values. i'm really intrigued that so it is not really a right you're absolutely determined declaration to say whether some to now follow the guidance of the european court countries would not abide by this. and change your, presumably but when it comes to change your legislation ideological and political to ensure that you're no blackmailing, we cannot use longer in violation. this word — rule of law — so let's just get down to the detail. because there is no the ruling in october objective criteria to that. from the ec] that found hungary and by this, you are infringing broke eu law when its rules upon principal values, forced the central european which is a legal security. university in budapest actually, you have to be to shift its activities abroad. aware of the scene, you're going to make sure that what you have to commit central european university in order to be sanctioned. comes back to budapest, and that's why the treaties are providing a higher guarantee when it comes to the values. and this is article 7 procedure, which requires are you? unanimity, which requires member state governments to look into each other‘s eyes and have a dialogue on those thejudgement concerns values, including rule of law. a hungarian act on upper so i would actually ask whether education, and they were you could define the rule of law and what does this mean?

checking whether this amendment minister, it is interesting you say there should be a dialogue on this issue of rule of law. of the act was in line seems to me since the european with the european union law. parliament invoked, as you say, the article 7 procedures based what's more, they actually were checking the compatibility on serious concern that hungary with wto rules. apart from the fact that was in violation of these core values regarding governance the judgement is very long, and rule of law, since that so it needs a very detailed happened two years ago, far analysis... ah. from engaging in a cooperative ..when it comes to the real dialogue, the hungarian interpretation of that and of course, we already started the dialogue, government has simply issued defiant rhetoric and has or we are about to start this dialogue with the european actually taken measures which, according to the eu's commission and we will top officials, make bring it fully into line with european standards again, our upper education act. now we are checking some other the problem even worse. and then the answer is that let's circumvent the treaties because what we see now member states‘ know—how is the frustration that circumventing the treaty rule of unanimity, and also infringing upon the historic deal and agreement of thejuly european council meeting, where leaders made it

crystal clear by shaking hands that there won't be any kind and legal regulations of ideological blackmailing concerning the upper education, linked to eu funding. because we think that it is one now we are in a situation part of national sovereignty, where this historic recovery plan should be launched at least, to determine the structure of universities as soon as possible. or upper education institutions... you can‘t... and there was a clear deal by ...and we are now, for example, checking the... the leaders to have a package. you can‘t tell me, then... it can be a lot it means that nothing is agreed of implementation. right. until everything is agreed. or upper education institutions... so you can‘t tell me and there is a treaty at all how you‘re going framework. to meet the requirements when we have a problem of the european court with article 7 procedure ofjustice on that one. or with the values, then it so let‘s try another one. should be dealt with at the european court ofjustice said hungary‘s law requiring the proper legal level, not circumventing. and what we experience now with ngos with foreign funding to register and disclose this conditionality regulation, their donors was also a blatant there was a compromise agreed on the 5th of november, violation of eu law. of course, it reflects is actually breaching these the obsession of mr orban principles, not to mention with george soros in particular loyal cooperation and the way in which he funds pro—democracy organisations, between member states. including in hungary. but how are you going so you cannot defend to meet that ruling the rule of law by of the european court? infringing the rule of law. what are you going to when it comes to the european do to change the law parliament, let me also add in hungary on that? mr sackur, i‘m so happy that that it is a political body you asked about this case which had a resolution which itself infringed as well, because here their own procedural rules, the european court ofjustice because abstentions were not itself points out, pointed out, ta ken into account. hungary challenged its decision. the court case is still pending. in a normal, ordinary

rule of law, we should wait for the result. in harmony with the hungarian we should wait for thejudgement that is still to come, maybe early next year. so i see only that institutions explanation of the act, are not actually abiding that just because of to the rule of law, which the funding and the magnitude should also refer to them. and the volume of the funding, there can exist certain civil yet you... society organisations which may have the capability, the ability to influence public opinion. and this is an underlying legitimate reason for more transparency in this case. you don‘t seem to be recognising the point. no, no. no, i‘m sorry, i‘m recognising fully the points. all in all, this historic sorry, i‘m the justice package should be launched minister, i read thatjudgement as soon as possible, and maybe i‘m more aware and the money should be given of the details than any to those who are most in need. otherforeign or expert and moral responsibility lies journalist could be aware of. with those who are actually and somehow, the public opinion pressuring ideological blackmailing in the name of this valuable and really precious principle of rule of law. in western europe is trying minister, you're putting an awful lot of information out to evade the fact that in part, there, some of which, for some people watching and when it comes to this around the world, will be the objective, we are not in dispute, and we are not a little complex to take in. in disharmony because our objective was legitimised by the court. but the november 5th it is a matter and it decision that you refer to, is a dispute and a and you keep calling it blackmail, is really debate of the means. quite a simple thing. so we will find the means how the european parliament we can serve this public and the european council appear to have agreed that interest, that we require full for the first time, the eu transparency in case of certain civil society organisations will link the disbursement of which may have the capability financial aid, and particularly to influence public opinion.

we're talking about the emergency financial so this is a national package post—covid i9, security issue. they're going to link it this is a legitimate democratic to member states‘ respect and european value issue. transparency is, you know, the, the main principle of every commissioner. look at what‘s going on in the european parliament. they are requiring 150% transparency when it comes to ngo funding, for example, no? as you point out... why is it a problem when hungary is requiring this is a legitimate democratic for the rule of law. and european value issue. transparency is, you know, the, the main principle of every commissioner. look at what‘s going on in the european parliament. they are requiring 150% transparency when it comes to ngo funding, for example, no? as you point out... why is it a problem and you have a fundamental when hungary is requiring problem because the eu the same thing? institutions do not think you are respecting as you point out, you are the rule of law. thejustice minister, now, you're thejustice i‘m merely a journalist. minister, what are you going to do about it? but as a journalist, i am interested to know whether you care about press freedom in your country? actually, there are also proposals in the european of course. parliament raising this issue, but let me reiterate press freedom is guaranteed again, what we experience here is an infringement by the constitution, of the treaty framework, is a circumvention of so it is among the values, article 7 procedure, which is the unanimity procedure, now they are the framework for the media circumventing it with a qualified majority. regulation was actually they are breaking the deal of approved already by the barroso thejuly historic eu agreement. this is the real issue here, commission and the venice commission also approved it. just in order to exert

political and ideological pressure. so this is fully in and if you don't believe me, line and in harmony, all the regulatory framework for press freedom in hungary. just read the statements, so what is the question? hang on, all right. so let‘s measure your commitment to it the enthusiastic statements against reality. of liberal mps, meps and also some commissioners, reporters without borders describes the level of state that they say "if you don't media control by the government take our line", be it and its allies in hungary as, concerning ideologies of family policy, migration policy, quote, "unprecedented "now we have a tool to force in an eu member state." freedom house, the independent you to take that line". isn't it reminding us of certain regimes, which hungary experienced watchdog, says that it can no already in the past, it was the same logic, like the sargentini method. longer consider hungary to be there is no problem with each a democracy, given that the, and every piece of legislation. quote, "metrics for rule and whenever hungary had the problem, we had an infringement procedure. and at the end, we made harmony with our laws, "of law and press freedom have with the european union law. this is the real procedure to come into line with european standards. sunk so low." but when you prove that and just one specific case that you are right or when you have might worry you if you care no dispute any more legally about press freedom. in april, a very big with the european commission, then comes the nice businessman close to mr orban sentence that you don't fit bought a 50% stake in the the ideological picture, and company that controls index. the overall picture is wrong. that is one of the last so it is, i'm sorry to say, but in communist times, we have the same rhythm and methodology, that independent journalistic if you don't fit this line, if you don't fit ideologically what the mainstream is, then you get punished.

and i'm really surprised... organisations in hungary. he gained control of the revenue streams and the advertising for index. and you know what? hang on. injuly, just a couple ..how bluntly they actually now of months later, the editor in chief of index was fired. are really naming it. so much for your commitment well, you can... to press freedom, minister. look at the declarations of many meps and yes, you are actually some commissioners. now asking a member you can sit there in budapest, of the executive to intervene i guess, and compare in a market situation, the european parliament to some it‘s like when the... you would just ask your sort of communist institution. justice secretary to pick up you can choose to say that the phone when, for example, hungary is right and that the editor in chief all the other member states of the european union are wrong. 00:08:28,069 --> 2147483051:40:58,750 but that really is a very 2147483051:40:58,750 --> 4294966103:13:29,430 dangerous position. of the guardian would be dismissed by the owner. so i don‘t really interpret the question. this is a media pluralism. everybody in europe is determined by market situation and market trends. you know better than i do, minister, this is nothing to do with media pluralism, this is to do with media concentration, the so—called... why? ..central european press and media foundation conglomerate. hang on. hello? let mejust finish. it owns the vast majority of media outlets now... 0k, sorry. ..in hungary. this is a clear case

of the government and its allies very efficiently and effectively moving to control the media industry in your country. and it doesn‘t appear to worry you at all. have you actually listened to the statistical data as well? what is the popularity of certain media outlets? so this conglomerate is just following european standards. for the sake of business rationality, there are consortia and conglomerates. if you look at how big a share of the market has sanoma in finland, or the bertelsmann group in germany, you should actually ask the same question about the same pattern. i think what here matters when it comes to media pluralism, that there should be, there should be guaranteed that the real pluralism in public opinion, in public disputes, and in the media landscape, should be provided by the legislative framework. and it is openly provided in hungary. so market players can do their own decisions

based on business rationality, as everywhere in the world. i would just recommend you to listen to the public debate tomorrow, actually on the rule of law report, concerning some other countries. and you may end up with interesting information about other countries‘ media market. why is it always a fixation on hungarian media situation? open up the online media, it‘s 80% so critical towards the government. and mainly there is a big dominance here of liberal outlets, especially in the online sector. and we all know that people are watching internet day and night. so ijust don‘t get the question and the suspicion about anything. i‘m sorry you don‘t get my questions, but let‘s try and make things simple. itjust seems to me you‘ve got a problem right now, because like so many countries in europe, hungary is suffering with the covid—i9 pandemic. you‘re currently undergoing special restrictions, including night—time curfews. your economy is suffering. and there is a game—changing difference now in the european union.

they are going to tie, it seems, financial assistance post—covid to all of these issues i‘ve discussed with you. now, you say that hungary doesn‘t have a single problem and that europe‘s got it wrong. your problem is, brussels doesn‘t see it that way, and your economy is very dependent on money coming from the eu. 45% of your gdp pre—covid was coming from the european union. you can‘t afford to fall out with the eu in a way that affects your financial future. so i come back to this basic question. are you in the end going to drop the defiance and compromise with brussels? actually, mr sackur, if i wouldn‘t respect you for your long experience as a well—known journalist, which i truly admire, i would more harshly refuse this kind of statement already formulated in your question like a blackmail. look, the hungarian

people and hungary, had a very, a very big performance and successful economic performance throughout the last ten years. and of course we shouldn‘t, no—one should make any kind of politics about this very unfortunate situation, what covid crisis cost to us. but i don‘t think it is hungary who is in the main economic trouble. and that‘s what we always said injuly, even though we had philosophical concerns about taking up such a huge loan and push into indebtedness the next generations for 30 years, because we‘ve learned also during communism that it‘s not a good recipe. but we gave up this philosophical concern. we set it aside. we signed up to this historic solidarity agreement and all those who, despite the fact that hungary never actually hid any kind of surprise, we said that we will never give in to this ideological blackmailing, which is actually under the pretext of the concept of rule of law, is realising in this concept.

those who actually made the situation come true today in these ways, and europe is in a deadlock now, those should solve this problem. our message is that we should give the money for those member states who are much more in need of that money. so it is morally an irresponsible behaviour when those are not concentrating on the covid and the crisis, and the economic crisis. but they are actually pressuring and blackmailing with ideological debates, certain countries, which they all knew that we would never accept. so this is — we should name the game, i think, sadly, we are out of time. so, judit varga, i must thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk from budapest. oh, i was enjoying. thank you very much. thank you.

hello. we‘re all going to be sitting under a fairly hefty whack of cloud in the next few days. that cloud is being pulled in from the atlantic and it comes along with some very mild air. if it does thin and break in a few spots, which it may do with a little bit of help from the hills, we could see our temperatures in eastern regions shooting up today. but as we continue to pull in the south—westerly air into western scotland, there‘s going to be a lot of moisture around. here, some fairly relentless rain and across the hills, the totals keep adding up. i think we‘ll see perhaps some rain setting in from western wales and parts of northern ireland with the higher ground,

especially through the day as well. a lot of cloud around, as i said, but some sheltered eastern spots will see the sun coming out and the temperatures could shoot up to 16, even 17 degrees, but widely, we‘re in the mid—teens on tuesday, despite the grey skies. through tuesday evening over into wednesday, still lots of cloud around, still that rain across western scotland. a mild start to wednesday in many areas, temperatures down no lower than the low teens. what actually happens through wednesday is during the daytime, temperatures come down, for some as this weather front advances from the west. yes, rain, it‘ll be another windy story on wednesday too. the east starts with some sunshine. we may cling onto the mild air here into the afternoon with brightness across east anglia, temperatures could get up to 16 degrees. behind the front, clearer, brighter consequently colder. temperatures just io—ii, so chillier in the figures to start the day. this perhaps shows the transition best, though.

wednesday into thursday, we sweep away the mild atlanta air and we‘re plunged into arctic air, a northerly blast setting up as our area of low pressure that‘s been with us for quite some time gets replaced by a brief ridge of high pressure. very clear air coming down from the arctic. there‘ll be some beautiful sunshine around on thursday, some showers, though, for scotland, cold enough to be wintry. gales down the north sea coast. it will be particularly cold when we factor in the wind, and a few showers possible for wales and eastern england on that wind as well. the biggest change for thursday is how it will feel. for the likes of scotland, temperatures will feel closer to freezing when you factor in the wind.

this is bbc news. i‘m sally bundock with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk

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