thanksgiving holiday, the country's most important family holiday. the number of patients hospitalized with covid—19 has jumped nearly 50% in the last two weeks. president—electjoe biden has called for unity in what he described as a national emergency. more than two weeks after the us presidential election, donald trump's lawyer, rudy giuliani, claims fraud in democrat—supporting cities cheated the president of victory. he put forward no evidence to back that up but alleged a communist plot was behind the mass switching of votes tojoe biden. a draft report about one of the british government's most important members, home secretary, priti patel, concluded this summer that she broke rules on ministerial behaviour. she'd been accused of bullying staff. the most senior official in her department, who resigned, said that staff felt she "‘created fear‘ in the department. now on bbc news, hardtalk.

welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. as if the eu didn't have problems enough, what with the pandemic and brexit, the union is now facing an internal political crisis. two members, poland and hungary, are blocking the passage of a new budget and post—covid recovery package, claiming it includes unacceptable conditions. at issue is the eu's ability to tie funds to members‘ adherence to core eu values. well, my guest is poland's deputy foreign minister, paweljablonski. can poland afford to defy brussels' will?

paweljablonski in warsaw, welcome to hardtalk. welcome, stephen, thank you for having me today. it's a pleasure to have you. now, 25 of 27 eu member states want to see the eu budget and a recovery package post—covid passed. you and the hungarians are blocking passage of this massive financial package. that's a dangerous place to be, isn't it? we also want it passed and we want it passed as quickly and swiftly as possible, but we also need guarantees. we need to have our rights that are enshrined in the european

treaties protected properly. and unfortunately, it comes with caveats that we cannot accept. these caveats being certain regulations that are declared to be aimed at conditionality based on the protection of the rule of law. but in fact, these provisions are so vague and so wide that they would allow for purely politically motivated action, politically motivated financial sanctions against poland, against hungary, against any other member state, in fact. but poland and hungary are being targeted for months now. and we know very well that it would simply be used at the very next day against us. with respect, poland and hungary are not being targeted. neither country is mentioned in this deal that was put togetherjust a few days ago. and it's quite clear that all eu member states want to protect their sovereignty. as i say, 25 of the 27

see no threat to their sovereignty here. what makes poland so different? well, obviously, in the written text, there's no specific country mentioned. that's the nature of legal texts, but the conditions for triggering sanctions are so wide, so ambiguous, that the commission could start this procedure simply by declaring that there is potential risk and potential sufficient risk, which can mean absolutely anything. and we already heard in the previous weeks from various politicians as high in the european institutions as deputy president of the european parliament, that hungary must be starved, financially starved, and poland likewise. so, there's no doubt that this mechanism will be used, will be abused in the nearfuture if it is adopted. we cannot agree to this. agreeing to this would be

unreasonable from our side. you are one nation of 27. as i say, you and hungary are the only ones blocking passage of the budget and the emergency recovery package. combine that together and we are talking about a sum of money which comes close to two trillion euros. you in poland knowjust how important this money is because, frankly, every single year, between 3% and 4% of your gdp is cash from the european union. in practical terms, you're going to have to back down. you can't continue to block passage of the budget, can you? we absolutely understand how important that is and probably even more important for certain countries in europe that have been struck with the pandemic, with the post—pandemic crisis that is coming, and they are expecting even more consequences in the near future. so, we know perfectly well that it is very much needed. it is also needed in our country.

it's also needed in virtually every country in the eu. but look at that. we could adopt this budget now. we could say that we are not blocking the package and it could enter into force. but as i said before, we have every reason to believe that on the next day the commission would start a procedure that would effectively block these funds. the same funds would block, but simply for poland and hungary, and then we wouldn't have anything more to say. and another very important thing, it is not exactly true. and actually the number of 25 countries, we had initial indicative procedure on monday. well, poland and hungary openly said that we do not agree to it, but other countries didn't say so, many of them probably because of the fact that they do not want to be targeted as poland and hungary is. but with respect, minister... please let me just finish this one sentence. we already had yesterday, the day before, prime minister

of slovenia indicating very openly, very clearly that this mechanism, if this would be adopted, this would mean the end of the european union. i can't imagine stronger words than that. but you're not really addressing my point about practical politics. you've already said to me that the polish economy does need european money. the second spike of covid's hit your country very hard. i see that one member of your monetary policy committee is now saying that your contraction in the economy this year might be io%, and it could well be around 2% or 3% next year as well. poland is in a big mess. you need european money more than most countries. and when your, one of your ministers, a fellow minister, said yesterday that, "what is the price of sovereignty? sovereignty is priceless. " that's clearly not true. the polish people know that your economy needs rescuing. and without the eu, it ain't going to get rescued. so, you are going to have to get real at some point soon. we are very real.

we are looking at the numbers and we see that our economy is, of course, dealing with the crisis, as is every other economy in the eu. actually, the numbers for poland compared to most of the european countries are fairly good. it would mean that we will not lose that much of gdp growth this year and we will recover quite swiftly. all the financial institutions are predicting so. and of course, it is necessary for us to be involved and we wanted an even more ambitious european package. but if you look at the numbers, also at the public support for that, almost 60% of our nation supports this approach because we know perfectly well that we could agree to it, but then we would be at very high risk of losing this money anyway. so, this is not a position for us to choose whether we lose this money now or later. all right, well... this is the only moment when we could block in general the principles that are breaching our rights, that are threatening to our, not just sovereignty,

but also threatening the principles on which the european union is based. so, in a word, then, those in the european union, like the austrian president, who've said that the eu is not going to give way on this, that conditionality will be applied to the budget and the economic recovery package, you are saying you will not blink. and if you need to bring down the whole eu budget process, you will. is that what you're saying? we hope that the common sense will return to the conversation more or less, because we feel that there are certain countries, there are certain very hawkish countries, most of all the netherlands, austria as well, that from the very beginning wanted the budget to be very small, not ambitious, to cut, to make more cuts, even when the pandemic started. and injuly, they agreed to a compromise. but inevitably, they seem to believe that there's still an option to block it somehow. now they want to take

advantage of the situation, and now everybody seems to be shocked that poland and hungary exercised their right to veto the provisions that we did not agree to. well, if that's a shock, i am surprised, because we have been very open from the very beginning and our position is going to remain unchanged. most of all, most of all, we believe that it is not the time for naming and shaming and indicating what are the differences among member states. we believe that we should find common ground instead of looking for differences. all right. so, let's get to the political nub of this. you tell me that you feel that the day after passage of this budget and recovery package, poland would be targeted, poland would be robbed of its moneys. the only reason you say that is because you know as well as i do that when it comes to the rule of law, which, of course, is something you've signed up to as a core value of the european union, when it comes to the rule of law, poland in recent years and months has consistently

violated that principle. rule of law, independent judiciary, your government has committed violation after violation. this is exactly the opinion of the european commission, of various european institutions, and this is one of the examples why we believe that there is no equal treatment in the european union. but the european union... let me finish this because this is very important. european union hasn't investigated one thing. they had an opinion based on political arguments that we are breaching certain european rules. we have been pointing repeatedly that every single provision in our law is similar or identical to other european member states. the process of appointing judges, it's much less politicised than in germany or france, it's very similar to the one in spain. it's less politicised than in uk or ireland because it's the judges, in the end, that appoint themselves,

that promote themselves, that discipline themselves. and still, the eu believes that it is poland that breaches the eu regulation, while in germany, politicians can appoint and dismiss judges at their will, in the first four years ofjudicial career. european commission never had any problem with that. we as poland, we also don't have any problem with that because we believe every country has its right to shape its judiciary system, but only poland is targeted. well, yeah, but there's shaping a judicial system and then there's shaping it in ways that are unacceptable. i mean, you, forgive me if i'm wrong, but i believe you're a trained lawyer, right? yes, exactly. i'm an attorney. that's what i thought. so, i would imagine that your legal education was founded upon the principle of separation of powers and the independence of the judiciary. exactly right, and this is exactly what we have, in poland, what is observed. then, explain to me, on various initiatives taken by the law and justice party government, for example, appointing close allies to this

constitutional tribunal, taking over the body that selects newjudges, attempting to purge the supreme court itself. explain how all of those actions taken by the government, which you speak for and represent, adhere to the principle of separation of powers, independent judiciary? i absolutely reject these assumptions, these, these accusations that you form in this way. but they're not accusations, they're actions taken by your government, as you well know. because constitutional tribunal in poland, for 23 years already, is elected by the parliament. that's the simple rule written down in our constitution, it is the parliament that appointsjudges to the constitutional tribunal. before our government took over, five years ago, the constitutional tribunal was composed and the vast majority of the... ..13 out of 15judges were appointed by the previous government. right now, we took over,

we won the election, then we won another election. that's the natural process of democracy. this is a natural... hang on, mrjablonski, this has to be a give and take, a 0&a, notjust statements. i mean, you say that the european parliament and others are taking political positions against your government, mischaracterising your legal initiatives. how about the european court ofjustice, which in april ordered the suspension of a new disciplinary chamber of the polish supreme court, looking at what it called a politically selected membership? this was a ruling from europe's highest court. it wasn't a ruling coming from the european parliament. look, here's the... here's the thing why we believe this is all politically motivated. no, i'm sorry, this is not political. this isjudicial. this is the european court ofjustice. you said yourself this is a q&a exchange, so, please, let me answer to your questions and assumptions, because otherwise this wouldn't be an exchange. go on. why we believe that it is politically motivated, in 2008,

before we took over, when our predecessors were in power, thejudges in poland also protested against certain reforms and they applied to the european commission also to bring a procedure before the court ofjustice, and the commission answered very clearly, clearly, that this is not a matter for european union to take, to get involved in the judiciary. once we took over, it immediately changed, it immediately started to go the other way around. and that is why when we look at the history and we look at the facts, the procedures of appointing judges before we took over were very similar, if we speak about the constitutional court, but nobody ever said anything. so, the particularjudgement of the european court ofjustice, which i referred to, are you saying that's political too? you now, even, no longer accept the legitimacy of the european court ofjustice? is that it? 0h, we do. but we also accept the principle of conferral, which is enshrined in

the treaty of the european union, that on the competences conferred upon the institutions of the eu, can be exercised. and this is also the position of german constitutional court, which rejected several verdicts of the court ofjustice in luxembourg. i see. because they have very similar approach with respect to this. the union can act within the framework of the treaties. if it exceeds these competences, then it breaches the principle of sovereignty, the principle of conferral. you're a trained attorney. we've established that, but you're also now deputy minister of foreign affairs. would you accept that the political climate in which your government operates right now has fundamentally changed with the election victory ofjoe biden and the defeat of your great friend, your government's great friend, donald trump? well, definitely the environment change in the us, but i believe that american priorities, american strategic interests in europe, and in general worldwide,

haven't changed that much and will not change that much because there are certain geopolitical circumstances which have not changed or maybe they will change in the future. but democrats have been very similar, with a very similar approach, vis a vis, for example, the threats from russia. and this is the main interest that is important for us in this perspective, is security in europe. yes. i believe we don't have... there is no big chance of changing this in the future, unfortunately, because we would like this russian threat to diminish. but until it doesn't, it will remain, and also in america, a very important point. but yourjob, obviously, is to read the political weather very carefully. and the political weather has changed just as you and hungary go in to this stand—off, this crisis moment with the other member states of the european union. you're now faced with

a united states, which under donald trump was a very close ally of yours and which under joe biden promises to be something very different. i'm sure you saw his quotes on the campaign trail where he seemed to refer to poland and hungary in the same breath as belarus and other totalitarian regimes in the world. he made a point of protesting about and condemning the treatment of lgbt people in poland. joe biden is going to put new kinds of political pressure on your government at the very time you're in crisis with your fellow members of the european union. just doesn't look like a good place to be. we believe that one needs to distinguish between the campaign and things that are being said during the campaign and the actual strategic interests of the country, and actual strategic interests are very similar and have been very similar. of course, politically, there are big differences, and it's natural that

conservative governments tend to cooperate closer than conservative and liberal government because there are natural similarities and natural differences. but i don't believe that these emotions will be determining the policy because this would be unwise. this would be simply unreasonable to just act on emotions. strategic global interests remain very similar. the threats remain very similar, and we remain one of the closest allies of america. it was so under trump administration, it was very similar under obama administration, earlier under the bush administration, likewise. and we also work very closely together with democratic congressmen in passing, certainly, our diplomacy is very active in promoting the needs of europe in terms of security among congressmen from both sides of the aisle. so i don't expect anything particularly will change. so, i don't expect anything particularly will change. all right, you're clearly confident on that basis.

but when you talk about diplomacy and you talk about the priority of security, you must also understand, surely, in yourjob at the foreign ministry that poland's reputation matters when it comes to the strength of its alliances. poland's reputation, i would put it to you, has suffered some real blows in recent times because of the stance taken on lgbt rights, and also in particular of the recentjudgement from the constitutional court, which has, in essence, outlawed pretty much all forms of abortion in your country. now, we've seen the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of women protesting on the streets of polish towns and cities, and the condemnation that has poured in from western democracies, from the united states and from the european union member states as well, from activists who say that poland is going in completely the wrong direction, abusing human rights. how damaged do you think poland's reputation is?

well, most of all, we believe that if there is a choice between good reputation and protecting our national interests, it should always be the latter that it is chosen, because national interest goes above everything. and we have been doing that. we have been expressing that we don't agree to certain policies of the eu. we want to protect our interests much better. and of course, for the last five years, when our government took over, there was a fierce and very brutal attack on that. and then, of course, comes the reputation. but we believe it is better to go on and to express what we believe is right than to simply agree to everything and then being patted on the shoulder. speaking of the verdict of the constitutional tribunal, well, this is exactly what constitutional tribunal has been declaring in its verdicts consistently over the period of the last 20 years, that there are various degrees of protection

for human rights. there is one among these human rights, there's one principle, the right to life. and the constitutional tribunal has outlawed an abortion when down‘s syndrome or other non—lethal conditions are being found. but still, in case of danger to life or health of mother, it is still allowed. nothing has changed in this respect. so, i wanted to correct that because it is not true that it is outlawed in all cases. well, i said, in effect, because if one looks at the number of abortions in poland last year, the numbers that would now be illegal as a result of the decision of the constitutional tribunal is a vast proportion of them. so, very few, very few abortions will take place in poland from now on if this decision is ratified, which i believe it hasn't been yet. but let mejust finish with one thought. it sounds like this would be a cause for worry that very few abortions will take place. we disagree on that. and i'm sorry, we probably won't be agreeing on this

matter and i won't be apologising for it. but this is our position, we are against it. understood. we believe this is our right, it is a national decision. you make a very fair point, which leads me to my last question. i look at the polling evidence. the surveys suggest a clear majority of poles are unsettled and unhappy with the abortion decision that the tribunal came outwith. but then one digs deeper in opinion polls and surveys, and one sees that the performance of the law and justice party right now amongst younger poles, all those, infact, under50 years old, is disastrous. law and justice clearly is losing support. i just wonder whether you feel your government is vulnerable right now, at a time when it is taking on the other member states of the eu, is losing a big ally in washington? it seems like a time of real vulnerability. i know that's how certain media portray it, that we are being overwhelmed by negative events, by polls. but also, there are different

polls, and we just had very good polls yesterday that seem to have reversed that trend. i think that also reported that majority, vast majority of our nation supports vetoing this arbitrary regulation vis a vis the eu budget. and so we see that, well, we have elections in three years. so, there is still a lot of time until that, and the election is the ultimate poll. we won the election this year, presidential elections last year, parliamentary elections, and a very clear conservative mandate. nobody ever questioned that we are of this position. nobody should be surprised about this and the protest — people have the right to protest, to express their political opinions. but we believe that our mandate is clear. right. our constituents wanted our government to implement this law. and it will also... if there will be debates, we are open to dialogue, as always. all right. a proposition to amend certain provisions was presented.

we are open to dialogue all the time. pawel jablonski, i thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you. thank you, stephen. my pleasure. hello there. the short—lived cold snap, it's on its way out now, as we start to see mild air making inroads off of the atlantic but laden with moisture. we'll see a lot more cloud and outbreaks of rain spreading eastwards across the country during the course of today. you can see the cold air still looms across the eastern side of the country to begin today, but gradually, that milder air will move in on a strengthening west—southwesterly breeze.

so, it starts off dry and chilly, maybe some early brightness in the east. very soon, the cloud thickens, with patchy rain spreading eastwards. mainly light and patchy, a few heavier bursts across scotland, perhaps even some brief wintriness briefly over the higher ground, before that mild air moves in. the winds also picking up, particularly out across the north west, gusts of a0 to 45 miles an hour into the evening. and here, it will be turning milder by the end of the day — i2, 13 degrees — but further east, still quite chilly under that cloud and rain. but as we head through the course of tonight, it does look like it'll turn milder for all. it stays rather cloudy, but drier for england and wales. scotland, northern ireland, a new cold front will be sinking southwards, bringing outbreaks of rain. behind it, it will turn cooler with some blustery showers, but double figure values for most. so, into the weekend, then, we've got that new cold front sinking southeastwards across the country gradually. behind it, the air will be turning cooler. and along that cold front, there will be a band of cloud and some patchy rain moving out of northern ireland and into southern scotland and heading south into england and wales through the day.

behind it, skies brighten up. we'll see sunny spells but some blustery showers for scotland and northern ireland. it'll be very windy here, particularly northern scotland, with widespread gales. so, turning a bit cooler later in the day across the north, but mild for england and wales. quite a bit of cloud around, 13—14 degrees. that cold front then moves southwards and ends up lingering across southern england on sunday, but behind it, you'll notice we're in that cooler air mass, so it could be cloudy across southern england throughout the day. but for much of the country, actually bright on sunday with some good spells of sunshine. but it stays breezy in the north, with further blustery showers across northern and western scotland. winds lighter in the south. those temperatures lower than on saturday — 8 to around 10 or 11 degrees in the south. and then as we head on into next week, it looks like it turns milder again, with south—southwesterly winds moving in, but a low—pressure system will bring outbreaks of rain, particularly to the north and the west of the country.

this is bbc news. i'm lewis vaughan jones with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. as americans are asked to stay home for thanksgiving, joe biden says president trump is refusing to cooperate. it will be another incident where he will go down in history as being one of the most irresponsible presidents in american history. georgia's secretary of state announces a recount of ballots confirmsjoe biden as winning the presidential vote. by by douglas stewart. —— shuggie bain by by douglas stuart. and douglas stuart's novel

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