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now on bbc news, it's hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. for more than two decades, northern ireland has been more or less at peace. but what about reconciliation between the two communities, unionists and nationalists whose conflict caused three lives. well, that hasn't happened. why not? could the uk's exit from the eu heighten tensions further? well, my guest is billy hutchinson, former loyalist, paramilitary and convicted killer turned advocate of dialogue and coexistence. is hope or fear dominant in northern ireland?

billy hutchinson in belfast, welcome to hardtalk. thank you, stephen. i want to begin with identity. it seems to me identity has been at the heart of the northern ireland conflict for many decades. i just wonder if your sense of your own identity has changed over your lifetime? well, i suppose it has, stephen. but from my point of view, i want to remain part of the uk. i feel british and because a part of me, that's my sense of belonging.

but it's notjust about that, i suppose in many ways how i see i have change. and i think it's changed a good bit in the sense that we are now 2020, and we need to be living in a modern uk. and i think we need to upgrade and make sure that our britishness actually entails all of those things that actually exists within the uk. so for me... yeah, no, if you're sense of what unionism is and what britishish is has change of time, i guess i need then to take you back to find out what it felt like to identify as a unionist when you were a kid. because it is, i think, important to understand where you came from. so, just give me a sense of the family you came from, the environment you lived in as a child, and what that led you toward as a teenager. well, i always tell people i was born in a mixed marriage because my father was

a systemist and my mother was a unionist, a very strong unionist. and i think when i think back to those days, and they talked about, this was a government for unionist people and they didn't really treat us like, people were still in poverty. they weren't dealing with issues they should of been dealing with. so therefore, people talk about discrimination in northern ireland against catholics. i was born in the protestant community. my parents were discriminated against. and so were some of the neighbours. so... hang on, you mean discriminated against in what sense? because they were poor and working class and that they unionists had? yeah. working—class people were treated the same and they would just be discriminated against. they were interested in the middle classes and those should i say it?

you know, they were interested in the ascendancy, those people with all the money. that's who they were looking after. they weren't really looking after these communities. ithink... here's what intrigues me, billy. i'm sorry to interrupt you but here's what intrigues me, you're characterising yourself as a young man brought up in a pretty tough neighbourhood. your family had very little, the culture was pretty rough. and yet, you had a choice, you could have chosen to identify with other poor people in northern ireland including poor catholics who were living not so very far from you on the shankhill road. the neighbourhoods are very close together. you could have seen a solidarity there. but you chose to see a solidarity with the more extreme form of unionism. you joined loyalist groups who were increasingly committed to violence, as a teenager. why did you make that decision? well, you know, you talked about choice. you don't get a choice, you get options. particularly whenever there is fear. in communities where

people are being shot dead, people are being murdered with bombs. also the fear that the british government at that particular time, in relation to northern ireland were doing the right thing. so i'm not trying to justify, but what i'm saying is, it was very clear that we lived in terrible times. we had a collective fear. i took one of the options that was open to me. well, i understand... friends who were... i understand that there was obviously a secretarian or communal violence at that time. we're talking about the mid to late ‘60s. and i understand the fear. but not every young man raised in a tough neighbourhood with that violence around them chose to take up violence and in the end wield a gun for a group like the ulster volunteer force. that's what you chose to do, not all of your neighbours and friends in peer group made the same decision. so i really want to get to why billy hutchinson adopted that extreme

path of violence. because we didn't have a choice. it was an option. we either sat back and let them kill us or we defended ourselves and i think that's what happened. it was that fear that was there, there was lots of things we're talking about. so from my point of view, i took that decision that i wasn't going to the ira to kill people and i wasn't going to let them bomb and kill us. that was my view. the point, mr hutchinson is, you may have made that decision that you were going to stand up to the ira at that very difficult time in northern ireland but the truth of what you did is it wasn't directed against the ira at all. what you and another young man did was go out in your car, find two young catholics in a catholic part of belfast and shoot them dead. random attack on two individuals who had no connection to the paramilitaries at all. that's not being

a soldier in a war, that's just a terrible terrorist crime. stephen, the point of it is, and i know that people are mad we didn't get this. but what you are saying is, you don't understand the strategy. i mean, the ira needed to be driven out of those communities. we didn't have uniforms like you say without army. they were out doing the same things that we were doing at that time you couldn't identify people. but there was information that came forward about certain people and it was used against them. but the strategy was that if you attack a catholic community, they will drive the ira out. now whether that worked or not, it didn't work and we know it didn't work. the issue is, if you have to make strategy and you have to take these, if strategy doesn't work then strategy doesn't work. later on in the conflict when there was more information about members of the ira, that was ok. even that that early stage,

the police didn't have all the information about the ira. their information was from 1856, not the 1970s. that's how it is. i understand. i'm just trying to pin down exactly what was going on in your mind. because you've written your memoir, my life in loyalism, and you've tried to tell us a little bit about your mindset, but it's a little bit contradictory because on the one hand you felt it seems that you had to attacked the wider catholic community to try and get catholics to turn on the ira. but then you tell me that you had certain informations that targeted your attacks in some way. seems to me that as a young man you just went out to deliberately murder any catholic you could find. and maybe it's time to be honest about that. well, stephen. iam being honest, let mejust

be clear, i can't be bullied in an interview. i respect you as a person, you need to listen to what i'm saying. you're contradicting me and i didn't contradict myself. i said to you that's the way it was. in ‘74 there was a lot of information on people so we are talking about two different errors. stephen, so are you telling me that the ira weren't involved in the sort of stuff? they put a bomb in the shankhill in the of a busy shopping centre and killed people. i don't want to talk about it i want to talk about myself. i've told you that there was a strategy, that and i take responsibility for what i've done. but i also take responsibility for any other decisions that i made. the issue is, how do we move forward in northern ireland? what i'm saying to you is... i couldn't agree more, mr hutchinson. we are talking in 2020 and we are reflecting on events that were in 1974, and it's a long time and you say that the whole

issue now is how to move forward. one way to move forward, and i put this in the introduction to the interview was to think about the different ways that northern ireland can come to a reconciliation with itself about the past and then moved to the future. would not one way to do that before people like you to talk about remorse and regret and reach out to the families of those that you killed? well, if we were to do that it would never work. why not? have you ever tried? stephen, are you going to let me answer the question? what republicans want is someone at the dispatch box.

that isn't going to happen. and take responsibility for the ireland government. that isn't going to happen. the reality is if we're going to we need to have reconciliation. there are republicans whojust decide to tell a story in a very sort of, trusted way that didn't help them. and my point is, yeah, you want to talk reconciliation. i've worked in reconciliation projects, i've worked with people on the other side. i've worked with people who are members of the fighting ira. so stephen, i was one of the people who along with others were involved in ceasefires. i was also involved in the... i do know that. yeah, well, what i'm saying to you is, that my record will stand up with the rest of the people i've been working with over the years. my point, my point... this is both political but it also deeply personal. my point is that i'm very mindful that a man that you came to respect a great deal when you wee in prison, and i should tell everybody watching, you spent 15 years or so in prison for this murder. a man that you came

to respect was gusty spence. gusty spence was another loyalist gunman who evolved thinking when he was in prison. he said this in 1994 at the time of the loyalist decision tojoin a cease—fire he said, "in all sincerity we must now offer to the loved ones of all innocent victims of the last 25 years our abject and true remorse." and ijust wonder... i mean, let me put the statement in context. it was said in a corporate way, and i believe that any organisation need to actually take responsibility. but it's the organisation takes that responsibility. all of this stuff about truth and responsibility, people get hunted down. this is a very small country

and people leak things in the media. and some saying to you is, yes, i believe in all that was up i believe in the statement. and i've written a statement. we need to move forward and we need, nobody, the politicians haven't come up with answers. from that point of view they have not got answers without the republicans haven't got any answers. and the point that it may continue is, i'd get involved in the process and ensure that others are but you know, we are not at that stage. what i want to know is, what you think today if we fast forward from the good friday agreement of 1998 and the decommissioning of the weapons, whether you think there is any excuse or any reason at all for any unionist people in northern ireland to still believe that there is room for an organisation like the ulster volunteer force or any paramilitary organisation? we understand from the police that some of them still do exist. well i mean, stephen, the reality is, my view

is and the view of my party is that we would like to see parliament organisation that don't exist the difficulty is there is not a conflict more for that we don't get people who are at dragging their heels. doesn't matter where you go. people are still dragging their heels from 20 or 30 or a0 years ago. and that's the reality. the reality is that we must find that solution and we must find an end. i would like to see an end all notjust won but people need in many ways, heard and guided towards this. my question to you is, i'm looking at a quote from a senior policeman i dare say it you know him bobby singleton who works inside the northern ireland police service on paramilitary. i know bobby singleton very well, yeah. he said not so long ago, loyalist, roman military group steadily continue to exist. they also continue to read fruitful.

——recruit. and in loyalty as communities we are talking about a significant number. you are a unionist politician for that you serve as a councilman and one area of belfast — you have amazing contacts given your passport, are you talking to some of these people? and are you trying to persuade them that however had the tensions are in northern ireland might become of the brexit and a host of other things, that there can never be a return to violence? well, my view is that i don't want future generations turned around. we need to have a quality and we need to be treated the same. can you tally many people he's arrested because this is the the problem is the police they don't seem to be actually running people

to justice or anything else. from my point of view, if people are still involved in plenty of places and they need to stop and get on with actually dealing with the problems that we have. this is a very complex sort of, situation that we are in. my view is yes, we want to see an end to all of this. and sooner or later they will get to that stage. for me that is the issue. the issue is whether we get that stage and whether we get help that actually get to that stage. this is a complex transformation. and i think that people need to be helped to get there, you know we on the whole decommission bit. you can't bring everybody with them. there will be people who... what i say is the union leadership have worked hard to make sure to keep people on peaceful lane and they can actually withdraw whenever they are giving the hand. from that point of view,... let's talk about the wider picture. right behind your shoulder is the union flag. the symbol in northern ireland of your allegiance to the union.

just how fragile do you think the unionist position in northern ireland is today? if whaen thinks about the brexit situation, the majority of people in northern ireland voted to remain put up but we are not remaining, we've left that european union. there is a sense that as a result of that, there is a stronger argument now for those who support irish unity than there's been for a very long time. do you feel the unionist cause is under pressure? no, i don't. i am very confident, i'm a confident unionist, what i would say to you is, i'm not a unionist amongst 64 million. this is the issue. the issue is that we have people who don't know what they're talking about. and they're trying to inflame situations. this is going on. i let's be very clear

brexit is a trade deal. it's not a decision about whether we are an officer but the decision about where we are in europe. interestingly, mr hutchinson, sorry to interrupt but you make an interesting point there about you being a unionist amongst 64 million. of course you are including the population of scotland. but brexit has changed a lot of things. brexit has certainly changed the mood in scotland, it seems where according to a consistent slew of opinion polls the majority in of scots don't want to push on into independence. it's change things in scotland, arguably the uk is closer to unraveling than ever before. and people in northern ireland are going to see that too. they're also going to see frankly, the irish republic is doing 0k. it has single market access which northern ireland will not have in their future. so you've got to think hard, haven't you? about what unionism is going to mean? well, stephen, we are thinking there's no question we need

to change things, but you're telling me that the republic works. it was not that long ago that their own economy collapsed. and they hardly got support from europe. and from the uk to keep them afloat? they had no money. they collapsed. the reality is that there's things that need to be done. for instance, do you think people in the south are happy that they don't have the nhs? do you think the people in the south have to pay for education, paying to go to their doctors, have to pay for everything else. stephen, this is a very important point. no listen, you made the point that you believe that... it's obvious that you believe that being in the union is more attractive than any option of unification with the republic of ireland. i get that. but surely, the reality is that with the changing demographics of northern ireland and we now know the

percentage of people in the province, in northern ireland, who describes themselves as protestant is declining quite markedly. demographics suggest that before too long there could be a situation in which a border poll, so called border poll will become relevant. and there will be a democratic vote amongst the people of northern ireland and the republic about whether they want unification. would you accept a result which did say that that's what the people of northern ireland wanted? would you be a democrat or would your unionist identity mean that you could not accept that? no, stephen, look, let's be very clear on this. this is all supposition. there will not be, when there is a border poll, they won't win it. you need to realise people will have aspirations for a united ireland felt up some

will say wrap a green flag around me. the reality is that any pole will have to be handled in a sensible them and not border poll will have to come. at the end of it no matter what it turns out in scotland and northern ireland and republic, what we need to do is we need to remember that there will always be a large minority. and so it's how we handle that large minority. the other thing is, that's what i'm saying. what i'm saying to you is, that we can make all the supposition and we can listen to all of this and we've heard all the stories and i still don't feel we are any closer. from my point of view in terms of unionism, unionism knows that people will be discriminated against. there will be driven out of their homes. and sinn fein at the top of that. that's the republican ideology. the reality is that the people in the republic don't really want that. they don't want sinn fein in government.

they don't want sinn fein telling them either. my view is and i've been very clear, if we were going to a border poll, that we were a large unions and what is it and how do we move forward? let me ask you this before we end. it's for and half decades since you were eight young man with a gun. fighting to defend what you saw as the righteous cause of unionism and loyalism. do you, hand on heart, think that in and other foreign half decades from now, northern ireland will still be in the union? well, i can't speak about 4.5 decades. but i believe that in my lifetime we may come close to it. but i don't believe we will. my view is, and i say this, my view is that i'm a democrat. and we as unionists

are democratic. we need to talk about how we face anything the future. it's a choice of people who live in northern ireland and the rest of the uk about what happens. it's very clear that, you know, structures have been set up and it's very clear there is a referendum that have to be agreed for the people of the republic as well. it's a democratic process and we need to see how we respond to that democratic process. so i will be calling on political leaders to actually tell me what they're going to do if a referendum is called. i am confident they won't want it. billy hutchison, we have to end there. i thank you very much indeed forjoining me from belfast. thank you, stephen. thank you.

hello there. high pressure means a largely dry but rather a chilly start to the new working week with a touch of frost in place. however, a frontal system up to the north—west will eventually change things for some as we head on up through monday. but the morning starts off rather on a chilly note. temperatures down around freezing even a touch below for some. not as cold in the far south with some extra cloud, not as cold in the far west either. in the cloud in the west will roll its way eastwards through the day introducing rain into northern england, wales, the south—west. especially around the coast and over the hills the sunshine through the afternoon across eastern counties of england and perhaps some parts of north—east scotland. windy, particularly towards the north—west. those are the average speeds. the gusts could touch 60 mph for the western isles. turning milder from the west.

it will be a bit of a struggle with those temperatures in eastern areas after such a chilly start. but as we go through monday night into tuesday, that milder air will waft its way right across the british isles. temperatures by tuesday morning, double digits for most of us. still some rain across northern ireland and scotland with quite a lot of cloud elsewhere. as you go through tuesday with this wriggling frontal system, we will see further pulses of rain across northern ireland and scotland. quite a wet day in prospect actually, on tuesday across northern ireland, some heavy rain across western parts of scotland. for england and wales, drier conditions, some spells of sunshine, best of that towards the south and the east. and tuesday will be the mildest day of the week. highs of ii, 12 or 13 degrees. that is set to change because as we move out of tuesday and into wednesday, this wriggling frontal system will finally start to push eastwards. the rain along it will tend to weaken but behind that weather front, a cold front. we open the door to some much colder air which will start to push in from the north—west. the remnants of this front

are likely to linger across south england. perhaps southern coastal counties more generally through the day on wednesday with some patchy rain. some showers in north—west scotland, sunshine in between but temperatures for many stuck in the single digits by this stage. and it stays rather cool by day and chilly by night as we head towards the end of the week. largely dry with some frost and fog in places.

under under this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. i'm sally bundock. preparing for roll—out — the us says it hopes to approve and start distributing a coronavirus vaccine, in less than three weeks time. almost three weeks after the us election, senior republicans urge donald trump to drop his attempts to overturn joe biden‘s victory. the prominent hong kong democracy activist, joshua wong continues to defy beijing — he pleads guilty to all charges, at the trial relating to last year's siege at the police headquarters. god bless hong kong and now was not the time for us