you're watching bbc news is now time for hardtalk. you're watching bbc news is now time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. the cost of covid can be counted in so many different ways. first in the ledger is the mounting death toll. next comes the economics cause, jobs lost, businesses ruin. and then there is the disastrous impact on culture. in much of the world we cannot gather to enjoy the art live. the creative world we used to know may be hard to revive. my guest is one of the uk's top live music promoters, harvey goldsmith. has the cultural cost of covid been ignored?

harvey goldsmith in london, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. back in november you said this, you said almost 50% of events agencies such as your own, i guess, do not expect to survive beyond the end of this year. and if it goes to february and beyond, that is where we are now, 75% won't survive if events have not resumed by then. so here we are at that doomsday month you were talking about. i mean, you're still around, you're still trying to keep your business afloat. do you think you were exaggerating a tiny little bit? not really, not at the time. and i'm not exaggerating now. i mean, we are all

of us, we are at our wits end because we can't see a pathway to go forward. it's very hard to get through to government how our industry actually works. i'm very fearful that we will have lost most of the summer with all outdoor activities which would affect a huge amount of our people. and quite a few of them will actually go out of business. there's only so long you can keep this going. you're a promoter and a producer. obviously, you need venues to put your gigs, your concerts on and i'm just wondering what you are hearing about the viability of some of the venues that you have used in the past, and want to use in the future. like us in wanting to produce and promote, the venues are desperate to open. again, they are all hanging on by their bootstraps. so there is a formula. and what we've been pushing

government to do is while we've got this hiatus. until we know when life can restore in some form or other let's prepare for it. and at the moment, not enough work has been done to allow us to come up with a formula to prepare for it. and that's a bit disappointing. if we're going to do any touring or any large shows of any size we need insurance. and at the moment the insurance world have just walked away from us. so we are pleading with the government to set up a bond as they've done in the film and television industry. which we will contribute, we're going to pay the premiums for it but they need to set up a bond and push the insurers and then become the underwriter, if you like. so we can at least get some cover should shows be cancelled once the guidance, a fair amount of our money is paid up before the show takes place. why is the government can listen to harvey goldsmith? you not a very long

ago went on the record calling the government stance on bailing out culture and the arts in the uk as appalling and disgraceful. so maybe you don't have much credit in the bank with the government. they put up more than a billion pounds to try and rescue culture and used still said it wasn't enough. i didn't say it wasn't enough i said it wasn't going in the right direction. which i don't believe it is. we are not the subsidised arts. we never have been, we've never asked for subsidies before. what we are on is a survival trail. and unfortunately, what happened was, the secretary of state is using this as an excuse to say we taking care of the industry when they haven't. they haven't even started. so there is a long way to go. but going back to those key issues, we want to

if you like, that is covid negative. and we want to create the tools to make that pathway and then we have to cross them out and figure out how to deal with it. but we haven't got off base one yet to figure out how to make a safe bubble to allow people to go back to venues in the normal way. socially distancing just doesn't work, i'm afraid. it doesn't work on an emotional level and it certainly doesn't work on a financial level. the government has offered you a bit of a signpost now. because in the last couple of days they indicated that the very rapid testing that is now technologically possible could be used precisely to help music venues, live concerts, theatres, as well, to reopen. and offer tests to customers as they arrive at the venue. is that the pathway that your industry ca n follow ?

without a doubt. but we've been asking for this since november. all we ask the government to do, we won't give us a date, we said let's work towards a target work backwards and say, "what is it we need to do to have a safe, healthy show that can work financially and emotionally?" and we couldn't get any engagement. they kept putting it off. we want to prepare, we cannot be told on tuesday yes, you can go back to work on saturday. it's impossible. we need four months. because we have so much extra work to do in order one, to figure out with government and the health departments what is the system and the protocols that we need to do? what is the sanitisation level, what do we do about ventilation, are the testing apparatus there, apparatus there to do 2a hours, how do we do it, etc. of course the more the vaccine penetrates the better it is for everybody. i'm just wondering to myself,

why should the public watching this, both in the uk and around the world really care if madonna of the rolling stones or any of the other acts you've worked within the past, if they can't do it they tours around europe and world because of covid, does that really matter? we don't doubt that they'll still be around to come back when covid is over. so why are you getting so exercised about this? music is embedded in our lives today. and it's a very important cultural aspect as it has been for ever. it isn'tjust popular music we are talking about, it's all forms of music from classical to opera, to including the arts, as well. that includes theatre and ballet and so on. so we are all in the same boat. and if you'll extend that out that also deals with the hospitality industry. all sorts of events, conferences and lord knows what else. our section of the industry

alone is £5.8 billion to the country. we are at the world leaders and entertainment. we are world leading producers of entertainment. and there is a thirst in the country for people that want to see it. and it shows, interestingly enough, because all of those ticket holders who were offered refunds for shows that were cancelled last year or this year, some of which are now being moved to 22 are still hanging on to their tickets because they want to see their heroes. they want to go, they want to be entertained. it's a part of — of an embedded in our culture. and let me ask you this, as i said, i don't think there's much doubt that the big superstar as you work with are going to survive this and they will be around when covid finally isn't affecting your

business the way it is now. the real issue is for the up and comers, the young people who are musicians who are young actors, who are trying to make it in the arts and found they have little or no income over the last 12 months. you are very wired into the culture sector. what are you hearing about what young performers, young creators are doing? are they giving up and leaving or are they hanging on? well, of course there are people giving up and leaving because they don't have a choice. there are a lot of singing delivers from amazon today. there are all sorts of people that are desperately grabbing whatever work they can get their hands on. they are journeying you is musicians, members of orchestras, wage musicians from lots of bands in up—and—coming people who can't just sit around. they are not getting enough subsidising income let alone any real income in order to stay afloat. how many of those we've lost, only time will tell. we certainly have some. of course the top end of the business will always survive because they can. but it's the middle

and the bottom end of the business, the up—and—coming acts who have really found it so difficult to get through this period. and more particularly, all of the associated people around them. such as the crew, the production managers, the tour managers etc, etc. who all work with those artists. they have no work whatsoever. you very passionately said to me a short while ago in this conversation that your business is not about subsidy, it's not about state support. but the industry right now is in such dire straits, some people are saying it's time for the government to give direct financial hand—outs to artists, creators and performers so that they can continue to do what they love to do. even in this time of hardship and crisis. philosophically speaking, do you think that works? just giving government subsidy and support to the arts

and artists, is that a route to maintain creativity or is that really antithetical to what the arts are all about? well that's an interesting point. most of the people that i refer to are in terrible strait. and if they can have help they will gladly take it. however, if you cast your mind back and look at the culture and arts traditionally, it's always been the survival of the sufferers. there the ones to get through, they are the ones with the mission, they are the ones it has something to say and they'll get through by hook or by crook. so parts of it will work without subsidy. i'm only saying that

as far as the contemporary music business is concerned and the way that the business is structured from the venues to the promoters and producers, they have never been subsidised. and they're not looking for subsidy now. they are just looking for survival. subsidised artists are another animal. what i objected to and what my angst against the government was and continues to be and i go way back with arguments with government. they consistently bring on people to regulate and operate in our severe who have no knowledge of the business. we've can build a town in a week. you're referring to events like glastonbury and things like that? well, yes large concerts, large outdoor shows. we do that for a living. we moved hundreds of people and dozens of trucks on a daily basis across the world. we work all over the world. we know what we're doing. and yet the government hasn't reached out to any of the expertise in our business ones.

——0nce. they put a committee together to dispense this mythical 1.57 billion pounds of the usual good great and the useless. and i go back to the millennial exhibition when i was asked in the last six months to take it over and be used as the fall guy, which is that i wouldn't do. they did exactly the same. they do it every single time. all right. so follow the eight so far we focused on their performers, the creators, the promoters and agents and people like you all that raft of people that depend on the creative sector. what we haven't really talked about is the mindset of the public, the customer, the concertgoers. you known them for five decades. do you think people when they are allowed to as you say, it's about getting the rapid testing going, rolling out the vaccine. but when the government tells you and indeed the concertgoers that it is safe to go back to these mass audience events, do you think people will really want to? i think once people feel

confident that every effort has been made to create a safe environment they will come back in droves. of course the very large events, 50,000 capacity upwards are few and far between. the average events range between the two to 5000 mark and arenas up to 15,000, or20,000 people. and people will feel comfortable. we know they feel comfortable because there is a lot of research done with people particularly by the ticketing companies. and the results have been actually remarkable. 95% of people polled said yes, they would go to a concert tomorrow morning if they could. so there is no question about it. it is factored into peoples dna today that is the counterbalance to their daily world that they can go and be entertained and get emotionally driven into an event and activity. even with the mask on?

because were led to believe that some of these rules at mass events might still involve mask wearing. harvey, can you seriously imagine a rock and roll concert with thousands of people all gathered together and they are all wearing their masks? yeah, i think will be pretty good, actually. as you know, in the far east, a lot of the countries in the far east, people have been wearing masks for probably way back sense sars and before that. people are quite used to wearing masks. they don't object to it theyjust do it. for some reason or other in england and other parts of europe people object to the principle of wearing masks. i'm looking forward to having mask with bruce springsteen written on it or the rolling stones or beyonce, whatever. we could sell great mask to people. why not?

there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever. you're a man who met never misses an opportunity. we got that on the record. why are you and some of the artist you work within the past including, some of the biggest names in business like eltonjohn, roger daltrey and others, all up in arms saying the government has disgracefully let musicians down in the way that they've handled the rules on musicians travelling through europe post—brexit? the british people voted for brexit so what exactly are you complaining about? it's very simple. in the same way that they have never come use the expertise that exists within our community to ask the question, when the brexit deal was done, which many of us were in favour of nad i, for whatever reason, brexiteer having spent a year going

to brussels on behalf of their industry and watching the waste in the disgraceful way that they run the business. what the government didn't do is they didn't ask our business what we need. and the two things that we need is one, passage from country to country and there is a, it's called a cabotage which means if where driving from one country to the next country we are only allowed to pick up and drop off twice. and then we have to take our trucks with we don't have a problem with the because in the paperwork rest of the world we already use carnies so it would just be extra pages. but the cabotage issue which was something to do with preventing russians doubling or over using their truck deliveries in europe hasn't been sorted out by our government. and the second thing is the visa issue.

which is the paperwork of a mountain of extra work which needs to be done because at the moment, we have no visas to work in europe and there is no reciprocal arrangement. i am sure that that will get sorted out but unfortunately, it hasn't been. it should've been. 0ur industry is worth three times as much as the fishing industry and they spent three years dealing with that. with us, they didn't even look at it. right now is it true say that musicians are not going to be able to perform in europe as they used to and that european musicians are not going to be able come and perform in the uk as they used to? is that their reality of where brexit is impacting the arts business, the music industry right now?

yes. that's absolutely correct. we should be excluded from it because it's got nothing to do with the main reason why they created a cabotage. it's an anomaly thatjust needs to be sorted out and somebody from the government needs to get to the ec and just get it done. last question for you, which is really about the way in which your business is changing. and maybe covid hasjust hastened some changes. you were saying long before covid that actually the era of the festival maybe coming to an end. it may have peace. it may have peaked. you suggested that the music business, one generating the huge charismatic stars who could command a vast stadium or a big festival audience in the way that they used to. so maybe, maybe something profound is happening. maybe online streaming is going to replace some of the live experience. maybe people like you who in in the past made all of your living out of the live event are going to have to accept

that in the 21st century cultural demands, cultural experience is changing. and maybe changing long after covid has left us behind. that's a very good point. there is no question that streaming is now live and on boarder works. there is an issue with sounds because listening to a stream concert on phone, i don't care what you got for a phone is still clap, it's awful. the quality of sound is not good. more importantly, the experience. we are a tribal people. humans are tribal. they like being together. they like sharing experiences. you cannot beat that, ever. but there is no doubt that going forward to streaming will become an integral part of an artist torres lee not touring programme where they will stream their shows as they go along for some some artists have already been doing

it for some time. but it will become much more prevalent. there will be a change. we do have a difference, that's good because our witness is constantly evolving and changing. and so it should. that may be the very big concerts, the gargantuan festivals and events, if you like. like the glastonbury is an anomaly will start to wane because there aren't those global, huge stars that they used to be. it's have a different nature and so it should be and it will change. but underneath that, if you look at the expansion of literary festivals, they are now hundreds of them. ten years ago i think there were two. and so the same with music. in a smaller area five to 15,000 events of mixed music of other activities that go together to make a cultural experience, they are developing much faster than they were before. and things are changing. we are in a constantly

evolving world. you've intrigued me with that answer. why do you think it is in your opinion that the music business isn't throwing up those hugely charismatic megastars like you referred to in the past? at the unbelievable charisma freddie mercury had a one get say mickjagger as well. why is it do you think in your opinion that these sorts of megastars aren't being produced today? partly lethargy.. i think partly because the youth today, of the more sophisticated countries of gotten a bit lazy, i think. i'm surprised that more artists haven't come up to fight really hard very during the pandemic. i'm really surprised that there aren't better songs being written. and that's the way it is. i think it is a bit of lethargy. but we are changed. there are lots and lots of

different forms of music that are coming out today, we are very, spread very wide. the final reason actually is due to technology. today you can hear or listen to anything. there's a thousand different types of music you could pick up literally in the stroke of a button. and at what used to be, when we built the huge, giant acts, the dinosaur acts of today, if you like. it's because it was narrowcast. because everybody focused on listening to that album. divide the album and listening to the cd, etc. and they focused it because they were given information by a very few areas of the medium. today it's so wide, and so out there that there is no need for those huge acts.

but when you look at the streaming figures, there are artist that are streaming in the billions. so therefore something new is happening and something different is happening. and i'm thrilled about it personally because that's the way it all evolves. harvey goldsmith, it's been a pleasure having you on hardtalk. thank you very much indeed. thank you. hello there. wednesday is set to be an exceptionally mild day, particularly where you get to see a little bit of brightness, but even if you keep cloud and outbreaks of rain. that was the picture in the scottish borders during tuesday. there's more rain to come on wednesday courtesy of this pipeline of cloud ploughing in from the southwest. first part of the day

still brings met office amber warnings in force for parts of central and southern scotland. rain also affecting north west england and wales. some patchy rain elsewhere. a few clear breaks, too, but a very mild start to the day. quite a windy start as well, although the winds will be easing just a little as we go through the day. we'll see those outbreaks of rain continuing across parts of northwest england, parts of northwest wales, heading into southern and central scotland. a little bit brighter for parts of northern ireland and certainly for the north of scotland, some sunny spells here, and where it stays dry and fairly bright with hazy sunshine for central and eastern parts of england, temperatures will get all the way up to 15, 16 or 17 degrees. as we head through wednesday night into thursday, this band of cloud and increasingly light and patchy rain will sink southeastward across england and wales. clearer skies behind with some showers. 0vernight lows between five and 10 degrees. as this weather front lingers in the southeast corner during thursday, it will continue to bring cloud and some outbreaks of rain.

but for the most part, thursday, actually, not a bad looking day — some good spells of sunshine. the winds will be a little lighter, particularly down towards the south. still quite breezy further north where there will be some showers, which mayjoin together into slightly longer spells of rain across northern scotland at times. temperatures down a little bit on wednesday's values, but still above where they should be at this time of year. into friday, there could be fog patches around first thing, particularly for central and southern parts of the uk. the odd spot of rain just skipping across the far north of scotland, but otherwise, a dry day. that early fog lifting to leave some spells of sunshine, and top temperatures between ten and 12 degrees. then, as we head into the weekend, high pressure will be firmly in charge of the weather. frontal systems maybe just grazing close to northern scotland, perhaps northern ireland, giving a little bit of rain here, but generally, the weekend will be drier with lighter winds. the nights, though, will be quite chilly, and that could lead to some

patches of fog.

this is bbc news. i'm mike embley with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. golfing legend tiger woods crashes his car in los angeles. he's undergoing emergency surgery for multiple injuries. the interior was more or less... the cushion to survive what otherwise would have been a fatal crash. us security officials in charge of defending the us capitol during last month's riot blame intelligence failures. these criminals came prepared for wet — these criminals came prepared for war. they came with their own— for war. they came with their own radio _ for war. they came with their own radio system to co—ordinate the attack — own radio system to co—ordinate the attack and climbing gear and other equipment to defeat the capital's security features. i am sickened by what i witnessed that day. the uk prime minister confirms that the case for so—called �*vaccine

passports�* is being considered.