ishaq dar, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. let us begin with your personal status, your legal status. you are a wanted man in pakistan. are you here in london in amazon rainforest in brazil reaches its highest level in a decade, new scientific analysis to escape the judicial process? suggests that the paris climate agreement goals are within not really, i think you must be aware of reach. the tracker study looks the pakistan history. at the latest promises from countries such as china and the us. joe biden has announced when in pakistan over 73 years the rhetoric has nominations for top posts in his senior economic teams. many been used over the last two of the position is going to dictatorships and the current women because of this includes one isn't different. the former head of the central because this regime bank, federal reserve, janet yellen, who could be the first is known to be under us treasury secretary female. the governor of california said a covert orjudicial he may impose tougher martial law. i can prove that there coronavirus restrictions in the is nothing against me. and i have all the evidence. next two days, including a possible stay—at—home order to try to counter a surge in cases i hope that you know was not gavin newsom ‘s as that the prime allegation projections show intensive care against me, my name is not unit emissions are on track to in the panama papers... exceed capacity statewide and let me stop because some people will not follow in great detail. mid—december. so you are saying your name

is not in the panama papers. nontheless, we learned an awful lot from those panama papers published in 2016, time for hardtalk. about monies being stashed away in a foreign bank account. and involves some very top level pakistanis. welcome to hardtalk. and there was reason to believe i'm stephen sackur. that notjust nawaz sharif family but your family too. imran khan won power no, there isn't in pakistan two years ago mention of my family. with a promise to root out corruption and take on the country's i'm not saying there was a specific mention vested interest. of yourfamily but the national accountability bureau decided so how's it going? after the publication of the panama papers well, rising food prices and the covid to look very closely pandemic have left many at yours and your family's pakistanis feeling worse off. interests, assets and accounts. and they found that there while the anti—corruption drive were grave problems has become a political with your accounts. battleground. no, not at all. because you see, i'm sure that you would be privy that my guest today, ishaq at this supreme court direction that set up a joint investigation team. dar, was pakistan's finance minister, a key lieutenant to former prime minister nawaz sharif. now both of those men are trying to rally opposition which is extrajudicial activity which was co—decided. to imran khan. 00:01:54,707 --> 2147483051:37:42,068 but how much credibility 2147483051:37:42,068 --> 4294966103:13:29,430 do they have? and there were two military intelligence members who were virtually governing the other six members of the gic. you see there is a background. i'm actually interested

in what's known in pakistan as the national accountability bureau, which is the main agency of anti—corruption. and they looked very carefully at you and your family's interest as you well know. in september 2017 they concluded that you and your family owned assets "beyond your known sources of income". they said quite specifically, the accused, that is you, acquired assets pecuniary interest resources in his own name and the name of dependence totalling roughly us$6 million. more than 830 million pakistani rupees. is it your contention that the national accountability bureau has no integrity? it has lots its integrity. -- it —— it has lost its integrity along time back. it is an institution which is used against... even say that with respect, sir, when you were a very senior serving government. idid. i held a press conference.

i explained, by the way, this number as per my tax return. a prime allegation against me that was on the basis of which supreme court directed filed a grievance was that i did not file a 20 year tax return in pakistan for the 1981 to 2001. are uk qualified chartered a ccou nta nt never missed deporting when he was here. until 1976. and then in north america two years without any pakistan. this is such a blatant allegation... well, in that case, let's be very open and transparent with each other. i've interviewed many government ministers around the world over the years was that they always say, oh, i'm not responsible over any corruption at all and i believe in transparency. i do. you do. how many properties do you and your family own? it's all in my tax returns. just give me the answer because i don't know. how many properties do you and

yourfamily how many properties do you and your family own? i have my main residence in pakistan which has been taken over by this regime. i haven't got too many properties. how many properties do you and your family have? my my net worth is... how many properties to you and your family have? 0ne. you and your family own one property? yes. so, all of these stories in the pakistani press, about multiple properties by you and your family. property interests overseas including in dubai. and we're sitting in london, do you not own nothing in london? not just you, your family? no, not at all. 0wn nothing? and dubai? dubai? my sons have just one villa. which is owned by them. they're in business for the last 17 years. so when i asked you how many properties you and your family own, you said one, that wasn't strictly true? no, it is strictly true because they are adult 17 years, they are in business. so they are independent of me. you know very well that when the nab looked at your assets they were looking

at you and your family. i have no issue. my family, everything is accounted for. that's exactly true. if all of this is so clear cut, you only owned one property in the entire world, your tax records that have been kept and given to the authorities over the last 20 years... yup. if everything is so crystal clear, why do you not go to pakistan and make this case in a court of law? well, the court of law you know, my lawyers were there, i am here for medical treatments. you've been here for what, the best part of three years? on this medical issue. yeah. yes i am. are you still really suffering? yes, iam. and you couldn't possibly get back to pakistan? well, let's see what's happening in pakistan. where are the human rights? what's happening where dozens of people have been killed. those are human rights abuses. the national accountability bureau have been killed? in the nab many people have died, yes. it's open secret.

you google, you would have all the detail. i can leave detail with you if you want. this institution has been used against opponents. as i said, i... the premise of the entire thing, and whatever my net worth if it is documented in my tax returns and my tax return is not missing. so it is properly accounted for what is the issue? the issue is it is something different. fighting for the supremacy and i have always been fighting for financial... you introduced the name mr sharif. i think we need to talk about mr sharif as well as yourself as a nawaz sharif is also in london, also on medical grounds. manhandled by the nab. manhandled as you say it now nawaz sharif is a convicted criminal. i hope you know that both cases late—night cases in which he is connected. bothjudgements it is been

written that the prosecution has not been able to prove any corruption, any kickback, and he lost to the executive orders and so on. i'm sorry, sir, but it is quite clear that he is a convicted criminal. and again accountability court which works alongside the national accountability bureau found against nawaz sharif. i believe he was given a ten year sentence and that was reduced ultimately to seven for the he was then allowed to come to london on medical grounds. the same medical grounds that brought you to london too. here there is two of you, is in a? and now you and he, you of course used to be his finance minister in the pakistan government. you and he put yourselves forward in leading voices in the opposition in pakistan. demanding early elections and an end to mr and cons government. ——imran khan's government. i ask you what credibility do you think you have

with the pakistani people? the word thing that world has witnessed that it was a stolen election for the up it was a rigged election for the we have experienced all people 2018 servers indicate that in mind would win up the human rights commission in pakistan the dirtiest election everyone knows the election has been stolen from us. with respect, ijust look back at the eu monitors report on that election. they reported some grave concerns about abuses and specific places. not involving just one party several different parties. sure. but the final and ultimate conclusion was that they believe the result was incredible. ——credible. that imran khan's election victory in 2018 was credible. that was the conclusion of the report. but you have read all the reports. the human rights... you can cherry pick the most negative. i'm telling you the eu monitor is a highly respected, look to everything that is happening pakistan and they concluded that imran khan's victory was credible.

no. free and fair election which is the global one. do we have any question on their integrity? look at the report. i don't believe there's ever been an election in pakistan without some abuses. where every single thing was conducted with freedom and integrity. that doesn't work in pakistan. the truth is imran khan has a democratic mandate. he's been in powerfor two years and you are now staying to the pakistani people he must be removed from office. this election has been stolen. it was a rigged election, there was pre—poll rigging. using the nab. during the results was put off of hours. reported 35 seats were rigged and stolen. otherwise he would have never been in government. well, you're a party chooses to say that. i'm simply looking back to michael garland, the chief of the un monitor...

the eu monitoring team who said overall the election result is credible. well, you haven't read the whole report. the whole report of eu chief. what did it say before this last sentence? of course, his conclusion is the most important thing, i think you would agree. maybe you wouldn't. let's move on. let's talk about what your tactics are now. you and nawaz sharif are sending your video links back into pakistan, sometimes to thousands of people, demanding an early end to imran khan government. this is just a month ago nawaz sharif said to thousands of people in punjab, he said that the integrity of the army chief had disappeared. he said that the general was responsible for levering him out of office and rigging 2018, as you've said, this is what nawaz sharif said, directly to the general,

the chief of the army, he said "you packed up our government and you put the nation at the altar of your own wishes. you rejected the people's choice in elections and installed an inefficient, incapable group, leading to economic catastrophe". what an extraordinary thing to say of your country's chief of army. it's a reality. the buck stops at the top. and the deep state is known, what deep state does in pakistan. is it a surprise to you? it is known the world. theyjust gave an interview. and they said what is deep state quoting pakistan as an example. so please, we must be fair to analyse things. the election was stolen, it started off from don leaks the supremacy of democracy and fiscal and transparency. is it wrong? uk has been upholding democracy

and the democratic value. people would think that you are supporting us. let's be clear. you are saying the pakistani military the army in particular are subverting all democratic processes in your country? this is the global report. it's not weak. no, i want to be clear what you're saying. because the pakistani people are listening to this interview and you are condemning the military of your own country as subverting your democracy. we have to talk all the newsreels. it's not all the entire institution. let's creat a difference! it's a wish list, a plan of certain people who enforce an pakistan martial law. so you are saying the army is led by the general who you are it nawaz sharif whose opinion is entirely subverting democracy, is that what you're saying? i want to be clear. what we are saying that if the elections were rigged it is not established

beyond doubt. if the elections were rigged and somebody... it's not me doing that it's the mr sharif had not a problem with the deep state and the institutions he would have been a full—time prime minister. why would he say? let me be clear, you're now alleging that this is entirely unacceptable when your erstwhile boss and very close ally nawaz sharif was working hand in glove with pakistan's military dictator for many years. and suddenly he's decided that the military and the way that they interfere and politics in pakistan is entirely unacceptable. what kind of hypocrisy is that? i disbelieve this analysis. i disagree with you. what i've just said is wrong? maybe evolution process. oh you mean because he was in power now is out of power so he's really angry with the army because they won't work with him? it's not the first time. it's a third time

as prime minister. mr sharif would have been full—time prime minister if he had not got in trouble with the establishment. imran khan may be unpopular in pakistan now but when he heard what nawaz sharif said last month at that rally when he directly targeted the chief of army, imran khan said how dare nawaz sharif point to the general and blame him for what is happening in pakistan when for years mr nawaz sharif polished the boots of a former military dictator. when imran khan said that i dare say he actually had a great deal of sympathy for many pakistanis who know hypocrisy when they see it. i think they probably haven't seen these 21 clips how he had been maligning the military. the military army chief, the intelligence services of pakistan. and not too long before just last year when he was in the united states he gave

a statement that it is the isis the intelligent service which actually was responsible for 0sama bin laden. etc, etc. when he was out of power, when he was in opposition, he had given 21 different statements at different times. he was known as taliban khan. are we talking or wish to discuss this performance are we here to talk whether it is a pure democracy? 0ther oppositions and you have created this movement you want to deliver early elections and see imran booted out of power. but many people even in your own movement are backing away from the targeting of the pakistani military. it has been said it was regrettable that nawaz sharif had named the military chief by name. even his own daughter maryam had to stress at great length

that she was not anti—military. it sounds that nawaz sharif has overstepped the mark. there seems to be confusion. mr nawaz sharif as prime minister or otherwise is not anti military. please, let's be very clear. he blamed certain individuals. you know it stops at the top. the dawn leaks, there is a huge history about that, i'm sure you would be privy to the leaks. we brought out from grey and it was white. if nawaz sharif talks of certain interventions which are against the constitution of pakistan, is it something wrong? let's talk about politics and your message to your own people. we know that pakistani people are suffering right now. food price inflation is soaring. covid—19 is seeing a second surge in your country creating real economic difficulties.

there's going to be barely any growth in the pakistani economy this year. in the midst of all of that, you are creating a new level of political instability demanding that imran call early elections, calling him illegitimate. banging on about the vote rigging, claiming that the army is really in power. do you think that your approach is really helping the interest of the pakistani people? i think you have to renew empire. 2014 we won the election 2013. massive majorities two thirds, almost. 2014, with khan, consequences rigged only as claim. nobody spoke. you've gone back now six years. i'm putting myself in the shoes of a pakistani today who sees rising food prices, political instability geopolitical instability and you wonder whether the opposition sitting in london really have the interest of ordinary pakistani people at heart?

yes, we have the people at heart. that's why we have the movement. this country had witnessed double revenue collection five yea rs at lowest inflation. lowest interest rates. best performing stock market in this year. most stable currency. the highest gdp growth at 5.8%. it's all music. you're western, you know the institutions had all the praise and what was the final report? what did it say? pakistan is going to 620 by 2030. we were striving to bring it even earlier. the bloodshed, extreme terrorism in pakistan. we had improved economic indicators and pakistan. i understand. i'm not suggesting that your personal economic record was bad. in some ways it was good.

listen, i'm just trying to get you to respond to a simple question. pakistan is where it is today. hang on, imran khan has a five—year mandate. he won the election. you have a choice, you have a choice, you cannot you have a choice, you have a choice, you can wait to fight in the next election if you choose to go home, frankly, but at the moment you're still in london. you can either fight at the ballot box during the next election or you can try to undermine imran khan and his government from the sidelines, from here in london and thereby create new economic and political instability. is that the choice you've made? it's not political instability. it's a matter of confidence. it's a matter of confidence, of winning and grounding the economy of pakistan in two years with him before corona mind you, after 1952 pakistan first time had seen negative gdp growth. after 1952 from 5.8% first year this year 0.4 negative.

and there is massive unemployment. he has pushed back 6% of people in the poverty line. he promised to give ten millionjobs. he has made people unemployed, 12 million adding to the unemployment numbers. pakistan is in big trouble. i just wonder if your approach is weakening pakistan you recently, hang on, and on your recently tweeted a message saying that imran khan, and i'm going to quote your words "personified fascism." now imran khan, imran khan has stood out for pakistan's interests in a very tough stand against india and mr modi which you well know. he has also conducted a foreign policy which he's deepening economic ties with china. which is precisely the same policy that you followed. he also is trying to use pakistan's influence it seems to bring the taliban to the peace table in afghanistan. what is it about these policies that you think personifies fascism?

well, i think perhaps we haven't studied or had the time to look into what fascism he is doing. do you stand by that, do you? i do, i do. there is a fascist government in pakistan. you're trying to mobilise tens of thousands of people on the streets in different pakistani cities even when there a covid pandemic. your message is that we must bring khan's government down by the middle of the year and have new elections. you haven't succeeded so far, what is your next move? i think you haven't seen imran khan doing the same. you see medium gathering starting from the 16th of 0ctober. but you haven't seen in the same. in the last six weeks, you haven't seen the gathering, large gatherings by a mark on himself. large gatherings by imran khan himself. what is your next move? 0urultimate aim and goal is supremacy of democracy in pakistan.

the free and fair election which will be transparent and totally acceptable. and that would be the rule of law? the rule of law. do you govern to the rule of law? of course. rule of law and transparency. the constitution has to be all institution has to work within the domain. which has been prescribed in the constitution of the republic of pakistan. i think will be very happy. right now when i tweeted i have no reason right and is the reality for some i can give you... you know, a prime minister who caused the federal agency and gives them names and says go and arrest them. what sort of governor is this? well, we have to end it there. but i do thank you very much indeed for coming into the hardtalk studio. it is a pleasure, it is a pleasure. many thanks.

hello there. we've started this week on a relatively quiet note. quite a lot of grey, gloomy weather around, although scotland didn't fare too badly with some sunshine. for the rest of this week, things are set to turn much colder and a lot more unsettled. as low pressure takes over, we'll see some rain, sleet and snow in some places. we've got this ridge of high pressure building in early on tuesday. fairly strong winds down the east coast. a cold front which spreads southward across the country during the overnight period. a chilly start but bright with some very welcome sunshine across many parts of central southern, eastern parts of england, but cloud will be thickening up again, this time against northern and western areas into the afternoon. it's going to be a chilly day, pretty much wherever you are.

the warmest spots out west and also in the sunny spots in the east could make nine or ten degrees. as we head through tuesday night, it looks like another front will start to push into northern and western areas. this is a cold front. on it there will be outbreaks of rain. quite a lot of cloud and another clear, chilly night in the south—east. the north—west will turn cooler with some blustery showers. as we head through wednesday, this cold front will slowly migrate southwards and introduce much colder air north and west of the uk. very windy as well with gales in the north—west of scotland. it will be bright here. sunshine, blustery showers, heavy across scotland and increasing wintry over the hills. but for england and wales, we'll see quite a bout of cloud with outbreaks of rain, confined to the south—east skies. behind it, it will brighten up here. that cold front clears through as we head on into thursday. low pressure takes over. it's going to be windy, outbreaks of rain — some of which could be quite heavy through thursday — especially through parts of england and wales. southern england and wales will see the heavy strength of the day for that.

could see some gales through the channel as well. further north a bit brighter spells of sunshine, a few showers, there will be wintry, even down to lower levels across scotland as temperatures range from three to around seven degrees, so feeling cold. friday, a big area of low pressure spirals across the country bringing further spells of strong winds and heavy rain. we could see the threat of some sleet and snow across the northern hills, perhaps even down to lower levels at times. there will be a bit of sunshine here and there too. another cold day on the cards for all.

you are with bbc news. the headlines: new scientific and

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