and its nato allies to withdraw all foreign forces from afghanistan by the first of may — in line with last year's us taliban deal. the statement was released before a meeting to debate the future of troops in the islamic republic. nearly 3 million people in texas are without power in sub—zero temperatures, as a huge storm sweeps through the south and east of the united states. at least 20 people have died and thousands of homes have been left without water because of frozen or burst pipes. authorities in the united states have charged three north koreans with conspiring to steal more than $1 billion in cash and crypto—currency from banks and businesses, worldwide. justice department officials say pyongyang's cyberactivities pose a significant threat to the us and its allies.

now on bbc news, it's hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. thousands of indian farmers are keeping up their long—running protest against the modi government's farm law reform. their protest camps on the outskirts of delhi have become a symbol of defiance. but india's populist prime minister has faced down a host of opponents in the past. will this time be any different? my guest is yogendra yadav, leader of the swaraj party and a prominent backer of the farmers' cause. is modi versus the farmers a defining moment for india? theme music plays.

yogendra yadav, in rewari near delhi, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. you are on the coordinating committee of the main group behind the farmers' protest. we have been watching them for the last weeks and months, but it does seem as though right now they may be losing momentum. is that right? not quite. in an extraordinary movement of this kind, given the size, scale, time, you have ups and downs. but remember, we are looking at near—about 100,000 people, farmers camping outside the national capital territory. remember, it's nearly three months now,

so, yes, people come and go, and, yes, the mainstream media would like to imagine that we don't exist any more, but all you have to do is to send your correspondents, farmers are there with a resolve which is unmatched, in numbers, which the country has not seen, in situations which are impossible. we've been through the indian winter, which i admit is nothing compared to the british winter, but if you have to stay out like we did, then it has demonstrated a very unusual resolve, which continues to be there. the government has said that it's suspending the implementation of the three farm laws that you are so upset about, while a committee looks at the detail and perhaps considers adaptation and change. why are you not prepared to give that committee a chance, tell all of the farmers to go home and defuse the tension?

the government has not stayed it as yet. the supreme court has — strangely, without assigning any reason, without assigning even a term limit to say, all right, let's stop for this much period and so on. the government has merely offered, we might stay it for a year and a half, provided there are committees and so on and so forth. but the trouble is, i don't quite understand the logic of one and a half years — this regime is here for three years. we don't know what would happen in a year and a half. one thing that would happen for sure is that farmers will move away. so that doesn't work with the farmers. the reason they are unwilling — the farm associations are unwilling to work with minor tinkering and amendments, which is what the government wants — is because we think the basic intent of these three laws is anti—farmer. you can tweak a law provided the overall intent is right,

provided there are problems in the way it's worded. you can tweak a law, you can amend it, provided you have a problem with one side provision, one additional provision. but if the main intent of the law itself is something you object to, how can you agree to an amendment? what is anti—farmer about the desire to make farming more prosperous? you know better than i that prime minister modi, back in 2016, promised to double farmers' incomes well, he hasn't achieved that yet, but he says this reform is absolutely crucial to delivering on his promise to make farmers substantially better off. i'm glad you remember that promise of the doubling of farmers' income. and, as you know, in reality, the growth has been less than 2%. it was promised that it would be doubled in six years. the fact is, the government is yet to offer, even formal statistics about how much increase has taken place...

but, if i may, mryadav, part of the point is that modi and his team say that there's no way to deliver greater, significant greater prosperity to the farming industry without introducing the market much more thoroughly and completely to agricultural economics. that's precisely why they want to get away from this state—run purchasing system, and allow private sector companies to move in to the purchase of agricultural produce. that's how they would want to present it and the world to believe. the simple fact is that indian agricultural marketing continues to be largely private. the state purchasing quantum of that is actually less than 10%, as per the government's own claims. what the farmers need is better marketing infrastructure. they have been demanding it. the government doesn't respond to it. what the farmers need

is better protection against risk mitigation. the government has to do something about it. they don't respond to it. yeah, they do. they do. the government has said that it guarantees that the price support to ensure a minimum price guarantee for farmers will be maintained in this new system that they want to introduce. that's one of the beautiful—designed lies the government peddles all the time. what the government does is that it officially announces a minimum support price. now, you and i would imagine once the government says, here is a minimum support price the farmers should get, the government would do something about letting them have it. the truth is, and this is an officially admitted truth, that having announced it, the government goes to sleep. 23 crops are given this msp — minimum support price — which is a kind of formal assurance of flow price. but in reality, not more than two or three are actually

procured, purchased. government of india officially admits that only 6% of farmers benefit from this provision. 94% don't. what kind of a guarantee is that? and actually, steve, that's exactly what we are asking for. we are simply saying, don't give us the gift that you want to give us — give us the gift that we want. namely, you declare a minimum support price — just give it to us, that's all we are... hang on. you seem to be in the bizarre position of protecting and defending the status quo. and the status quo for the last generation or so has been really bad for many, many farmers. and we know that, not least because more than 10,000 a year commit suicide, living in absolute poverty and rural misery. why are you intent on defending a system which clearly doesn't work? that's not fair on the farmers'

union, steve, because we, the farmers' associations, actually have been demanding reform year after yea r. we actually proposed two laws. so we don'tjust oppose. in 2018—19, we placed before the indian parliament two pieces of law demanding exactly the kind of reforms that we need. of course indian agriculture needs reform. it needs structural reforms because indian farmers live in economic crisis, ecological crisis, which is turning into an existential crisis. so, yes, we need something to be done. but this is not the something we wanted. this is not the something that is going to benefit the farmers. this is something which not a single farmer union ever asked for... but isn't this really about where india is going, about the very soul of india today? because narendra modi's whole proposition is, the country needs fundamental economic reform. and to quote the bjp

general secretary, whom we've had on this show, ram madhav, said recently, "fear of the market is inherent in the psyche of many societies that were exposed to socialistic protectionist practices for far too long." that's a mind—set that modi and his team are determined to get rid of. and may i say, perhaps it's a mind—set that you and some others at the head of this farmers' movement are still defending. that could be an impression from outside, and it would be a pity if the soul of india were to be reduced to markets. i really thought the ruling party, mr ram madhav and others, would find something better to anchor the soul of india. as for the socialistic. .. well, to be fair, that was my — that was my interpretation of how deep this argument is. he didn't use that phrase. but it does seem to me that, as i said at the very beginning, modi versus the farmers is an existentially important moment for india.

and i'm just trying to get a sense of the vision you have for the india that you're currently fighting for. we have been saying quite clearly that we want minimum state support. if you call it socialistic, in that case, european union is socialistic, in that case us is socialistic. i do not know of any country in the world that does not offer support to its agriculture. at the moment, and ijust want to place it on record, an 0ecd study has shown that indian state has offered negative subsidy — mind my words — we have offered negative subsidy to our farmers over the last two decades or so. so the idea that there is some socialistic state offering great things to the farmers, all this is myth. this is textbook economics, in reality. all right... we need more markets, we need protected markets, we need some minimum assured prices, and after that, we want free market to flow.

right. well, let's get to tactics then, and where you go from where you are today, cause it seems to me something very important happened on january 26th, which i believe in india is republic day, but more to the point, this year was a day which saw really serious clashes between police in delhi, right in the centre of delhi, the red fort governmental area of delhi, and a host of protesters, who did appear, according to the pictures i saw, to be intent on violence. now, how damaging was that? because it was seen all over india by many, many millions of people. how damaging was it to your cause? this doesn't make for good pictures at all. but let's begin the day. this was the day when nearly 300,000 to 400,000 tractors marched into the capital, according to the programme we had announced. and we said this would be a celebration of indian republic. mind you, every single of those

protesters was carrying indian nationalflag, which is what we had mandated. there was a standard route. the route was broken. the police says it was broken because we were indisciplined. every evidence so far points out to things other than that, that the police allowed them to go to different routes. and the most amazing thing no—one asks, because the symbols from lal qila have been flashed — this is the place where the prime minister of india addresses the nation from on the 15th of august, so a very sacred place. the police says, you entered lal qila. the question that everyone wants to ask is, how is it that on the republic day, on a day when everyone expected, feared something to happen, hundreds, possibly thousands of people were allowed inside that particular sacred place?

how is it that, in the presence of police — and you can see them sitting on the chairs — there's a long bbc footage of about an hour or so, police sitting, watching, allowing all this to happen? well, i'm sorry, but i'm a little confused about what point you're making, �*cause indian government officials have drawn parallels with what happened in the assault, the mob assault on the us capitol. they've said that what happened onjanuary 26th in delhi was equally unacceptable. and i don't know if you're being misquoted, but i saw a quote from you on the press trust of india website, you saying, "i feel ashamed of the way things proceeded and i take responsibility for it." so was that a misquote or... no. ..do you feel a sense of shame? this is completely unacceptable — for this to happen on the red fort, on the republic day, is unacceptable. so you do feel a sense of shame? i'm sorry, ijust want to get very clear here because, again, indians across the country are going to be listening to your words.

that was shameful, was it? so how do you ensure that it never, ever happens again? what do you do with the extremists in your midst? i'm saying quite clearly what happened was shameful. every indian would feel ashamed of what happened, and we farmers unions have said we did not approve of it, we did not allow this, but we are willing to take moral responsibility because what happened was wrong. we are also saying, would the police please look into how it happened? would we actually have a public documentation of who was allowed, why were they allowed the way they went, why is it that someone was allowed to use a public address system, someone with known separatist proclivities was allowed to be there and get out quietly? there are lots and lots of questions that need to be answered.

well, some of the questions are... yes, i understand, mryadav. some of the questions are being laid at your door. i understand there's a police investigation and that you have been named as one of those that the police want to investigate. what is happening with that? well, the police has come up with a very general charge sheet saying all the leaders need to be investigated. we're saying, fine, let's investigate, let's find out. let's get to specifics. and this is not for the first time, steve. this is a standard pattern in india for the last couple of years. you have a protest. the police uses first the media to defame the protesters, then they send goons protected by the police — this is what happened twice already — and then there are all kinds of cases charge—sheeted. so criminalising of dissent is not something new. this is the path being used once again. you call it the criminalisation of dissent. again, you are very well aware that the government and some of its media backers have quite specifically said that

the farmers' movement has been taken over by those seeking to achieve their objective of a khalistan — that is a sikh separatist movement — and also those who, from outside the country, are seeking to pursue an islamist agenda. as best you know, is either that khalistan political objective or the islamist agenda, part of what motivavates some people currently sitting in your protest camps? nothing can be more ridiculous than that. those who are sitting in these camps are people whose sons and in some cases daughters are serving the country on the borders. remember, the farmers are mostly from the state of punjab and haryana and areas close by. these are areas that contribute maximum numbers to the indian army. and we have witnessed, in the course of all this,

that soldiers who died, their parents are here. so to call them... and this is not something that began on the 26th of january. right from the beginning, the government has been intent on finding ways of tarring the movement. it began by saying, these are not farmers, these are paid agents. then they said, these are agents of political parties. then they said khalistanis. then they said everything. but farmers' movement has taken a very clear stand. and, since you are interested in what i had to say, on the 14th of january, there was a declaration by someone to say, go and fly khalistani flag on the india gate on 26th — we'll reward you. and i went public and said, these are enemies of the movement. we openly, publicly condemned them. farmers' movement have given a call for social boycott of someone who raised a flag other than the indian tricolour in red fort. i referred to this as maybe an existential moment for india. right now, it still looks as though prime minister modi commands the support of a clear majority of the indian people,

including people who have watched the standoff with the farmers' movement. if you look at opinion polling, his approval ratings are still high. it still looks as though the bjp is in a very strong position to do well in regional elections in april. how can you explain the popularity, continuing, of narendra modi? in my previous birth, i was a technical pollster, so i would resist the temptation of getting into polling and suchlike. but i would simply say, look, the larger question of his popularity is besides the point in this particular instance. we're speaking of one particular segment, the largest segment, namely the farmers of india, who are saying, mr modi, you've given us a gift that we never wanted — why

don't you give us what we want? and mr modi seems to be saying, no, now that i have gifted it, you'd better accept it. and my own sense as a former pollster, as someone who used to have something to do with opinion polling, is that over the last two or three months, ever since this agitation has unfolded, farmers may not understand the technicalities of law, but the broad impression that's seeping down is that mr modi is up to something big, something bad for the farmers, at the behest of some corporate houses. that cannot possibly contribute to his overall image — though damaging his image is not our overall objective. we just want this to be settled. we want to go back home. we want to be able to say, well, the government listened to us, that's what i'm focused on. my focus is not really on how to damage mr modi in the coming elections... no, but the problem is that, as you've just outlined it,

you're saying the farmers have some real leverage and power in this country — but the truth is, farming is now responsible for only 15% of indian gdp. if one looks at the s&p�*s latest predictions for the indian economy next year, it's... even post—pandemic, it's predicted it may grow by up to 10%. modi is delivering for millions and millions of indian people. and i wonder whether you are overestimating the power of the farming movement to change the dynamic. just to give you numbers... in democracy, while gdp numbers matter, the other number that matters is simple numbers. so farming employs about 48% of indian working population. in rural india, it employs about 57% of the population. that's a number i would imagine a politician would be concerned about. whether mr modi's delivering? now, that's a very

big question. the question of 10% growth, it all depends on what the previous year was. indian agriculture has held up, not because of mr modi, not despite mr modi. that's a different thing altogether. but i really do not think you would get a professional economist who would say mr modi has delivered on the economy, but... well, 0k. so, a final thought, then, cos this isn't just about economics. it's about the entire modi mission, which involves a commitment to hindu nationalism, i would say — many indians would say, more importantly. you are from a family where your own father was so keen on the secular principle in your country that he actually originally named you salim — even though you're from a hindu family, he wanted you to have a muslim name as a symbol of that unitarian approach. do you believe that mr modi

is changing india in a way that would make any such gesture in the future almost unthinkable to most indian people? the country is profoundly — and, it seems, permanently — changing in the modi era. that's the larger challenge. the story you referred to is about my father, who actually watched his own father being butchered by a muslim mob, and then he turned around and said, no, i'm not going to hate muslims. i'm going to name my son... i'm going to give my son muslim name. now, that's not about me — that's about my father. that's about. . .the spirit of india. that's about mahatma gandhi. that's. .. yes, it's a fascinating story, but it's a story of an india that no longer exists. that's what people like me worry about. when we look at the bigger picture, it's the idea of india that's being trampled upon. what we are witnessing is nothing short of a dismantling of the indian republic, brick by brick. and that, for me, is the biggest challenge the country faces.

that's where i see people like me playing a role. and yet, if i may say so, just to finish — the truth is, narendra modi wins elections and your swaraj — very secular party — doesn't win any seats, regionally or nationally. that's my point. that's the india of today. swaraj india, my own party, may not be the best measure of the resistance that india can offer, but i am absolutely clear india is not a nation of one race or one religion. india is an idea. the idea of diversity, of democracy, of development for the last person. that idea shall triumph. all right. people like me may perish. we may have to pay some cost. you cannot defend your republic and not pay any cost. but india, the idea

of india, shall triumph. the idea of india is much bigger than its current rulers or possibly the current dissenters. yogendra yadav, we have to end there, but i do thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. hello. quite a lot of wind and rain in the forecast, but some sunshine too. at least it is very mild out there. thursday is going to be quite a mixed bag, so we might have a spell of very heavy rain, but there's also some sunshine on the way. you can see the weather fronts gathering out towards the southwest. they are going to be

moving across the uk. there's another one deep out in the atlantic. that's on the way for friday, and that will bring more heavy rain and strong winds. so here is the first bout of wet and windy weather through the early hours. the weather front crossing england and wales, also some heavy rain there wrapping around the centre of the low—pressure, close to northern ireland and scotland. obviously, very mild — between 5—9 celsius across the uk overnight. that weather front will be moving into western parts of the uk through thursday morning. it will be accompanied by some very gusty winds across cornwall, devon, parts of wales as well. this is where it will be around eight o'clock in the morning just about moving through bristol, parts of the midlands, the northwest of england as well, into parts of western scotland. this is where the centre of the low is. winds actually not too strong in scotland. they're slightly stronger towards the south here. and then the rain will reach the east coast by the time we get to around lunchtime, and then after that, actually, the skies clear, and it's going to be a bright day

but a blustery one. gusts of wind in excess of 40, maybe approaching 50 mph in places, and also plenty of showers out towards the west. so suffice to say it is going to be a mixed bag on thursday. 9—10 celsius — it's going to feel chilly in the gusts of wind. here's thursday night, into friday. that next area of low pressure heading our way. more weather fronts. a lot of isobars here, so that means some strong winds. in fact, a prolonged spell of strong winds out towards the west. gales around these coasts here — 50 mph at least, maybe even 60 in places. breezy inland, too. the best of the weather, i think, on friday, will be towards the east, say, hull, norwich, london as well. but once the rain sets in and out towards the west, it could last well into the weekend. now, we were promising some milder weather. it is heading our way. saturday and through sunday, milder air streaming straight out of the canaries. so that does mean that temperatures come sunday could get up to around 16 or 17 celsius across the southeast.

this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world: three north korean computer programmers are charged with conspiring to steal more than $1 billion in global hacking attacks. facebook blocks users in australia from sharing or viewing news content, in a dispute with the government over planned social media laws. at least 21 people have been killed and millions left without power, as a huge storm sweeps across the state of texas. hours away from the red planet — will nasa perseverence rover�*s finally discover if there is life on mars?