lose a think... if ultimately you lose a court _ think... if ultimately you lose a court case, _ think... if ultimately you lose a court case, what would have been the optimal— court case, what would have been the optimal time to concede that taking everything into account, the point at which _ everything into account, the point at which the government should have considered _ at which the government should have considered this case, was not the sist considered this case, was not the 31stof_ considered this case, was not the 31st of october. if you're going to make _ 31st of october. if you're going to make this — 31st of october. if you're going to make this argument, it is much more credible _ make this argument, it is much more credible to _ make this argument, it is much more credible to make it, it is still not right— credible to make it, it is still not right to — credible to make it, it is still not right to make it in my view but it would _ right to make it in my view but it would be — right to make it in my view but it would be much more credible to make it on would be much more credible to make it oh the _ would be much more credible to make it oh the 6th _ would be much more credible to make it on the 6th of december then it would _ it on the 6th of december then it would on — it on the 6th of december then it would on the 31st of october. that is would on the 31st of october. that must— would on the 31st of october. that isr'ust my— would on the 31st of october. that isjust my view. | would on the 31st of october. that is just my view— isjust my view. i appreciate you acuidin isjust my view. i appreciate you guiding me _ isjust my view. i appreciate you guiding me on _ isjust my view. i appreciate you guiding me on the _ isjust my view. i appreciate you guiding me on the question. - i wasn't guiding you, i was giving my answer— i wasn't guiding you, i was giving my answer to the question. roddy dunlo my answer to the question. roddy dunlap says. _ my answer to the question. roddy dunlap says. it — my answer to the question. roddy dunlop says, it makes _ my answer to the question. roddy dunlop says, it makes little - my answer to the question. roddy dunlop says, it makes little sense i dunlop says, it makes little sense to continue — dunlop says, it makes little sense to continue to _ dunlop says, it makes little sense to continue to defend _ dunlop says, it makes little sense to continue to defend the - to continue to defend the indefensible. _ to continue to defend the indefensible. now, - to continue to defend the - indefensible. now, previously, you spoke _ indefensible. now, previously, you spoke atrout— indefensible. now, previously, you spoke about the _ indefensible. now, previously, you spoke about the interests - indefensible. now, previously, you spoke about the interests of- indefensible. now, previously, you spoke about the interests of the i indefensible. now, previously, you. spoke about the interests of the two women _ spoke about the interests of the two women in _ spoke about the interests of the two women in this— spoke about the interests of the two women in this and _ spoke about the interests of the two women in this and i— spoke about the interests of the two women in this and i absolutely- spoke about the interests of the two| women in this and i absolutely agree with you. _ women in this and i absolutely agree with you. and — women in this and i absolutely agree with you, and here's— women in this and i absolutely agree with you, and here's what _ women in this and i absolutely agree with you, and here's what he - women in this and i absolutely agree with you, and here's what he goes. women in this and i absolutely agree | with you, and here's what he goes on to saw _ with you, and here's what he goes on to saw the _ with you, and here's what he goes on to say. the upside _ with you, and here's what he goes on to say. the upside to _ with you, and here's what he goes on to say. the upside to such _ with you, and here's what he goes on to say. the upside to such an - to say. the upside to such an eventuality, _ to say. the upside to such an eventuality, the _ to say. the upside to such an eventuality, the procedure i to say. the upside to such an - eventuality, the procedure would

simply— eventuality, the procedure would simply be — eventuality, the procedure would simply be reset. _ eventuality, the procedure would simply be reset, safeguards - eventuality, the procedure wouldi simply be reset, safeguards could eventuality, the procedure would - simply be reset, safeguards could be put in _ simply be reset, safeguards could be put in place — simply be reset, safeguards could be put in place to— simply be reset, safeguards could be put in place to minimise _ simply be reset, safeguards could be put in place to minimise the - simply be reset, safeguards could be put in place to minimise the risk- simply be reset, safeguards could be put in place to minimise the risk of. put in place to minimise the risk of a further— put in place to minimise the risk of a further challenge _ put in place to minimise the risk of a further challenge to _ put in place to minimise the risk of a further challenge to the - put in place to minimise the risk of a further challenge to the renewed i a further challenge to the renewed investigation _ a further challenge to the renewed investigation. wouldn't— a further challenge to the renewed investigation. wouldn't it - a further challenge to the renewed investigation. wouldn't it have - a further challenge to the renewed i investigation. wouldn't it have been tletter— investigation. wouldn't it have been better for— investigation. wouldn't it have been better for the — investigation. wouldn't it have been better for the two— investigation. wouldn't it have been better for the two women _ investigation. wouldn't it have been better for the two women if- investigation. wouldn't it have been better for the two women if you - investigation. wouldn't it have been better for the two women if you had followed _ better for the two women if you had followed that — better for the two women if you had followed that advice? _ better for the two women if you had followed that advice? so _ better for the two women if you had followed that advice? 50 ultimately, with everything _ followed that advice? 50 ultimately, with everything we _ followed that advice? 50 ultimately, with everything we know _ followed that advice? 50 ultimately, with everything we know now, - followed that advice? 50 ultimately, with everything we know now, you l with everything we know now, you could _ with everything we know now, you could certainly make that case, but on the _ could certainly make that case, but on the 31st — could certainly make that case, but on the 31st of october, and around about— on the 31st of october, and around about that, — on the 31st of october, and around about that, and let me just quote the last— about that, and let me just quote the last paragraph of it, all of that— the last paragraph of it, all of that is— the last paragraph of it, all of that is however presently hypothetical, a final decision would require _ hypothetical, a final decision would require the information discussed above _ require the information discussed above. this note is simply provided to ensure _ above. this note is simply provided to ensure the main decision makers are fully— to ensure the main decision makers are fully consulted in advance of friday's — are fully consulted in advance of friday's consultation. friday's consultation looked at the whole thing _ consultation looked at the whole thing and decided actually there was a credible _ thing and decided actually there was a credible argument that could be made _ a credible argument that could be made so— a credible argument that could be made. so you are sitting here with, yes, a _ made. so you are sitting here with, yes, a weakness in the case that hadn't _ yes, a weakness in the case that hadn't previously been known, a significant — hadn't previously been known, a significant weakness, serious problem _ significant weakness, serious problem i think is the terminology dunlop— problem i think is the terminology dunlop used, but the consensus view,

supported _ dunlop used, but the consensus view, supported by the law officers, is that it _ supported by the law officers, is that it was — supported by the law officers, is that it was a credible argument, and actually— that it was a credible argument, and actually this didn't happen, which is why— actually this didn't happen, which is why you — actually this didn't happen, which is why you can apply the hind site and get _ is why you can apply the hind site and get to— is why you can apply the hind site and get to the point you are reasonably making to me, but i think at that— reasonably making to me, but i think at that point — reasonably making to me, but i think at that point it was actually a reasonable judgment to say it was better— reasonable judgment to say it was better for— reasonable judgment to say it was better for the complainers to try to defend _ better for the complainers to try to defend the case and hopefully prevail — defend the case and hopefully prevail on the case, so that they didn't— prevail on the case, so that they didn't have — prevail on the case, so that they didn't have to go through a revised and rerun— didn't have to go through a revised and rerun procedure. we didn't have to go through a revised and rerun procedure.— didn't have to go through a revised and rerun procedure. we don't know what happened _ and rerun procedure. we don't know what happened on _ and rerun procedure. we don't know what happened on the _ and rerun procedure. we don't know what happened on the meeting - and rerun procedure. we don't know what happened on the meeting of i and rerun procedure. we don't know. what happened on the meeting of the 2nd of— what happened on the meeting of the 2nd of november— what happened on the meeting of the 2nd of november because _ what happened on the meeting of the 2nd of november because we - what happened on the meeting of the 2nd of november because we don't. 2nd of november because we don't have those — 2nd of november because we don't have those papers _ 2nd of november because we don't have those papers in _ 2nd of november because we don't have those papers in front - 2nd of november because we don't have those papers in front of - 2nd of november because we don't have those papers in front of us, . have those papers in front of us, 0k? _ have those papers in front of us, 0k? ., �* ., , ., .,~ 0k? you've made... gloyn i am making it aaain 0k? you've made... gloyn i am making it again because — 0k? you've made... gloyn i am making it again because there _ 0k? you've made... gloyn i am making it again because there is _ 0k? you've made... gloyn i am making it again because there is the _ it again because there is the obvious— it again because there is the obvious difficulty they have nothing to test _ obvious difficulty they have nothing to test your response against. can i io to test your response against. can i go to— to test your response against. can i go to one _ to test your response against. can i go to one of— to test your response against. can i go to one of the obvious areas that they were — go to one of the obvious areas that they were wanting further information, and that is the role of the investigating officer. why did it take _ the investigating officer. why did it take so — the investigating officer. why did it take so long to find out the investigating officer's prior involvement with the complainants, when _ involvement with the complainants, when according to her evidence to the committee, it was widely known?

so at this point it was believed that the — so at this point it was believed that the degree of contact between the investigating officer and the complainants was not such that it meant _ complainants was not such that it meant we — complainants was not such that it meant we couldn't argue the interpretation and the fact, the degree — interpretation and the fact, the degree and nature of the contact was such that _ degree and nature of the contact was such that it— degree and nature of the contact was such that it didn't make the process unfair~ _ such that it didn't make the process unfair~ later— such that it didn't make the process unfair. later information came to light, _ unfair. later information came to light, and — unfair. later information came to light, and i— unfair. later information came to light, and i cannot definitively answer— light, and i cannot definitively answer the question as to why it took— answer the question as to why it took so — answer the question as to why it took so long for that information to come _ took so long for that information to come to— took so long for that information to come to light, but you can only base decisions _ come to light, but you can only base decisions on — come to light, but you can only base decisions on the information you have _ decisions on the information you have at— decisions on the information you have at the — decisions on the information you have at the time, and that is the broad _ have at the time, and that is the broad summary of the position that pertained _ broad summary of the position that pertained on the 31st of october. of course, _ pertained on the 31st of october. of course, this— pertained on the 31st of october. of course, this was something, and a large _ course, this was something, and a large part— course, this was something, and a large part of— course, this was something, and a large part of the 31st of october note is— large part of the 31st of october note is talking about the obligation of disclosure on the government, so this was— of disclosure on the government, so this was disclosed by the government, and then became one of the formal— government, and then became one of the formal challenges in the judicial— the formal challenges in the judicial review. so at each stage,

you can, — judicial review. so at each stage, you can, and it is part of the committee'sjob, to look at you can, and it is part of the committee's job, to look at the thing _ committee's job, to look at the thing in — committee's job, to look at the thing in the round, to look at it from _ thing in the round, to look at it from the — thing in the round, to look at it from the perspective of the outcome and work— from the perspective of the outcome and work your way back, and come to and work your way back, and come to a view— and work your way back, and come to a view on _ and work your way back, and come to a view on what we got wrong what they got _ a view on what we got wrong what they got right, but when you are in they got right, but when you are in the decision—making process, you take the _ the decision—making process, you take the decisions on the basis of the information that is in front of you at— the information that is in front of you at the — the information that is in front of you at the time, and i think at each stage _ you at the time, and i think at each stage the _ you at the time, and i think at each stage the decisions that the government reached our absolutely defensible, on the grounds of being legally— defensible, on the grounds of being legally sound, and sound in that wider— legally sound, and sound in that wider context as well. was legally sound, and sound in that wider context as well.— wider context as well. was she soken wider context as well. was she spoken to _ wider context as well. was she spoken to by — wider context as well. was she spoken to by the _ wider context as well. was she spoken to by the scottish - spoken to by the scottish government's— spoken to by the scottish government's legal- spoken to by the scottish - government's legal department, spoken to by the scottish _ government's legal department, and if so when? — government's legal department, and if so when? i— government's legal department, and if so when? ., �* government's legal department, and ifso when? ., �* ~ ., government's legal department, and if so when?_ she - government's legal department, and if so when?_ she was i if so when? i don't know. she was interviewed _ if so when? i don't know. she was interviewed by _ if so when? i don't know. she was interviewed byjunior _ if so when? i don't know. she was interviewed byjunior counsel- if so when? i don't know. she was interviewed by junior counsel on l if so when? i don't know. she was l interviewed byjunior counsel on the interviewed by junior counsel on the 17th of— interviewed byjunior counsel on the 17th of october. _ interviewed byjunior counsel on the 17th of october. 0h, _ interviewed byjunior counsel on the 17th of october.— 17th of october. oh, sorry, in the context, 17th of october. oh, sorry, in the context. l— 17th of october. oh, sorry, in the context, i understand _ 17th of october. oh, sorry, in the context, i understand that - context, i understand that statements and affidavits were taken from the _ statements and affidavits were taken from the investigating officers, sorry. — from the investigating officers, sorry. i— from the investigating officers, sorry, i misunderstood. do from the investigating officers, sorry, i misunderstood.- from the investigating officers, sorry, i misunderstood. do you know when that was? _ sorry, i misunderstood. do you know when that was? i _ sorry, i misunderstood. do you know when that was? i don't _ sorry, i misunderstood. do you know when that was? i don't have - sorry, i misunderstood. do you know when that was? i don't have the - when that was? i don't have the dates. when that was? i don't have the dates- that _ when that was? i don't have the dates. that would _ when that was? i don't have the dates. that would be _ when that was? i don't have the dates. that would be useful - when that was? i don't have the dates. that would be useful to l when that was? i don't have the - dates. that would be useful to know. she did meet —

dates. that would be useful to know. she did meet with _ dates. that would be useful to know. she did meet with junior _ dates. that would be useful to know. she did meet with junior counsel- dates. that would be useful to know. she did meet with junior counsel we | she did meet withjunior counsel we understand — she did meet withjunior counsel we understand on— she did meet withjunior counsel we understand on the _ she did meet withjunior counsel we understand on the 17th _ she did meet withjunior counsel we understand on the 17th of _ she did meet withjunior counsel we understand on the 17th of october, i understand on the 17th of october, again. _ understand on the 17th of october, again. we — understand on the 17th of october, again. we don't— understand on the 17th of october, again, we don't have _ understand on the 17th of october, again, we don't have a _ understand on the 17th of october, again, we don't have a note - understand on the 17th of october, again, we don't have a note of- understand on the 17th of october, j again, we don't have a note of that date of— again, we don't have a note of that date of that— again, we don't have a note of that date of that meeting, _ again, we don't have a note of that date of that meeting, would - again, we don't have a note of that date of that meeting, would be - date of that meeting, would be appropriate _ date of that meeting, would be appropriate to _ date of that meeting, would be appropriate to supply _ date of that meeting, would be appropriate to supply us - i don't know, i am not involved, not least _ i don't know, i am not involved, not least because — i don't know, i am not involved, not least because i_ i don't know, i am not involved, not least because i am _ i don't know, i am not involved, not least because i am sitting _ i don't know, i am not involved, not least because i am sitting here - least because i am sitting here right— least because i am sitting here riurh ., least because i am sitting here rich ., .., , least because i am sitting here rich ., _, , . right now, in considering what further information _ right now, in considering what further information the - right now, in considering what - further information the committee will be _ further information the committee will be sent so i'm not going to answer— will be sent so i'm not going to answer those questions, yes or no, because _ answer those questions, yes or no, because there will be considerations that are _ because there will be considerations that are no — because there will be considerations that are no doubt being and will be undertaken. gk. that are no doubt being and will be undertaken-— that are no doubt being and will be undertaken. . ., ., ., undertaken. ok. can i move on to the du of undertaken. ok. can i move on to the duty of candour. _ undertaken. ok. can i move on to the duty of candour, because _ undertaken. ok. can i move on to the duty of candour, because that - undertaken. ok. can i move on to the duty of candour, because that of- duty of candour, because that of course _ duty of candour, because that of course requires _ duty of candour, because that of course requires full— duty of candour, because that of course requires full disclosure . duty of candour, because that ofj course requires full disclosure of information— course requires full disclosure of information by— course requires full disclosure of information by the _ course requires full disclosure of information by the scottish - information by the scottish covenant~ _ information by the scottish covenant. why _ information by the scottish covenant. why was - information by the scottish covenant. why was the - information by the scottish - covenant. why was the commission information by the scottish _ covenant. why was the commission on diligence _ covenant. why was the commission on diligence needed, _ covenant. why was the commission on diligence needed, why— covenant. why was the commission on diligence needed, why did _ covenant. why was the commission on diligence needed, why did the - diligence needed, why did the scottish— diligence needed, why did the scottish government - diligence needed, why did the scottish government not - diligence needed, why did thej scottish government not hand diligence needed, why did the - scottish government not hand over the information— scottish government not hand over the information that _ scottish government not hand over the information that would - scottish government not hand over the information that would be - the information that would be required — the information that would be required and _ the information that would be required and expected - the information that would be required and expected of- the information that would be required and expected of it? i the information that would be . required and expected of it? my required and expected of it? understanding is the scottish government did hand over the information that it thought it had, and was _ information that it thought it had, and was complying with the duty of candour. _ and was complying with the duty of candour. as— and was complying with the duty of candour, as it thought, information came _ candour, as it thought, information came to _ candour, as it thought, information came to light regrettably during the commission on diligence that then have the _

commission on diligence that then have the result that we have spoken about _ have the result that we have spoken about. there was, to the best of my knowledge, — about. there was, to the best of my knowledge, no intention on the part of the _ knowledge, no intention on the part of the scottish government to withhold information, but the process— withhold information, but the process demonstrated that there had been information that was not handed over in— been information that was not handed over in the _ been information that was not handed over in the proper and timely way. 0k. over in the proper and timely way. ok i_ over in the proper and timely way. ok i mean — over in the proper and timely way. ok i mean i — over in the proper and timely way. ok. i mean i have to say, this mirrors— ok. i mean i have to say, this mirrors the _ ok. i mean i have to say, this mirrors the committee's - ok. i mean i have to say, this- mirrors the committee's experience of trying _ mirrors the committee's experience of trying to— mirrors the committee's experience of trying to get _ mirrors the committee's experience of trying to get information - mirrors the committee's experience of trying to get information from . of trying to get information from the scottish— of trying to get information from the scottish government. - of trying to get information from the scottish government. you i of trying to get information from . the scottish government. you may recall— the scottish government. you may recall there — the scottish government. you may recall there was _ the scottish government. you may recall there was a _ the scottish government. you may recall there was a search _ the scottish government. you may recall there was a search warrant l recall there was a search warrant issued _ recall there was a search warrant issued to— recall there was a search warrant issued to the _ recall there was a search warrant issued to the permanent - recall there was a search warrant. issued to the permanent secretary from _ issued to the permanent secretary from the _ issued to the permanent secretary from the crown _ issued to the permanent secretary from the crown office _ issued to the permanent secretary from the crown office to _ issued to the permanent secretary from the crown office to gather i from the crown office to gather material — from the crown office to gather material for _ from the crown office to gather material for the _ from the crown office to gather material for the criminal- from the crown office to gather material for the criminal trial. l from the crown office to gather i material for the criminal trial. the committee — material for the criminal trial. the committee itself _ material for the criminal trial. the committee itself asked _ material for the criminal trial. the committee itself asked for- committee itself asked for information— committee itself asked for information on— committee itself asked for information on the - committee itself asked for- information on the complaints handling — information on the complaints handling phase. _ information on the complaints handling phase. and - information on the complaints handling phase. and in - information on the complaints. handling phase. and in addition information on the complaints i handling phase. and in addition to a number— handling phase. and in addition to a number of— handling phase. and in addition to a number of documents, _ handling phase. and in addition to a number of documents, we - handling phase. and in addition to a number of documents, we got i handling phase. and in addition to a number of documents, we got 40 l number of documents, we got 40 documents — number of documents, we got 40 documents not _ number of documents, we got 40 documents not previously- number of documents, we got 40 documents not previously seen i documents not previously seen before, — documents not previously seen before, either— documents not previously seen before, either at— documents not previously seen before, either at the _ documents not previously seen before, either at the criminal. before, either at the criminal trial, — before, either at the criminal trial, or— before, either at the criminal trial, or indeed _ before, either at the criminal trial, or indeed at _ before, either at the criminal trial, or indeed at the - before, either at the criminal trial, or indeed at the court i before, either at the criminall trial, or indeed at the court of session— trial, or indeed at the court of session during _ trial, or indeed at the court of session during the _ trial, or indeed at the court of session during the judicial- trial, or indeed at the court of- session during the judicial review. should _ session during the judicial review. should they— session during the judicial review. should they have _ session during the judicial review. should they have been _ session during the judicial review. should they have been revealed . session during the judicial review. | should they have been revealed to the court _ should they have been revealed to the court session _ should they have been revealed to the court session and _ should they have been revealed to the court session and the - should they have been revealed to the court session and the crown i the court session and the crown

office? — the court session and the crown 0ffice? andm _ the court session and the crown office? and...— the court session and the crown office? and... sorry, i thought you were finished. _ office? and... sorry, i thought you were finished. breaching _ office? and... sorry, i thought you were finished. breaching the i office? and... sorry, i thought you were finished. breaching the terms ofthe were finished. breaching the terms of the search _ were finished. breaching the terms of the search warrant, _ were finished. breaching the terms of the search warrant, i _ were finished. breaching the terms of the search warrant, i had i of the search warrant, i had understood _ of the search warrant, i had understood as— of the search warrant, i had understood as a _ of the search warrant, i had understood as a lay - of the search warrant, i hadj understood as a lay person, of the search warrant, i had i understood as a lay person, was quite _ understood as a lay person, was quite serious _ understood as a lay person, was quite serious will— understood as a lay person, was quite serious will stop _ understood as a lay person, was quite serious will stop have i- understood as a lay person, was| quite serious will stop have i got that wrong? _ quite serious will stop have i got that wrong? it— quite serious will stop have i got that wrong?— quite serious will stop have i got that wrong? quite serious will stop have i got that wronc? ., , , ., , that wrong? it would be serious, if that wrong? it would be serious, if that is what _ that wrong? it would be serious, if that is what had _ that wrong? it would be serious, if that is what had happened. it i that wrong? it would be serious, if that is what had happened. it is i that wrong? it would be serious, if that is what had happened. it is al that is what had happened. it is a bit like _ that is what had happened. it is a bit like some of the other things that have — bit like some of the other things that have been picked to be, there is an— that have been picked to be, there is an assumption underpinning that question— is an assumption underpinning that question that i don't necessarily accept~ — question that i don't necessarily accept~ i— question that i don't necessarily accept. i think there has been a suggestion made i think from mr salmond — suggestion made i think from mr salmond that 46 documents were inappropriately held from the warrant — inappropriately held from the warrant in the criminal investigation. the scottish government officials have reviewed the documents that were listed in the documents that were listed in the submission he made to the committee. of these, 13 of them were in fact— committee. of these, 13 of them were in fact released under the warrant, and others — in fact released under the warrant, and others didn't meet the specific terms _ and others didn't meet the specific terms of— and others didn't meet the specific terms of the warrant. certainly ministers — terms of the warrant. certainly ministers and the permanent secretary had no role in determining which _ secretary had no role in determining which documents were in scope of the terms _ which documents were in scope of the terms of— which documents were in scope of the terms of the _ which documents were in scope of the terms of the warrant. there was a rigorous _ terms of the warrant. there was a rigorous process undertaken, but

crucially— rigorous process undertaken, but crucially the warrant process is included — crucially the warrant process is included oversight by an independent commissioner that was appointed by the court. _ commissioner that was appointed by the court, so where documents weren't— the court, so where documents weren't handed over, that would have been because a judgment was made that they— been because a judgment was made that they weren't within the scope of the _ that they weren't within the scope of the warrant, but that was not a process _ of the warrant, but that was not a process i— of the warrant, but that was not a process i had any direct involvement in. . ., , ., ., process i had any direct involvement in. ok. can i move us on to sisting, and ou in. ok. can i move us on to sisting, and you earlier _ in. ok. can i move us on to sisting, and you earlier said, _ in. ok. can i move us on to sisting, and you earlier said, i _ in. ok. can i move us on to sisting, and you earlier said, i think - in. ok. can i move us on to sisting, and you earlier said, i think in i and you earlier said, i think in response _ and you earlier said, i think in response to, _ and you earlier said, i think in response to, it _ and you earlier said, i think in response to, it might - and you earlier said, i think in response to, it might have i and you earlier said, i think in . response to, it might have been alastair— response to, it might have been alastair alan, _ response to, it might have been alastair alan, about _ response to, it might have been alastair alan, about the - response to, it might have been alastair alan, about the naturei response to, it might have been. alastair alan, about the nature of the attempt — alastair alan, about the nature of the attempt to _ alastair alan, about the nature of the attempt to sist _ alastair alan, about the nature of the attempt to sist the _ alastair alan, about the nature of the attempt to sist the judicial. the attempt to sist the judicial review _ the attempt to sist the judicial review to— the attempt to sist the 'udicial review... ., , , ., , review... to the best of my knowledge _ review... to the best of my knowledge there _ review... to the best of my knowledge there was i review... to the best of my knowledge there was no i review... to the best of my - knowledge there was no attempt to sist the _ knowledge there was no attempt to sist the judicial review. but knowledge there was no attempt to sist the judicial review.— sist the 'udicial review. but there was an sist the judicial review. but there was an attempt. _ sist the judicial review. but there was an attempt. we _ sist the judicial review. but there was an attempt. we are - sist the judicial review. but there was an attempt. we are talking l sist the judicial review. but there - was an attempt. we are talking about -- but there — was an attempt. we are talking about -- but there was _ was an attempt. we are talking about -- but there was a _ was an attempt. we are talking about -- but there was a discussion - was an attempt. we are talking about -- but there was a discussion to - -- but there was a discussion to have. -- but there was a discussion to have- you _ -- but there was a discussion to have. you would _ -- but there was a discussion to have. you would consider - -- but there was a discussion to have. you would consider and l -- but there was a discussion to have. you would consider and i | -- but there was a discussion to - have. you would consider and i think the government _ have. you would consider and i think the government did, _ have. you would consider and i think the government did, whether- have. you would consider and i think the government did, whether there l the government did, whether there was any— the government did, whether there was any case that there should be an

application _ was any case that there should be an application for sisting that didn't happen, — application for sisting that didn't happen, and instead there was an agreement on the part of the scottish— agreement on the part of the scottish government not to, and certainly— scottish government not to, and certainly from my memory of those discussions, there was always a sense _ discussions, there was always a sense that _ discussions, there was always a sense that reporting restrictions would _ sense that reporting restrictions would always be preferable to sisting — would always be preferable to sisting. the idea that the government is trying to get this judicial— government is trying to get this judicial review sisted is not the case _ judicial review sisted is not the case. ~ ., ., ., ., case. we were told that he had a secial case. we were told that he had a special statement _ case. we were told that he had a special statement that _ case. we were told that he had a special statement that was - special statement that was encouraging _ special statement that was encouraging civil— special statement that was encouraging civil servants i special statement that was. encouraging civil servants to special statement that was - encouraging civil servants to come forward _ encouraging civil servants to come forward as— encouraging civil servants to come forward as they _ encouraging civil servants to come forward as they were _ encouraging civil servants to come forward as they were out - encouraging civil servants to come forward as they were out to - encouraging civil servants to come forward as they were out to get i encouraging civil servants to come. forward as they were out to get him and that— forward as they were out to get him and that would _ forward as they were out to get him and that would assist _ forward as they were out to get him and that would assist the _ forward as they were out to get him and that would assist the sisting - and that would assist the sisting process — and that would assist the sisting process so _ and that would assist the sisting rocess. ., ., ., ., process. so i will go on to what i understand _ process. so i will go on to what i understand from _ process. so i will go on to what i understand from that _ process. so i will go on to what i understand from that process. i | process. so i will go on to what i - understand from that process. i hear these _ understand from that process. i hear these things, neither have i, but i have _ these things, neither have i, but i have made — these things, neither have i, but i have made some enquiries but can i 'ust have made some enquiries but can i just say— have made some enquiries but can i just say you — have made some enquiries but can i just say you were told a lot of things— just say you were told a lot of things by— just say you were told a lot of things by the former first minister, 'ust things by the former first minister, just as _ things by the former first minister, just as you — things by the former first minister, just as you will be applying your critical— just as you will be applying your

critical faculties to what i'm telling _ critical faculties to what i'm telling you, i'm sure you're doing the same — telling you, i'm sure you're doing the same to his as well. the government did not try to sist. and to the _ government did not try to sist. and to the best — government did not try to sist. and to the best of my knowledge, there was no _ to the best of my knowledge, there was no after the early stages in september that led to reporting restrictions being imposed, as i said earlier on, i can't sit here and _ said earlier on, i can't sit here and say— said earlier on, i can't sit here and say nobody in the government ever raised — and say nobody in the government ever raised the word sisting again, i can't _ ever raised the word sisting again, i can't even — ever raised the word sisting again, i can't even be sure i didn't raise the word — i can't even be sure i didn't raise the word sisting again but there was no serious _ the word sisting again but there was no serious attempt at any point on the part— no serious attempt at any point on the part of— no serious attempt at any point on the part of the government to get this case — the part of the government to get this case sisted, so this kind of theory— this case sisted, so this kind of theory seems to fall apart on this really— theory seems to fall apart on this really inconvenient fact. i have to piece _ really inconvenient fact. i have to piece these things together, forgive me, piece these things together, forgive nie. i_ piece these things together, forgive nie. ithink— piece these things together, forgive me, i think there has been an implication, that is putting it too strongly, — implication, that is putting it too strongly, i— implication, that is putting it too strongly, i think some people perhaps— strongly, i think some people perhaps have wanted it to be assumed that the _ perhaps have wanted it to be assumed that the special adviser in this

particular— that the special adviser in this particular fragment of the conspiracy theory, if i can call it that, _ conspiracy theory, if i can call it that, was— conspiracy theory, if i can call it that, was my chief of staff. my understanding is that's not the case — understanding is that's not the case the _ understanding is that's not the case. the special adviser that allegedly said this was asked about it by allegedly said this was asked about it try the _ allegedly said this was asked about it by the police and is adamant that that was— it by the police and is adamant that that was not something that was said _ that was not something that was said but — that was not something that was said. but this is also special adviser, _ said. but this is also special adviser, they would have no real knowledge or insight into what was happening in the judicial review. i can't _ happening in the judicial review. i can't say— happening in the judicial review. i can't say any more than that because it isiust _ can't say any more than that because it isiust me — can't say any more than that because it isjust me trying to piece fragments of information together, but probably the most important thing _ but probably the most important thing for— but probably the most important thing for me to say is if somebody wants— thing for me to say is if somebody wants to _ thing for me to say is if somebody wants to genuinely argue that the government was trying to gain —— to game _ government was trying to gain —— to game the _ government was trying to gain —— to game the timing of the judicial review— game the timing of the judicial review in— game the timing of the judicial review in order to allow it to be overtaken— review in order to allow it to be overtaken by criminal investigation, there _ overtaken by criminal investigation, there are _ overtaken by criminal investigation, there are a — overtaken by criminal investigation, there are a lot of things that have to be _ there are a lot of things that have to be established, a lot of very unlikely— to be established, a lot of very unlikely and implausible things that have to _ unlikely and implausible things that have to be established, but nobody as far _ have to be established, but nobody as far as— have to be established, but nobody as far as i_ have to be established, but nobody as far as i can see has come within 1 million— as far as i can see has come within 1 million miles of doing. probably

because — 1 million miles of doing. probably because it — 1 million miles of doing. probably because it simply did not happen in that way _ because it simply did not happen in that way i— because it simply did not happen in thatwa . . , , because it simply did not happen in thatwa. , that way. i absolutely hope the first minister _ that way. i absolutely hope the first minister is _ that way. i absolutely hope the first minister is right _ that way. i absolutely hope the first minister is right but - that way. i absolutely hope the first minister is right but you i that way. i absolutely hope the l first minister is right but you will not be _ first minister is right but you will not be surprised _ first minister is right but you will not be surprised we _ first minister is right but you will not be surprised we do— first minister is right but you will not be surprised we do not- first minister is right but you will not be surprised we do not havel first minister is right but you will. not be surprised we do not have the paperwork— not be surprised we do not have the paperwork related _ not be surprised we do not have the paperwork related to _ not be surprised we do not have the paperwork related to that, - not be surprised we do not have the paperwork related to that, we - not be surprised we do not have the paperwork related to that, we havel paperwork related to that, we have been _ paperwork related to that, we have been promised _ paperwork related to that, we have been promised to— paperwork related to that, we have been promised to it, _ paperwork related to that, we have been promised to it, still— paperwork related to that, we have been promised to it, still yet - paperwork related to that, we have been promised to it, still yet to- been promised to it, still yet to appear~ — been promised to it, still yet to a- ear. �* ., ., appear. but if the government had made an attempt _ appear. but if the government had made an attempt to _ appear. but if the government had made an attempt to one _ appear. but if the government had made an attempt to one the - appear. but if the government had made an attempt to one the case, | made an attempt to one the case, presumably that would be known through — presumably that would be known through the court proceedings, that there _ through the court proceedings, that there had _ through the court proceedings, that there had been an attempt to sist there had been an attempt to sist the case? — there had been an attempt to sist the case? we there had been an attempt to sist the case? ~ ., ., ., the case? we have nothing from the government. — the case? we have nothing from the government, despite _ the case? we have nothing from the government, despite requesting - the case? we have nothing from the government, despite requesting it, | government, despite requesting it, and they— government, despite requesting it, and they have — government, despite requesting it, and they have promised _ government, despite requesting it, and they have promised to - government, despite requesting it, and they have promised to deliver. and they have promised to deliver it, and they have promised to deliver it. so— and they have promised to deliver it. so maybe — and they have promised to deliver it. so maybe you _ and they have promised to deliver it, so maybe you could _ and they have promised to deliver it, so maybe you could hurry- and they have promised to deliverj it, so maybe you could hurry them up? thank— it, so maybe you could hurry them up? thank you. _ it, so maybe you could hurry them up? thank you, convener. - it, so maybe you could hurry them up? thank you, convener.- it, so maybe you could hurry them up? thank you, convener. thank you, miss bailey- — up? thank you, convener. thank you, miss bailey. now _ up? thank you, convener. thank you, miss bailey. now i _ up? thank you, convener. thank you, miss bailey. now i think— up? thank you, convener. thank you, miss bailey. now i think there - up? thank you, convener. thank you, miss bailey. now i think there is - up? thank you, convener. thank you, miss bailey. now i think there is a - miss bailey. now i think there is a small question or so from mr mcmillan on thejudicial small question or so from mr mcmillan on the judicial review, and then i will ask him to move straight into the ministerial code, of which he also has a couple of questions on. ., ~' he also has a couple of questions on. ., ~ , ., he also has a couple of questions on. . ~' , ., ., he also has a couple of questions on. . ~ i. ., , ., on. thank you, convener. i 'ust want to follow on — on. thank you, convener. i 'ust want to follow on from h on. thank you, convener. i 'ust want to follow on from a h on. thank you, convener. i 'ust want to follow on from a couple _ on. thank you, convener. ijust want to follow on from a couple of- on. thank you, convener. ijust want to follow on from a couple of jackie l to follow on from a couple ofjackie baillie's _ to follow on from a couple ofjackie baillie's questions, _ to follow on from a couple ofjackie baillie's questions, and _ to follow on from a couple ofjackie baillie's questions, and it- to follow on from a couple ofjackie baillie's questions, and it was- baillie's questions, and it was touched —

baillie's questions, and it was touched upon— baillie's questions, and it was touched upon a _ baillie's questions, and it was touched upon a moment - baillie's questions, and it was touched upon a moment agol baillie's questions, and it was. touched upon a moment ago that baillie's questions, and it was- touched upon a moment ago that the scottish— touched upon a moment ago that the scottish government _ touched upon a moment ago that the scottish government didn't _ touched upon a moment ago that the scottish government didn't send - scottish government didn't send anyone — scottish government didn't send anyone to — scottish government didn't send anyone to the _ scottish government didn't send anyone to the launching - scottish government didn't send anyone to the launching of - scottish government didn't send anyone to the launching of the l anyone to the launching of the complainers's _ anyone to the launching of the complainers's process. - anyone to the launching of the complainers's process. can- anyone to the launching of the i complainers's process. can you explain — complainers's process. can you explain why— complainers's process. can you explain why the _ complainers's process. can you explain why the scottish - complainers's process. can you - explain why the scottish government didn't— explain why the scottish government didn't send _ explain why the scottish government didn't send anyone? _ explain why the scottish government didn't send anyone?— didn't send anyone? forgive me, mr macmillan. — didn't send anyone? forgive me, mr macmillan. l— didn't send anyone? forgive me, mr macmillan. i am _ didn't send anyone? forgive me, mr macmillan, i am not— didn't send anyone? forgive me, mr macmillan, i am not 100%_ didn't send anyone? forgive me, mr macmillan, i am not 100% sure. - didn't send anyone? forgive me, mr| macmillan, i am not 100% sure. that macmillan, iam not 100% sure. that was the _ macmillan, iam not 100% sure. that was the motion for reporting restrictions?— was the motion for reporting restrictions?- as - was the motion for reporting restrictions?- as i - was the motion for reporting restrictions? yes. as i understand it, and i restrictions? yes. as i understand it. and i stand _ restrictions? yes. as i understand it, and i stand to _ restrictions? yes. as i understand it, and i stand to be _ restrictions? yes. as i understand it, and i stand to be corrected if i'm getting _ it, and i stand to be corrected if i'm getting this wrong, it is because _ i'm getting this wrong, it is because we won't opposing it, so there _ because we won't opposing it, so there was— because we won't opposing it, so there was no need for the government to turn— there was no need for the government to turn up— there was no need for the government to turn up to _ there was no need for the government to turn up to say we are not opposing — to turn up to say we are not opposing it. as far as i understand, that is— opposing it. as far as i understand, that is not— opposing it. as far as i understand, that is not necessary, that is not unusual— that is not necessary, that is not unusual in— that is not necessary, that is not unusual in court proceedings, if a motion _ unusual in court proceedings, if a motion is — unusual in court proceedings, if a motion is unopposed and there is no need _ motion is unopposed and there is no need for— motion is unopposed and there is no need for anyone to be there —— for everyone — need for anyone to be there —— for everyone to — need for anyone to be there —— for everyone to be in their in the court to understand —— to do that. from my understanding that is the explanation for that. in understanding that is the explanation for that. in your time as a minister. — explanation for that. in your time as a minister, have _ explanation for that. in your time as a minister, have you _ explanation for that. in your time as a minister, have you seen - explanation for that. in your time as a minister, have you seen any|

as a minister, have you seen any legal— as a minister, have you seen any legal advice _ as a minister, have you seen any legal advice from _ as a minister, have you seen any legal advice from counsel- as a minister, have you seen any legal advice from counsel that i legal advice from counsel that predicted _ legal advice from counsel that predicted defeat _ legal advice from counsel that predicted defeat for— legal advice from counsel that predicted defeat for the - legal advice from counsel that . predicted defeat for the scottish government, _ predicted defeat for the scottish government, but— predicted defeat for the scottish government, but that _ predicted defeat for the scottish government, but that the - predicted defeat for the scottish - government, but that the government then went _ government, but that the government then went on — government, but that the government then went on to— government, but that the government then went on to win? _ government, but that the government then went on to win? i _ government, but that the government then went on to win? i am“ _ government, but that the government then went on to win?— then went on to win? i am conscious here that we — then went on to win? i am conscious here that we have _ then went on to win? i am conscious here that we have waived _ then went on to win? i am conscious here that we have waived legal - here that we have waived legal privilege — here that we have waived legal privilege in the legal advice in this matter, we have not waved legal privilege. _ this matter, we have not waved legal privilege, so the ministerial code still applies, privilege, so the ministerial code stillapplies, in privilege, so the ministerial code still applies, in terms of legal advice — still applies, in terms of legal advice on _ still applies, in terms of legal advice on all other issues, so i could — advice on all other issues, so i could not— advice on all other issues, so i could not confirm or deny the content — could not confirm or deny the content or— could not confirm or deny the content or provenance of legal advice — content or provenance of legal advice on _ content or provenance of legal advice on other matters, so i'm not doing _ advice on other matters, so i'm not doing that, — advice on other matters, so i'm not doing that, because that would be taking _ doing that, because that would be taking me — doing that, because that would be taking me into difficult territory. but i _ taking me into difficult territory. but i commented on general terms that you _ but i commented on general terms that you will get a spectrum of opinion— that you will get a spectrum of opinion in— that you will get a spectrum of opinion in any litigation on any issue. — opinion in any litigation on any issue. and _ opinion in any litigation on any issue, and sometimes in the course of a litigation, it will move backwards and forwards, in terms of we are _ backwards and forwards, in terms of we are really confident, or we are not so _ we are really confident, or we are not so confident now, and back again. — not so confident now, and back again. and _ not so confident now, and back again, and that would not be unusual, _ again, and that would not be unusual, and i use minimum pricing because _ unusual, and i use minimum pricing because it _ unusual, and i use minimum pricing because it is — unusual, and i use minimum pricing because it is the one i have been most _ because it is the one i have been most closely associated with and

involved — most closely associated with and involved with. obviously these matters — involved with. obviously these matters aside, in my ministerial career~ — matters aside, in my ministerial career~ and _ matters aside, in my ministerial career. and also because it was a very— career. and also because it was a very long. — career. and also because it was a very long, protracted litigation, it went— very long, protracted litigation, it went all— very long, protracted litigation, it went all the way to the supreme court, _ went all the way to the supreme court, if— went all the way to the supreme court, if i — went all the way to the supreme court, if i recall, and i use that to illustrate that point, but i can't — to illustrate that point, but i can't go _ to illustrate that point, but i can't go into the content of any legal— can't go into the content of any legal advice on any particular issue — legal advice on any particular issue. ., ~' , ., legal advice on any particular issue. . ,, ., issue. thank you. both the lord advocate and — issue. thank you. both the lord advocate and former _ issue. thank you. both the lord advocate and former director i issue. thank you. both the lord advocate and former director ofj advocate and former director of legal _ advocate and former director of legal services _ advocate and former director of legal services were _ advocate and former director of legal services were quite - advocate and former director of legal services were quite candid about— legal services were quite candid about the — legal services were quite candid about the government's - legal services were quite candid about the government's failings implicating _ about the government's failings implicating and _ about the government's failings implicating and sharing - about the government's failings implicating and sharing all- about the government's failings i implicating and sharing all relevant documents — implicating and sharing all relevant documents with— implicating and sharing all relevant documents with mr— implicating and sharing all relevant documents with mr salmond - implicating and sharing all relevant documents with mr salmond is - implicating and sharing all relevantj documents with mr salmond is part implicating and sharing all relevant i documents with mr salmond is part of the judicial— documents with mr salmond is part of the judicial review. _ documents with mr salmond is part of the judicial review. how— documents with mr salmond is part of the judicial review. how can _ documents with mr salmond is part of the judicial review. how can the - the judicial review. how can the scottish— the judicial review. how can the scottish government _ the judicial review. how can the scottish government procedure | scottish government procedure change. — scottish government procedure change. so _ scottish government procedure change. so that— scottish government procedure change, so that the _ scottish government procedure change, so that the scottish . change, so that the scottish government— change, so that the scottish government are _ change, so that the scottish government are in - change, so that the scottish government are in a - change, so that the scottish government are in a much l change, so that the scottish - government are in a much better position— government are in a much better position to — government are in a much better position to make _ government are in a much better position to make the _ government are in a much better position to make the informationj position to make the information more _ position to make the information more available, _ position to make the information more available, certainly - position to make the information more available, certainly in - position to make the informationl more available, certainly in terms of future — more available, certainly in terms of future documents, _ more available, certainly in terms of future documents, which - more available, certainly in terms of future documents, which are i of future documents, which are necessary— of future documents, which are necessary in _ of future documents, which are necessary in any _ of future documents, which are necessary in any litigation? - of future documents, which are necessary in any litigation? look, the government _ necessary in any litigation? look, the government will _ necessary in any litigation? look, the government will be _ necessary in any litigation? look, the government will be learning | the government will be learning lessons — the government will be learning lessons on all of this, and i know

that, _ lessons on all of this, and i know that, i_ lessons on all of this, and i know that, ican't— lessons on all of this, and i know that, i can't give you specific questions _ that, i can't give you specific questions on that right now, in terms — questions on that right now, in terms of— questions on that right now, in terms of the technical things the government is trying to improve around — government is trying to improve around document retrieval. these are never _ around document retrieval. these are never simple — around document retrieval. these are never simple things. sure —— but with— never simple things. sure —— but with the— never simple things. sure —— but with the sheer volume of documents that go— with the sheer volume of documents that go through government systems on a daily. _ that go through government systems on a daily, weekly, monthly basis is massive, _ on a daily, weekly, monthly basis is massive, and i'm not making excuses here, _ massive, and i'm not making excuses here, but— massive, and i'm not making excuses here, but that will have been part of the _ here, but that will have been part of the issue here. iam not an expert— of the issue here. iam not an expert on— of the issue here. iam not an expert on how these searches are done, _ expert on how these searches are done, but — expert on how these searches are done, but you use keywords and phrases— done, but you use keywords and phrases and such like, so given the volume _ phrases and such like, so given the volume of— phrases and such like, so given the volume of information the government has, it— volume of information the government has, it is— volume of information the government has, it is a _ volume of information the government has, it is a complex process. it didn't— has, it is a complex process. it didn't work— has, it is a complex process. it didn't work at all times here the way it— didn't work at all times here the way it should have worked, and that is how _ way it should have worked, and that is how the _ way it should have worked, and that is how the consequences we have been talking _ is how the consequences we have been talking about, so these will be things— talking about, so these will be things that we will be seeking to improve — things that we will be seeking to improve and learn from in the future — improve and learn from in the future. ., ~' , ., improve and learn from in the future. ., ,, , ., , ., ., future. thank you, 'ust one final ruestion future. thank you, 'ust one final question in h future. thank you, 'ust one final question in this — future. thank you, just one final question in this area, _ future. thank you, just one final question in this area, it - future. thank you, just one final question in this area, it goes - future. thank you, just one final. question in this area, it goes back to the _ question in this area, it goes back to the document _ question in this area, it goes back to the document that _ question in this area, it goes back to the document that was - question in this area, it goes back. to the document that was published yesterday— to the document that was published yesterday of — to the document that was published yesterday of legal _

to the document that was published yesterday of legal advice _ to the document that was published yesterday of legal advice from - to the document that was published yesterday of legal advice from 27th| yesterday of legal advice from 27th of september, _ yesterday of legal advice from 27th of september, which _ yesterday of legal advice from 27th of september, which miss - yesterday of legal advice from 27th of september, which miss bailey. of september, which miss bailey touched — of september, which miss bailey touched upon _ of september, which miss bailey touched upon. do _ of september, which miss bailey touched upon. do you _ of september, which miss bailey touched upon. do you have - of september, which miss bailey touched upon. do you have any. touched upon. do you have any comments _ touched upon. do you have any comments or— touched upon. do you have any comments or thoughts- touched upon. do you have any comments or thoughts about . touched upon. do you have any. comments or thoughts about the council's — comments or thoughts about the council's advice _ comments or thoughts about the council's advice in _ comments or thoughts about the council's advice in that _ comments or thoughts about the i council's advice in that document, regarding — council's advice in that document, regarding the _ council's advice in that document, regarding the retrospective - council's advice in that document, . regarding the retrospective element of the _ regarding the retrospective element of the case? — regarding the retrospective element of the case? and _ regarding the retrospective element of the case? and procedure? - regarding the retrospective element of the case? and procedure? i’m“ . regarding the retrospective element of the case? and procedure? i'm not sure which document _ of the case? and procedure? i'm not sure which document you _ of the case? and procedure? i'm not sure which document you are - sure which document you are referring _ sure which document you are referring to.— referring to. sorry, the legal advice that _ referring to. sorry, the legal advice that was _ referring to. sorry, the legal advice that was published i referring to. sorry, the legal- advice that was published yesterday, the 27th _ advice that was published yesterday, the 27th of— advice that was published yesterday, the 27th of september. _ advice that was published yesterday, the 27th of september. the - advice that was published yesterday, the 27th of september.— the 27th of september. the note of --rosect? the 27th of september. the note of prospect? yeah- — the 27th of september. the note of prospect? yeah. yeah _ the 27th of september. the note of prospect? yeah. yeah i _ the 27th of september. the note of prospect? yeah. yeah i would i the 27th of september. the note of prospect? yeah. yeah i would say i prospect? yeah. yeah i would say nothina prospect? yeah. yeah i would say nothing in — prospect? yeah. yeah i would say nothing in addition _ prospect? yeah. yeah i would say nothing in addition to _ prospect? yeah. yeah i would say nothing in addition to what - prospect? yeah. yeah i would say nothing in addition to what i i prospect? yeah. yeah i would say nothing in addition to what i have | nothing in addition to what i have said already. _ nothing in addition to what i have said already, well, _ nothing in addition to what i have said already, well, i— nothing in addition to what i have said already, well, i am - nothing in addition to what i have said already, well, i am about. nothing in addition to what i have said already, well, i am about to| said already, well, i am about to repeat— said already, well, i am about to re -eai ., said already, well, i am about to re-iea ., ., ., ., repeat it,, that note of prospects was covering _ repeat it,, that note of prospects was covering all _ repeat it,, that note of prospects was covering all the _ repeat it,, that note of prospects was covering all the grounds i repeat it,, that note of prospects was covering all the grounds of i was covering all the grounds of challenging, and looking at what the view was _ challenging, and looking at what the view was around all of them. i can't immediately recall exactly what it said on— immediately recall exactly what it said on the retrospective at the ground, — said on the retrospective at the ground, but all of that would have been _ ground, but all of that would have been taken into account, as we considered our prospects. they don't know— considered our prospects. they don't know whether you want to point me to

the paragraph. know whether you want to point me to the paragraph-— the paragraph. paragraph 30 and 48. the reason why _ the paragraph. paragraph 30 and 48. the reason why i _ the paragraph. paragraph 30 and 48. the reason why i asked _ the paragraph. paragraph 30 and 48. the reason why i asked the _ the paragraph. paragraph 30 and 48. the reason why i asked the question | the reason why i asked the question is certainly _ the reason why i asked the question is certainly because _ the reason why i asked the question is certainly because mr— the reason why i asked the question is certainly because mr salmond i is certainly because mr salmond discussed — is certainly because mr salmond discussed at _ is certainly because mr salmond discussed at length _ is certainly because mr salmond discussed at length when - is certainly because mr salmond discussed at length when he i is certainly because mr salmond| discussed at length when he was is certainly because mr salmond i discussed at length when he was in front of— discussed at length when he was in front of us— discussed at length when he was in front of us on — discussed at length when he was in front of us on friday _ discussed at length when he was in front of us on friday and _ discussed at length when he was in front of us on friday and viewed i discussed at length when he was in| front of us on friday and viewed the aspect— front of us on friday and viewed the aspect of— front of us on friday and viewed the aspect of the — front of us on friday and viewed the aspect of the retrospective - front of us on friday and viewed the aspect of the retrospective liberty. aspect of the retrospective liberty aspect of the retrospective liberty as a strength _ aspect of the retrospective liberty as a strength -- _ aspect of the retrospective liberty as a strength —— the _ aspect of the retrospective libertyj as a strength —— the retrospective list. as a strength —— the retrospective list there — as a strength —— the retrospective list there had _ as a strength —— the retrospective list. there had been _ as a strength —— the retrospective list. there had been an— as a strength —— the retrospective list. there had been an increasedl list. there had been an increased public— list. there had been an increased public focus — list. there had been an increased public focus on _ list. there had been an increased public focus on public _ list. there had been an increased public focus on public allegations j public focus on public allegations of harassment— public focus on public allegations of harassment and _ public focus on public allegations of harassment and of— public focus on public allegations of harassment and of the - public focus on public allegations of harassment and of the failurel public focus on public allegations i of harassment and of the failure of those _ of harassment and of the failure of those who— of harassment and of the failure of those who had _ of harassment and of the failure of those who had experienced - of harassment and of the failure of- those who had experienced harassment to make _ those who had experienced harassment to make complaints— those who had experienced harassment to make complaints at _ those who had experienced harassment to make complaints at the _ those who had experienced harassment to make complaints at the time, - those who had experienced harassment to make complaints at the time, ie i to make complaints at the time, ie changes— to make complaints at the time, ie changes in— to make complaints at the time, ie changes in procedure _ to make complaints at the time, ie changes in procedure are _ to make complaints at the time, ie changes in procedure are often i changes in procedure are often retrospective _ changes in procedure are often retrospective and _ changes in procedure are often retrospective and legitimatelyl changes in procedure are often i retrospective and legitimately so. thanks _ retrospective and legitimately so. thanks for— retrospective and legitimately so. thanks for helping _ retrospective and legitimately so. thanks for helping me _ retrospective and legitimately so. thanks for helping me out, - retrospective and legitimately so. thanks for helping me out, that. retrospective and legitimately so. i thanks for helping me out, that goes to the _ thanks for helping me out, that goes to the heart— thanks for helping me out, that goes to the heart of it. mr salmond says he has _ to the heart of it. mr salmond says he has reviewed, which was backed up by his— he has reviewed, which was backed up by his legal— he has reviewed, which was backed up by his legal advice, which may have been, _ by his legal advice, which may have been. that— by his legal advice, which may have been, that retrospectivity was inappropriate and would have been a

le-al inappropriate and would have been a legal flaw— inappropriate and would have been a legal flaw in the procedure. my view and the _ legal flaw in the procedure. my view and the government's view is different, both on the legal basis, but also _ different, both on the legal basis, but also on — different, both on the legal basis, but also on the appropriateness of allowing _ but also on the appropriateness of allowing complaints of an historic nature _ allowing complaints of an historic nature to — allowing complaints of an historic nature to be investigated.- nature to be investigated. thank ou. i nature to be investigated. thank you- l will _ nature to be investigated. thank you. i will move _ nature to be investigated. thank you. i will move onto _ nature to be investigated. thank you. i will move onto ministerialj you. i will move onto ministerial code~ _ you. i will move onto ministerial code in— you. i will move onto ministerial code~ inyour— you. i will move onto ministerial code. in your opening _ you. i will move onto ministeriall code. in your opening statement, first _ code. in your opening statement, first minister, _ code. in your opening statement, first minister, and _ code. in your opening statement, first minister, and also _ code. in your opening statement, first minister, and also with i code. in your opening statement, first minister, and also with your| first minister, and also with your written _ first minister, and also with your written evidence _ first minister, and also with your written evidence you _ first minister, and also with your written evidence you provided i first minister, and also with your written evidence you provided anj written evidence you provided an account — written evidence you provided an account of— written evidence you provided an account of why _ written evidence you provided an account of why you _ written evidence you provided an account of why you met - written evidence you provided an account of why you met or- written evidence you provided an account of why you met or had i account of why you met or had contact — account of why you met or had contact with _ account of why you met or had contact with mr— account of why you met or had contact with mr salmond. i account of why you met or had contact with mr salmond. canl account of why you met or had i contact with mr salmond. can you briefly— contact with mr salmond. can you briefly take — contact with mr salmond. can you briefly take us _ contact with mr salmond. can you briefly take us through _ contact with mr salmond. can you briefly take us through these i briefly take us through these reasons? _ briefly take us through these reasons? a , , briefly take us through these reasons? , , , reasons? basically, because i was beinu , reasons? basically, because i was bein: , in reasons? basically, because i was being. in summary. _ reasons? basically, because i was being, in summary, i— reasons? basically, because i was being, in summary, i can - reasons? basically, because i was being, in summary, i can go i reasons? basically, because i was being, in summary, i can go into l reasons? basically, because i was. being, in summary, i can go into as much— being, in summary, i can go into as much detail— being, in summary, i can go into as much detailas being, in summary, i can go into as much detail as you want. in summary, because _ much detail as you want. in summary, because i_ much detail as you want. in summary, because i was— much detail as you want. in summary, because i was being told that he was facing _ because i was being told that he was facing an— because i was being told that he was facing an issue. he was distressed. as i was told, and i don't know what the basis _ as i was told, and i don't know what the basis of— as i was told, and i don't know what the basis of this was, he may have

been _ the basis of this was, he may have been considering stepping aside, resigning — been considering stepping aside, resigning from snp membership, so as alex, is _ resigning from snp membership, so as alex, is a _ resigning from snp membership, so as alex, is a party leader, that was the basis — alex, is a party leader, that was the basis on which i chose to meet him. _ the basis on which i chose to meet him. it— the basis on which i chose to meet him. it out— the basis on which i chose to meet him. it out in— the basis on which i chose to meet him, it out in the my written evidence _ him, it out in the my written evidence that that was the basis. the decision i then took from that, around _ the decision i then took from that, around not — the decision i then took from that, around not immediately notifying that under the ministerial code, and isuspect— that under the ministerial code, and i suspect i_ that under the ministerial code, and i suspect i am slightly responsible for this— i suspect i am slightly responsible for this myself, because i talk a lot about — for this myself, because i talk a lot about the party basis of that, that decision wasn't really based on the classification of the meeting, that was— the classification of the meeting, that was down to a consideration of how best _ that was down to a consideration of how best i — that was down to a consideration of how best i protected the independence and the confidentiality of the _ independence and the confidentiality of the process, and i go into that in my— of the process, and i go into that in my written evidence, and i touched _ in my written evidence, and i touched on it in my opening statement today.— touched on it in my opening statement today. touched on it in my opening statement toda . ~ . , ., statement today. what, in your view, was mr salmond's _ statement today. what, in your view, was mr salmond's motivation - statement today. what, in your view, was mr salmond's motivation for i was mr salmond's motivation for attending? — was mr salmond's motivation for attending? l— was mr salmond's motivation for attendin: ? ~ ., attending? i think when he got there, attending? i think when he got there. and _ attending? i think when he got there, and we _ attending? i think when he got there, and we had _ attending? i think when he got there, and we had a _ attending? i think when he gotj there, and we had a discussion attending? i think when he got i there, and we had a discussion on there, and we had a discussion on the 2nd _ there, and we had a discussion on the 2nd of— there, and we had a discussion on the 2nd of april, it is as he set

out. _ the 2nd of april, it is as he set out. he — the 2nd of april, it is as he set out, he wanted me to intervene initially— out, he wanted me to intervene initially to — out, he wanted me to intervene initially to try to bring about a process— initially to try to bring about a process of mediation. i believe that. _ process of mediation. i believe that. i— process of mediation. i believe that, i didn't believe, i knew i was seeing _ that, i didn't believe, i knew i was seeing him — that, i didn't believe, i knew i was seeing him in the party personal space. _ seeing him in the party personal space. but— seeing him in the party personal space, but he clearly had a different _ space, but he clearly had a different objective, coming into that. _ different objective, coming into that. and — different objective, coming into that, and when we had that discussion on the 2nd of april, it very— discussion on the 2nd of april, it very quickly became clear to me that what i _ very quickly became clear to me that what i had _ very quickly became clear to me that what i had thought he might be about to do was— what i had thought he might be about to do was not the case, and i thought— to do was not the case, and i thought it _ to do was not the case, and i thought it was not appropriate for me to _ thought it was not appropriate for me to intervene in the way that he was asking — me to intervene in the way that he was asking me to do. you know, this whole _ was asking me to do. you know, this whole issue — was asking me to do. you know, this whole issue of, i mean, i heard him rebut— whole issue of, i mean, i heard him rebut it. _ whole issue of, i mean, i heard him rebut it. and — whole issue of, i mean, i heard him rebut it, and perhaps he never had any intention of resigning, but it was put — any intention of resigning, but it was put to— any intention of resigning, but it was put to me that he was potentially considering that, given that he _ potentially considering that, given that he was handling a difficult

situation. i don't know whetherjeff aberdeen— situation. i don't know whetherjeff aberdeen who told me that was telling — aberdeen who told me that was telling me because alec had told him that, telling me because alec had told him that. or— telling me because alec had told him that, orwhether telling me because alec had told him that, or whether it was just geoff cross— that, or whether it was just geoff cross maximising, but that was something that i thought was a prospect— something that i thought was a prospect or a possibility. knowing alec as— prospect or a possibility. knowing alec as i— prospect or a possibility. knowing alec as i did, and knowing alec as many— alec as i did, and knowing alec as many of— alec as i did, and knowing alec as many of you — alec as i did, and knowing alec as many of you do, one thing you always have in— many of you do, one thing you always have in your— many of you do, one thing you always have in your mind about alec is that he doesn't — have in your mind about alec is that he doesn't do the expected thing, so initially— he doesn't do the expected thing, so initially facing a difficult situation did i think it was credible _ situation did i think it was credible he would decide to handle it by saying i will stand down from the party— it by saying i will stand down from the party to clear my name, i thought— the party to clear my name, i thought it _ the party to clear my name, i thought it was credible. to be perfectly— thought it was credible. to be perfectly honest, that was something that stayed in my mind for longer, that stayed in my mind for longer, that although after speaking to him on the _ that although after speaking to him on the 2nd of april it was clear that— on the 2nd of april it was clear that he — on the 2nd of april it was clear that he wanted to deal with it in a particular— that he wanted to deal with it in a particular way, that he wanted to deal with it in a particularway, so that he wanted to deal with it in a particular way, so that it didn't become — particular way, so that it didn't become public or anything, there was always— become public or anything, there was always a _ become public or anything, there was always a thing in my mind that if alec— always a thing in my mind that if

alec had — always a thing in my mind that if alec had got to the point where he thought— alec had got to the point where he thought that was not going to be possible. — thought that was not going to be possible, there was always a prospect _ possible, there was always a prospect he would try to take control— prospect he would try to take control of the narrative and handle it in a _ control of the narrative and handle it in a different way, wasjust control of the narrative and handle it in a different way, was just a factor— it in a different way, was just a factor that— it in a different way, was just a factor that was in my mind throughout that period from him, from _ throughout that period from him, from that— throughout that period from him, from that meeting of 2nd of april through— from that meeting of 2nd of april through that summer.— from that meeting of 2nd of april through that summer. thank you for that. you have _ through that summer. thank you for that. you have described _ through that summer. thank you for that. you have described meeting i through that summer. thank you for| that. you have described meeting mr salmond _ that. you have described meeting mr salmond on — that. you have described meeting mr salmond on more _ that. you have described meeting mr salmond on more than _ that. you have described meeting mr salmond on more than one _ that. you have described meeting mr salmond on more than one occasion, certainly— salmond on more than one occasion, certainly on _ salmond on more than one occasion, certainly on one _ salmond on more than one occasion, certainly on one of— salmond on more than one occasion, certainly on one of those _ salmond on more than one occasion, certainly on one of those particular i certainly on one of those particular occasions. — certainly on one of those particular occasions. you _ certainly on one of those particular occasions, you have _ certainly on one of those particular occasions, you have put _ certainly on one of those particular occasions, you have put in - certainly on one of those particular occasions, you have put in your. occasions, you have put in your evidence — occasions, you have put in your evidence that _ occasions, you have put in your evidence that you _ occasions, you have put in your evidence that you don't - occasions, you have put in your evidence that you don't want i occasions, you have put in yourj evidence that you don't want to occasions, you have put in your. evidence that you don't want to be cornered _ evidence that you don't want to be cornered by— evidence that you don't want to be cornered by mr— evidence that you don't want to be cornered by mr salmond _ evidence that you don't want to be cornered by mr salmond at - evidence that you don't want to be cornered by mr salmond at an i cornered by mr salmond at an upcoming _ cornered by mr salmond at an upcoming party— cornered by mr salmond at an upcoming party conference, i cornered by mr salmond at an i upcoming party conference, which cornered by mr salmond at an - upcoming party conference, which you thought— upcoming party conference, which you thought might — upcoming party conference, which you thought might occur— upcoming party conference, which you thought might occur if— upcoming party conference, which you thought might occur if you _ upcoming party conference, which you thought might occur if you hadn't i thought might occur if you hadn't discussed — thought might occur if you hadn't discussed the _ thought might occur if you hadn't discussed the matter— thought might occur if you hadn't discussed the matter with - thought might occur if you hadn't discussed the matter with him i discussed the matter with him beforehand. _ discussed the matter with him beforehand. what _ discussed the matter with him beforehand. what do - discussed the matter with him beforehand. what do you i discussed the matter with himi beforehand. what do you mean discussed the matter with him i beforehand. what do you mean by cornered? — beforehand. what do you mean by cornered? lt— beforehand. what do you mean by cornered? ., ., , cornered? it might not have been the best word to — cornered? it might not have been the best word to use. _ cornered? it might not have been the best word to use. you _ cornered? it might not have been the best word to use. you know - cornered? it might not have been the best word to use. you know what i cornered? it might not have been the| best word to use. you know what snp conferences _ best word to use. you know what snp conferences are like, just to deal with the — conferences are like, just to deal with the chronology of this, this was after— with the chronology of this, this was after i — with the chronology of this, this was after i had become, certainly the prospect in my mind had become

much _ the prospect in my mind had become much more _ the prospect in my mind had become much more serious, that he was contemplating legal action against the government, and that was the point _ the government, and that was the point at _ the government, and that was the point at which notwithstanding my reasons _ point at which notwithstanding my reasons for not telling the permanent secretary beforehand, i decided _ permanent secretary beforehand, i decided i_ permanent secretary beforehand, i decided i had to tell the permanent secretary. — decided i had to tell the permanent secretary, because of that threat of le-al secretary, because of that threat of legal action, and that's what i did ithink— legal action, and that's what i did i think on— legal action, and that's what i did i think on the 6th ofjune. i told her in— i think on the 6th ofjune. i told her in the — i think on the 6th ofjune. i told her in the letter i wrote her that i would _ her in the letter i wrote her that i would make alec aware that i had told her— would make alec aware that i had told her and reiterated i would not intervene. — told her and reiterated i would not intervene. so that was the purpose of that _ intervene. so that was the purpose of that meeting. we had the party conference at the end of that week, and i_ conference at the end of that week, and i assumed he was going to be there. _ and i assumed he was going to be there, actually he wasn't, but i assumed — there, actually he wasn't, but i assumed he would be. i didn't want that discussion potentially to happen— that discussion potentially to happen in an ad hoc way, i wanted that to _ happen in an ad hoc way, i wanted that to be — happen in an ad hoc way, i wanted that to be planned. so i arranged to meet _ that to be planned. so i arranged to meet him _ that to be planned. so i arranged to meet him to effectively say i have told the _ meet him to effectively say i have told the permanent secretary i'm not going _ told the permanent secretary i'm not going to _ told the permanent secretary i'm not going to intervene. i'm summarising here obviously, that was the meeting at which _ here obviously, that was the meeting at which she wanted me to take away

at which she wanted me to take away a draft _ at which she wanted me to take away a draft petition forjudicial review. _ a draft petition forjudicial review, which i didn't think was appropriate for me to do. thank you. accordin: appropriate for me to do. thank you. according to — appropriate for me to do. thank you. according to your _ appropriate for me to do. thank you. according to your evidence, - appropriate for me to do. thank you. according to your evidence, the i according to your evidence, the first time — according to your evidence, the first time that _ according to your evidence, the first time that you _ according to your evidence, the first time that you actually- according to your evidence, the first time that you actually sawi according to your evidence, the i first time that you actually saw the allegations — first time that you actually saw the allegations against _ first time that you actually saw the allegations against mr— first time that you actually saw the allegations against mr salmond i first time that you actually saw the allegations against mr salmond onj allegations against mr salmond on the scottish— allegations against mr salmond on the scottish government's - allegations against mr salmond on i the scottish government's complaints procedure _ the scottish government's complaints procedure was — the scottish government's complaints procedure was in _ the scottish government's complaints procedure was in the _ the scottish government's complaints procedure was in the meeting - the scottish government's complaints procedure was in the meeting on- the scottish government's complaints procedure was in the meeting on the| procedure was in the meeting on the 2nd of— procedure was in the meeting on the 2nd of april— procedure was in the meeting on the 2nd of april in— procedure was in the meeting on the 2nd of april in your _ procedure was in the meeting on the 2nd of april in your house. _ procedure was in the meeting on the 2nd of april in your house. he - 2nd of april in your house. he described _ 2nd of april in your house. he described him _ 2nd of april in your house. he described him as _ 2nd of april in your house. he described him as a _ 2nd of april in your house. he described him as a friend i 2nd of april in your house. he described him as a friend of. 2nd of april in your house. he i described him as a friend of some 2nd of april in your house. he - described him as a friend of some 30 years. _ described him as a friend of some 30 years. as _ described him as a friend of some 30 years. as you — described him as a friend of some 30 years. as you have _ described him as a friend of some 30 years, as you have done _ described him as a friend of some 30 years, as you have done some - described him as a friend of some 30 years, as you have done some —— i described him as a friend of some 30 i years, as you have done some —— done so on _ years, as you have done some —— done so on numerous — years, as you have done some —— done so on numerous occasions _ years, as you have done some —— done so on numerous occasions today, - years, as you have done some —— done so on numerous occasions today, and i so on numerous occasions today, and ithink— so on numerous occasions today, and i think you _ so on numerous occasions today, and i think you have — so on numerous occasions today, and i think you have described _ so on numerous occasions today, and i think you have described learning i i think you have described learning of the _ i think you have described learning of the come — i think you have described learning of the come and _ i think you have described learning of the come and i— i think you have described learning of the come and i quote, - i think you have described learning of the come and i quote, the - i think you have described learning of the come and i quote, the goryl of the come and i quote, the gory detail. _ of the come and i quote, the gory detail. i_ of the come and i quote, the gory detail, i think— of the come and i quote, the gory detail, ithinkthat_ of the come and i quote, the gory detail, i think that is— of the come and i quote, the gory detail, i think that is from - of the come and i quote, the gory detail, i think that is from a - of the come and i quote, the gory detail, i think that is from a press report. _ detail, i think that is from a press report. some _ detail, i think that is from a press report, some alleged _ detail, i think that is from a press report, some alleged press - detail, i think that is from a press- report, some alleged press comments from you. _ report, some alleged press comments from you. of— report, some alleged press comments from you. of these _ report, some alleged press comments from you, of these allegations. - report, some alleged press comments from you, of these allegations. can i from you, of these allegations. can you expand — from you, of these allegations. can you expand on— from you, of these allegations. can you expand on that, _ from you, of these allegations. can you expand on that, please? - from you, of these allegations. can you expand on that, please? i- from you, of these allegations. can you expand on that, please? lwilll you expand on that, please? i will not expand _ you expand on that, please? i will not expand on _ you expand on that, please? i will not expand on it _ you expand on that, please? i will not expand on it very _ you expand on that, please? i will not expand on it very much i you expand on that, please?“ not expand on it very much because i suspect— not expand on it very much because i suspect the _ not expand on it very much because i suspect the convener will stop me because _ suspect the convener will stop me because we will be straying into territory — because we will be straying into territory that is not the remit of the committee, he showed me the letter— the committee, he showed me the letter he _ the committee, he showed me the letter he had from the permanent secretary. — letter he had from the permanent secretary, which set out the details of the _ secretary, which set out the details of the complaints that had been made against _ of the complaints that had been made against him. they were distressing and upsetting details, but he then,

and upsetting details, but he then, and it— and upsetting details, but he then, and it goes— and upsetting details, but he then, and it goes back to what i said earlier— and it goes back to what i said earlier on. _ and it goes back to what i said earlier on, one of the incidence was an incident— earlier on, one of the incidence was an incident he was aware of, that he had apologised to somebody for at the time. — had apologised to somebody for at the time, so he gave me his account of that— the time, so he gave me his account of that incident, it should be very clear— of that incident, it should be very clear he _ of that incident, it should be very clear he denied the specifics of the allegation, in the sense that there was anything that wasn't consensual in it, was anything that wasn't consensual in it. but— was anything that wasn't consensual in it. but he — was anything that wasn't consensual in it, but he gave me his account, and my— in it, but he gave me his account, and my view— in it, but he gave me his account, and my view is that his account constituted behaviour that was not appropriate for the first minister. but i _ appropriate for the first minister. but i probably shouldn't go into any more _ but i probably shouldn't go into any more detail than that.— but i probably shouldn't go into any more detail than that. thank you. mr salmon's account _ more detail than that. thank you. mr salmon's account of _ more detail than that. thank you. mr salmon's account of what _ more detail than that. thank you. mr salmon's account of what happened i salmon's account of what happened when _ salmon's account of what happened when you _ salmon's account of what happened when you met — salmon's account of what happened when you met and _ salmon's account of what happened when you met and he _ salmon's account of what happened when you met and he brought - salmon's account of what happened when you met and he brought up. salmon's account of what happened i when you met and he brought up the complaints— when you met and he brought up the complaints against— when you met and he brought up the complaints against him _ when you met and he brought up the complaints against him was - when you met and he brought up the complaints against him was that i when you met and he brought up the complaints against him was that you| complaints against him was that you said, complaints against him was that you said. and _ complaints against him was that you said. and i_ complaints against him was that you said. and l guote. _ complaints against him was that you said, and i quote, i— complaints against him was that you said, and i quote, iwant— complaints against him was that you said, and i quote, i want to - complaints against him was that you said, and i quote, i want to assist, i said, and i quote, i want to assist, which _ said, and i quote, i want to assist, which he _ said, and i quote, i want to assist, which he took— said, and i quote, i want to assist, which he took that _ said, and i quote, i want to assist, which he took that to _ said, and i quote, i want to assist, which he took that to mean - said, and i quote, i want to assist, which he took that to mean that i said, and i quote, i want to assist, i which he took that to mean that you would _ which he took that to mean that you would intervene _ which he took that to mean that you would intervene to _ which he took that to mean that you would intervene to advocate - which he took that to mean that you would intervene to advocate for i would intervene to advocate for mediation — would intervene to advocate for mediation in _ would intervene to advocate for mediation in the _ would intervene to advocate for mediation in the first _ would intervene to advocate for mediation in the first instance. i mediation in the first instance. what _ mediation in the first instance. what is — mediation in the first instance. what is your— mediation in the first instance. what is your response - mediation in the first instance. what is your response to - mediation in the first instance. what is your response to mr i mediation in the first instance. - what is your response to mr salmond because _ what is your response to mr salmond because my— what is your response to mr salmond because my comments? _ what is your response to mr salmond because my comments? i— what is your response to mr salmond because my comments?— because my comments? i thinki answered this _ because my comments? i thinki

answered this in _ because my comments? i thinki answered this in response i because my comments? i thinki answered this in response to i because my comments? i think i i answered this in response to andy whiteman. — answered this in response to andy whiteman. ijust want to paint a picture. — whiteman. ijust want to paint a picture, give people the context here. _ picture, give people the context here. i— picture, give people the context here. i am — picture, give people the context here. i am sitting picture, give people the context here. iam sitting in picture, give people the context here. i am sitting in my house, we are talking — here. i am sitting in my house, we are talking the 2nd of april, it was easter— are talking the 2nd of april, it was easter monday. the man that i had worked _ easter monday. the man that i had worked with, been friends with in my earlier— worked with, been friends with in my earlier years — worked with, been friends with in my earlier years had looked up to so much _ earlier years had looked up to so much had — earlier years had looked up to so much had just told me something pretty— much had just told me something pretty shocking. my head was spinning, i was dealing with complicated emotions. you are sitting — complicated emotions. you are sitting with a friend who is saying, in facing _ sitting with a friend who is saying, in facing this terrible situation. things— in facing this terrible situation. things like, i would love to help if i things like, i would love to help if i could. _ things like, i would love to help if i could, kind of thing, it is entirely— i could, kind of thing, it is entirely possible you save these kind of— entirely possible you save these kind of things. this is a human situation — kind of things. this is a human situation we are talking about it now as — situation we are talking about it now as a — situation we are talking about it now as a political scrutiny situation, which is absolutely proper. — situation, which is absolutely proper, but in the moment this was a human— proper, but in the moment this was a human situation between two people that knew _ human situation between two people that knew each other really well. and i_ that knew each other really well. and i was. — that knew each other really well. and i was, i think i describe this to andy— and i was, i think i describe this to andy whiteman, i, from the minute isaw— to andy whiteman, i, from the minute i saw the _ to andy whiteman, i, from the minute i saw the letter, i knew that it would — i saw the letter, i knew that it would not _ i saw the letter, i knew that it would not be appropriate for me to

intervene. — would not be appropriate for me to intervene. i— would not be appropriate for me to intervene. i probably was trying to come _ intervene. i probably was trying to come you — intervene. i probably was trying to come you know, soften that for him, may be _ come you know, soften that for him, may be from — come you know, soften that for him, may be from his accounts i soften that too _ may be from his accounts i soften that too much. i was also thinking about. _ that too much. i was also thinking about. in— that too much. i was also thinking about, in realtime, you know, is there _ about, in realtime, you know, is there anything i have to do? do i have _ there anything i have to do? do i have to _ there anything i have to do? do i have to report this to anybody? so all of— have to report this to anybody? so all of that— have to report this to anybody? so all of that was going through my head. _ all of that was going through my head. as — all of that was going through my head, as we were having this discussion, but i did not intervene, because _ discussion, but i did not intervene, because for— discussion, but i did not intervene, because for the reasons i set out very of— because for the reasons i set out very of the — because for the reasons i set out very of the human lead to margaret mitchell. _ very of the human lead to margaret mitchell. i— very of the human lead to margaret mitchell, i don't think that would have _ mitchell, i don't think that would have been appropriate for me to do. the other— have been appropriate for me to do. the other thing i would just say is what _ the other thing i would just say is what i _ the other thing i would just say is what i have — the other thing i would just say is what i have just described to you there _ what i have just described to you there is— what i have just described to you there is also kind of demonstrates this was— there is also kind of demonstrates this was not the detail of this was not something that i had three days to kind _ not something that i had three days to kind of— not something that i had three days to kind of think about, because i was thinking about it really in real time. _ was thinking about it really in real time. so— was thinking about it really in real time, ., was thinking about it really in real time. ., ., was thinking about it really in real time. ., . , ,, . time. so from the human perspective, is that the reason _ time. so from the human perspective, is that the reason why _ time. so from the human perspective, is that the reason why you _

time. so from the human perspective, is that the reason why you met - time. so from the human perspective, is that the reason why you met mr i is that the reason why you met mr salmond _ is that the reason why you met mr salmond on — is that the reason why you met mr salmond on a _ is that the reason why you met mr salmond on a few— is that the reason why you met mr salmond on a few occasions - is that the reason why you met mr| salmond on a few occasions after? well. _ salmond on a few occasions after? well. i_ salmond on a few occasions after? well. i met— salmond on a few occasions after? well. i met him _ salmond on a few occasions after? well, i met him twice _ salmond on a few occasions after? well, i met him twice after- salmond on a few occasions after? well, i met him twice after that. i well, i met him twice after that. the 7th — well, i met him twice after that. the 7th of— well, i met him twice after that. the 7th ofjune ahead of the snp conference i think we have already talked _ conference i think we have already talked about, the third and final time _ talked about, the third and final time i_ talked about, the third and final time i met him, in fact i think it is the— time i met him, in fact i think it is the final— time i met him, in fact i think it is the final time i met him,., time i met him, in fact i think it is the finaltime i met him,., is the 13th — is the finaltime i met him,., is the 13th of— is the finaltime i met him,., is the 13th ofjuly, round about that july date. — the 13th ofjuly, round about that july date. and if i am being very reflective. — july date. and if i am being very reflective, you know, that is probably— reflective, you know, that is probably the meeting i think, why did i probably the meeting i think, why did i meet— probably the meeting i think, why did i meet him again here? it was still very— did i meet him again here? it was still very much in the personal party— still very much in the personal party space. i go back to what i said _ party space. i go back to what i said earlier— party space. i go back to what i said earlier on, if he was sitting here _ said earlier on, if he was sitting here earlier on he would say don't be daft. _ here earlier on he would say don't be daft. i— here earlier on he would say don't be daft, i would never do that, but there _ be daft, i would never do that, but there was— be daft, i would never do that, but there was always the thing in my head. _ there was always the thing in my head. if— there was always the thing in my head. if he — there was always the thing in my head, if he gets to a point where he doesn't _ head, if he gets to a point where he doesn't think he can stop this in the way— doesn't think he can stop this in the way he _ doesn't think he can stop this in the way he is trying to come he just does _ the way he is trying to come he just does the _ the way he is trying to come he just does the kind of alex salmond press conference, so i guess ijust wanted to know—

conference, so i guess ijust wanted to know that i wasn't suddenly facing — to know that i wasn't suddenly facing that at some stage, and you know. _ facing that at some stage, and you know. this — facing that at some stage, and you know, this is may be the most ironic thing _ know, this is may be the most ironic thing of— know, this is may be the most ironic thing of all. — know, this is may be the most ironic thing of all, probably at that stage i thing of all, probably at that stage i was _ thing of all, probably at that stage i was still— thing of all, probably at that stage i was still a bit concerned about him. _ i was still a bit concerned about him. so — i was still a bit concerned about him. so l'm _ i was still a bit concerned about him, so i'm sitting here facing all of this— him, so i'm sitting here facing all of this and — him, so i'm sitting here facing all of this and being accused of being part of— of this and being accused of being part of a _ of this and being accused of being part of a grand conspiracy against him. _ part of a grand conspiracy against him, actually some of what has probably— him, actually some of what has probably led me into trouble was i was concerned about him, so that is why i_ was concerned about him, so that is why i kind _ was concerned about him, so that is why l kind of— was concerned about him, so that is why i kind of met him injuly. at that point, he was putting to me a belief— at that point, he was putting to me a belief and i don't know whether it was a _ a belief and i don't know whether it was a genuine belief he had or whether— was a genuine belief he had or whether it was a device to try and draw— whether it was a device to try and draw me — whether it was a device to try and draw me in— whether it was a device to try and draw me in that i was blocking arbitration, which was not the case because _ arbitration, which was not the case because i_ arbitration, which was not the case because i wasn't part of the discussion.— because i wasn't part of the discussion. ., ,, g ., discussion. thank you. my final question- _ discussion. thank you. my final question. last _ discussion. thank you. my final question. last week, _ discussion. thank you. my final question. last week, alex i discussion. thank you. my final - question. last week, alex salmond said and _ question. last week, alex salmond said and i_ question. last week, alex salmond said and i quote, _ question. last week, alex salmond said and i quote, my— question. last week, alex salmond said and i quote, my view- question. last week, alex salmond said and i quote, my view that- question. last week, alex salmondl said and i quote, my view that there are times _ said and i quote, my view that there are times in — said and i quote, my view that there are times in life _ said and i quote, my view that there are times in life as _ said and i quote, my view that there are times in life as first _ said and i quote, my view that there are times in life as first minister- are times in life as first minister that we — are times in life as first minister that we cannot _ are times in life as first minister that we cannot assist _ are times in life as first minister that we cannot assist because i are times in life as first minister. that we cannot assist because that would _ that we cannot assist because that would be _ that we cannot assist because that would be diametrically— that we cannot assist because that would be diametrically opposed i that we cannot assist because that would be diametrically opposed to| would be diametrically opposed to something — would be diametrically opposed to something that _ would be diametrically opposed to

something that you _ would be diametrically opposed to something that you have - would be diametrically opposed to something that you have to - would be diametrically opposed to something that you have to abidei would be diametrically opposed to i something that you have to abide by. do you _ something that you have to abide by. do you agree? — something that you have to abide by. do you agree?— do you agree? yes. not surprisingly, he was putting _ do you agree? yes. not surprisingly, he was putting forward _ do you agree? yes. not surprisingly, he was putting forward the _ do you agree? yes. not surprisingly, he was putting forward the view- do you agree? yes. not surprisingly, he was putting forward the view that | he was putting forward the view that this was— he was putting forward the view that this was an — he was putting forward the view that this was an occasion, whether that wasn't _ this was an occasion, whether that wasn't the — this was an occasion, whether that wasn't the case and i shouldn't have done _ wasn't the case and i shouldn't have done t'm _ wasn't the case and i shouldn't have done t'm hot— wasn't the case and i shouldn't have done. i'm not going to rehearse everything _ done. i'm not going to rehearse everything that i said to margaret mitchett — everything that i said to margaret mitchell. but i don't think i should have intervened. the nature of this was more _ have intervened. the nature of this was more complex than that but i would _ was more complex than that but i would not — was more complex than that but i would not have been right me to do it and _ would not have been right me to do it and that's — would not have been right me to do it and that's why i didn't. first minister. _ it and that's why i didn't. first minister. l — it and that's why i didn't. first minister, i too _ it and that's why i didn't. first minister, i too would - it and that's why i didn't. first minister, i too would like - it and that's why i didn't. first minister, i too would like to focus of the _ minister, i too would like to focus of the meetings _ minister, i too would like to focus of the meetings on _ minister, i too would like to focus of the meetings on the _ minister, i too would like to focus of the meetings on the 29th - minister, i too would like to focus of the meetings on the 29th of. minister, i too would like to focus - of the meetings on the 29th of march and april— of the meetings on the 29th of march and april 2018~ — of the meetings on the 29th of march and april 2018. can _ of the meetings on the 29th of march and april 2018. can i _ of the meetings on the 29th of march and april 2018. can ijust— of the meetings on the 29th of march and april 2018. can ijust start - of the meetings on the 29th of march and april 2018. can ijust start by- and april 2018. can ijust start by confirming — and april 2018. can ijust start by confirming something _ and april 2018. can ijust start by confirming something that - and april 2018. can ijust start by confirming something that you i and april 2018. can ijust start by. confirming something that you told us in your— confirming something that you told us in your written _ confirming something that you told us in your written evidence - confirming something that you told us in your written evidence that - confirming something that you told | us in your written evidence that you had no _ us in your written evidence that you had no idea — us in your written evidence that you had no idea that _ us in your written evidence that you had no idea that you _ us in your written evidence that you had no idea that you are _ us in your written evidence that you had no idea that you are going - us in your written evidence that you had no idea that you are going to i had no idea that you are going to meet _ had no idea that you are going to meet geoff— had no idea that you are going to meet geoff aberdein _ had no idea that you are going to meet geoff aberdein until- had no idea that you are going to

meet geoff aberdein until he - meet geoff aberdein until he appeared _ meet geoff aberdein until he appeared on— meet geoff aberdein until he appeared on march— meet geoff aberdein until he appeared on march the - meet geoff aberdein until he| appeared on march the 29th? meet geoff aberdein until he l appeared on march the 29th? i meet geoff aberdein until he appeared on march the 29th? i didn't know for certain. _ appeared on march the 29th? i didn't know for certain. i _ appeared on march the 29th? i didn't know for certain. i had _ appeared on march the 29th? i didn't know for certain. i had been - appeared on march the 29th? i didn't know for certain. i had been told - know for certain. i had been told that he _ know for certain. i had been told that he wanted to see me and that he was in _ that he wanted to see me and that he was in parliament that day. that was probably— was in parliament that day. that was probably the night before or probably the night before or probably the night before or probably the day off but it was a he might— probably the day off but it was a he might be _ probably the day off but it was a he might be in parliament and wants to talk to— might be in parliament and wants to talk to you — might be in parliament and wants to talk to you. i didn't know for certain— talk to you. i didn't know for certain that he was going to be in parliament. but certain that he was going to be in parliament-— parliament. but you are partially --reared parliament. but you are partially prepared for _ parliament. but you are partially prepared for it. _ parliament. but you are partially prepared for it. and _ parliament. but you are partially prepared for it. and geoff- parliament. but you are partially i prepared for it. and geoff aberdein didn't— prepared for it. and geoff aberdein didn't say— prepared for it. and geoff aberdein didn't say anything _ prepared for it. and geoff aberdein didn't say anything about _ prepared for it. and geoff aberdein didn't say anything about the - didn't say anything about the meeting _ didn't say anything about the meeting goals _ didn't say anything about the meeting goals as _ didn't say anything about the meeting goals as you - didn't say anything about the meeting goals as you know, i didn't say anything about the i meeting goals as you know, it didn't say anything about the - meeting goals as you know, it has been _ meeting goals as you know, it has been the — meeting goals as you know, it has been the subject _ meeting goals as you know, it has been the subject of— meeting goals as you know, it has been the subject of comments. i i been the subject of comments. didn't remember this meeting. been the subject of comments." didn't remember this meeting. my recollection of this meeting is still not — recollection of this meeting is still not as good as it should be. he stepped into my office and he indicated — he stepped into my office and he indicated that there was harassment and to— indicated that there was harassment and to the _ indicated that there was harassment

and to the best of my recollection, it was— and to the best of my recollection, it was in— and to the best of my recollection, it was in general terms. what i remember— it was in general terms. what i remember most strongly was about how worried _ remember most strongly was about how worried he _ remember most strongly was about how worried he was about alex salmond. the purpose of the discussion was to -et the purpose of the discussion was to get me _ the purpose of the discussion was to get me to _ the purpose of the discussion was to get me to agree to see alex salmond. i do get me to agree to see alex salmond. i do agree _ get me to agree to see alex salmond. i do agree i_ get me to agree to see alex salmond. i do agree. i did agree in that meeting _ i do agree. i did agree in that meeting to see him. so, in a sense the 2nd _ meeting to see him. so, in a sense the 2nd of— meeting to see him. so, in a sense the 2nd of april meeting was agreed on the _ the 2nd of april meeting was agreed on the 29th of march. i don't think the date _ on the 29th of march. i don't think the date was confirmed until over the date was confirmed until over the weekend but i did agree to see him. the weekend but i did agree to see him that's — the weekend but i did agree to see him. that's what i recall. there was an issue. _ him. that's what i recall. there was an issue. it— him. that's what i recall. there was an issue, it was serious, he was really— an issue, it was serious, he was really worried about alex and i needed — really worried about alex and i needed to see him. my best recollection of that was that it was in general— recollection of that was that it was in general terms. 30, recollection of that was that it was in general terms.— in generalterms. so, despite limited information, - in generalterms. so, despite limited information, you - in general terms. so, despite| limited information, you agree in general terms. so, despite - limited information, you agree to drop everything _ limited information, you agree to drop everything and _ limited information, you agree to drop everything and meet- limited information, you agree to drop everything and meet him . limited information, you agree to. drop everything and meet him four days later— drop everything and meet him four days later and _ drop everything and meet him four days later and you _ drop everything and meet him four days later and you have _ drop everything and meet him four days later and you have just - drop everything and meet him four days later and you have just said . days later and you have just said that that — days later and you have just said that that was _ days later and you have just said that that was for _ days later and you have just said that that was for two _ days later and you have just said that that was for two reasons - days later and you have just said that that was for two reasons ini that that was for two reasons in particular. _ that that was for two reasons in particular, number— that that was for two reasons in particular, number one, - that that was for two reasons in particular, number one, it- that that was for two reasons in particular, number one, it wasi particular, number one, it was personal— particular, number one, it was personal because _ particular, number one, it was personal because he _ particular, number one, it was personal because he was - particular, number one, it was personal because he was in i particular, number one, it was personal because he was in a i personal because he was in a

profound _ personal because he was in a profound degree _ personal because he was in a profound degree of— personal because he was in a profound degree of stress i personal because he was in a l profound degree of stress and personal because he was in a i profound degree of stress and the second _ profound degree of stress and the second was— profound degree of stress and the second was that _ profound degree of stress and the second was that you _ profound degree of stress and the second was that you were - profound degree of stress and the second was that you were told i profound degree of stress and the second was that you were told byl second was that you were told by geoff— second was that you were told by geoff aberdein _ second was that you were told by geoff aberdein that _ second was that you were told by geoff aberdein that he _ second was that you were told by geoff aberdein that he might i second was that you were told by| geoff aberdein that he might well resign— geoff aberdein that he might well resign from — geoff aberdein that he might well resign from the _ geoff aberdein that he might well resign from the snp. _ geoff aberdein that he might well resign from the snp. alex - geoff aberdein that he might well i resign from the snp. alex salmond was very— resign from the snp. alex salmond was very strident _ resign from the snp. alex salmond was very strident in _ resign from the snp. alex salmond was very strident in saying - resign from the snp. alex salmond was very strident in saying that i was very strident in saying that resignation _ was very strident in saying that resignation was _ was very strident in saying that resignation was the _ was very strident in saying that resignation was the very- was very strident in saying that resignation was the very last i was very strident in saying that i resignation was the very last thing on his— resignation was the very last thing on his mind — resignation was the very last thing on his mind stop— resignation was the very last thing on his mind stop what— resignation was the very last thing on his mind stop what informationj on his mind stop what information did geoff— on his mind stop what information did geoff aberdein _ on his mind stop what information did geoff aberdein give _ on his mind stop what information did geoff aberdein give you - did geoff aberdein give you suggesting _ did geoff aberdein give you suggesting otherwise? i did geoff aberdein give you suggesting otherwise? [i did geoff aberdein give you suggesting otherwise? i think it was somethin: suggesting otherwise? i think it was something that _ suggesting otherwise? i think it was something that he _ suggesting otherwise? i think it was something that he said _ suggesting otherwise? i think it was something that he said that - suggesting otherwise? i think it was something that he said that he - suggesting otherwise? i think it was | something that he said that he might resign— something that he said that he might resign and _ something that he said that he might resign and that's what made me think it was— resign and that's what made me think it was a _ resign and that's what made me think it was a serious issue and i needed to speak— it was a serious issue and i needed to speak to— it was a serious issue and i needed to speak to him about it. let me be clear. _ to speak to him about it. let me be clear. within — to speak to him about it. let me be clear, within a very short space of alex _ clear, within a very short space of alex lreing — clear, within a very short space of alex being in my house on april the 2nd, alex being in my house on april the 2nd. it— alex being in my house on april the 2nd. it was— alex being in my house on april the 2nd, it was clear to me that that was not — 2nd, it was clear to me that that was not his— 2nd, it was clear to me that that was not his intention. i don't think i'm describing something here that is not _ i'm describing something here that is not unrecognisable to people, expect— is not unrecognisable to people, expect the unexpected is always something you should do. my final point _ something you should do. my final point is _ something you should do. my final point isjust dropping everything. april the — point isjust dropping everything. april the 2nd was easter monday. i was due _

april the 2nd was easter monday. i was due to — april the 2nd was easter monday. i was due to be at home and my friend of 30 _ was due to be at home and my friend of 30 years— was due to be at home and my friend of 30 years wanted to see me. i agree _ of 30 years wanted to see me. i agree that — of 30 years wanted to see me. i agree that that would be the case. i was due _ agree that that would be the case. i was due to — agree that that would be the case. i was due to be working at home and read chief— was due to be working at home and read chief of staff who was at that meeting _ read chief of staff who was at that meeting was due to be there to see meeting was due to be there to see me because i was off to china later that week — me because i was off to china later that week. it wasn't a drop everything to see alex because it was a _ everything to see alex because it was a meeting that i had agreed to have as _ was a meeting that i had agreed to have as it— was a meeting that i had agreed to have as it was the first and convenient date to do it. this massive and _ convenient date to do it. this massive and devastating fear and believe _ massive and devastating fear and believe that — massive and devastating fear and believe that your _ massive and devastating fear and believe that your mental - massive and devastating fear and believe that your mental 30 i massive and devastating fear and | believe that your mental 30 years was about — believe that your mental 30 years was about to _ believe that your mental 30 years was about to quit _ believe that your mental 30 years was about to quit your _ believe that your mental 30 years was about to quit your party i believe that your mental 30 yearsj was about to quit your party came from _ was about to quit your party came from a _ was about to quit your party came from a meeting _ was about to quit your party came from a meeting that _ was about to quit your party came from a meeting that you - was about to quit your party came from a meeting that you claimed i was about to quit your party came. from a meeting that you claimed to have forgotten _ from a meeting that you claimed to have forgotten all— from a meeting that you claimed to have forgotten all about _ from a meeting that you claimed to have forgotten all about this - from a meeting that you claimed to have forgotten all about this mac i from a meeting that you claimed to| have forgotten all about this mac do you realise — have forgotten all about this mac do you realise how— have forgotten all about this mac do you realise how unlikely— have forgotten all about this mac do you realise how unlikely that - have forgotten all about this mac do you realise how unlikely that sans? i you realise how unlikely that sans? -- that _ you realise how unlikely that sans? -- that sounds _ you realise how unlikely that sans? —— that sounds. [— you realise how unlikely that sans? -- that sounds.— -- that sounds. i do. but that 'ust ha--ens -- that sounds. i do. but that 'ust happens to — -- that sounds. i do. but that 'ust happens to be �* -- that sounds. i do. but that 'ust happens to be the i -- that sounds. i do. but that 'ust happens to be the case. i -- that sounds. i do. but that 'ust happens to be the case. that i -- that sounds. i do. but thatjust l happens to be the case. that wasn't the big _ happens to be the case. that wasn't the big significant meeting. i have tried to _ the big significant meeting. i have tried to explain that with reference to firstly. _ tried to explain that with reference to firstly, my recollection of that discussion— to firstly, my recollection of that discussion in terms of the detail

was general. it wasn't a detailed discussion— was general. it wasn't a detailed discussion in terms of the substance and it— discussion in terms of the substance and it was— discussion in terms of the substance and it was very much, you need to see alex, — and it was very much, you need to see alex, will you agree to see alex? — see alex, will you agree to see alex? he— see alex, will you agree to see alex? he is very distressed and might— alex? he is very distressed and might be — alex? he is very distressed and might be about to resign. and actually. — might be about to resign. and actually, given the nature of my relationship with alex, by that point, — relationship with alex, by that point, we _ relationship with alex, by that point, we weren't seeing each other as often— point, we weren't seeing each other as often as — point, we weren't seeing each other as often as we had once but my relationship was a big issue and i wanted _ relationship was a big issue and i wanted to— relationship was a big issue and i wanted to hear it from him. i wouldn't _ wanted to hear it from him. i wouldn't want to hear it third hand. the other— wouldn't want to hear it third hand. the other point that i think helps explain, — the other point that i think helps explain, certainly helps explain this to — explain, certainly helps explain this to me, because i have asked myself— this to me, because i have asked myself how— this to me, because i have asked myself how could i have forgotten that? _ myself how could i have forgotten that? the — myself how could i have forgotten that? the general concerns, it is not the — that? the general concerns, it is not the first _ that? the general concerns, it is not the first time that i have heard a general— not the first time that i have heard a general concern. the other thing is, what _ a general concern. the other thing is, what happens in my house on the 2nd of— is, what happens in my house on the 2nd of april— is, what happens in my house on the 2nd of april in my dining room with a man— 2nd of april in my dining room with a man that — 2nd of april in my dining room with a man that has been all of these things— a man that has been all of these things to — a man that has been all of these things to me for 30 years was so significant — things to me for 30 years was so significant that that is the thing that will— significant that that is the thing that will live with me forever and

did that — that will live with me forever and did that may be slightly obliterate in my— did that may be slightly obliterate in my mind what came before that? possibly _ in my mind what came before that? possibly. but that is the fact of the matter. sitting there being told notiust_ the matter. sitting there being told not just the complaints the matter. sitting there being told notjust the complaints but the matter. sitting there being told not just the complaints but what the matter. sitting there being told notjust the complaints but what he told me _ notjust the complaints but what he told me in— notjust the complaints but what he told me in terms of his version of that incident is ingrained in my mind — that incident is ingrained in my mind. , ~ , ., ., mind. first minister i want to ask ou mind. first minister i want to ask you about — mind. first minister i want to ask you about your— mind. first minister i want to ask you about your meeting... - mind. first minister i want to ask you about your meeting... you i mind. first minister i want to ask l you about your meeting... you told the daily— you about your meeting... you told the daily record _ you about your meeting... you told the daily record yourself _ you about your meeting... you told the daily record yourself in - you about your meeting... you told the daily record yourself in 2012 i you about your meeting... you told the daily record yourself in 2012 ofi the daily record yourself in 2012 of your relationship— the daily record yourself in 2012 of your relationship with _ the daily record yourself in 2012 of your relationship with him - the daily record yourself in 2012 of your relationship with him that i the daily record yourself in 2012 of| your relationship with him that you 'ust your relationship with him that you just end _ your relationship with him that you just end up — your relationship with him that you just end up talking _ your relationship with him that you just end up talking about _ your relationship with him that you just end up talking about it- your relationship with him that you just end up talking about it all- your relationship with him that you just end up talking about it all the| just end up talking about it all the time and — just end up talking about it all the time and you _ just end up talking about it all the time and you never— just end up talking about it all the time and you never leave - just end up talking about it all the time and you never leave it - just end up talking about it all the time and you never leave it out i just end up talking about it all the time and you never leave it out ofj time and you never leave it out of sight _ time and you never leave it out of sight you — time and you never leave it out of sight you have _ time and you never leave it out of sight. you have been _ time and you never leave it out of sight. you have been very- time and you never leave it out of sight. you have been very clear. time and you never leave it out of. sight. you have been very clear that you met _ sight. you have been very clear that you met alex — sight. you have been very clear that you met alex salmond _ sight. you have been very clear that you met alex salmond that - sight. you have been very clear that you met alex salmond that you i sight. you have been very clear that| you met alex salmond that you were told -- _ you met alex salmond that you were told -- because _ you met alex salmond that you were told —— because you _ you met alex salmond that you were told —— because you were _ you met alex salmond that you were told —— because you were told - you met alex salmond that you were told —— because you were told by- told —— because you were told by geoff— told —— because you were told by geoff aberdein _ told —— because you were told by geoff aberdein that _ told —— because you were told by geoff aberdein that he _ told —— because you were told by geoff aberdein that he might i geoff aberdein that he might possibly— geoff aberdein that he might possibly resign _ geoff aberdein that he might possibly resign from - geoff aberdein that he might possibly resign from the i geoff aberdein that he might possibly resign from the snpj geoff aberdein that he might i possibly resign from the snp and geoff aberdein that he might - possibly resign from the snp and you would _ possibly resign from the snp and you would have _ possibly resign from the snp and you would have to — possibly resign from the snp and you would have to prepare _ possibly resign from the snp and you would have to prepare the _ possibly resign from the snp and you would have to prepare the party i possibly resign from the snp and you would have to prepare the party of i would have to prepare the party of that _ would have to prepare the party of that you — would have to prepare the party of that you said _ would have to prepare the party of that. you said nothing _ would have to prepare the party of that. you said nothing to - would have to prepare the party of that. you said nothing to pee i would have to prepare the party of i that. you said nothing to pee morrow of your— that. you said nothing to pee morrow of your concerns _

—— peter morrow. -- peter morrow. the fact of the matter is. _ -- peter morrow. the fact of the matter is, surely _ -- peter morrow. the fact of the matter is, surely if— -- peter morrow. the fact of the matter is, surely if i _ -- peter morrow. the fact of the matter is, surely if i thought - -- peter morrow. the fact of the | matter is, surely if i thought that he was _ matter is, surely if i thought that he was coming to resign and everything would have to have a handling — everything would have to have a handling plan, iworry everything would have to have a handling plan, i worry that something like that was the case but i wanted _ something like that was the case but i wanted to— something like that was the case but i wanted to speak to him before i said he _ i wanted to speak to him before i said he was running with anybody else _ said he was running with anybody else i_ said he was running with anybody else. i wanted to speak to him confidentially and said that if he had come — confidentially and said that if he had come into my house on the 2nd of april and _ had come into my house on the 2nd of april and said — had come into my house on the 2nd of april and said that i went to resign from _ april and said that i went to resign from the _ april and said that i went to resign from the snp, of course i would have told people _ from the snp, of course i would have told people in the party so that i could _ told people in the party so that i could prepare for that. as it turns out, _ could prepare for that. as it turns out, he _ could prepare for that. as it turns out, he didn't tell me that. and i decided — out, he didn't tell me that. and i decided to— out, he didn't tell me that. and i decided to hear from him what it was that he _ decided to hear from him what it was that he wanted to tell me.— that he wanted to tell me. there are lots of things — that he wanted to tell me. there are lots of things that _ that he wanted to tell me. there are lots of things that the _ that he wanted to tell me. there are lots of things that the people - lots of things that the people watching _ lots of things that the people watching probably— lots of things that the people watching probably don't - lots of things that the people - watching probably don't understand entirely, _ watching probably don't understand entirely, whether— watching probably don't understand entirely, whether that— watching probably don't understand entirely, whether that is— watching probably don't understand entirely, whether that is court- entirely, whether that is court orders — entirely, whether that is court orders or— entirely, whether that is court orders or redacted _

entirely, whether that is court orders or redacted evidence . entirely, whether that is court. orders or redacted evidence and entirely, whether that is court- orders or redacted evidence and so on. orders or redacted evidence and so on they— orders or redacted evidence and so on they do — orders or redacted evidence and so on. they do understand _ orders or redacted evidence and so on. they do understand a - orders or redacted evidence and sol on. they do understand a marriage. if on. they do understand a marriage. if you _ on. they do understand a marriage. if you generally— on. they do understand a marriage. if you generally thought _ on. they do understand a marriage. if you generally thought that - on. they do understand a marriage. if you generally thought that you i if you generally thought that you were _ if you generally thought that you were meeting _ if you generally thought that you were meeting him _ if you generally thought that you were meeting him in— if you generally thought that you were meeting him in a _ if you generally thought that you were meeting him in a party- if you generally thought that you - were meeting him in a party personal space _ were meeting him in a party personal space and _ were meeting him in a party personal space and you — were meeting him in a party personal space and you thought _ were meeting him in a party personal space and you thought that _ were meeting him in a party personal space and you thought that the - were meeting him in a party personal space and you thought that the party| space and you thought that the party was potentially — space and you thought that the party was potentially facing _ space and you thought that the party was potentially facing one _ space and you thought that the party was potentially facing one of- space and you thought that the party was potentially facing one of its - was potentially facing one of its iriggest — was potentially facing one of its biggest threats, _ was potentially facing one of its biggest threats, the _ was potentially facing one of itsi biggest threats, the resignation was potentially facing one of its i biggest threats, the resignation of a nran— biggest threats, the resignation of a nran that — biggest threats, the resignation of a man that effectively _ biggest threats, the resignation of a man that effectively built - biggest threats, the resignation of a man that effectively built it, - biggest threats, the resignation of a man that effectively built it, can| a man that effectively built it, can you believe — a man that effectively built it, can you believe how— a man that effectively built it, can you believe how hard _ a man that effectively built it, can you believe how hard it— a man that effectively built it, can you believe how hard it is- a man that effectively built it, can you believe how hard it is for- you believe how hard it is for people — you believe how hard it is for people to _ you believe how hard it is for people to believe _ you believe how hard it is for people to believe that - you believe how hard it is for people to believe that you i you believe how hard it is forl people to believe that you did you believe how hard it is for- people to believe that you did not tell your — people to believe that you did not tell your husband _ people to believe that you did not tell your husband about _ people to believe that you did not tell your husband about this? - people to believe that you did not tell your husband about this? i i people to believe that you did notl tell your husband about this? i can see how hard _ tell your husband about this? i can see how hard it _ tell your husband about this? i can see how hard it is _ tell your husband about this? i can see how hard it is for _ tell your husband about this? see how hard it is for people to understand. but i would say is that there _ understand. but i would say is that there are _ understand. but i would say is that there are lots of emotions and factors— there are lots of emotions and factors in— there are lots of emotions and factors in this consideration. i had been _ factors in this consideration. i had been given— factors in this consideration. i had been given the impression by geoff aberdein— been given the impression by geoff aberdein that resignation was a possibility. i didn't think it was a certainty — possibility. i didn't think it was a certainty. it was one of the things that nreant— certainty. it was one of the things that meant that i wanted to meet him and hear what the situation was. i wasn't _ and hear what the situation was. i wasn't going on the basis, having not actually heard whether that was in actuality, —— i wasn't going to

send _ in actuality, —— iwasn't going to send nry— in actuality, —— i wasn't going to send my party into crisis mode of having _ send my party into crisis mode of having to — send my party into crisis mode of having to deal with this. he sat in my having to deal with this. he sat in nry roonr — having to deal with this. he sat in my room and said that he was going to resign, _ my room and said that he was going to resign, that would be different. i to resign, that would be different. i wanted _ to resign, that would be different. i wanted to hear from him before i started _ i wanted to hear from him before i started to — i wanted to hear from him before i started to tell everybody else whether there was a problem that we had to— whether there was a problem that we had to be _ whether there was a problem that we had to be dealing with. i'm not sure that's— had to be dealing with. i'm not sure that's impossible for people to understand. so that's impossible for people to understand-— that's impossible for people to understand. . , ., understand. so you have said before. is it not a plausible _ understand. so you have said before. is it not a plausible explanation, - is it not a plausible explanation, first _ is it not a plausible explanation, first minister, _ is it not a plausible explanation, first minister, to— is it not a plausible explanation, first minister, to those - is it not a plausible explanation, first minister, to those who - is it not a plausible explanation, first minister, to those who are| first minister, to those who are watching — first minister, to those who are watching that _ first minister, to those who are watching that you _ first minister, to those who are watching that you actually- first minister, to those who arei watching that you actually knew first minister, to those who are - watching that you actually knew that this was _ watching that you actually knew that this was government _ watching that you actually knew that this was government business - watching that you actually knew that this was government business and l this was government business and that is— this was government business and that is why— this was government business and that is why you _ this was government business and that is why you didn't _ this was government business and that is why you didn't discuss - this was government business and that is why you didn't discuss thisi that is why you didn't discuss this with your— that is why you didn't discuss this with your husband, _ that is why you didn't discuss this with your husband, the _ that is why you didn't discuss this with your husband, the chief - with your husband, the chief executive _ with your husband, the chief executive of— with your husband, the chief executive of the _ with your husband, the chief executive of the snp? - with your husband, the chief executive of the snp? ho, l with your husband, the chief executive of the snp?- with your husband, the chief executive of the snp? no, i don't think that is _ executive of the snp? no, i don't think that is necessarily... - executive of the snp? no, i don't think that is necessarily... i - executive of the snp? no, i don't think that is necessarily... i can i think that is necessarily... i can see why— think that is necessarily... i can see why people might make that assumption. i am only able to tell you from — assumption. i am only able to tell you from my perspective. it was something — you from my perspective. it was something that i had been told was a problenr~ _ something that i had been told was a problenr~ i_ something that i had been told was a problem. i talked about the lingering general concerns which were _ lingering general concerns which

were clearly strengthened and underlined with the conversation with andy— underlined with the conversation with andy wightman. but i wanted to hear directly from him. i think it was something that i thought was confidential. and obviously when i spoi

first minister. i think you made that very clear. _ first minister. i think you made that very clear. i _ first minister. i think you made that very clear. i just _ first minister. i think you made that very clear. i just wanted i first minister. i think you made that very clear. ijust wanted to turn _ that very clear. ijust wanted to turn briefly— that very clear. ijust wanted to turn briefly to _ that very clear. ijust wanted to turn briefly to the _ that very clear. ijust wanted to turn briefly to the question - that very clear. ijust wanted to turn briefly to the question why that very clear. ijust wanted to i turn briefly to the question why mr salmond _ turn briefly to the question why mr salmond left — turn briefly to the question why mr salmond left your— turn briefly to the question why mr salmond left your house _ turn briefly to the question why mr salmond left your house thinking i salmond left your house thinking that you — salmond left your house thinking that you are _ salmond left your house thinking that you are going _ salmond left your house thinking that you are going to _ salmond left your house thinking that you are going to help - salmond left your house thinking that you are going to help him. l salmond left your house thinking i that you are going to help him. you answered _ that you are going to help him. you answered andy _ that you are going to help him. you answered andy wightman - that you are going to help him. you answered andy wightman in - that you are going to help him. you answered andy wightman in the - answered andy wightman in the discussion— answered andy wightman in the discussion about _ answered andy wightman in the discussion about conflicting - discussion about conflicting evidence _ discussion about conflicting evidence that _ discussion about conflicting evidence that we _ discussion about conflicting evidence that we have - discussion about conflicting evidence that we have now| discussion about conflicting - evidence that we have now received from yourself — evidence that we have now received from yourself and _ evidence that we have now received from yourself and duncan _ evidence that we have now received from yourself and duncan hamilton| from yourself and duncan hamilton qc, from yourself and duncan hamilton 0c, you _ from yourself and duncan hamilton 0c, you said — from yourself and duncan hamilton qc. you said to _ from yourself and duncan hamilton qc, you said to andy— from yourself and duncan hamilton qc, you said to andy wightman - from yourself and duncan hamiltonl qc, you said to andy wightman that you perhaps — qc, you said to andy wightman that you perhaps let— qc, you said to andy wightman that you perhaps let him _ qc, you said to andy wightman that you perhaps let him down— qc, you said to andy wightman that you perhaps let him down more - qc, you said to andy wightman that . you perhaps let him down more gently then you _ you perhaps let him down more gently then you had _ you perhaps let him down more gently then you had intended _ you perhaps let him down more gently then you had intended to. _ you perhaps let him down more gently then you had intended to. those - you perhaps let him down more gently then you had intended to. those were| then you had intended to. those were your words _ then you had intended to. those were yourwords~ but— then you had intended to. those were your words. but you _ then you had intended to. those were your words. but you evidence - then you had intended to. those were your words. but you evidence to - then you had intended to. those were your words. but you evidence to us i your words. but you evidence to us could _ your words. but you evidence to us could not— your words. but you evidence to us could not have _ your words. but you evidence to us could not have been _ your words. but you evidence to us could not have been clearer. - your words. but you evidence to us could not have been clearer. it- could not have been clearer. it said, _ could not have been clearer. it said. i— could not have been clearer. it said. i nrade _ could not have been clearer. it said, i made clear— could not have been clearer. it said, i made clear to— could not have been clearer. it said, i made clear to him - could not have been clearer. it said, i made clear to him that| could not have been clearer. it| said, i made clear to him that i could not have been clearer. it- said, i made clear to him that i had no role _ said, i made clear to him that i had no role in _ said, i made clear to him that i had no role in the — said, i made clear to him that i had no role in the process— said, i made clear to him that i had no role in the process and - said, i made clear to him that i had no role in the process and would i said, i made clear to him that i hadl no role in the process and would not seek to _ no role in the process and would not seek to intervene _ no role in the process and would not seek to intervene it. _ no role in the process and would not seek to intervene it. that _ no role in the process and would not seek to intervene it. that doesn't i seek to intervene it. that doesn't sound _ seek to intervene it. that doesn't sound like — seek to intervene it. that doesn't sound like letting _ seek to intervene it. that doesn't sound like letting him _ seek to intervene it. that doesn't sound like letting him gently- seek to intervene it. that doesn't sound like letting him gently —— i sound like letting him gently —— letting — sound like letting him gently —— letting him _ sound like letting him gently —— letting him down _ sound like letting him gently —— letting him down gently- sound like letting him gently —— letting him down gently at - sound like letting him gently —— letting him down gently at all, i sound like letting him gently —— - letting him down gently at all, does it? i letting him down gently at all, does it? “ letting him down gently at all, does it? ~ , ., ., ., letting him down gently at all, does it? ., it? i think you had a copy of the rocess. it? i think you had a copy of the process l _ it? i think you had a copy of the process. i think— it? i think you had a copy of the process. ithink i _ it? i think you had a copy of the process. i think i made - it? i think you had a copy of the process. i think i made it - it? i think you had a copy of the process. i think i made it clear. process. i think i made it clear that— process. i think i made it clear that i— process. i think i made it clear that i wouldn't intervene. given what _ that i wouldn't intervene. given what he — that i wouldn't intervene. given what he said, given what duncan has said, _ what he said, given what duncan has said. did _ what he said, given what duncan has

said. did i_ what he said, given what duncan has said, did i make that clear enough? did i said, did i make that clear enough? did i discuss— said, did i make that clear enough? did i discuss with him in hearing what _ did i discuss with him in hearing what he — did i discuss with him in hearing what he thinks should happen? did i make _ what he thinks should happen? did i make that _ what he thinks should happen? did i make that clear enough? in the sense of disputed _ make that clear enough? in the sense of disputed evidence, i'm not saying that duncan says that i said something like that. but what i'm being _ something like that. but what i'm being accused of saying, doesn't strike _ being accused of saying, doesn't strike me — being accused of saying, doesn't strike me as, yeah, yeah i will help you _ strike me as, yeah, yeah i will help you it _ strike me as, yeah, yeah i will help you. it sounds as if i was not actually— you. it sounds as if i was not actually thinking of intervening. but if— actually thinking of intervening. but if he — actually thinking of intervening. but if he left there with the impression that i was then that clearly— impression that i was then that clearly was not the impression that i clearly was not the impression that i wanted _ clearly was not the impression that i wanted to— clearly was not the impression that i wanted to give him but the crucial part in— i wanted to give him but the crucial part in this — i wanted to give him but the crucial part in this or our crucial part in this— part in this or our crucial part in this is— part in this or our crucial part in this is that _ part in this or our crucial part in this is that i _ part in this or our crucial part in this is that i didn't intervene. i didn't— this is that i didn't intervene. i didn't intervene. i have heard it

put to— didn't intervene. i have heard it put to me — didn't intervene. i have heard it put to me today that i should have intervened — put to me today that i should have intervened but i didn't. in whatever way i _ intervened but i didn't. in whatever way i was _ intervened but i didn't. in whatever way i was expressing myself, in whatever— way i was expressing myself, in whatever discussions i was taking part in. _ whatever discussions i was taking part in. i— whatever discussions i was taking part in, i did not intervene in the process — part in, i did not intervene in the rocess. ~ part in, i did not intervene in the rocess. . ,, . . �*, ., process. with respect, that's not what we are _ process. with respect, that's not what we are looking _ process. with respect, that's not what we are looking at _ process. with respect, that's not what we are looking at here, - process. with respect, that's not| what we are looking at here, first minister — what we are looking at here, first minister we _ what we are looking at here, first minister. we are _ what we are looking at here, first minister. we are looking - what we are looking at here, first minister. we are looking at- what we are looking at here, first minister. we are looking at whati what we are looking at here, first. minister. we are looking at what you told us _ minister. we are looking at what you told us in _ minister. we are looking at what you told us in this— minister. we are looking at what you told us in this enquiry— minister. we are looking at what you told us in this enquiryjuxtaposed - told us in this enquiryjuxtaposed with what— told us in this enquiryjuxtaposed with what you _ told us in this enquiryjuxtaposed with what you told _ told us in this enquiryjuxtaposed with what you told duncan. - told us in this enquiryjuxtaposed with what you told duncan. he i told us in this enquiryjuxtaposed i with what you told duncan. he said e>

are talking about in this context. with it comes to —— if it comes tom _ with it comes to —— if it comes tom i'm — with it comes to —— if it comes tom i'm in— with it comes to —— if it comes to... i'm in the discussion, where i have _ to... i'm in the discussion, where i have been— to... i'm in the discussion, where i have been told something shocking and upsetting and i'm trying to process— and upsetting and i'm trying to process it _ and upsetting and i'm trying to process it in my mind as i go and maybe _ process it in my mind as i go and maybe i— process it in my mind as i go and maybe i have express myself in ways that i_ maybe i have express myself in ways that i shouldn't have done. i am not sitting _ that i shouldn't have done. i am not sitting here — that i shouldn't have done. i am not sitting here saying i didn't. i believe _ sitting here saying i didn't. i believe that i had been clear that i could _ believe that i had been clear that i could not— believe that i had been clear that i could not and would not intervene in this process — could not and would not intervene in this process-— this process. with respect again, first minister, _ this process. with respect again, first minister, you _ this process. with respect again, first minister, you are _ this process. with respect again, first minister, you are focusing l this process. with respect again, | first minister, you are focusing on one set— first minister, you are focusing on one set of— first minister, you are focusing on one set of words. _ first minister, you are focusing on one set of words. if— first minister, you are focusing on one set of words. if it _ first minister, you are focusing on one set of words. if it comes - first minister, you are focusing on one set of words. if it comes to i first minister, you are focusing on one set of words. if it comes to it| one set of words. if it comes to it is not _ one set of words. if it comes to it is not that— one set of words. if it comes to it is not that important _ one set of words. if it comes to it is not that important as - one set of words. if it comes to it is not that important as i - one set of words. if it comes to it is not that important as i will- is not that important as i will intervene _ is not that important as i will intervene. it _ is not that important as i will intervene. it doesn't - is not that important as i will intervene. it doesn't matteri is not that important as i will. intervene. it doesn't matter the context — intervene. it doesn't matter the context i— intervene. it doesn't matter the context. i appreciate _ intervene. it doesn't matter the context. i appreciate we - intervene. it doesn't matter the context. i appreciate we are - intervene. it doesn't matter thej context. i appreciate we are not going — context. i appreciate we are not going to _ context. i appreciate we are not going to agree _ context. i appreciate we are not going to agree on— context. i appreciate we are not going to agree on this. - context. i appreciate we are not going to agree on this. just - context. i appreciate we are not. going to agree on this. just coming to an _ going to agree on this. just coming to an end — going to agree on this. just coming to an end i— going to agree on this. just coming to an end. i appreciate _ going to agree on this. just coming to an end. i appreciate your- to an end. i appreciate your patience _ to an end. i appreciate your patience with _ to an end. i appreciate your patience with me. - to an end. i appreciate your patience with me. the - to an end. i appreciate your. patience with me. the problem to an end. i appreciate your- patience with me. the problem is, first _ patience with me. the problem is, first minister, _ patience with me. the problem is, first minister, that— patience with me. the problem is, first minister, that actually- patience with me. the problem is, | first minister, that actually duncan hamilton's— first minister, that actually duncan hamilton's statement— first minister, that actually duncan hamilton's statement here - first minister, that actually duncan hamilton's statement here is - first minister, that actually duncan hamilton's statement here is bone| hamilton's statement here is bone artefacts —

hamilton's statement here is bone artefacts he — hamilton's statement here is bone artefacts. he left— hamilton's statement here is bone artefacts. he left with _ hamilton's statement here is bone artefacts. he left with the - artefacts. he left with the impression _ artefacts. he left with the impression that— artefacts. he left with the impression that you - artefacts. he left with the impression that you are l artefacts. he left with the - impression that you are going to help _ impression that you are going to help he — impression that you are going to help. he said _ impression that you are going to help. he said on _ impression that you are going to help. he said on the _ impression that you are going to help. he said on the 3rd - impression that you are going to help. he said on the 3rd of- impression that you are going to| help. he said on the 3rd ofjune, impression that you are going to - help. he said on the 3rd ofjune, my recollection — help. he said on the 3rd ofjune, my recollection of— help. he said on the 3rd ofjune, my recollection of our— help. he said on the 3rd ofjune, my recollection of our monday- help. he said on the 3rd ofjune, my recollection of our monday 2nd - help. he said on the 3rd ofjune, my recollection of our monday 2nd of. recollection of our monday 2nd of april was— recollection of our monday 2nd of april was rather— recollection of our monday 2nd of april was rather different. - recollection of our monday 2nd of april was rather different. i- april was rather different. i understand _ april was rather different. i understand that _ april was rather different. i understand that you - april was rather different. i understand that you have l april was rather different. i. understand that you have told april was rather different. i- understand that you have told us that perhaps _ understand that you have told us that perhaps you _ understand that you have told us that perhaps you left _ understand that you have told us that perhaps you left him - understand that you have told us that perhaps you left him with i understand that you have told usi that perhaps you left him with the wrong _ that perhaps you left him with the wrong impression _ that perhaps you left him with the wrong impression and _ that perhaps you left him with the wrong impression and i— that perhaps you left him with the wrong impression and i don't - that perhaps you left him with the| wrong impression and i don't think anyone _ wrong impression and i don't think anyone is— wrong impression and i don't think anyone is suggesting _ wrong impression and i don't think anyone is suggesting that - wrong impression and i don't think anyone is suggesting that you - wrong impression and i don't think anyone is suggesting that you didl anyone is suggesting that you did make _ anyone is suggesting that you did make good — anyone is suggesting that you did make good on— anyone is suggesting that you did make good on that _ anyone is suggesting that you did make good on that promise - anyone is suggesting that you did make good on that promise but. anyone is suggesting that you did i make good on that promise but this is the _ make good on that promise but this is the impression _ make good on that promise but this is the impression he _ make good on that promise but this is the impression he was _ make good on that promise but this is the impression he was left - make good on that promise but this is the impression he was left with. i is the impression he was left with. the other— is the impression he was left with. the other thing _ is the impression he was left with. the other thing that _ is the impression he was left with. the other thing that really- is the impression he was left with. the other thing that really sticks . the other thing that really sticks with me — the other thing that really sticks with me as— the other thing that really sticks with me as the _ the other thing that really sticks with me as the delay— the other thing that really sticks with me as the delay of - the other thing that really sticks with me as the delay of you - the other thing that really sticks . with me as the delay of you telling the secretary _ with me as the delay of you telling the secretary. he _ with me as the delay of you telling the secretary. he finally _ with me as the delay of you telling the secretary. he finally told - the secretary. he finally told leslie — the secretary. he finally told leslie evans _ the secretary. he finally told leslie evans about _ the secretary. he finally told leslie evans about the - the secretary. he finally told leslie evans about the aprili the secretary. he finally told - leslie evans about the april meeting on the _ leslie evans about the april meeting on the 6th— leslie evans about the april meeting on the 6th of— leslie evans about the april meeting on the 6th ofjune. _ leslie evans about the april meeting on the 6th ofjune. that _ leslie evans about the april meeting on the 6th ofjune. that is _ leslie evans about the april meeting on the 6th ofjune. that is more - on the 6th ofjune. that is more than _ on the 6th ofjune. that is more than two — on the 6th ofjune. that is more than two months _ on the 6th ofjune. that is more than two months later. - on the 6th ofjune. that is more than two months later. that - on the 6th ofjune. that is more than two months later. that is. on the 6th ofjune. that is more i than two months later. that is over 60 days _ than two months later. that is over 60 days of— than two months later. that is over 60 days of you _ than two months later. that is over 60 days of you seeing _ than two months later. that is over 60 days of you seeing the - than two months later. that is over| 60 days of you seeing the secretary in government _ 60 days of you seeing the secretary in government every— 60 days of you seeing the secretary in government every day. _ 60 days of you seeing the secretary in government every day. we - 60 days of you seeing the secretary in government every day. we know| 60 days of you seeing the secretary - in government every day. we know how often you _ in government every day. we know how often you meet— in government every day. we know how often you meet with _ in government every day. we know how often you meet with her. _ in government every day. we know how often you meet with her. you _ in government every day. we know how often you meet with her. you said - often you meet with her. you said nothing _ often you meet with her. you said nothing to— often you meet with her. you said nothing to her _ often you meet with her. you said nothing to her. wouldn't - often you meet with her. you said nothing to her. wouldn't you - often you meet with her. you said i nothing to her. wouldn't you suggest that the _ nothing to her. wouldn't you suggest that the transparent _ nothing to her. wouldn't you suggest that the transparent thing _ nothing to her. wouldn't you suggest that the transparent thing to - nothing to her. wouldn't you suggest that the transparent thing to have . that the transparent thing to have done _ that the transparent thing to have done would — that the transparent thing to have done would have _ that the transparent thing to have done would have been— that the transparent thing to have done would have been to - that the transparent thing to have done would have been to say - that the transparent thing to have done would have been to say to l that the transparent thing to have i done would have been to say to the secretary _ done would have been to say to the secretary from _ done would have been to say to the secretary from the _ done would have been to say to the secretary from the outset _ done would have been to say to the secretary from the outset that - done would have been to say to the secretary from the outset that you i secretary from the outset that you had this _ secretary from the outset that you had this unsolicited _ secretary from the outset that you had this unsolicited approach - secretary from the outset that you had this unsolicited approach from mr salmond? _ had this unsolicited approach from mr salmond? is _ had this unsolicited approach from mr salmond? is did _ had this unsolicited approach from mr salmond? is did read - had this unsolicited approach from mr salmond? is did read that - had this unsolicited approach from mr salmond? is did read that you| mr salmond? is did read that you didn't— mr salmond? is did read that you didn't do— mr salmond? is did read that you didn't do that _ mr salmond? is did read that you

didn't do that because _ mr salmond? is did read that you didn't do that because initially, . didn't do that because initially, you were — didn't do that because initially, you were minded _ didn't do that because initially, you were minded to _ didn't do that because initially, you were minded to helping? l didn't do that because initially, . you were minded to helping? ho, you were minded to helping? no, that's not the _ you were minded to helping? that's not the case. if i you were minded to helping? iii, that's not the case. if i didn't express— that's not the case. if i didn't express myself clearly enough then that is— express myself clearly enough then that is something that i will have to hold _ that is something that i will have to hold my hands up to but that is not the _ to hold my hands up to but that is not the case. i was in my own mind is absolutely — not the case. i was in my own mind is absolutely clear from the outset that i_ is absolutely clear from the outset that i could not and would not intervene _ that i could not and would not intervene. in terms of the decision around _ intervene. in terms of the decision around not — intervene. in terms of the decision around not notifying this people and governments. i have said that in my written _ governments. i have said that in my written evidence and i've said that again— written evidence and i've said that again today. again, people can decide — again today. again, people can decide if— again today. again, people can decide if i_ again today. again, people can decide if i made the rightjudgment or the _ decide if i made the rightjudgment or the wrong judgment. i looked at the ministerial code. the ministerial code imposes a range of obligation— ministerial code imposes a range of obligation on ministers. sometimes in situations they can feel conflicting. you have to make a judgment _ conflicting. you have to make a judgment. the regulations in terms of notification are about a situation where i'm at a party conference and a company lobbies me about— conference and a company lobbies me about a _ conference and a company lobbies me about a decision that i'm involved

in. about a decision that i'm involved in its— about a decision that i'm involved in. it's about guarding against undisclosed information... this is information— undisclosed information... this is information that i was not party to and i_ information that i was not party to and i was — information that i was not party to and i was not mentioned —— i was not meant _ and i was not mentioned —— i was not meant to— and i was not mentioned —— i was not meant to know. any conversation that started _ meant to know. any conversation that started with _ meant to know. any conversation that started with me saying, alex salmond has told _ started with me saying, alex salmond has told me _ started with me saying, alex salmond has told me about this... even unintentionally and inadvertently, does that— unintentionally and inadvertently, does that make the people doing the investigation think that there is a particular— investigation think that there is a particular thing that i'm trying to bring _ particular thing that i'm trying to bring about? the second reason if you read _ bring about? the second reason if you read the code in that respect, notifying — you read the code in that respect, notifying meetings in that way involves — notifying meetings in that way involves publication and, you know, you might _ involves publication and, you know, you might all tell me i'm wrong here but if— you might all tell me i'm wrong here but if i _ you might all tell me i'm wrong here but if i meeting the strike if a meeting _ but if i meeting the strike if a meeting of involved... —— if a

meeting _ meeting of involved... —— if a meeting popped up in my schedule, people _ meeting popped up in my schedule, people would want to know about it. the ministerial code also in section says i_ the ministerial code also in section says i have — the ministerial code also in section says i have an obligation to respect the impartiality of other civil servants _ the impartiality of other civil servants and respect the confidentiality of government business. i weighed up all of that and i_ business. i weighed up all of that and i came — business. i weighed up all of that and i came to a judgment. it's bad people _ and i came to a judgment. it's bad people to — and i came to a judgment. it's bad people tojudge if i was right or wrong — people tojudge if i was right or wrong but i think i made the best judgment — wrong but i think i made the best judgment overall and i think i made a judgment that was come in that respect, — a judgment that was come in that respect, certainly defensible in my view _ respect, certainly defensible in my view. �* , ., . , respect, certainly defensible in my view. �* . , ., view. and when you finally told lesley evans — view. and when you finally told lesley evans about _ view. and when you finally told lesley evans about the - view. and when you finally told lesley evans about the april. view. and when you finally told | lesley evans about the april the view. and when you finally told - lesley evans about the april the 2nd meeting _ lesley evans about the april the 2nd meeting with — lesley evans about the april the 2nd meeting with mr— lesley evans about the april the 2nd meeting with mr salmond, - lesley evans about the april the 2nd meeting with mr salmond, did - lesley evans about the april the 2nd meeting with mr salmond, did she l meeting with mr salmond, did she tell you _ meeting with mr salmond, did she tell you not — meeting with mr salmond, did she tell you not to— meeting with mr salmond, did she tell you not to speak _ meeting with mr salmond, did she tell you not to speak to _ meeting with mr salmond, did she tell you not to speak to him - meeting with mr salmond, did she| tell you not to speak to him again? i tell you not to speak to him again? i wrote _ tell you not to speak to him again? i wrote to _ tell you not to speak to him again? i wrote to mrs _ tell you not to speak to him again? i wrote to mrs evans _ tell you not to speak to him again? i wrote to mrs evans and _ tell you not to speak to him again? i wrote to mrs evans and i - tell you not to speak to him again? i wrote to mrs evans and i think- tell you not to speak to him again? | i wrote to mrs evans and i think you have _ i wrote to mrs evans and i think you have the _ i wrote to mrs evans and i think you have the letter. she replied to

acknowledge receipt. iadvised her in that— acknowledge receipt. iadvised her in that letter but i was going to make _ in that letter but i was going to make mr— in that letter but i was going to make mr salmond aware that i had told her— make mr salmond aware that i had told her and that i wouldn't intervene. right back maureen watts, please _ intervene. right back maureen watts, lease. ., ~' intervene. right back maureen watts, lease. . ,, g , intervene. right back maureen watts, lease. . g , ., ., please. thank you,. just following on from the _ please. thank you,. just following on from the questioning, - please. thank you,. just following on from the questioning, mr- please. thank you,. just following . on from the questioning, mr salmond said to _ on from the questioning, mr salmond said to us _ on from the questioning, mr salmond said to us that — on from the questioning, mr salmond said to us that he _ on from the questioning, mr salmond said to us that he thought _ on from the questioning, mr salmond said to us that he thought that - on from the questioning, mr salmond said to us that he thought that you i said to us that he thought that you should _ said to us that he thought that you should have — said to us that he thought that you should have involved _ said to us that he thought that you should have involved officials- said to us that he thought that you should have involved officials in. should have involved officials in the civil— should have involved officials in the civil service _ should have involved officials in the civil service as _ should have involved officials in the civil service as soon - should have involved officials in the civil service as soon as - should have involved officials in the civil service as soon as it. the civil service as soon as it became _ the civil service as soon as it became clear— the civil service as soon as it became clear that— the civil service as soon as it became clear that the - the civil service as soon as it . became clear that the meeting the civil service as soon as it - became clear that the meeting of the 2nd of— became clear that the meeting of the 2nd of april— became clear that the meeting of the 2nd of april was— became clear that the meeting of the 2nd of april was related _ became clear that the meeting of the 2nd of april was related to _ became clear that the meeting of the 2nd of april was related to a - 2nd of april was related to a government— 2nd of april was related to a government matter. - 2nd of april was related to a government matter. did - 2nd of april was related to a government matter. did he| 2nd of april was related to a i government matter. did he say 2nd of april was related to a - government matter. did he say this to you _ government matter. did he say this to you at _ government matter. did he say this to you at the — government matter. did he say this to you at the meeting _ government matter. did he say this to you at the meeting on _ government matter. did he say this to you at the meeting on the - government matter. did he say this to you at the meeting on the 2nd i government matter. did he say this to you at the meeting on the 2nd of april or— to you at the meeting on the 2nd of april or at _ to you at the meeting on the 2nd of april or at any— to you at the meeting on the 2nd of april or at any time _ to you at the meeting on the 2nd of april or at any time later? - to you at the meeting on the 2nd of april or at any time later? i- to you at the meeting on the 2nd of april or at any time later?— april or at any time later? i don't recall him _ april or at any time later? i don't recall him quitting _ april or at any time later? i don't recall him quitting the _ april or at any time later? i don't| recall him quitting the ministerial code _ recall him quitting the ministerial code if— recall him quitting the ministerial code if he — recall him quitting the ministerial code. if he had done, i would have been _ code. if he had done, i would have been surprised as he was —— as i was when _ been surprised as he was —— as i was when i _ been surprised as he was —— as i was when i heard — been surprised as he was —— as i was when i heard and talking about other policies _ when i heard and talking about other policies i_ when i heard and talking about other policies. i don't remember him guitting — policies. i don't remember him quitting the ministerial code at me.

he wanted — quitting the ministerial code at me. he wanted me to tell the parliament secretary— he wanted me to tell the parliament secretary that i knew. i don't think i'm secretary that i knew. i don't think i'm saying — secretary that i knew. i don't think i'm saying anything here that he's thing _ i'm saying anything here that he's thing himself. to be fair to him, he has been _ thing himself. to be fair to him, he has been perfectly upfront about that and — has been perfectly upfront about that and he is making a case and people _ that and he is making a case and people have got a choice as to whether— people have got a choice as to whether they agree with that. i'm not saying — whether they agree with that. i'm not saying there is no... i'm not saying _ not saying there is no... i'm not saying he — not saying there is no... i'm not saying he doesn't have a stateable case. forgive me, i didn't— have a stateable case. forgive me, i didn't want— have a stateable case. forgive me, i didn't want all of the six hours on friday— didn't want all of the six hours on friday but— didn't want all of the six hours on friday but the bits that i saw and i read through, i'm not sure he said that he _ read through, i'm not sure he said that he expressly quoted the ministerial code to me, i think he saying _ ministerial code to me, i think he saying that — ministerial code to me, i think he saying that he thought i should tell the parliament secretary and he thought — the parliament secretary and he thought that was part of my

obligations under the ministerial code _ obligations under the ministerial code on — obligations under the ministerial code. on the 2nd of april, to the best— code. on the 2nd of april, to the best of— code. on the 2nd of april, to the best of my— code. on the 2nd of april, to the best of my recollection, he was couching — best of my recollection, he was couching it— best of my recollection, he was couching it in ministerial code, he was couching it in the sense of, you know, _ was couching it in the sense of, you know. this — was couching it in the sense of, you know. this is — was couching it in the sense of, you know, this is an outrageous thing and being — know, this is an outrageous thing and being subjected to, this procedure is wrong, there should be mediation _ procedure is wrong, there should be mediation and you should help me bring _ mediation and you should help me bring that— mediation and you should help me bring that about. i think some of the messages show that later on this ministerial— the messages show that later on this ministerial code issues that he was bringing _ ministerial code issues that he was bringing into the discussion were around _ bringing into the discussion were around making sure the government was acting _ around making sure the government was acting legally and lawfully, which _ was acting legally and lawfully, which i — was acting legally and lawfully, which i believe i did.— was acting legally and lawfully, which i believe i did. yes, he did sa to which i believe i did. yes, he did say to us. _ which i believe i did. yes, he did say to us. and — which i believe i did. yes, he did say to us. and l— which i believe i did. yes, he did say to us, and i quote, - which i believe i did. yes, he did say to us, and i quote, first- say to us, and i quote, first minister— say to us, and i quote, first minister is _ say to us, and i quote, first minister is duty— say to us, and i quote, first minister is duty bound - say to us, and i quote, first minister is duty bound to. say to us, and i quote, first| minister is duty bound to act say to us, and i quote, first. minister is duty bound to act if say to us, and i quote, first- minister is duty bound to act if she has a _ minister is duty bound to act if she has a reasonable _ minister is duty bound to act if she has a reasonable belief— minister is duty bound to act if she has a reasonable belief that - minister is duty bound to act if she has a reasonable belief that her. has a reasonable belief that her government— has a reasonable belief that her government is— has a reasonable belief that her government is in— has a reasonable belief that her government is in danger- has a reasonable belief that her government is in danger of- has a reasonable belief that her- government is in danger of behaving in an unlawful— government is in danger of behaving in an unlawful fashion. _ government is in danger of behaving in an unlawful fashion. what's - government is in danger of behaving in an unlawful fashion. what's your i in an unlawful fashion. what's your response _ in an unlawful fashion. what's your response to —

in an unlawful fashion. what's your response to that? _ in an unlawful fashion. what's your response to that? and _ in an unlawful fashion. what's your response to that? and again, - in an unlawful fashion. what's your response to that? and again, did l in an unlawful fashion. what's your| response to that? and again, did he communicate — response to that? and again, did he communicate this _ response to that? and again, did he communicate this future _ response to that? and again, did he communicate this future at - response to that? and again, did he communicate this future at the - response to that? and again, did he i communicate this future at the time? i knew— communicate this future at the time? i knew because — communicate this future at the time? i knew because he _ communicate this future at the time? i knew because he told _ communicate this future at the time? i knew because he told me _ communicate this future at the time? i knew because he told me that - communicate this future at the time? i knew because he told me that his. i knew because he told me that his lawyers _ i knew because he told me that his lawyers were corresponding with the government, so therefore, i had an assumption— government, so therefore, i had an assumption that the government would be engaging in legal poise that his lawyers _ be engaging in legal poise that his lawyers were putting across. i didn't — lawyers were putting across. i didn'tiust _ lawyers were putting across. i didn'tjust ignore that. but i weighed _ didn'tjust ignore that. but i weighed up the different obligations that i thought i was under. had i intervened — that i thought i was under. had i intervened in the way that he wanted, _ intervened in the way that he wanted, that would have satisfied what he _ wanted, that would have satisfied what he thought my obligations were but i thought i would have been acting _ but i thought i would have been acting improperly by intervening on his behaif— acting improperly by intervening on his behalf because of our relationship in a process that i wasn't — relationship in a process that i wasn't meant to be involved in. now, when _ wasn't meant to be involved in. now, when we _ wasn't meant to be involved in. now, when we got — wasn't meant to be involved in. now, when we got to the stage when it was clear that _ when we got to the stage when it was clear that he wasn't talking about legal _ clear that he wasn't talking about legal action in abstract but was very— legal action in abstract but was very seriously considering legal action, — very seriously considering legal action, i— very seriously considering legal action, i then took the decision to inform _ action, i then took the decision to inform the — action, i then took the decision to inform the parliament secretary that

he had _ inform the parliament secretary that he had said — inform the parliament secretary that he had said that to me as part of being _ he had said that to me as part of being sure — he had said that to me as part of being sure that the government had awareness, so that they were taking the proper— awareness, so that they were taking the proper steps to ensure that the government was acting appropriately, iegaity~ _ government was acting appropriately, legally. life as a minister would be much _ legally. life as a minister would be much easier if things were all binary— much easier if things were all binary and you could point for every situation _ binary and you could point for every situation to — binary and you could point for every situation to a provision in the ministerial code that would answer the question for you. it doesn't. we face every— the question for you. it doesn't. we face every day complex decisions that we _ face every day complex decisions that we have to balance. we need to act in _ that we have to balance. we need to act in a _ that we have to balance. we need to act in a way— that we have to balance. we need to act in a way that we feel is appropriate overall and aligns with the multitude of obligations that the multitude of obligations that the ministerial code places on us. that is— the ministerial code places on us. that is what— the ministerial code places on us. that is what i sought to do. thank ou. we that is what i sought to do. thank you we will _ that is what i sought to do. thank you. we will move _ that is what i sought to do. thank you. we will move now _ that is what i sought to do. thank you. we will move now to - that is what i sought to do. thank you. we will move now to murdol you. we will move now to murdo fraser. i wonder _ you. we will move now to murdo fraser. i wonder if _ you. we will move now to murdo fraser. iwonder if i _ you. we will move now to murdo fraser. i wonder ifi can - you. we will move now to murdo fraser. i wonder if i can follow. you. we will move now to murdo| fraser. i wonder if i can follow up on some of— fraser. i wonder if i can follow up on some of the _ fraser. i wonder if i can follow up on some of the questions - fraser. i wonder if i can follow up on some of the questions that . fraser. i wonder if i can follow upi on some of the questions that we fraser. i wonder if i can follow up - on some of the questions that we had from alex _ on some of the questions that we had from alex cole — on some of the questions that we had from alex cole hamilton. _ on some of the questions that we had

from alex cole hamilton. in _ from alex cole hamilton. in parliaments, _ from alex cole hamilton. in parliaments, you _ from alex cole hamilton. in parliaments, you didn't- from alex cole hamilton. in - parliaments, you didn't acknowledge that a _ parliaments, you didn't acknowledge that a meeting — parliaments, you didn't acknowledge that a meeting had _ parliaments, you didn't acknowledge that a meeting had taken _ parliaments, you didn't acknowledge that a meeting had taken place. - parliaments, you didn't acknowledge that a meeting had taken place. and| that a meeting had taken place. and in your— that a meeting had taken place. and in your written — that a meeting had taken place. and in your written evidence _ that a meeting had taken place. and in your written evidence to _ that a meeting had taken place. and in your written evidence to this - in your written evidence to this committee. _ in your written evidence to this committee, you _ in your written evidence to this committee, you say— in your written evidence to this committee, you say initially. in your written evidence to this. committee, you say initially that you had — committee, you say initially that you had potentially— committee, you say initially that you had potentially forgotten - committee, you say initially that i you had potentially forgotten about it until _ you had potentially forgotten about it until you — you had potentially forgotten about it until you are _ you had potentially forgotten about it until you are reminded _ you had potentially forgotten about it until you are reminded of- you had potentially forgotten about it until you are reminded of it- you had potentially forgotten about it until you are reminded of it and l it until you are reminded of it and you said — it until you are reminded of it and you said that— it until you are reminded of it and you said that she _ it until you are reminded of it and you said that she did _ it until you are reminded of it and you said that she did think- it until you are reminded of it and you said that she did think it- it until you are reminded of it and. you said that she did think it would cover— you said that she did think it would cover the _ you said that she did think it would cover the matter— you said that she did think it would cover the matter that— you said that she did think it would cover the matter that the - cover the matter that the allegations _ cover the matter that the allegations were - cover the matter that the allegations were related i cover the matter that the i allegations were related to cover the matter that the - allegations were related to sexual allegations — allegations were related to sexual allegations at _ allegations were related to sexual allegations. at the _ allegations were related to sexual allegations. at the time _ allegations were related to sexual allegations. at the time you - allegations were related to sexual allegations. at the time you were | allegations. at the time you were deputy— allegations. at the time you were deputy to — allegations. at the time you were deputy to alex _ allegations. at the time you were deputy to alex salmond. - allegations. at the time you were deputy to alex salmond. i- allegations. at the time you were deputy to alex salmond. i don't l deputy to alex salmond. i don't think— deputy to alex salmond. i don't think i_ deputy to alex salmond. i don't think i would _ deputy to alex salmond. i don't think i would have _ deputy to alex salmond. i don't think i would have just - deputy to alex salmond. i don't| think i would have just forgotten about— think i would have just forgotten about this — think i would have just forgotten about this i_ think i would have just forgotten about this. i would _ think i would have just forgotten about this. i would have - think i would have just forgotten about this. i would have been i think i would have just forgottenj about this. i would have been so shocked — about this. i would have been so shocked and _ about this. i would have been so shocked and appalled _ about this. i would have been so shocked and appalled by- about this. i would have been so shocked and appalled by news i about this. i would have been so i shocked and appalled by news like this that _ shocked and appalled by news like this that i — shocked and appalled by news like this that i probably— shocked and appalled by news like this that i probably wouldn't - shocked and appalled by news like this that i probably wouldn't have i this that i probably wouldn't have slept— this that i probably wouldn't have slept a _ this that i probably wouldn't have slept a wink— this that i probably wouldn't have slept a wink like _ this that i probably wouldn't have slept a wink like —— _ this that i probably wouldn't have slept a wink like —— that- this that i probably wouldn't have slept a wink like —— that night. i. slept a wink like —— that night. i don't _ slept a wink like —— that night. i don't think— slept a wink like —— that night. i don't think we _ slept a wink like —— that night. i don't think we believe _ slept a wink like —— that night. i don't think we believe the - slept a wink like —— that night. i don't think we believe the story| don't think we believe the story that you — don't think we believe the story that you just _ don't think we believe the story that you just forgot _ don't think we believe the story that you just forgot about - don't think we believe the story that you just forgot about this l that you just forgot about this meeting _

that you just forgot about this meetin: . �* , ., that you just forgot about this meetinu. �* , ., , . meeting. i'm trying to explain the relative importance _ meeting. i'm trying to explain the relative importance in _ meeting. i'm trying to explain the relative importance in the - relative importance in the significance of the two meetings. the other— significance of the two meetings. the other factor around the 29th as well as— the other factor around the 29th as well as to _ the other factor around the 29th as well as to the best of my recollection, it was a general discussion, focused on getting me to meet _ discussion, focused on getting me to meet alex _ discussion, focused on getting me to meet alex salmond so that we can talk directly on the issue. by that time _ talk directly on the issue. by that time and. — talk directly on the issue. by that time and, again, i said this in my written— time and, again, i said this in my written evidence, the whole episode around _ written evidence, the whole episode around the _ written evidence, the whole episode around the sky news edinburgh airport— around the sky news edinburgh airport query had left me with a kind of— airport query had left me with a kind of lingering fear or suspicion that something might appear. in a sense, _ that something might appear. in a sense, that kind of general concern, that general discussion... if that had been — that general discussion... if that had been the first time i had ever heard _ had been the first time i had ever heard any— had been the first time i had ever heard any suggestion of complaints of asexual— heard any suggestion of complaints of asexual misconduct against alex salmond, — of asexual misconduct against alex salmond, that might be true but it wasn't _

salmond, that might be true but it wasn't -- — salmond, that might be true but it wasn't. —— sexual misconduct. hearing — wasn't. —— sexual misconduct. hearing his— wasn't. —— sexual misconduct. hearing his account of it is what is the strong — hearing his account of it is what is the strong memory in my mind. i appreciate — the strong memory in my mind. i appreciate that people might think, how could _ appreciate that people might think, how could you forget that? i am trying _ how could you forget that? i am trying to— how could you forget that? i am trying to set out here what actually happens _ trying to set out here what actually happens and i have struggled a lot with why— happens and i have struggled a lot with why did i not remember the 29th of march? _ with why did i not remember the 29th of march? i_ with why did i not remember the 29th of march? i have been struggling to try to _ of march? i have been struggling to try to rememberas of march? i have been struggling to try to remember as much as i can about— try to remember as much as i can about the — try to remember as much as i can about the content of that discussion. when this first came to li-ht discussion. when this first came to light and _ discussion. when this first came to light and i— discussion. when this first came to light and i was in my own minds, trying— light and i was in my own minds, trying to— light and i was in my own minds, trying to think when was it that i found _ trying to think when was it that i found out— trying to think when was it that i found out about this. in my mind, instinctively, it wasn't the choice between — instinctively, it wasn't the choice between the 2nd of april and the 29th of— between the 2nd of april and the 29th of march, i was checking the date of _ 29th of march, i was checking the date of easter monday because it was easter— date of easter monday because it was easter monday that we met. i was looking _ easter monday that we met. i was looking for— easter monday that we met. i was looking for what date easter monday was. rightly or wrongly, to use your words. _ was. rightly or wrongly, to use your words, people can be sceptical about

that but— words, people can be sceptical about that but i_ words, people can be sceptical about that but i hadn't remembered the 29th as _ that but i hadn't remembered the 29th as being the big significant factor— 29th as being the big significant factor in — 29th as being the big significant factor in this and in many ways, i really— factor in this and in many ways, i really wish — factor in this and in many ways, i really wish i _ factor in this and in many ways, i really wish i had because if i had, i really wish i had because if i had, iwouldn't — really wish i had because if i had, i wouldn't be sitting here answering a lot iwouldn't be sitting here answering a lot of— i wouldn't be sitting here answering a lot of these questions. i wouldn't be sitting _ a lot of these questions. i wouldn't be sitting here explaining that to you. be sitting here explaining that to ou. ., be sitting here explaining that to oh. ., . ., be sitting here explaining that to ou. ., . . . you. ok. you claim that the meeting on the 29th — you. ok. you claim that the meeting on the 29th of— you. ok. you claim that the meeting on the 29th of march _ you. ok. you claim that the meeting on the 29th of march was _ you. ok. you claim that the meeting on the 29th of march was effectively| on the 29th of march was effectively a chance _ on the 29th of march was effectively a chance meeting _ on the 29th of march was effectively a chance meeting — _ on the 29th of march was effectively a chance meeting — an _ on the 29th of march was effectively a chance meeting — an informal- a chance meeting — an informal meeting- — a chance meeting — an informal meeting- it— a chance meeting — an informal meeting— it wasn't _ a chance meeting — an informali meeting— it wasn't prearranged. a chance meeting — an informal- meeting— it wasn't prearranged. that is contradicted — meeting— it wasn't prearranged. that is contradicted by _ meeting— it wasn't prearranged. that is contradicted by geoff— meeting— it wasn't prearranged. that is contradicted by geoff aberdein - is contradicted by geoff aberdein and we _ is contradicted by geoff aberdein and we know— is contradicted by geoff aberdein and we know that _ is contradicted by geoff aberdein and we know that because - is contradicted by geoff aberdein and we know that because that l is contradicted by geoff aberdeinj and we know that because that is reflected — and we know that because that is reflected in— and we know that because that is reflected in the _ and we know that because that is reflected in the evidence - and we know that because that is reflected in the evidence that - and we know that because that is reflected in the evidence that we| reflected in the evidence that we had from — reflected in the evidence that we had from mr— reflected in the evidence that we had from mr salmond _ reflected in the evidence that we had from mr salmond which - reflected in the evidence that we| had from mr salmond which came reflected in the evidence that we - had from mr salmond which came on friday _ had from mr salmond which came on friday it _ had from mr salmond which came on friday it was — had from mr salmond which came on friday. it was also _ had from mr salmond which came on friday. it was also in _ had from mr salmond which came on friday. it was also in evidence - had from mr salmond which came on friday. it was also in evidence by- friday. it was also in evidence by mr pringle~ — friday. it was also in evidence by mr pringle~ the _ friday. it was also in evidence by mr pringle. the meeting - friday. it was also in evidence by mr pringle. the meeting on- friday. it was also in evidence by mr pringle. the meeting on the i friday. it was also in evidence by- mr pringle. the meeting on the 29th of march _ mr pringle. the meeting on the 29th of march in _ mr pringle. the meeting on the 29th of march in the — mr pringle. the meeting on the 29th of march in the scottish _ mr pringle. the meeting on the 29th of march in the scottish parliament i of march in the scottish parliament was prearranged _ of march in the scottish parliament was prearranged in _ of march in the scottish parliament was prearranged in the _ of march in the scottish parliament was prearranged in the express- was prearranged in the express payment — was prearranged in the express payment of— was prearranged in the express

payment of nicola _ was prearranged in the express payment of nicola being... - was prearranged in the express payment of nicola being... i. was prearranged in the express payment of nicola being... i can't seak to payment of nicola being... i can't speak to what _ payment of nicola being... i can't speak to what alex _ payment of nicola being... i can't speak to what alex thought - payment of nicola being... i can't speak to what alex thought of. payment of nicola being... i can't i speak to what alex thought of what he was _ speak to what alex thought of what he was told by all of this. i knew that geoff— he was told by all of this. i knew that geoff aberdein... in the sense that geoff aberdein... in the sense that i_ that geoff aberdein... in the sense that i did _ that geoff aberdein... in the sense that i did walk out of my office and didn't— that i did walk out of my office and didn't know anything about it, i had been _ didn't know anything about it, i had been told _ didn't know anything about it, i had been told the night before that geoff— been told the night before that geoff aberdein may well be in parliament the next day and wanted to see _ parliament the next day and wanted to see me — parliament the next day and wanted to see me. so, in that sense, if jeff thought that was prearranged then that is the basis on which i understood it. what is definitely the case — understood it. what is definitely the case is that in that meeting, i agreed _ the case is that in that meeting, i agreed to— the case is that in that meeting, i agreed to see alex. i am not disputing _ agreed to see alex. i am not disputing that. i'm not the genesis of the _ disputing that. i'm not the genesis of the 2nd — disputing that. i'm not the genesis of the 2nd of april meeting was on the 29th— of the 2nd of april meeting was on the 29th of march meeting. my understanding is that geoff aberdein had asked to see me. clearly, it was

through— had asked to see me. clearly, it was through people in my office that that request was conveyed. so the meeting was not at the request— so the meeting was not at the request of— so the meeting was not at the request of your _ so the meeting was not at the request of your office? - so the meeting was not at the request of your office? hot. so the meeting was not at the request of your office?- so the meeting was not at the request of your office? not as far as i'm concerned. _ request of your office? not as far as i'm concerned. because - request of your office? not as far as i'm concerned. because that l as i'm concerned. because that directly contradicted _ as i'm concerned. because that directly contradicted from - as i'm concerned. because that directly contradicted from the l as i'm concerned. because that. directly contradicted from the first minister. _ directly contradicted from the first minister. and _ directly contradicted from the first minister, and his— directly contradicted from the first minister, and his version— directly contradicted from the first minister, and his version of- directly contradicted from the first minister, and his version of events was corroborated _ minister, and his version of events was corroborated by _ minister, and his version of events was corroborated by dunkel - minister, and his version of events i was corroborated by dunkel hamilton and kevin _ was corroborated by dunkel hamilton and kevin pringle. _ was corroborated by dunkel hamilton and kevin pringle. [— was corroborated by dunkel hamilton and kevin pringle.— was corroborated by dunkel hamilton and kevin pringle. i may have missed something — and kevin pringle. i may have missed something l — and kevin pringle. i may have missed something. i thought _ and kevin pringle. i may have missed something. i thought alex _ and kevin pringle. i may have missed something. i thought alex salmond's| something. i thought alex salmond's evidence _ something. i thought alex salmond's evidence was that geoff had wanted to come _ evidence was that geoff had wanted to come and see me to breathe me, and i_ to come and see me to breathe me, and i wasn't — to come and see me to breathe me, and i wasn't asking to be briefed on matters _ and i wasn't asking to be briefed on matters. the request was geoff wanted — matters. the request was geoff wanted to come and meet me and it might— wanted to come and meet me and it might have — wanted to come and meet me and it might have been in parliament the following _ might have been in parliament the following day. the might have been in parliament the following day-— following day. the evidence from duncan hamilton, _ following day. the evidence from duncan hamilton, it _ following day. the evidence from duncan hamilton, it is _ following day. the evidence from duncan hamilton, it is clear- following day. the evidence from duncan hamilton, it is clear they| duncan hamilton, it is clear they are corroborating _ duncan hamilton, it is clear they are corroborating the _ duncan hamilton, it is clear they are corroborating the first - are corroborating the first minister's _ are corroborating the first minister's version - are corroborating the first minister's version of - are corroborating the first. minister's version of events are corroborating the first - minister's version of events are not your own _ minister's version of events are not your own l— minister's version of events are not our own. ., �* . your own. i don't have it in here and i'm your own. i don't have it in here and m not— your own. i don't have it in here and i'm not going _ your own. i don't have it in here and i'm not going to _ your own. i don't have it in here and i'm not going to waste - your own. i don't have it in here and i'm not going to waste time digging — and i'm not going to waste time digging it — and i'm not going to waste time digging it out but in terms of the meeting — digging it out but in terms of the meeting on the 29th of march was requested by my office?

i would have to just double—check what _ i would have to just double—check what mr— i would have to just double—check what mr salmond _ i would have to just double—check what mr salmond said _ i would have to just double—check what mr salmond said in - i would have to just double—check what mr salmond said in the - i would have to just double—check. what mr salmond said in the official report— what mr salmond said in the official report about — what mr salmond said in the official report about that. _ what mr salmond said in the official report about that. he _ what mr salmond said in the official report about that. he certainly- what mr salmond said in the official report about that. he certainly said | report about that. he certainly said the meeting — report about that. he certainly said the meeting was— report about that. he certainly said the meeting was prearranged. - report about that. he certainly said the meeting was prearranged. 50 l report about that. he certainly said the meeting was prearranged. 50 [| the meeting was prearranged. so i have the meeting was prearranged. have explained that bit, and i the meeting was prearranged.” have explained that bit, and i may be wrong — have explained that bit, and i may be wrong here, but i was not of the view that— be wrong here, but i was not of the view that he — be wrong here, but i was not of the view that he claimed it had been requested. view that he claimed it had been requested-— view that he claimed it had been i requested._ anyway, requested. right, i will... anyway, i'm ha - requested. right, i will... anyway, l'm happy to _ requested. right, i will... anyway, l'm happy to come _ requested. right, i will... anyway, i'm happy to come back— requested. right, i will... anyway, i'm happy to come back to - requested. right, i will... anyway, i'm happy to come back to this. - requested. right, i will... anyway, | i'm happy to come back to this. can i'm happy to come back to this. can i su: est, i'm happy to come back to this. i suggest, mr i'm happy to come back to this. can i suggest, mr fraser, that you go onto your other questions and we can ask her clerks to check that? i will ask her clerks to check that? i will do, thank ask her clerks to check that? i will do. thank you. — ask her clerks to check that? i will do, thank you, convener. - ask her clerks to check that? i will do, thank you, convener. this all comes— do, thank you, convener. this all comes back— do, thank you, convener. this all comes back to— do, thank you, convener. this all comes back to the _ do, thank you, convener. this all comes back to the question - do, thank you, convener. this all comes back to the question of. comes back to the question of corroboration. _ comes back to the question of corroboration. i— comes back to the question of corroboration. i put _ comes back to the question of corroboration. i put this - comes back to the question of corroboration. i put this to - comes back to the question of| corroboration. i put this to you earlier. — corroboration. i put this to you earlier, because _ corroboration. i put this to you earlier, because we _ corroboration. i put this to you earlier, because we had - corroboration. i put this to you earlier, because we had a - earlier, because we had a conversation _ earlier, because we had a conversation this- earlier, because we had aj conversation this morning earlier, because we had a - conversation this morning about earlier, because we had a _ conversation this morning about the claims _ conversation this morning about the claims that— conversation this morning about the claims that the _ conversation this morning about the claims that the name _ conversation this morning about the claims that the name of— conversation this morning about the claims that the name of the - claims that the name of the complainant— claims that the name of the complainant had _ claims that the name of the complainant had been- claims that the name of the l complainant had been passed claims that the name of the - complainant had been passed on to the complainant had been passed onto the former— complainant had been passed on to the former first _ complainant had been passed on to the former first minister, - complainant had been passed on to the former first minister, to - complainant had been passed on to the former first minister, to geoffi the former first minister, to geoff aberdein— the former first minister, to geoff aberdein and _ the former first minister, to geoff aberdein and then _ the former first minister, to geoff aberdein and then to _ the former first minister, to geoff aberdein and then to the - the former first minister, to geoff aberdein and then to the former l

aberdein and then to the former first _ aberdein and then to the former first minister, _ aberdein and then to the former first minister, and _ aberdein and then to the former first minister, and you - aberdein and then to the former first minister, and you said, - aberdein and then to the former i first minister, and you said, well, you basically— first minister, and you said, well, you basically deny— first minister, and you said, well, you basically deny that. _ first minister, and you said, well, you basically deny that. i- first minister, and you said, well, you basically deny that. i pointedi you basically deny that. i pointed out to— you basically deny that. i pointed out to you — you basically deny that. i pointed out to you that _ you basically deny that. i pointed out to you that these _ you basically deny that. i pointed out to you that these claims - you basically deny that. i pointed| out to you that these claims were corroborated _ out to you that these claims were corroborated by _ out to you that these claims were corroborated by the _ out to you that these claims were corroborated by the evidence - out to you that these claims were i corroborated by the evidence we've had. corroborated by the evidence we've had i_ corroborated by the evidence we've had i mean. — corroborated by the evidence we've had i mean. why— corroborated by the evidence we've had. i mean, why would _ corroborated by the evidence we've had. i mean, why would people - corroborated by the evidence we've| had. i mean, why would people like duncan _ had. i mean, why would people like duncan hamilton— had. i mean, why would people like duncan hamilton and _ had. i mean, why would people like duncan hamilton and kevin - had. i mean, why would people like duncan hamilton and kevin pringlei duncan hamilton and kevin pringle band together _ duncan hamilton and kevin pringle band together to— duncan hamilton and kevin pringle band together to make _ duncan hamilton and kevin pringle band together to make these - duncan hamilton and kevin pringlei band together to make these claims if they— band together to make these claims if they weren't — band together to make these claims if they weren't true? _ band together to make these claims if they weren't true? i _ band together to make these claims if they weren't true? i am“ _ band together to make these claims if they weren't true?— if they weren't true? i am not suggesting — if they weren't true? i am not suggesting anyone _ if they weren't true? i am not suggesting anyone is - if they weren't true? i am not suggesting anyone is doing i if they weren't true? i am not. suggesting anyone is doing that, if they weren't true? i am not - suggesting anyone is doing that, all i am saying is that duncan and kevin went in— i am saying is that duncan and kevin went in either of the conversations, so what _ went in either of the conversations, so what they were told about them, i can't speak— so what they were told about them, i can't speak to. there was a third person— can't speak to. there was a third person in— can't speak to. there was a third person in the room on the 29th of march. _ person in the room on the 29th of march. and — person in the room on the 29th of march, and again, it would be somebody of the committee would be able to— somebody of the committee would be able to take private evidence from, so in _ able to take private evidence from, so in a _ able to take private evidence from, so in a sense how do i corroborate that. _ so in a sense how do i corroborate that. there — so in a sense how do i corroborate that, there was a third person in the room? — that, there was a third person in the room? 0n the 29th of march, i will come — the room? 0n the 29th of march, i will come back to something i said in my— will come back to something i said in my opening statement, i absolutely accept that my forgetting about the meeting and then genuinely the 29th— about the meeting and then genuinely the 29th of march recollection not being _ the 29th of march recollection not being as _ the 29th of march recollection not being as clear as i would like it to being as clear as i would like it to be is _ being as clear as i would like it to be is not — being as clear as i would like it to be is not helpful to me, let alone anybody — be is not helpful to me, let alone anybody else, but i come back to

this. _ anybody else, but i come back to this. why— anybody else, but i come back to this, why would i have gone to such great _ this, why would i have gone to such great lengths to conceal the 29th of march? _ great lengths to conceal the 29th of march? if— great lengths to conceal the 29th of march? if i— great lengths to conceal the 29th of march? if i had known everything on the 29th— march? if i had known everything on the 29th of— march? if i had known everything on the 29th of march, the fact i was being _ the 29th of march, the fact i was being told — the 29th of march, the fact i was being told that he was in distress and might— being told that he was in distress and might resign, ithink being told that he was in distress and might resign, i think i would probably— and might resign, i think i would probably still have agreed to see him. _ probably still have agreed to see him. and — probably still have agreed to see him, and my decisions around notifying. _ him, and my decisions around notifying, as i said, were not actually— notifying, as i said, were not actually based on the classification of the _ actually based on the classification of the meeting. they were based on my considerations of independence and confidentiality of the process, so i and confidentiality of the process, so i don't — and confidentiality of the process, so i don't think, have the 29th of march _ so i don't think, have the 29th of march been something more than i am remembering, that it would have changed — remembering, that it would have changed the course of things, so i come _ changed the course of things, so i come back— changed the course of things, so i come back to this, why would i have gone _ come back to this, why would i have gone to— come back to this, why would i have gone to such — come back to this, why would i have gone to such great lengths and the jeopardy— gone to such great lengths and the jeopardy of that to sort of conceal that it _ jeopardy of that to sort of conceal that it happened? it doesn't make sense. _ that it happened? it doesn't make sense. in— that it happened? it doesn't make sense, in my mind, that i would have done _ sense, in my mind, that i would have done that _ sense, in my mind, that i would have done that l— sense, in my mind, that i would have done that. ., ., . , done that. i found the quote i was searchin: done that. i found the quote i was searching for. _ done that. i found the quote i was searching for, in _ done that. i found the quote i was searching for, in paragraph - done that. i found the quote i was searching for, in paragraph 75 - done that. i found the quote i was searching for, in paragraph 75 of l searching for, in paragraph 75 of the former— searching for, in paragraph 75 of the former first _ searching for, in paragraph 75 of the former first minister's - the former first minister's evidence. _ the former first minister's evidence, and _ the former first minister's evidence, and he - the former first minister's evidence, and he says - the former first minister'si evidence, and he says this, the former first minister's . evidence, and he says this, i the former first minister's - evidence, and he says this, i would 'ust evidence, and he says this, i would

just guoted — evidence, and he says this, i would just guoted to _ evidence, and he says this, i would just guoted to you. _ evidence, and he says this, i would just quoted to you, he _ evidence, and he says this, i would just quoted to you, he told - evidence, and he says this, i would just quoted to you, he told me - evidence, and he says this, i would just quoted to you, he told me the| just quoted to you, he told me the meeting _ just quoted to you, he told me the meeting was— just quoted to you, he told me the meeting was going _ just quoted to you, he told me the meeting was going to _ just quoted to you, he told me the meeting was going to take - just quoted to you, he told me the meeting was going to take place . just quoted to you, he told me the| meeting was going to take place on 29th march. — meeting was going to take place on 29th march. as _ meeting was going to take place on 29th march, as you _ meeting was going to take place on 29th march, as you know. - meeting was going to take place on 29th march, as you know. mr- meeting was going to take place on - 29th march, as you know. mr aberdeen had been _ 29th march, as you know. mr aberdeen had been approached _ 29th march, as you know. mr aberdeen had been approached by _ 29th march, as you know. mr aberdeen had been approached by another - had been approached by another official— had been approached by another official who _ had been approached by another official who had _ had been approached by another official who had brought- had been approached by another official who had brought him - had been approached by another| official who had brought him into the process _ official who had brought him into the process. the _ official who had brought him into the process. the meeting - official who had brought him into the process. the meeting was. official who had brought him into - the process. the meeting was taking place _ the process. the meeting was taking place with— the process. the meeting was taking place with a — the process. the meeting was taking place with a view— the process. the meeting was taking place with a view to _ the process. the meeting was taking place with a view to briefing - the process. the meeting was taking place with a view to briefing nicola . place with a view to briefing nicola and arranging _ place with a view to briefing nicola and arranging the _ place with a view to briefing nicola and arranging the meeting - place with a view to briefing nicola and arranging the meeting of- place with a view to briefing nicola and arranging the meeting of the i place with a view to briefing nicola . and arranging the meeting of the 2nd of april _ and arranging the meeting of the 2nd of aril. �* . . and arranging the meeting of the 2nd of aril. . . . ., of april. again we are getting into territory here _ of april. again we are getting into territory here where _ of april. again we are getting into territory here where i _ of april. again we are getting into territory here where i have - of april. again we are getting into territory here where i have to - of april. again we are getting into territory here where i have to be i territory here where i have to be careful— territory here where i have to be careful what i say, but it is not my understanding that the meeting on 29th of— understanding that the meeting on 29th of march was requested by my office _ 29th of march was requested by my office it _ 29th of march was requested by my office. it was geoff aberdein wanted to come _ office. it was geoff aberdein wanted to come to _ office. it was geoff aberdein wanted to come to see me, again, you know, these _ to come to see me, again, you know, these are _ to come to see me, again, you know, these are people that can be heard from by— these are people that can be heard from by the committee in private. there _ from by the committee in private. there was— from by the committee in private. there was one other point, i can't remember— there was one other point, i can't remember the other point i wanted to make. _ remember the other point i wanted to make. my— remember the other point i wanted to make, my apologies. canl remember the other point i wanted to make, my apologies.— make, my apologies. can i talk briefly about _ make, my apologies. can i talk briefly about the _ make, my apologies. can i talk briefly about the meeting - make, my apologies. can i talk briefly about the meeting on i make, my apologies. can i talk. briefly about the meeting on 22nd make, my apologies. can i talk- briefly about the meeting on 22nd of april. _ briefly about the meeting on 22nd of april. because — briefly about the meeting on 22nd of april, because when _ briefly about the meeting on 22nd of april, because when we _ briefly about the meeting on 22nd of april, because when we heard - briefly about the meeting on 22nd of april, because when we heard —— - briefly about the meeting on 22nd ofi april, because when we heard —— 2nd of april. _ april, because when we heard —— 2nd of april. when— april, because when we heard —— 2nd of april. when we _ april, because when we heard —— 2nd of april, when we had _ april, because when we heard —— 2nd of april, when we had peter- april, because when we heard —— 2nd of april, when we had peter murrell,| of april, when we had peter murrell, your husband. — of april, when we had peter murrell, your husband, sitting _ of april, when we had peter murrell, your husband, sitting where - of april, when we had peter murrell, your husband, sitting where you - of april, when we had peter murrell, your husband, sitting where you are i your husband, sitting where you are how. _ your husband, sitting where you are now. he _ your husband, sitting where you are now. he was— your husband, sitting where you are now. he was very _ your husband, sitting where you are now, he was very clear— your husband, sitting where you are now, he was very clear in _ your husband, sitting where you are now, he was very clear in his - your husband, sitting where you are now, he was very clear in his view . now, he was very clear in his view that this _ now, he was very clear in his view that this was _ now, he was very clear in his view that this was a _ now, he was very clear in his view that this was a meeting _ now, he was very clear in his view that this was a meeting on - now, he was very clear in his view. that this was a meeting on scottish government— that this was a meeting on scottish government business, _ that this was a meeting on scottish government business, and - that this was a meeting on scottish government business, and i- that this was a meeting on scottish. government business, and i pressed him on _ government business, and i pressed him on that— government business, and i pressed him on that because _ government business, and i pressed him on that because i—

government business, and i pressed him on that because i was _ government business, and i pressed him on that because i was quite - him on that because i was quite surprised — him on that because i was quite surprised that _ him on that because i was quite surprised that he _ him on that because i was quite surprised that he was _ him on that because i was quite surprised that he was so - him on that because i was quite l surprised that he was so adamant that that — surprised that he was so adamant that that was _ surprised that he was so adamant that that was his _ surprised that he was so adamant that that was his view, _ surprised that he was so adamant that that was his view, that - surprised that he was so adamant that that was his view, that was l that that was his view, that was very— that that was his view, that was very clearly _ that that was his view, that was very clearly has _ that that was his view, that was very clearly has view. _ that that was his view, that was very clearly has view. now- that that was his view, that was i very clearly has view. now perhaps when _ very clearly has view. now perhaps when he _ very clearly has view. now perhaps when he got — very clearly has view. now perhaps when he got home _ very clearly has view. now perhaps when he got home you _ very clearly has view. now perhaps when he got home you had - very clearly has view. now perhaps when he got home you had words i very clearly has view. now perhaps i when he got home you had words with him, when he got home you had words with him. but _ when he got home you had words with him. but that— when he got home you had words with him, but that was _ when he got home you had words with him, but that was the _ when he got home you had words with him, but that was the position - when he got home you had words with him, but that was the position he - him, but that was the position he took _ him, but that was the position he took l— him, but that was the position he took. ., �* . . ., , took. i wouldn't have had words with him because — took. i wouldn't have had words with him because l _ took. i wouldn't have had words with him because i might _ took. i wouldn't have had words with him because i might have _ took. i wouldn't have had words with him because i might have thought i him because i might have thought doing _ him because i might have thought doing so— him because i might have thought doing so might have jeopardised me getting _ doing so might have jeopardised me getting my teeth at night. he didn't know the _ getting my teeth at night. he didn't know the basis of the meeting, so he is also _ know the basis of the meeting, so he is also you _ know the basis of the meeting, so he is also you know, appearing in front of a parliamentary committee like this one _ of a parliamentary committee like this one is — of a parliamentary committee like this one is not normal for any of us but it— this one is not normal for any of us but it is— this one is not normal for any of us but it is more — this one is not normal for any of us but it is more normal... he is not practised — but it is more normal... he is not practised at — but it is more normal... he is not practised at sitting in front of a parliamentary committee. that was his, parliamentary committee. that was his. i_ parliamentary committee. that was his. i guess. — parliamentary committee. that was his, i guess, assumption, based on the fact— his, i guess, assumption, based on the fact that — his, i guess, assumption, based on the fact that i wasn't telling him what _ the fact that i wasn't telling him what was — the fact that i wasn't telling him what was going on. he didn't know the basis _ what was going on. he didn't know the basis of— what was going on. he didn't know the basis of the meeting, and i think— the basis of the meeting, and i think he — the basis of the meeting, and i think he said that he was drawing from _ think he said that he was drawing from my— think he said that he was drawing from my evidence. but can i emphasise this point again? it might be the _ emphasise this point again? it might be the third of fourth time i have done _ be the third of fourth time i have done and — be the third of fourth time i have done and the reason i am doing it is because _ done and the reason i am doing it is because i_ done and the reason i am doing it is because i take responsibility for the confusion here. what i decided to do— the confusion here. what i decided to do and _ the confusion here. what i decided to do and not to do as a result of

that meeting, in terms of notification under the ministerial code. _ notification under the ministerial code. was— notification under the ministerial code, was not down to my classification of whether it was party _ classification of whether it was party or— classification of whether it was party or government. i agreed to the meeting _ party or government. i agreed to the meeting on— party or government. i agreed to the meeting on party personal grounds. clearly— meeting on party personal grounds. clearly what he came to discuss with me was— clearly what he came to discuss with me was a _ clearly what he came to discuss with me was a government investigation. what _ me was a government investigation. what i _ me was a government investigation. what i decided to do then, though, i have got— what i decided to do then, though, i have got to — what i decided to do then, though, i have got to say this was a party meeting — have got to say this was a party meeting and not a government one, so i meeting and not a government one, so i don't _ meeting and not a government one, so i don't have _ meeting and not a government one, so i don't have to notify, my decision on idon't have to notify, my decision on that— idon't have to notify, my decision on that was— i don't have to notify, my decision on that was based on what i've already— on that was based on what i've already set out. my view that by telling _ already set out. my view that by telling people in the government that i_ telling people in the government that i knew would potentially compromise the independence and the confidentiality, so that is a bit that— confidentiality, so that is a bit that i— confidentiality, so that is a bit that i think i have managed to convey— that i think i have managed to convey a — that i think i have managed to convey a properly, which is why i'm trying _ convey a properly, which is why i'm trying to— convey a properly, which is why i'm trying to explain that today. so in a sense. — trying to explain that today. so in a sense, this, oh, but if it was government not party, so you must have breached the code, that was not the basis _ have breached the code, that was not the basis for— have breached the code, that was not the basis for the decisions i took a bow notification under the ministerial code.- bow notification under the ministerial code. bow notification under the ministerialcode. ., . ~ ministerial code. you say that mr murrell wasn't _

ministerial code. you say that mr murrell wasn't clear _ ministerial code. you say that mr murrell wasn't clear what - ministerial code. you say that mr murrell wasn't clear what the - murrell wasn't clear what the meeting _ murrell wasn't clear what the meeting was— murrell wasn't clear what the meeting was about _ murrell wasn't clear what the meeting was about but - murrell wasn't clear what the meeting was about but he i murrell wasn't clear what the i meeting was about but he was murrell wasn't clear what the - meeting was about but he was very clear when— meeting was about but he was very clear when he — meeting was about but he was very clear when he answered _ meeting was about but he was very clear when he answered our- clear when he answered our questions _ clear when he answered our questions l— clear when he answered our questions-— clear when he answered our cuestions. . . , . questions. i have read his evidence, he was also — questions. i have read his evidence, he was also i _ questions. i have read his evidence, he was also i think, _ questions. i have read his evidence, he was also i think, in _ questions. i have read his evidence, he was also i think, in fact - questions. i have read his evidence, he was also i think, in fact i - questions. i have read his evidence, he was also i think, in fact i know, i he was also i think, in fact i know, he was also i think, in fact i know, he was _ he was also i think, in fact i know, he was making the point that he was basing _ he was making the point that he was basing his _ he was making the point that he was basing his answers on his interpretation of my written evidence. but the point of the matter— evidence. but the point of the matter is— evidence. but the point of the matter is he wasn't in a position to judge _ matter is he wasn't in a position to judge the — matter is he wasn't in a position to judge the basis of the meeting, so he was _ judge the basis of the meeting, so he was making assumptions on the basis _ he was making assumptions on the basis of— he was making assumptions on the basis of evidence that he had read. do you _ basis of evidence that he had read. do you think people giving evidence to a parliamentary— do you think people giving evidence to a parliamentary committee - do you think people giving evidence | to a parliamentary committee under oath should — to a parliamentary committee under oath should make _ to a parliamentary committee under oath should make assumptions - to a parliamentary committee underi oath should make assumptions when they answer— oath should make assumptions when they answer questions? _ oath should make assumptions when they answer questions? [— oath should make assumptions when they answer questions?— they answer questions? i think like i am doint they answer questions? i think like i am doing today. _ they answer questions? i think like i am doing today, people _ they answer questions? i think like i am doing today, people should i they answer questions? i think like | i am doing today, people should try to be _ i am doing today, people should try to be helpful, and i believe, having read his— to be helpful, and i believe, having read his evidence, that he appeared before _ read his evidence, that he appeared before this — read his evidence, that he appeared before this committee on two occasions, and i believe the answer the questions appropriately and truthfully. the questions appropriately and truthfull . �* ., truthfully. 0k. after the former first minister _ truthfully. 0k. after the former first minister gave _ truthfully. 0k. after the former first minister gave evidence - truthfully. 0k. after the former i first minister gave evidence here truthfully. 0k. after the former -

first minister gave evidence here on friday. _ first minister gave evidence here on friday. a _ first minister gave evidence here on friday, a spokesman— first minister gave evidence here on friday, a spokesman for— first minister gave evidence here on friday, a spokesman for the - first minister gave evidence here on| friday, a spokesman for the scottish comment— friday, a spokesman for the scottish comment so— friday, a spokesman for the scottish comment so there _ friday, a spokesman for the scottish comment so there was _ friday, a spokesman for the scottish comment so there was no _ friday, a spokesman for the scottish comment so there was no evidence i friday, a spokesman for the scottish. comment so there was no evidence to back up— comment so there was no evidence to back up claims— comment so there was no evidence to back up claims are _ comment so there was no evidence to back up claims are the _ comment so there was no evidence to back up claims are the committee - comment so there was no evidence to back up claims are the committee has now found _ back up claims are the committee has now found evidence, _ back up claims are the committee has now found evidence, had _ now found evidence, had corroboration— now found evidence, had corroboration of- now found evidence, had corroboration of various i now found evidence, had _ corroboration of various statements he made. _ corroboration of various statements he made. from _ corroboration of various statements he made, from duncan _ corroboration of various statements he made, from duncan hamilton. corroboration of various statementsi he made, from duncan hamilton and kevin _ he made, from duncan hamilton and kevin pringle. — he made, from duncan hamilton and kevin pringle. as— he made, from duncan hamilton and kevin pringle, as we _ he made, from duncan hamilton and kevin pringle, as we pointed - he made, from duncan hamilton and kevin pringle, as we pointed out- he made, from duncan hamilton and kevin pringle, as we pointed out to i kevin pringle, as we pointed out to you. kevin pringle, as we pointed out to you would — kevin pringle, as we pointed out to you. would you _ kevin pringle, as we pointed out to you. would you withdraw _ kevin pringle, as we pointed out to you. would you withdraw the - kevin pringle, as we pointed out to i you. would you withdraw the scottish government's— you. would you withdraw the scottish government's statement _ you. would you withdraw the scottish government's statement that - you. would you withdraw the scottish government's statement that there i you. would you withdraw the scottishj government's statement that there is no evidence? — government's statement that there is no evidence? it— government's statement that there is no evidence? it is— government's statement that there is no evidence? it is quite _ government's statement that there is no evidence? it is quite clear- government's statement that there is no evidence? it is quite clear there i no evidence? it is quite clear there is evidence — no evidence? it is quite clear there is evidence l— no evidence? it is quite clear there is evidence-— is evidence. i wouldn't accept, and this is not me _ is evidence. i wouldn't accept, and this is not me questioning - is evidence. i wouldn't accept, and this is not me questioning the - this is not me questioning the sincerity— this is not me questioning the sincerity of the statements that have _ sincerity of the statements that have been made, but i don't believe it added _ have been made, but i don't believe it added up— have been made, but i don't believe it added up to what you're saying. you are _ it added up to what you're saying. you are talking about people who were _ you are talking about people who were not— you are talking about people who were not in either of the discussions, so they are reporting things— discussions, so they are reporting things that — discussions, so they are reporting things that were told. now, part of it, things that were told. now, part of it. and _ things that were told. now, part of it, and hugely frustrating for me that for— it, and hugely frustrating for me that for reasons i entirely understand, the people who were in these _ understand, the people who were in these discussions, apart from me in relation _ these discussions, apart from me in relation to— these discussions, apart from me in relation to the 29th of march, are not able — relation to the 29th of march, are not able to— relation to the 29th of march, are not able to give their accounts. they— not able to give their accounts. they can't _ not able to give their accounts. they can't do that publicly here, for reasons _ they can't do that publicly here, for reasons that we are all aware of, for reasons that we are all aware of. they— for reasons that we are all aware of. they can _ for reasons that we are all aware of, they can do it to james hamilton, and he will reach whatever

conclusions _ hamilton, and he will reach whatever conclusions he reaches, and as i say. _ conclusions he reaches, and as i say. it— conclusions he reaches, and as i say, it would be open to the committee to speak to them privately, to get their account. so i privately, to get their account. so i don't _ privately, to get their account. so i don't accept the assumptions and characterisations you were making. i think— characterisations you were making. i think when— characterisations you were making. i think when i— characterisations you were making. i think when i was speaking last week about— think when i was speaking last week about evidence, and i would add to this more _ about evidence, and i would add to this more generally, but i was specifically on a couple of occasions last week talking about the complete lack of evidence of the suggestion that all of this was some plot that— suggestion that all of this was some plot that had been tripped up against — plot that had been tripped up against alex salmond, which, in my view. _ against alex salmond, which, in my view. there — against alex salmond, which, in my view, there is zero evidence of. gk, view, there is zero evidence of. ok, i don't view, there is zero evidence of. ok, i don't want — view, there is zero evidence of. ok, i don't want to _ view, there is zero evidence of. ok, i don't want to get _ view, there is zero evidence of. ok, i don't want to get into plots, not interested — idon't want to get into plots, not interested in— i don't want to get into plots, not interested in pursuing _ i don't want to get into plots, not interested in pursuing that. - i don't want to get into plots, not interested in pursuing that. but i i don't want to get into plots, not. interested in pursuing that. but you being _ interested in pursuing that. but you being a _ interested in pursuing that. but you being a lawyer _ interested in pursuing that. but you being a lawyer will— interested in pursuing that. but you being a lawyer will be _ interested in pursuing that. but you being a lawyer will be well - interested in pursuing that. but you being a lawyer will be well aware i being a lawyer will be well aware that contemporaneous _ being a lawyer will be well aware i that contemporaneous statements count — that contemporaneous statements count towards — that contemporaneous statements count towards corroboration, - that contemporaneous statements count towards corroboration, and i count towards corroboration, and therefore — count towards corroboration, and therefore the _ count towards corroboration, and therefore the evidence _ count towards corroboration, and therefore the evidence we - count towards corroboration, and therefore the evidence we have i count towards corroboration, and - therefore the evidence we have from duncan _ therefore the evidence we have from duncan hamilton _ therefore the evidence we have from duncan hamilton and _ therefore the evidence we have from duncan hamilton and kevin - therefore the evidence we have from duncan hamilton and kevin pringle l duncan hamilton and kevin pringle points— duncan hamilton and kevin pringle points to _ duncan hamilton and kevin pringle points to contemporaneous - points to contemporaneous statements? _ points to contemporaneous statements?— points to contemporaneous statements? . . ,, ,., statements? can i make the point, not really making _ statements? can i make the point, not really making it _ statements? can i make the point, not really making it as _ statements? can i make the point, not really making it as a _ statements? can i make the point,

not really making it as a lawyer, i not really making it as a lawyer, 'ust not really making it as a lawyer, just as _ not really making it as a lawyer, just as a — not really making it as a lawyer, just as a person, having contemporaneous statements from people — contemporaneous statements from people who were told things when you haven't _ people who were told things when you haven't heard from the people who actually _ haven't heard from the people who actually supposedly set them would seem to _ actually supposedly set them would seem to me to be a bit of a missing bit. �* , ., . , seem to me to be a bit of a missing bit. �* ,~. . , . bit. but you are still alleging, first minister, _ bit. but you are still alleging, first minister, that _ bit. but you are still alleging, first minister, that the - bit. but you are still alleging, | first minister, that the source bit. but you are still alleging, i first minister, that the source of all this. — first minister, that the source of allthis, geoff— first minister, that the source of all this, geoff aberdein, - first minister, that the source of all this, geoff aberdein, is- first minister, that the source of| all this, geoff aberdein, is giving all this, geoff aberdein, is giving a false _ all this, geoff aberdein, is giving a false assessment _ all this, geoff aberdein, is giving a false assessment of _ all this, geoff aberdein, is giving a false assessment of events? i all this, geoff aberdein, is giving. a false assessment of events? i’m“ a false assessment of events? i'm not. i a false assessment of events? i'm not- i haven't _ a false assessment of events? not. i haven't heard geoff's evidence _ not. i haven't heard geoff's evidence directly. one of the distressing personal things for this is the _ distressing personal things for this is the relationships that have been collateral— is the relationships that have been collateral damage. geoff is somebody that i collateral damage. geoff is somebody that i think— collateral damage. geoff is somebody that i think very highly of. i am fond _ that i think very highly of. i am fond of— that i think very highly of. i am fond of him. we have not been able to speak— fond of him. we have not been able to speak because of this. i am not here _ to speak because of this. i am not here to _ to speak because of this. i am not here to cast— to speak because of this. i am not here to cast aspersions, but there are different accounts. i was present— are different accounts. i was present on 29th of march, i wasn't present— present on 29th of march, i wasn't present in— present on 29th of march, i wasn't present in the other one, but the views— present in the other one, but the views of— present in the other one, but the views of the people who were there to explain— views of the people who were there to explain that these are just clashing _ to explain that these are just clashing accounts, or whether there was actually an explanation for a

misunderstanding, is really an essential— misunderstanding, is really an essential part of the process. you don't _ essential part of the process. you don't have — essential part of the process. you don't have the account you are seeking — don't have the account you are seeking to— don't have the account you are seeking to corroborate before you -et seeking to corroborate before you get to _ seeking to corroborate before you get to the — seeking to corroborate before you get to the corroborating evidence. you have — get to the corroborating evidence. you have accused alex salmond on a number— you have accused alex salmond on a number of— you have accused alex salmond on a number of occasions _ you have accused alex salmond on a number of occasions of _ you have accused alex salmond on a number of occasions of spreading - number of occasions of spreading dangerous— number of occasions of spreading dangerous conspiracy— number of occasions of spreading dangerous conspiracy theories. i dangerous conspiracy theories. aren't — dangerous conspiracy theories. aren't you _ dangerous conspiracy theories. aren't you in— dangerous conspiracy theories. aren't you in effect _ dangerous conspiracy theories. aren't you in effect doing - dangerous conspiracy theories. aren't you in effect doing the l dangerous conspiracy theories. - aren't you in effect doing the same yourself— aren't you in effect doing the same yourself by— aren't you in effect doing the same yourself by pointing _ aren't you in effect doing the same yourself by pointing these - aren't you in effect doing the same yourself by pointing these group i aren't you in effect doing the same yourself by pointing these group of| yourself by pointing these group of individuals— yourself by pointing these group of individuals close _ yourself by pointing these group of individuals close to _ yourself by pointing these group of individuals close to alex _ yourself by pointing these group of individuals close to alex salmond i yourself by pointing these group of. individuals close to alex salmond as being _ individuals close to alex salmond as being part _ individuals close to alex salmond as being part of— individuals close to alex salmond as being part ofa — individuals close to alex salmond as being part of a conspiracy? - individuals close to alex salmond as being part of a conspiracy? ho, - being part of a conspiracy? no, oint me being part of a conspiracy? no, point me to _ being part of a conspiracy? no, point me to where _ being part of a conspiracy? no, point me to where i _ being part of a conspiracy? point me to where i have said being part of a conspiracy?- point me to where i have said that. you have _ point me to where i have said that. you have just said it. you have just said the _ you have just said it. you have just said the evidence _ you have just said it. you have just said the evidence we _ you have just said it. you have just said the evidence we are _ you have just said it. you have just| said the evidence we are presented with may— said the evidence we are presented with may not — said the evidence we are presented with may not be _ said the evidence we are presented with may not be correct. _ said the evidence we are presented with may not be correct. i- said the evidence we are presented with may not be correct.— with may not be correct. i have not heard the direct _ with may not be correct. i have not heard the direct account _ with may not be correct. i have not heard the direct account from - with may not be correct. i have not| heard the direct account from geoff aberdein. _ heard the direct account from geoff aberdein, so i making the point that there _ aberdein, so i making the point that there are _ aberdein, so i making the point that there are often different accounts of conversations, and unless you have _ of conversations, and unless you have heard — of conversations, and unless you have heard from the people who have the conversation, there is a really bil the conversation, there is a really big hole _ the conversation, there is a really big hole in — the conversation, there is a really big hole in the picture you are trying — big hole in the picture you are trying to— big hole in the picture you are trying to construct. i am not here accusing — trying to construct. i am not here accusing anybody of anything. i'm not doing — accusing anybody of anything. i'm not doing that. i'm saying on one i

have _ not doing that. i'm saying on one i have a _ not doing that. i'm saying on one i have a different understanding, based _ have a different understanding, based on — have a different understanding, based on what i have been told, and on the _ based on what i have been told, and on the conversation that i was a party— on the conversation that i was a party to. — on the conversation that i was a party to. i— on the conversation that i was a party to, i have tried to the best of my— party to, i have tried to the best of my recollection to give you an account — of my recollection to give you an account of— of my recollection to give you an account of that. the two other people — account of that. the two other people in— account of that. the two other people in the room, geoff aberdein and another individual, i don't know what _ and another individual, i don't know what the _ and another individual, i don't know what the committee has seen from geoff— what the committee has seen from geoff but— what the committee has seen from geoff but on the other hand haven't heard _ geoff but on the other hand haven't heard from — geoff but on the other hand haven't heard from so i'm not can accusing anyone _ heard from so i'm not can accusing anyone of— heard from so i'm not can accusing anyone of a — heard from so i'm not can accusing anyone of a plot or a conspiracy or anything. — anyone of a plot or a conspiracy or anything. i— anyone of a plot or a conspiracy or anything, i think there has probably been enough of that in this whole episode — been enough of that in this whole eisode. . , ,~. been enough of that in this whole eisode. . , ,, . been enough of that in this whole eisode. . , . episode. finally, you have said some ve harsh episode. finally, you have said some very harsh things _ episode. finally, you have said some very harsh things about _ episode. finally, you have said some very harsh things about the - episode. finally, you have said some very harsh things about the former. very harsh things about the former first minister. _ very harsh things about the former first minister. as— very harsh things about the former first minister. as a _ very harsh things about the former first minister. as a political- first minister. as a political opponent— first minister. as a political opponent '— first minister. as a political opponent i have _ first minister. as a political opponent i have said - first minister. as a political opponent i have said some| first minister. as a political- opponent i have said some harsh things— opponent i have said some harsh things about _ opponent i have said some harsh things about myself _ opponent i have said some harsh things about myself and - opponent i have said some harsh things about myself and others i opponent i have said some harsh- things about myself and others round the table _ things about myself and others round the table have — things about myself and others round the table have but _ things about myself and others round the table have but that _ things about myself and others round the table have but that might- things about myself and others round the table have but that might be - the table have but that might be expected — the table have but that might be expected from _ the table have but that might be expected from us, _ the table have but that might be expected from us, but— the table have but that might be expected from us, but you - the table have but that might be expected from us, but you are i the table have but that might bel expected from us, but you are an ally. _ expected from us, but you are an ally. a _ expected from us, but you are an ally. a close _ expected from us, but you are an ally, a close political— expected from us, but you are an ally, a close political friend - expected from us, but you are an ally, a close political friend of- ally, a close political friend of his 30 — ally, a close political friend of his 30 years. _ ally, a close political friend of his 30 years, you _ ally, a close political friend of his 30 years, you were - ally, a close political friend of his 30 years, you were his- ally, a close political friend of- his 30 years, you were his deputy when _ his 30 years, you were his deputy when he — his 30 years, you were his deputy when he was _ his 30 years, you were his deputy when he was first _ his 30 years, you were his deputy when he was first minister, - his 30 years, you were his deputy when he was first minister, and l when he was first minister, and succeeded — when he was first minister, and succeeded him _ when he was first minister, and succeeded him as _ when he was first minister, and succeeded him as leader- when he was first minister, and succeeded him as leader of- when he was first minister, and succeeded him as leader of the| when he was first minister, and - succeeded him as leader of the snp and first _ succeeded him as leader of the snp and first minister, _ succeeded him as leader of the snp and first minister, and _ succeeded him as leader of the snp and first minister, and all— succeeded him as leader of the snp and first minister, and all through. and first minister, and all through that period — and first minister, and all through that period you _ and first minister, and all through that period you told _

and first minister, and all through that period you told the _ and first minister, and all through that period you told the scottish l that period you told the scottish people _ that period you told the scottish people we — that period you told the scottish people we should _ that period you told the scottish people we should trust - that period you told the scottish people we should trust alex - that period you told the scottish - people we should trust alex salmond, that he _ people we should trust alex salmond, that he was— people we should trust alex salmond, that he was a — people we should trust alex salmond, that he was a man _ people we should trust alex salmond, that he was a man of— people we should trust alex salmond, that he was a man of integrity - people we should trust alex salmond, that he was a man of integrity and - that he was a man of integrity and honour. _ that he was a man of integrity and honour. not— that he was a man of integrity and honour, not least _ that he was a man of integrity and honour, not least when _ that he was a man of integrity and honour, not least when he - that he was a man of integrity and honour, not least when he was - honour, not least when he was leading — honour, not least when he was leading your _ honour, not least when he was leading your party _ honour, not least when he was leading your party to _ honour, not least when he was leading your party to try - honour, not least when he was leading your party to try to - honour, not least when he was leading your party to try to win honour, not least when he was - leading your party to try to win the independence _ leading your party to try to win the independence referendum. - leading your party to try to win the independence referendum. you i leading your party to try to win the | independence referendum. you are leading your party to try to win the - independence referendum. you are now telling _ independence referendum. you are now telling us _ independence referendum. you are now telling us we _ independence referendum. you are now telling us we shouldn't _ independence referendum. you are now telling us we shouldn't believe - independence referendum. you are now telling us we shouldn't believe a - telling us we shouldn't believe a word _ telling us we shouldn't believe a word he — telling us we shouldn't believe a word he says _ telling us we shouldn't believe a word he says. so— telling us we shouldn't believe a word he says. so when- telling us we shouldn't believe a word he says. so when did - telling us we shouldn't believe a word he says. so when did you i telling us we shouldn't believe a - word he says. so when did you decide that alex— word he says. so when did you decide that alex salmond _ word he says. so when did you decide that alex salmond was _ word he says. so when did you decide that alex salmond was no _ word he says. so when did you decide that alex salmond was no longer- word he says. so when did you decide that alex salmond was no longer the| that alex salmond was no longer the charles— that alex salmond was no longer the charles stewart _ that alex salmond was no longer the charles stewart parnell _ that alex salmond was no longer the charles stewart parnell of _ that alex salmond was no longer the charles stewart parnell of scotland, i charles stewart parnell of scotland, and was _ charles stewart parnell of scotland, and was in _ charles stewart parnell of scotland, and was in fact— charles stewart parnell of scotland, and was in fact a _ charles stewart parnell of scotland, and was in fact a liar— charles stewart parnell of scotland, and was in fact a liar and _ charles stewart parnell of scotland, and was in fact a liar and a - and was in fact a liar and a fantasist? _ and was in fact a liar and a fantasist? [— and was in fact a liar and a fantasist?— and was in fact a liar and a fantasist? ,, �* , ,,, fantasist? i haven't used those words, fantasist? i haven't used those words. and _ fantasist? i haven't used those words, and so, _ fantasist? i haven't used those words, and so, you _ fantasist? i haven't used those words, and so, you know, - fantasist? i haven't used those words, and so, you know, this| fantasist? i haven't used those i words, and so, you know, this is where _ words, and so, you know, this is where you — words, and so, you know, this is where you get into deeply personal territory. _ where you get into deeply personal territory. i— where you get into deeply personal territory, i have learned things about— territory, i have learned things about alex salmond over the past couple _ about alex salmond over the past couple of — about alex salmond over the past couple of years that have made me rethink— couple of years that have made me rethink certain things i thought about— rethink certain things i thought about him. no doubt he would say the same _ about him. no doubt he would say the same about— about him. no doubt he would say the same about me, because he has said harsh— same about me, because he has said harsh things — same about me, because he has said harsh things about me as well, and i have had _ harsh things about me as well, and i have had to — harsh things about me as well, and i have had to go through a process of reassessihg — have had to go through a process of reassessing all sorts of things around — reassessing all sorts of things around that. and, as i was watching him on _ around that. and, as i was watching him on friday, lashing out, that's my words. — him on friday, lashing out, that's

my words, against us, i don't know whether— my words, against us, i don't know whether he — my words, against us, i don't know whether he ever reflects on the fact that marry— whether he ever reflects on the fact that many of us, including me, feel very tet _ that many of us, including me, feel very let down by him, and that's a matter— very let down by him, and that's a matter of— very let down by him, and that's a matter of deep personal pain and regret, _ matter of deep personal pain and regret, for— matter of deep personal pain and regret, for me. i think i probably should _ regret, for me. i think i probably should stop there. regret, for me. ithinki probably should stop there.— regret, for me. i thinkl probably should stop there. finally, then, do ou not should stop there. finally, then, do you not think. _ should stop there. finally, then, do you not think, given _ should stop there. finally, then, do you not think, given that _ should stop there. finally, then, do you not think, given that you - should stop there. finally, then, do you not think, given that you asked | you not think, given that you asked us all— you not think, given that you asked us all to— you not think, given that you asked us all to trust — you not think, given that you asked us all to trust him _ you not think, given that you asked us all to trust him for— you not think, given that you asked us all to trust him for so _ you not think, given that you asked us all to trust him for so long, - you not think, given that you asked us all to trust him for so long, you| us all to trust him for so long, you owe ah _ us all to trust him for so long, you owe an apology— us all to trust him for so long, you owe an apology to _ us all to trust him for so long, you owe an apology to the _ us all to trust him for so long, you owe an apology to the people - us all to trust him for so long, you owe an apology to the people of. owe an apology to the people of scotland. — owe an apology to the people of scotland. for— owe an apology to the people of scotland, for asking _ owe an apology to the people of scotland, for asking us - owe an apology to the people of scotland, for asking us to - owe an apology to the people of scotland, for asking us to do - owe an apology to the people of. scotland, for asking us to do that? i trusted _ scotland, for asking us to do that? i trusted hinr. _ scotland, for asking us to do that? i trusted him, and _ scotland, for asking us to do that? itrusted him, and i— scotland, for asking us to do that? i trusted him, and i am _ scotland, for asking us to do that? itrusted him, and i am not- scotland, for asking us to do that? i trusted him, and i am not going i scotland, for asking us to do that? i i trusted him, and i am not going to apologise _ i trusted him, and i am not going to apologise for the behaviour of somebody else. if i have things in my behaviour to apologise for, i will apologise, my behaviour to apologise for, i willapologise, but my behaviour to apologise for, i will apologise, but i do not think it is reasonable to ask me to apologise for the behaviour, some of which _ apologise for the behaviour, some of which he _ apologise for the behaviour, some of which he will deny of course, of alex _ which he will deny of course, of alex salmond. i think the only person— alex salmond. i think the only person who should apologise for any trehaviour_ person who should apologise for any behaviour on his part, which he was asked _ behaviour on his part, which he was asked to _ behaviour on his part, which he was asked to do — behaviour on his part, which he was asked to do on friday, and failed to do, asked to do on friday, and failed to do. is _ asked to do on friday, and failed to do. is alex — asked to do on friday, and failed to do, is alex salmond.—

asked to do on friday, and failed to i do, is alex salmond._ 0k, do, is alex salmond. thank you. 0k, thank you- — do, is alex salmond. thank you. 0k, thank you- i — do, is alex salmond. thank you. 0k, thank you. i think _ do, is alex salmond. thank you. 0k, thank you. i think this _ do, is alex salmond. thank you. 0k, thank you. i think this is _ do, is alex salmond. thank you. 0k, thank you. i think this is an _ thank you. i think this is an appropriate time to be saying time has run on, and i still have three members, first minister, who wish to question you. but i'm also at the point where, in line with the agreed litigations to allow us to meet safely in person today, i have to suspend the session. so i think we should reconvene at 4:30pm, and aim to be finished for five o'clock. can i remind members and everyone else to observe social distancing when leaving the committee room and during the break, and i suspend this session. ,. . during the break, and i suspend this session. .. . , during the break, and i suspend this session. . , ., session. said that very long running session. said that very long running session at holyrood _ session. said that very long running session at holyrood taking - session. said that very long running session at holyrood taking a - session. said that very long running session at holyrood taking a 15 - session at holyrood taking a 15 minute break. we will be back there at liz30pm for more on that. we have been listening for many, many hours now, far more than we had anticipated, to scotland's first minister nicola sturgeon, speaking

at that enquiry into her government's handling of harassment complaints against alex salmond, her predecessor, of course. now, we will be back at holyrood to hear more of that, but let'sjust have be back at holyrood to hear more of that, but let's just have a short assessment, and just take a little look at some of the key elements, hard though it is to sum up so many hours of evidence. but, among the other comments that nicola sturgeon has been making there at holyrood, she told msps that she had acted in the public interest against a man she had once revered. l the public interest against a man she had once revered.— the public interest against a man she had once revered. i think you are putting _ she had once revered. i think you are putting something _ she had once revered. i think you are putting something to - she had once revered. i think you are putting something to me - she had once revered. i think you. are putting something to me there that i_ are putting something to me there that i wanted to say i am exposed at all costs _ that i wanted to say i am exposed at all costs. no, ithink that i wanted to say i am exposed at all costs. no, i think there that i wanted to say i am exposed at all costs. no, ithink there is that i wanted to say i am exposed at all costs. no, i think there is a public— all costs. no, i think there is a public interest if somebody has serious — public interest if somebody has serious complaints made against them and there _ serious complaints made against them and there is— serious complaints made against them and there is a procedure in place to allow— and there is a procedure in place to allow those — and there is a procedure in place to allow those to be investigated that that procedure is allowed to happen without— that procedure is allowed to happen without interference, political interference, from somebody's

powerful — interference, from somebody's powerful friend to try to divert the course _ powerful friend to try to divert the course that it would take. i think that is— course that it would take. i think that is absolutely in the public interest, — that is absolutely in the public interest, and that's the judgment i made _ interest, and that's the judgment i made. people can decide whether it was right— made. people can decide whether it was right or— made. people can decide whether it was right or wrong, but i decided that if— was right or wrong, but i decided that if i_ was right or wrong, but i decided that if i had done what he wanted me to d0. _ that if i had done what he wanted me to do. i_ that if i had done what he wanted me to do, i would have that if i had done what he wanted me to do, iwould have been that if i had done what he wanted me to do, i would have been acting that if i had done what he wanted me to do, iwould have been acting in that if i had done what he wanted me to do, i would have been acting in a way that— to do, i would have been acting in a way that was— to do, i would have been acting in a way that was improper, because i was his friend. _ way that was improper, because i was his friend, and ijust don't think anybody— his friend, and ijust don't think anybody right now would be patting me on _ anybody right now would be patting me on the — anybody right now would be patting me on the back if that is what i had chosen— me on the back if that is what i had chosen to _ me on the back if that is what i had chosen to do. but the idea... i never— chosen to do. but the idea... i never wanted, chosen to do. but the idea... i neverwanted, i chosen to do. but the idea... i never wanted, i can't tell you, i can't _ never wanted, i can't tell you, i can't find — never wanted, i can't tell you, i can't find the words to express this strongly— can't find the words to express this strongly enough, i never, ever, evei’. _ strongly enough, i never, ever, ever. ever— strongly enough, i never, ever, ever, everwanted strongly enough, i never, ever, ever, ever wanted to face a situation _ ever, ever wanted to face a situation where alex salmond, a man i situation where alex salmond, a man i have _ situation where alex salmond, a man i have revered, had revered, since i was 20 _ i have revered, had revered, since i was 20 years— i have revered, had revered, since i was 20 years old, or probably younger— was 20 years old, or probably younger than that, actually, was facing _ younger than that, actually, was facing serious allegations of sexual misconduct. i didn't want him exposed. _ misconduct. i didn't want him exposed. i_ misconduct. i didn't want him exposed, i didn't want any of this to happen —

exposed, i didn't want any of this to happen. my conduct in all of this is rightly— to happen. my conduct in all of this is rightly under scrutiny, i have no complaint — is rightly under scrutiny, i have no complaint about that, i have no right— complaint about that, i have no right to — complaint about that, i have no right to have any complaint about that. _ right to have any complaint about that. but — right to have any complaint about that, but the idea i ever wanted any of this— that, but the idea i ever wanted any of this to _ that, but the idea i ever wanted any of this to happen. this situation, however— of this to happen. this situation, however people judge i handled it, was not _ however people judge i handled it, was not a — however people judge i handled it, was not a situation of my making, and i_ was not a situation of my making, and i try— was not a situation of my making, and i try to — was not a situation of my making, and i try to handle it in the way that— and i try to handle it in the way that i_ and i try to handle it in the way that i thought was best overall, and ithink— that i thought was best overall, and i think it _ that i thought was best overall, and i think it would have been deeply wrong _ i think it would have been deeply wrong for— i think it would have been deeply wrong for me to have intervened in a way on _ wrong for me to have intervened in a way on behalf of alex salmond to try to engineerthe way on behalf of alex salmond to try to engineer the outcome he wanted. well, one of the questions facing nicola sturgeon was whether she broke ministerial code by not disclosing when she first knew of the allegations against mr salmond and meeting mr salmond on government business without any officials present or records being taken. it is an accusation that ms sturgeon vehemently denies. let's have a listen to her rebuttal now. the ministerial code imposes a range of obligations on ministers, sometimes in situations they can feel conflicting, and you have to

make _ feel conflicting, and you have to make a — feel conflicting, and you have to make a judgment. the relevant sections — make a judgment. the relevant sections of the code, in terms of notification, two to four, two to three. — notification, two to four, two to three. are — notification, two to four, two to three, are at a situation where i am at a party— three, are at a situation where i am at a party conference and a company lobbies _ at a party conference and a company lobbies me _ at a party conference and a company lobbies me about a decision i am actually— lobbies me about a decision i am actually involved in. it is about guarding — actually involved in. it is about guarding against undisclosed influence on decisions you taken. this felt— influence on decisions you taken. this felt to — influence on decisions you taken. this felt to me the opposite, this is a decision i was not party to, i wasn't _ is a decision i was not party to, i wasn't meant to know, and actually the risk— wasn't meant to know, and actually the risk that— wasn't meant to know, and actually the risk that those sections are meant — the risk that those sections are meant to— the risk that those sections are meant to guard against would more likely— meant to guard against would more likely arrive if i told people within _ likely arrive if i told people within government. any conversation that started with me saying, alex salmond — that started with me saying, alex salmond has told me about this, even unintentionally and inadvertently, does that— unintentionally and inadvertently, does that make the people doing the investigation think there is a particular thing i am trying to bring — particular thing i am trying to bring about? that was the first reason~ — bring about? that was the first reason. the second reason, if you read _ reason. the second reason, if you read the _ reason. the second reason, if you read the code in that respect, notifying _ read the code in that respect, notifying meetings in that way

involves — notifying meetings in that way involves publication, and you might all tell— involves publication, and you might all tell me — involves publication, and you might all tell me i'm wrong here but if a meeting _ all tell me i'm wrong here but if a meeting had suddenly appeared in my published _ meeting had suddenly appeared in my published diary, nicola sturgeon and alex salmond, people would have wanted _ alex salmond, people would have wanted to — alex salmond, people would have wanted to know what that was about so there _ wanted to know what that was about so there would also have been a risk to the _ so there would also have been a risk to the confidentiality. that is the judgment — to the confidentiality. that is the judgment i arrived at, this committee is looking at it but that is one _ committee is looking at it but that is one of— committee is looking at it but that is one of the issuesjames hamilton has to— is one of the issuesjames hamilton has to make a, did i get that judgment right or did i not? but the ministerial— judgment right or did i not? but the ministerial code also, other sections. _ ministerial code also, other sections, says i have an obligation to respect— sections, says i have an obligation to respect the impartiality of civil servants — to respect the impartiality of civil servants and respect the confidentiality of government business. so i weighed up all of that and — business. so i weighed up all of that and i— business. so i weighed up all of that and i came to a judgment. it is for other— that and i came to a judgment. it is for other people tojudge if i was right— for other people tojudge if i was right or— for other people tojudge if i was right or wrong, but i think i made the best— right or wrong, but i think i made the bestjudgment overall, and i think— the bestjudgment overall, and i think i_ the bestjudgment overall, and i think i made a judgment that was, in that respect, certainly defensible, and in _ that respect, certainly defensible, and in my— that respect, certainly defensible, and in my view i think i made the appropriate — and in my view i think i made the appropriate one. scotland's first minister nicola sturgeon, and we will be back at holyrood when that session resumes.

should be around about how past. we will have a little analysis from our scotland correspondent who had been listening to all of that as well. but we will try to take the next few minutes to talk about the rest of the day's big news, because of course at westminster, it is budget day. i realised i haven't even said good afternoon to you, that's very rude, isn't it? i do apologise, you are watching bbc news. i am jane hill. let's take a few minutes to understand what the chancellor rishi sunak has outlined in the commons. the chancellor, rishi sunak has outlined the government spending plans in the budget for the coming year , stressing he's opimistic about britain's recovery. mr sunak said he'd pledged to do whatever it takes to protectjobs and keep businesses afloat, and that he intended to continue doing so. government borrowing has reached a record £270 billion because of the pandemic, and the chancellor said that once the uk was on the way to recovery, he would need to begin fixing the public finances. let's take a look at

some of the key points. he confirmed the furlough scheme — which pays 80% of employees wages — will be extended until september. a further 600,000 self—employed people will be eligible for help as access to grants is widened. the national living wage will be increased to £8.91 an hour from april. the universal credit top—up of £20 per week will continue for a further six months. the 5% reduced rate of vat for tourism and hospitality will be extended for six months to the end of september. the 100% business rates holiday in england will continue from april untiljune. and the chancellor has announced that he will raise corporation tax from i9% to 25% by 2023.

with a full round—up of the budget — here's our political correspondent iain watson. the chancellor has said he will use the treasury�*s fire power to protect jobs. his critics say this glossy government video was also focused on his own career prospects. and it wasn'tjust his team, which got a peek into his red box. . wasn'tjust his team, which got a peek into his red box.— wasn'tjust his team, which got a peek into his red box. , country for this budget. _ peek into his red box. , country for this budget. mr— peek into his red box. , country for this budget, mr struna? _ peek into his red box. , country for this budget, mr struna? in - peek into his red box. , country for this budget, mr struna? in the - peek into his red box. , country for this budget, mr struna? in the old| this budget, mr struna? in the old da s, this budget, mr struna? in the old days, chancellors _ this budget, mr struna? in the old days, chancellors who _ this budget, mr struna? in the old days, chancellors who leaked - days, chancellors who leaked measures in advance were expected to resign. this time, some were released in advance but there are still surprises. first the shot, the sobering impact of the economic effect of the coronavirus crisis. since march, over 700,000 people have lost— since march, over 700,000 people have lost theirjobs. our economy has shrunk—

have lost theirjobs. our economy has shrunk by 10%, the largest fall in over— has shrunk by 10%, the largest fall in over 300 — has shrunk by 10%, the largest fall in over 300 years. our borrowing is the highest — in over 300 years. our borrowing is the highest it has been outside of wartime~ — the highest it has been outside of wartime. it's going to take this country. — wartime. it's going to take this country, and the whole world, a long time to— country, and the whole world, a long time to recover from this extraordinary economic situation. but a _ extraordinary economic situation. but a glimmer of hope. economic experts are saying there will be a quicker recovery than previously predicted. the quicker recovery than previously redicted. ' . quicker recovery than previously redicted. , . ., �* predicted. the office for budget responsibility — predicted. the office for budget responsibility are _ predicted. the office for budget responsibility are now - predicted. the office for budget i responsibility are now forecasting, in their— responsibility are now forecasting, in theirwords, a responsibility are now forecasting, in their words, a swifter and more sustained — in their words, a swifter and more sustained recovery than they expected in november. the obr now expect— expected in november. the obr now expect the _ expected in november. the obr now expect the economy to return to its pre-covid _ expect the economy to return to its pre—covid level by the middle of next _ pre—covid level by the middle of next year. — pre—covid level by the middle of next year, six months earlier than previously— next year, six months earlier than previously thought. but next year, six months earlier than previously thought.— previously thought. but that still means that _ previously thought. but that still means that short-term - previously thought. but that still means that short-term support | previously thought. but that stilll means that short-term support is means that short—term support is absolutely essential. he confirmed that the furlough scheme will now run until the end of september. grants for the self—employed will be

extended too, and 600,000 more people could be eligible to claim them. the £20 temporary increase in universal credit will continue until september and the national living wage will go up. to help the housing market in england, the suspension of stamp duty, effectively a tax on moving home, has been extended. planned fuel duty increase has once again been cancelled, a key demand of some conservative mps. all duties on alcohol have been frozen. between last year's budget and this they have been a dozen economic updates, and more than £300 million have been spent in government support. the chancellor promised to level with people about how this vast expenditure would be paid for further down the line. a couple of former conservative chancellors have told this chancellor he needs to signal a willingness to put taxes up. some of his colleagues have been queasy about this, so any increases have been delayed but not dismissed. in 2023, the rate of corporation tax

paid on— in 2023, the rate of corporation tax paid on company profits will increase _ paid on company profits will increase to 25%.— paid on company profits will increase to 25%. . �* , , ., " , increase to 25%. that's up from 1996. he ara ued increase to 2596. that's up from 1996. he argued that _ increase to 2596. that's up from 1996. he argued that the _ increase to 2596. that's up from 1996. he argued that the new— increase to 2596. that's up from 1996. he argued that the new rate - increase to 2596. that's up from 1996. he argued that the new rate would i he argued that the new rate would still be lower than similar taxes and other major economies and he said only the most profitable companies would pay it in full. because corporation tax is only charged — because corporation tax is only charged on company profits, any struggling business will, by definition, be unaffected. second, i'm protecting small businesses with profits— i'm protecting small businesses with profits of— i'm protecting small businesses with profits of £50,000 or less, by creating — profits of £50,000 or less, by creating a _ profits of £50,000 or less, by creating a small profits rate, maintained that the current rate of i9%. maintained that the current rate of 1996. ., ,., , ., maintained that the current rate of 1996. ., , ., , 1996. he also pledged that companies which invest would _ 1996. he also pledged that companies which invest would be _ 1996. he also pledged that companies which invest would be able _ 1996. he also pledged that companies which invest would be able to - 1996. he also pledged that companies which invest would be able to cut - which invest would be able to cut their bills, but labour accused him of settling for short—term fixes and ignoring public services. of settling for short-term fixes and ignoring public services.— ignoring public services. rather than the big — ignoring public services. rather than the big transformative - ignoring public services. rather. than the big transformative budget we needed, this budget simply papers over the cracks. if this had been a budget for the long term, it would have had a plan, a plan to protect

our nhs, a plan to fix social care, but i can tell you this, a labour budget would have had the nhs and care homes front and centre. but this budget is almost silent on those questions. are all getting used to some of the mind—boggling sums the main political debate here at westminster is how ultimately you're going to pay for some of that further down the line. the debate has been going on inside, as well as between the political parties, so we had about the future of corporation tax increase. there is also a tax increase perhaps a bit less transparent. not next year but the year after anther five years subsequently, the amount of money that you can earn before paying tax will be frozen. usually it is updated in line with inflation, so in effect that becomes a tax increase. the treasury say it is not a stealth tax because we are

announcing it, but it allows the conservatives to stick to their campaign pledge not to change tax rates themselves. labour said now was not the time for any tax increases. they said the focus must be on the recovery. with the chancellor delaying his tax increases for a couple of years i think he is hoping to avoid criticism. but one other thing to look out for, there is also around £4 billion of spending cuts being priced in as well, and we may see the need for that to increase in future years. very interesting, thanks very much, iain watson, our political correspondent at westminster. some further political reaction now. let's find out what the liberal democrats are making of today's budget. with me now is edinburgh west mp christine jardine — she is the treasury spokesperson for the liberal democrats. good afternoon. your thoughts broadly about the future direction of the economy? l’m broadly about the future direction of the economy? i'm disappointed, because we — of the economy? i'm disappointed, because we could _ of the economy? i'm disappointed, because we could have _ of the economy? i'm disappointed, because we could have seen - of the economy? i'm disappointed, because we could have seen morel of the economy? i'm disappointed, i because we could have seen more and we should have seen more for small

businesses, and for the 3 million people who have been excluded from any support at all on this. when i say small businesses, i mean all small businesses. the retailers are now high street, the small shops, the hairdressers, the freelancers in arts and entertainment, small cafes. all of those people who have had to close gift shops, who have had to close gift shops, who have had to close because they were being responsible and following the rules that the government set down, now, i think, deserve much more than the government has offered them today. a £5 billion scheme isn't going to touch the sides of the problem. what we were proposing was a £50 billion scheme over six months, and i think if i were a small business today, i had invested years and my savings and my family's future, i would be very disappointed in the chancellor. the chancellor would say there is continued furlough, there are more people, more self—employed people, he would say, being helped from today's announcements, but is your point that there are still people

slipping through the nets? we could also be talking about, it has been put to the chancellor several times in the government, that we will be looking at a universal several basic income. we could have had a universal basic income a long time ago. the main point that september, september is not that far away. businesses need to plan long—term. a lot of these measures that he has spoken about today, extending furlough scheme, we think that should apply to the end of the year. the business rates relief should be to the end of the financial year. there are so many things which he could have done but he just hasn't gone far enough. we are seen too often in this that the

chancellor comes back and says i'm going to do this now, i'm going to extend this now. he needs to take a long—term strategic extended approach. if we did that now, we could be looking at a sort of windfall tax on those major multinationals who have made billions of profits in this, to help support the small businesses, which the conservative prime minister is how cold the backbone —— have called the backbone of the economy. thank ou ve the backbone of the economy. thank you very much _ the backbone of the economy. thank you very much from _ the backbone of the economy. thank you very much from the _ the backbone of the economy. thank you very much from the liberal - you very much from the liberal democrats. apologies and that is because we have to return to holyrood. the first minister is resuming her evidence session, we believe, untilspm. let's to resuming her evidence session, we believe, until 5pm. let's to that. l believe, until5pm. let's to that. i do. i'm not going to name a colleague, who had been a colleague of his~~~ _ colleague, who had been a colleague of his~~~ a— colleague, who had been a colleague of his... a civil servant, i should say _ of his... a civil servant, i should say that —

of his... a civil servant, i should say that is _ of his... a civil servant, i should say. that is what heidi had been told that— say. that is what heidi had been told that meant he as well as wanting — told that meant he as well as wanting to see me, might also be the reason _ wanting to see me, might also be the reason for— wanting to see me, might also be the reason for being in the building. so, reason for being in the building. so. two — reason for being in the building. so, two meetings that day at least that you _ so, two meetings that day at least that you knew _ so, two meetings that day at least that you knew l— so, two meetings that day at least that you knew— that you knew. i have no idea. i 'ust that you knew. i have no idea. i just know _ that you knew. i have no idea. i just know that _ that you knew. i have no idea. i just know that he _ that you knew. i have no idea. i just know that he was _ that you knew. i have no idea. i just know that he was there - that you knew. i have no idea. i just know that he was there at l that you knew. i have no idea. i. just know that he was there at the birthday— just know that he was there at the birthday celebration for the colleague. birthday celebration for the colleague-— birthday celebration for the colleauue. , , birthday celebration for the colleauue. . , , ., ., colleague. this is your vision of the ministerial— colleague. this is your vision of the ministerial code _ colleague. this is your vision of the ministerial code 2018. - colleague. this is your vision of the ministerial code 2018. i- colleague. this is your vision of i the ministerial code 2018. i must confess. — the ministerial code 2018. i must confess. i— the ministerial code 2018. i must confess. i had _ the ministerial code 2018. i must confess, i had not _ the ministerial code 2018. i must confess, i had not read _ the ministerial code 2018. i must confess, i had not read this- the ministerial code 2018. i must confess, i had not read this code| the ministerial code 2018. i must. confess, i had not read this code in such— confess, i had not read this code in such detail— confess, i had not read this code in such detail until— confess, i had not read this code in such detail until recently. - confess, i had not read this code in such detail until recently. given - such detail until recently. given the significance _ such detail until recently. given the significance that _ such detail until recently. given the significance that is - such detail until recently. given the significance that is attached such detail until recently. given i the significance that is attached to the significance that is attached to the independent _ the significance that is attached to the independent panel. _ the significance that is attached to the independent panel. the - the significance that is attached to the independent panel. the panel| the significance that is attached to i the independent panel. the panel was established _ the independent panel. the panel was established to — the independent panel. the panel was established to investigate _ the independent panel. the panel was established to investigate breaches i established to investigate breaches in the _ established to investigate breaches in the ministerial— established to investigate breaches in the ministerial code, _ established to investigate breaches in the ministerial code, it _ established to investigate breaches in the ministerial code, it is - established to investigate breaches in the ministerial code, it is a i in the ministerial code, it is a general— in the ministerial code, it is a general observation - in the ministerial code, it is a general observation of- in the ministerial code, it is a general observation of the i general observation of the ministerial _ general observation of the ministerial code _ general observation of the ministerial code that i general observation of the ministerial code that 1.7, i general observation of the i ministerial code that 1.7, this is the ministerial code that i.7, this is the only— ministerial code that 1.7, this is the only reference _ ministerial code that 1.7, this is the only reference to _ ministerial code that 1.7, this is the only reference to referring i the only reference to referring matters — the only reference to referring matters to _ the only reference to referring matters to independent - the only reference to referring i matters to independent advisers. it isjust— matters to independent advisers. it isiust four— matters to independent advisers. it isjust four lines _ matters to independent advisers. it

isjust four lines long. _ matters to independent advisers. it is just four lines long. i'm - matters to independent advisers. it is just four lines long. i'm just i isjust four lines long. i'm just wondering _ isjust four lines long. i'm just wondering whether— isjust four lines long. i'm just wondering whether that - isjust four lines long. i'm just wondering whether that is i wondering whether that is appropriate _ wondering whether that is appropriate because, i wondering whether that is appropriate because, you| wondering whether that is i appropriate because, you might wondering whether that is _ appropriate because, you might want to reflect _ appropriate because, you might want to reflect on — appropriate because, you might want to reflect on this, _ appropriate because, you might want to reflect on this, it _ appropriate because, you might want to reflect on this, it is _ appropriate because, you might want to reflect on this, it is not _ to reflect on this, it is not directly— to reflect on this, it is not directly related _ to reflect on this, it is not directly related to - to reflect on this, it is not directly related to this i to reflect on this, it is not i directly related to this enquiry. well— directly related to this enquiry. well actually _ directly related to this enquiry. well actually it— directly related to this enquiry. well actually it is _ directly related to this enquiry. well actually it is related - directly related to this enquiry. i well actually it is related directly to this _ well actually it is related directly to this enguiry _ well actually it is related directly to this enquiry but _ well actually it is related directly to this enquiry but when - well actually it is related directly to this enquiry but when you i to this enquiry but when you referred _ to this enquiry but when you referred yourself— to this enquiry but when you referred yourself to - to this enquiry but when you referred yourself to the i to this enquiry but when you - referred yourself to the independent adviser, _ referred yourself to the independent adviser, it _ referred yourself to the independent adviser, it was — referred yourself to the independent adviser, it was set _ referred yourself to the independent adviser, it was set out _ referred yourself to the independent adviser, it was set out in _ referred yourself to the independent adviser, it was set out in the - adviser, it was set out in the question— adviser, it was set out in the question of— adviser, it was set out in the question of august - adviser, it was set out in the question of august 2020 - adviser, it was set out in the question of august 2020 byl adviser, it was set out in the - question of august 2020 by claire adamson— question of august 2020 by claire adamson that, _ question of august 2020 by claire adamson that, at _ question of august 2020 by claire adamson that, at which _ question of august 2020 by claire adamson that, at which john - question of august 2020 by claire - adamson that, at which john swinney the deputy— adamson that, at which john swinney the deputy first— adamson that, at which john swinney the deputy first minister— adamson that, at which john swinney the deputy first minister responded i the deputy first minister responded to. the deputy first minister responded t0~ this_ the deputy first minister responded t0~ this was— the deputy first minister responded t0~ this was on_ the deputy first minister responded to. this was on the _ the deputy first minister responded to. this was on the grounds - the deputy first minister responded to. this was on the grounds of- the deputy first minister responded to. this was on the grounds of four| to. this was on the grounds of four to. this was on the grounds of four to two— to. this was on the grounds of four to two and — to. this was on the grounds of four to two and 435 _ to. this was on the grounds of four to two and 433. later _ to. this was on the grounds of four to two and 433. later on, - to. this was on the grounds of fouri to two and 433. later on, following the letter _ to two and 433. later on, following the letter questioning _ to two and 433. later on, following the letter questioning the - to two and 433. later on, following the letter questioning the fact - to two and 433. later on, following the letter questioning the fact that| the letter questioning the fact that whether— the letter questioning the fact that whether mr— the letter questioning the fact that whether mr hamilton— the letter questioning the fact that whether mr hamilton should - the letter questioning the fact that whether mr hamilton should also i the letter questioning the fact that. whether mr hamilton should also look atone _ whether mr hamilton should also look atone see, _ whether mr hamilton should also look atone see, i— whether mr hamilton should also look at one see, i understand _ whether mr hamilton should also look at one see, i understand that - whether mr hamilton should also look at one see, i understand that he - whether mr hamilton should also look at one see, i understand that he was. at one see, i understand that he was looking _ at one see, i understand that he was looking at— at one see, i understand that he was looking at it — at one see, i understand that he was looking at it alt _ at one see, i understand that he was looking at it all. i'm _ at one see, i understand that he was looking at it all. i'm just— looking at it all. i'm just wondering _ looking at it all. i'm just wondering about- looking at it all. i'm just wondering about the - looking at it all. i'm just- wondering about the propriety of having _ wondering about the propriety of having a — wondering about the propriety of having a process, _ wondering about the propriety of having a process, where - wondering about the propriety of. having a process, where someone prefers— having a process, where someone prefers themselves _ having a process, where someone prefers themselves to _ having a process, where someone prefers themselves to an - having a process, where someone - prefers themselves to an independent adviser— prefers themselves to an independent adviser on— prefers themselves to an independent adviser on one — prefers themselves to an independent adviser on one ground. _ prefers themselves to an independent adviser on one ground. should - prefers themselves to an independent adviser on one ground. should it - prefers themselves to an independent adviser on one ground. should it not i adviser on one ground. should it not 'ust adviser on one ground. should it not just be _ adviser on one ground. should it not just be the _ adviser on one ground. should it not just be the case _ adviser on one ground. should it not just be the case that, _ adviser on one ground. should it not just be the case that, as—

adviser on one ground. should it not just be the case that, as a _ adviser on one ground. should it not just be the case that, as a matter. just be the case that, as a matter of course, — just be the case that, as a matter of course, as— just be the case that, as a matter of course, as a— just be the case that, as a matter of course, as a matter _ just be the case that, as a matter of course, as a matter of - just be the case that, as a matter of course, as a matter of routinei of course, as a matter of routine policy, _ of course, as a matter of routine policy, in — of course, as a matter of routine policy. in fact, _ of course, as a matter of routine policy. in fact, in— of course, as a matter of routine policy, in fact, in the _ of course, as a matter of routine policy, in fact, in the ministerial| policy, in fact, in the ministerial code, _ policy, in fact, in the ministerial code, it — policy, in fact, in the ministerial code, it should _ policy, in fact, in the ministerial code, it should be _ policy, in fact, in the ministerial code, it should be a _ policy, in fact, in the ministerial code, it should be a reference . policy, in fact, in the ministerial| code, it should be a reference to the alleged — code, it should be a reference to the alleged breach _ code, it should be a reference to the alleged breach of— code, it should be a reference to the alleged breach of the - code, it should be a reference to the alleged breach of the code . code, it should be a reference to l the alleged breach of the code and it should _ the alleged breach of the code and it should be — the alleged breach of the code and it should be up _ the alleged breach of the code and it should be up to— the alleged breach of the code and it should be up to the _ the alleged breach of the code and it should be up to the advisor - the alleged breach of the code and it should be up to the advisor to i it should be up to the advisor to decide, — it should be up to the advisor to decide, which, _ it should be up to the advisor to decide, which, if— it should be up to the advisor to decide, which, if any, _ it should be up to the advisor to decide, which, ifany, grounds. it should be up to the advisor to - decide, which, if any, grounds have been _ decide, which, if any, grounds have been reached~ — decide, which, if any, grounds have been reached. yes, _ decide, which, if any, grounds have been reached. yes, i— decide, which, if any, grounds have been reached. yes, i think- decide, which, if any, grounds have been reached. yes, i think it- decide, which, if any, grounds have been reached. yes, i think it is- been reached. yes, i think it is reasonable _ been reached. yes, i think it is reasonable. what— been reached. yes, i think it is reasonable. what i— been reached. yes, i think it is reasonable. what i don't- been reached. yes, i think it is reasonable. what i don't recall been reached. yes, i think it is. reasonable. what i don't recall is whetherm — reasonable. what i don't recall is whether- - -_ whether... i'm not aware of any deliberate _ whether... i'm not aware of any deliberate change. _ whether... i'm not aware of any deliberate change. but, - whether... i'm not aware of any deliberate change. but, yes, i, | deliberate change. but, yes, i, obviously— deliberate change. but, yes, i, obviously. _ deliberate change. but, yes, i, obviously, can't speak on behalf of mr hamilton but my understanding is that if— mr hamilton but my understanding is that if he _ mr hamilton but my understanding is that if he sees anything relevant with regards to the ministerial code, — with regards to the ministerial code, you _ with regards to the ministerial code, you look at that. just to remind — code, you look at that. just to remind members that the reason originattv— remind members that the reason originally of 42 and 433, the week

that the _ originally of 42 and 433, the week that the original review was conceded and i made the statement and set _ conceded and i made the statement and set out the contacts that i had had with— and set out the contacts that i had had with alex, the first questions were _ had with alex, the first questions were specifically on my failure to notify— were specifically on my failure to notify the — were specifically on my failure to notify the meeting. that was the request — notify the meeting. that was the request. that is the genesis of the referral— request. that is the genesis of the referral being on these particular points _ referral being on these particular points i— referral being on these particular points. i have no interest in constraining this review. i want to be able _ constraining this review. i want to be able to— constraining this review. i want to be able to set out the actions that i be able to set out the actions that i have _ be able to set out the actions that i have taken and get a view on my contact _ i have taken and get a view on my contact in — i have taken and get a view on my contact in terms of the ministerial code~ _ contact in terms of the ministerial code i_ contact in terms of the ministerial code. i want people to be able to come _ code. i want people to be able to come back— code. i want people to be able to come back afterwards and say, no, you didn't — come back afterwards and say, no, you didn't look at the right thing. my view— you didn't look at the right thing. my view is — you didn't look at the right thing. my view is that mr hamilton should be completely unconstrained in anything — be completely unconstrained in anything he wants to look at all sav~ _ anything he wants to look at all sa . r , ., , , ., anything he wants to look at all sa. , say. and 'ust finally, you say, i will lead say. andjust finally, you say, i will lead by _ say. andjust finally, you say, i will lead by example _ say. andjust finally, you say, i will lead by example in - say. andjust finally, you say, i i will lead by example in following the letter — will lead by example in following

the letter and _ will lead by example in following the letter and spirit _ will lead by example in following the letter and spirit of— will lead by example in following the letter and spirit of this- will lead by example in following the letter and spirit of this code i the letter and spirit of this code and expect— the letter and spirit of this code and expect that _ the letter and spirit of this code and expect that ministers - the letter and spirit of this code and expect that ministers and l the letter and spirit of this code i and expect that ministers and civil servants— and expect that ministers and civil servants will — and expect that ministers and civil servants will do— and expect that ministers and civil servants will do likewise. - and expect that ministers and civil servants will do likewise. [- and expect that ministers and civil servants will do likewise. [refill- and expect that ministers and civil servants will do likewise.- servants will do likewise. i will in everything _ servants will do likewise. i will in everything that — servants will do likewise. i will in everything that i _ servants will do likewise. i will in everything that i do _ servants will do likewise. i will in everything that i do is _ servants will do likewise. i will in everything that i do is first - everything that i do is first minister, seek to do it appropriately, properly and within hi-h appropriately, properly and within high standards. it is for people to judge _ high standards. it is for people to judge that. i'm trying to explain. i'm judge that. i'm trying to explain. i'm not— judge that. i'm trying to explain. i'm not trying to dodge that. ijust think— i'm not trying to dodge that. ijust think it _ i'm not trying to dodge that. ijust think it is — i'm not trying to dodge that. ijust think it is not unreasonable for me to say. _ think it is not unreasonable for me to say. tet — think it is not unreasonable for me to say, let mr hamilton do his work and report— to say, let mr hamilton do his work and report and then i will respond to whatever the report says... i believe — to whatever the report says... i believe that. i try to do my best to do that— believe that. i try to do my best to do that everyday in this job. it's for others — do that everyday in this job. it's for others tojudge do that everyday in this job. it's for others to judge whether i fail, succeed _ for others to judge whether i fail, succeed awful somewhere in between. i succeed awful somewhere in between. i take _ succeed awful somewhere in between. i take very— succeed awful somewhere in between. i take very seriously the obligations and the privileges and

everything that comes with this job. for me. _ everything that comes with this job. for me. the — everything that comes with this job. for me, the office of first minister and all— for me, the office of first minister and all that— for me, the office of first minister and all that comes with that is bigger— and all that comes with that is bigger and more important than any individual— bigger and more important than any individual incumbent of it. right back— individual incumbent of it. right back i_ individual incumbent of it. right back i have jackie baillie and then margaret— back i have jackie baillie and then margaret mitchell and please bear in mind the _ margaret mitchell and please bear in mind the time that we have left. | mind the time that we have left. i will mind the time that we have left. i will certainly try. can i start with the precursor— will certainly try. can i start with the precursor meetings - will certainly try. can i start with the precursor meetings of- will certainly try. can i start with the precursor meetings of the i will certainly try. can i start with l the precursor meetings of the 29th of march, — the precursor meetings of the 29th of march, where _ the precursor meetings of the 29th of march, where jeff— the precursor meetings of the 29th of march, where jeff —— _ the precursor meetings of the 29th of march, where jeff —— geoff - of march, where jeff —— geoff aberdein— of march, where jeff —— geoff aberdein was— of march, where jeff —— geoff aberdein was told _ of march, where jeff —— geoff aberdein was told about - of march, where jeff —— geoff aberdein was told about the i aberdein was told about the complaints _ aberdein was told about the complaints. we _ aberdein was told about the complaints. we were - aberdein was told about the complaints. we were aware| aberdein was told about the l complaints. we were aware of aberdein was told about the - complaints. we were aware of this meeting _ complaints. we were aware of this meeting is? — complaints. we were aware of this meeting is? i— complaints. we were aware of this meeting is?— complaints. we were aware of this meeting is? i have answered these cuestions meeting is? i have answered these questions already _ meeting is? i have answered these questions already today _ meeting is? i have answered these questions already today to - meeting is? i have answered these questions already today to the - meeting is? i have answered these | questions already today to the best of my— questions already today to the best of my ability. i don't think i can add anything from the legal constraints that i'm under. there are no legal— constraints that i'm under. there are no legal constraints - constraints that i'm under. there are no legal constraints you - constraints that i'm under. there i are no legal constraints you telling me that _ are no legal constraints you telling me that you — are no legal constraints you telling me that you aware _ are no legal constraints you telling me that you aware those _ are no legal constraints you telling l me that you aware those meetings. you might— me that you aware those meetings. you might know. _ me that you aware those meetings. you might know, to— me that you aware those meetings. you might know, to the _ me that you aware those meetings. you might know, to the best - me that you aware those meetings. you might know, to the best of- me that you aware those meetings. you might know, to the best of my| you might know, to the best of my knowledge — you might know, to the best of my knowledge i— you might know, to the best of my

knowledge i wasn't. _ you might know, to the best of my knowledge i wasn't. so, _ you might know, to the best of my knowledge i wasn't. so, a - you might know, to the best of my knowledge i wasn't. so, a senior. knowledge i wasn't. so, a senior member— knowledge i wasn't. so, a senior member of— knowledge i wasn't. so, a senior member of your— knowledge i wasn't. so, a senior member of yourteam... - knowledge i wasn't. so, a senior member of yourteam... [- knowledge i wasn't. so, a senior member of your team. . .- knowledge i wasn't. so, a senior member of your team. .. i don't know what every — member of your team. .. i don't know what every member— member of your team. .. i don't know what every member of— member of your team. .. i don't know what every member of my _ member of your team. .. i don't know what every member of my team - member of your team. .. i don't know what every member of my team is i what every member of my team is doing _ what every member of my team is doing every minute of the day. gk doing every minute of the day. ok but a doing every minute of the day. but a senior doing every minute of the day. ok but a senior member of your team talking _ but a senior member of your team talking about _ but a senior member of your team talking about complaints - but a senior member of your team talking about complaints against l but a senior member of your team l talking about complaints against the former— talking about complaints against the former first — talking about complaints against the former first minister— talking about complaints against the former first minister would - talking about complaints against the former first minister would be - talking about complaints against the former first minister would be quite| former first minister would be quite significant. — former first minister would be quite significant. i— former first minister would be quite significant, i think— former first minister would be quite significant, i think you _ former first minister would be quite significant, i think you would - significant, i think you would agree? — significant, i think you would agree? i— significant, i think you would auree? . ., , agree? i am not accepting the remise agree? i am not accepting the premise of— agree? i am not accepting the premise of your _ agree? i am not accepting the premise of your question - agree? i am not accepting the premise of your question that | agree? i am not accepting the - premise of your question that what you are _ premise of your question that what you are claiming that happens in that particular meeting actually happened. that is where i'm going to start repeating myself and we are going _ start repeating myself and we are going to _ start repeating myself and we are going to go over the same ground. i'm going to go over the same ground. i'm not— going to go over the same ground. i'm not talking about complainers or the names— i'm not talking about complainers or the names of— i'm not talking about complainers or the names of complainers, - i'm not talking about complainers or the names of complainers, i'm - the names of complainers, i'm talking — the names of complainers, i'm talking about _ the names of complainers, i'm talking about the _ the names of complainers, i'm talking about the fact - the names of complainers, i'm talking about the fact of- talking about the fact of complaints. _ talking about the fact of complaints. [— talking about the fact of complaints.— talking about the fact of complaints. talking about the fact of comlaints. . , ., . , complaints. i was not at these meetings- _ complaints. i was not at these meetings. the _ complaints. i was not at these meetings. the people - complaints. i was not at these meetings. the people who - complaints. i was not at these i meetings. the people who were complaints. i was not at these - meetings. the people who were at these _ meetings. the people who were at these meetings have not been heard of and _ these meetings have not been heard of and therefore i'm not going to comment— of and therefore i'm not going to comment on meetings that i was not party to— comment on meetings that i was not party to beyond what i've said atreadv — party to beyond what i've said atreadv |_ party to beyond what i've said alread . , . , ., already. i understand you went there. i understand _ already. i understand you went there. i understand you - already. i understand you went there. i understand you and i already. i understand you went i there. i understand you and party already. i understand you went - there. i understand you and party to those _ there. i understand you and party to those meetings _ there. i understand you and party to those meetings. i'm _

there. i understand you and party to those meetings. i'm not— there. i understand you and party to those meetings. i'm not asking - there. i understand you and party to. those meetings. i'm not asking about the comptainer~ — those meetings. i'm not asking about the complainer. what _ those meetings. i'm not asking about the complainer. what i'm _ those meetings. i'm not asking about the complainer. what i'm asking - the complainer. what i'm asking about— the complainer. what i'm asking about is, — the complainer. what i'm asking about is, did _ the complainer. what i'm asking about is, did you _ the complainer. what i'm asking about is, did you know- the complainer. what i'm asking about is, did you know that- the complainer. what i'm askingi about is, did you know that there were _ about is, did you know that there were meetings— about is, did you know that there were meetings to _ about is, did you know that there were meetings to discuss - about is, did you know that there were meetings to discuss the - about is, did you know that there| were meetings to discuss the fact that there — were meetings to discuss the fact that there were _ were meetings to discuss the fact that there were complaints? - were meetings to discuss the fact that there were complaints? no. i were meetings to discuss the fact - that there were complaints? no. you didn't _ that there were complaints? no. you didn't 0k~ _ that there were complaints? no. you didn't 0k the — that there were complaints? no. you didn't. 0k. the 29th— that there were complaints? no. you didn't. 0k. the 29th of— that there were complaints? no. you didn't. 0k. the 29th of march - didn't. 0k. the 29th of march meeting — didn't. 0k. the 29th of march meeting was— didn't. 0k. the 29th of march meeting was prearranged. . didn't. 0k. the 29th of march meeting was prearranged. i. didn't. 0k. the 29th of march i meeting was prearranged. i have checked — meeting was prearranged. i have checked it — meeting was prearranged. i have checked it it _ meeting was prearranged. i have checked it. it was _ meeting was prearranged. i have checked it. it wasjointly- meeting was prearranged. i havei checked it. it was jointly arranged by a senior— checked it. it was jointly arranged by a senior member— checked it. it was jointly arranged by a senior member of _ checked it. it was jointly arranged by a senior member of your- checked it. it was jointly arranged by a senior member of your team | by a senior member of your team along _ by a senior member of your team along with — by a senior member of your team along with mr— by a senior member of your team along with mr geoff _ by a senior member of your team along with mr geoff aberdein. . by a senior member of your team along with mr geoff aberdein. iti by a senior member of your team i along with mr geoff aberdein. it was according _ along with mr geoff aberdein. it was according to — along with mr geoff aberdein. it was according to the _ along with mr geoff aberdein. it was according to the evidence _ along with mr geoff aberdein. it was according to the evidence that - along with mr geoff aberdein. it was according to the evidence that we i according to the evidence that we have _ according to the evidence that we have received _ according to the evidence that we have received to _ according to the evidence that we have received to discuss - according to the evidence that we have received to discuss the i have received to discuss the complaints _ have received to discuss the complaints. when _ have received to discuss the complaints. when you i have received to discuss the | complaints. when you arrive have received to discuss the i complaints. when you arrive in advance? — complaints. when you arrive in advance? i— complaints. when you arrive in advance? . . complaints. when you arrive in advance?— complaints. when you arrive in advance? . . ., , advance? i was aware that geoff aberdein wanted _ advance? i was aware that geoff aberdein wanted to _ advance? i was aware that geoff aberdein wanted to see - advance? i was aware that geoff aberdein wanted to see me i advance? i was aware that geoff aberdein wanted to see me and | advance? i was aware that geoff i aberdein wanted to see me and that he might— aberdein wanted to see me and that he might be in parliament the next day and _ he might be in parliament the next day and that i was given a broad understanding of what it was about. an indication was given by a senior member— an indication was given by a senior member of— an indication was given by a senior member of your— an indication was given by a senior member of yourteam? _ an indication was given by a senior member of your team? yes. i an indication was given by a senior member of your team?— an indication was given by a senior member of your team? yes. in terms of secific member of your team? yes. in terms of specific complaints, _ member of your team? yes. in terms of specific complaints, that _ member of your team? yes. in terms of specific complaints, that was i member of your team? yes. in terms of specific complaints, that was not l of specific complaints, that was not what i _ of specific complaints, that was not what i was — of specific complaints, that was not what i was aware of at that point. i

had an— what i was aware of at that point. i had an awareness that he wanted to see me _ had an awareness that he wanted to see me and — had an awareness that he wanted to see me and it was about concerns about— see me and it was about concerns about alex — see me and it was about concerns about alex salmond. i have gone through— about alex salmond. i have gone through what my recollection is about— through what my recollection is about what geoff aberdein told me and i've _ about what geoff aberdein told me and i've also said about what happened on the 2nd of april in terms _ happened on the 2nd of april in terms of— happened on the 2nd of april in terms of what alex showed me in the letter _ terms of what alex showed me in the letter |_ terms of what alex showed me in the letter. . . ., , ., ,, ., terms of what alex showed me in the letter. . . ., , ., ~' ., . letter. i am curious to know that accordin: letter. i am curious to know that according to _ letter. i am curious to know that according to geoff— letter. i am curious to know that according to geoff aberdein, i letter. i am curious to know that according to geoff aberdein, he | letter. i am curious to know that i according to geoff aberdein, he was coming _ according to geoff aberdein, he was coming on _ according to geoff aberdein, he was coming on the — according to geoff aberdein, he was coming on the 29th _ according to geoff aberdein, he was coming on the 29th of— according to geoff aberdein, he was coming on the 29th of march - according to geoff aberdein, he was coming on the 29th of march to i coming on the 29th of march to discuss — coming on the 29th of march to discuss complaints. _ coming on the 29th of march to discuss complaints. you're i coming on the 29th of march to i discuss complaints. you're telling me that _ discuss complaints. you're telling me that you — discuss complaints. you're telling me that you didn't _ discuss complaints. you're telling me that you didn't know- discuss complaints. you're telling me that you didn't know that i discuss complaints. you're telling me that you didn't know that that| me that you didn't know that that was the _ me that you didn't know that that was the case _ me that you didn't know that that was the case. [it— me that you didn't know that that was the case-— me that you didn't know that that was the case. it depends what you mean. if was the case. it depends what you mean- if you _ was the case. it depends what you mean. if you mean _ was the case. it depends what you mean. if you mean by— was the case. it depends what you mean. if you mean by complaintsl was the case. it depends what you i mean. if you mean by complaints as in specific— mean. if you mean by complaints as in specific complaints, i knew that he was _ in specific complaints, i knew that he was coming to see me about a general— he was coming to see me about a general concern about alex. 0n the 29th of— general concern about alex. 0n the 29th of march, he shared with me that there — 29th of march, he shared with me that there was an issue around harassment concerns and that he wanted _ harassment concerns and that he wanted to— harassment concerns and that he wanted to see me to see alex. i keep saying _ wanted to see me to see alex. i keep saying this _ wanted to see me to see alex. i keep saying this not because i am trying to be _ saying this not because i am trying to be difficult here. i'm not trying to be difficult here. i'm not trying to be _ to be difficult here. i'm not trying to be difficult here. i'm not trying to be difficult but i have not seen

geoff— to be difficult but i have not seen geoff aberdein's account. i have been _ geoff aberdein's account. i have been asked to comment on something that i been asked to comment on something that i have _ been asked to comment on something that i have not directly seen. but my understanding is that geoff aberdein's_ my understanding is that geoff aberdein's accounts— my understanding is that geoff aberdein's accounts was i my understanding is that geoff aberdein's accounts was given| my understanding is that geoff. aberdein's accounts was given in court _ aberdein's accounts was given in court and — aberdein's accounts was given in court and dry _ aberdein's accounts was given in court and dry i— aberdein's accounts was given in court and dry-— court and dry. i wasn't in court. i have seen _ court and dry. i wasn't in court. i have seen something _ court and dry. i wasn't in court. i have seen something reported . court and dry. i wasn't in court. i j have seen something reported in court and dry. i wasn't in court. i i have seen something reported in the media _ have seen something reported in the media that _ have seen something reported in the media that i believe to be an account— media that i believe to be an account of geoff aberdein but i don't _ account of geoff aberdein but i don't know that for sure and i have also heard — don't know that for sure and i have also heard alex salmond's account of the 29th _ also heard alex salmond's account of the 29th of march. i don't know this committee — the 29th of march. i don't know this committee have had from geoff aberdein. i have not seen it. but liven he aberdein. i have not seen it. but given he gave this information in court _ given he gave this information in court and — given he gave this information in court and knowing _ given he gave this information in court and knowing what - given he gave this information in court and knowing what you i given he gave this information ini court and knowing what you know about _ court and knowing what you know about geoff — court and knowing what you know about geoff aberdein, _ court and knowing what you know about geoff aberdein, one - court and knowing what you know about geoff aberdein, one couldi about geoff aberdein, one could safety— about geoff aberdein, one could safety assume _ about geoff aberdein, one could safely assume it _ about geoff aberdein, one could safely assume it is _ about geoff aberdein, one could safely assume it is true. - about geoff aberdein, one could safely assume it is true. can i about geoff aberdein, one could safely assume it is true.- safely assume it is true. can i interact here. _ safely assume it is true. can i interact here. i— safely assume it is true. can i interact here. i think - safely assume it is true. can i interact here. i think this i safely assume it is true. can i interact here. i think this is i interact here. i think this is starting to become inappropriate because it is referring directly to the court case and i am not convinced it is adding any value to this and we have heard the first minister many times give her view on

what happens on the 29th of march. thank you very much. the difficulty is that— thank you very much. the difficulty is that i'm — thank you very much. the difficulty is that i'm not— thank you very much. the difficulty is that i'm not entirely— thank you very much. the difficulty is that i'm not entirely satisfied i is that i'm not entirely satisfied with the — is that i'm not entirely satisfied with the responses _ is that i'm not entirely satisfied with the responses i— is that i'm not entirely satisfied with the responses i have i is that i'm not entirely satisfied i with the responses i have received. i was _ with the responses i have received. i was not _ with the responses i have received. i was not in — with the responses i have received. i was not in court _ with the responses i have received. i was not in court. i— with the responses i have received. i was not in court. i did _ with the responses i have received. i was not in court. i did not - with the responses i have received. i was not in court. i did not hear. i was not in court. i did not hear the answer_ i was not in court. i did not hear the answer geoff aberdein gay. therefore, you said that geoff aberdein_ therefore, you said that geoff aberdein gave things in court. i said openly in my statements that i have a _ said openly in my statements that i have a different recollection to the level of— have a different recollection to the level of detail about discussion. i said that — level of detail about discussion. i said that openly in my remarks. i have _ said that openly in my remarks. i have said — said that openly in my remarks. i have said that so far in several occasions _ have said that so far in several occasions— have said that so far in several occasions. . . , ., . occasions. can i ask you about the meetin: occasions. can i ask you about the meeting on _ occasions. can i ask you about the meeting on the — occasions. can i ask you about the meeting on the 2nd _ occasions. can i ask you about the meeting on the 2nd of— occasions. can i ask you about the meeting on the 2nd of april, - occasions. can i ask you about the l meeting on the 2nd of april, where, according _ meeting on the 2nd of april, where, according to — meeting on the 2nd of april, where, according to duncan _ meeting on the 2nd of april, where, according to duncan hamilton- meeting on the 2nd of april, where, according to duncan hamilton qc... | according to duncan hamilton qc... at the _

according to duncan hamilton qc... at the meeting _ according to duncan hamilton qc... at the meeting once _ according to duncan hamilton qc... at the meeting once alex _ according to duncan hamilton qc... at the meeting once alex had - according to duncan hamilton qc... . at the meeting once alex had showed me the _ at the meeting once alex had showed me the letter, that was the focus of that meeting. i said in response to somebody— that meeting. i said in response to somebody previously that i had believed — somebody previously that i had believed that that was possibly something that he was going to come and discuss _ something that he was going to come and discuss with me. i think i said openly— and discuss with me. i think i said openly it — and discuss with me. i think i said openly it was very clear to me very quickly— openly it was very clear to me very quickly in — openly it was very clear to me very quickly in that discussion that that was hot _ quickly in that discussion that that was not actually what he was going to suggest. there wasn't a discussion about him considering resigning — discussion about him considering resigning will stop that was one of the things— resigning will stop that was one of the things i thought in advance that could _ the things i thought in advance that could be _ the things i thought in advance that could be a — the things i thought in advance that could be a possibility. in the things i thought in advance that could be a possibility.— could be a possibility. in advance ofthe could be a possibility. in advance of the committee _ could be a possibility. in advance of the committee you _ could be a possibility. in advance of the committee you thought. could be a possibility. in advance of the committee you thought he could _ of the committee you thought he could resign _ of the committee you thought he could resign for— of the committee you thought he could resign for what _ of the committee you thought he could resign for what reason? . of the committee you thought he i could resign for what reason? this would be part _ could resign for what reason? would be part of, it... he could resign for what reason? tiiiiii would be part of, it... he was accused — would be part of, it... he was accused of— would be part of, it... he was accused of something seriously and he may— accused of something seriously and he may be — accused of something seriously and he may be thinking of resigning from the snp _ he may be thinking of resigning from the snp as— he may be thinking of resigning from the snp as he handled space. what i took from _ the snp as he handled space. what i took from that would be to try and protect _ took from that would be to try and protect the party from the

implications of it. that is what my assumption— implications of it. that is what my assumption was. to be clear though, that was— assumption was. to be clear though, that was hot— assumption was. to be clear though, that was not as it turned out what he wanted — that was not as it turned out what he wanted to talk to me about. you had to have — he wanted to talk to me about. you had to have made that assumption in advance _ had to have made that assumption in advance if— had to have made that assumption in advance if you — had to have made that assumption in advance if you thought _ had to have made that assumption in advance if you thought that _ had to have made that assumption in advance if you thought that he - had to have made that assumption in advance if you thought that he was i advance if you thought that he was going _ advance if you thought that he was going to _ advance if you thought that he was going to stand _ advance if you thought that he was going to stand out _ advance if you thought that he was going to stand out from _ advance if you thought that he was going to stand out from the - advance if you thought that he was going to stand out from the party. advance if you thought that he was. going to stand out from the party to clear his _ going to stand out from the party to clear his name? _ going to stand out from the party to clear his name?— going to stand out from the party to clear his name? yes. you _ going to stand out from the party to clear his name? yes. you knew- going to stand out from the party to| clear his name? yes. you knew prior to the 2nd of — clear his name? you knew prior to the 2nd of april clear his name?“ you knew prior to the 2nd of april what _ clear his name?“ you knew prior to the 2nd of april what the - clear his name?“ you knew prior to the 2nd of april what the problem i to the 2nd of april what the problem was? _ to the 2nd of april what the problem was? i— to the 2nd of april what the problem was? ., . , . to the 2nd of april what the problem was? ., ., . , .,, was? i thought there was a problem. actuall , was? i thought there was a problem. actually. that — was? i thought there was a problem. actually, that was _ was? i thought there was a problem. actually, that was one _ was? i thought there was a problem. actually, that was one of _ was? i thought there was a problem. actually, that was one of the - actually, that was one of the reasons _ actually, that was one of the reasons why i was being asked to and i reasons why i was being asked to and i agreed _ reasons why i was being asked to and i agreed to— reasons why i was being asked to and i agreed to meet with him. as it transpired — i agreed to meet with him. as it transpired on the 2nd of april, it was clearly— transpired on the 2nd of april, it was clearly not what was in his mind and, _ was clearly not what was in his mind and, therefore, not what was the subject— and, therefore, not what was the subject of— and, therefore, not what was the subject of discussion. but and, therefore, not what was the subject of discussion.— and, therefore, not what was the subject of discussion. sub'ect of discussion. but you said to subject of discussion. but you said to stuart mcmillan _ subject of discussion. but you said to stuart mcmillan that _ subject of discussion. but you said to stuart mcmillan that you - subject of discussion. but you said l to stuart mcmillan that you thought that he _ to stuart mcmillan that you thought that he would — to stuart mcmillan that you thought that he would stand _ to stuart mcmillan that you thought that he would stand down _ to stuart mcmillan that you thought that he would stand down from - to stuart mcmillan that you thought that he would stand down from the | that he would stand down from the party _ that he would stand down from the party to _ that he would stand down from the party to clear — that he would stand down from the party to clear his _ that he would stand down from the party to clear his name. _ that he would stand down from the party to clear his name. so, - that he would stand down from the party to clear his name. so, you i party to clear his name. so, you needed — party to clear his name. so, you needed to— party to clear his name. so, you needed to have _ party to clear his name. so, you needed to have known - party to clear his name. so, you needed to have known in - party to clear his name. so, you. needed to have known in advance party to clear his name. so, you - needed to have known in advance of the meeting — needed to have known in advance of the meeting on— needed to have known in advance of the meeting on the _ needed to have known in advance of the meeting on the 2nd _

needed to have known in advance of the meeting on the 2nd of— needed to have known in advance of the meeting on the 2nd of april, - the meeting on the 2nd of april, exactly— the meeting on the 2nd of april, exactly what _ the meeting on the 2nd of april, exactly what he _ the meeting on the 2nd of april, exactly what he was _ the meeting on the 2nd of april, exactly what he was trying - the meeting on the 2nd of april, exactly what he was trying to - the meeting on the 2nd of april, . exactly what he was trying to clear his name _ exactly what he was trying to clear his name from? _ exactly what he was trying to clear his name from? i— exactly what he was trying to clear his name from?— exactly what he was trying to clear his name from? i think that leap of louic is his name from? i think that leap of logic is quite _ his name from? i think that leap of logic is quite something. _ his name from? i think that leap of logic is quite something. i - his name from? i think that leap of logic is quite something. i had - his name from? i think that leap of logic is quite something. i had a i logic is quite something. i had a belief— logic is quite something. i had a belief that there was a problem. he was being _ belief that there was a problem. he was being accused of something. i have treeh— was being accused of something. i have been open about that. i had that belief— have been open about that. i had that belief going into the 2nd of april— that belief going into the 2nd of april trut— that belief going into the 2nd of april but he sat me down on the 2nd of april— april but he sat me down on the 2nd of april and — april but he sat me down on the 2nd of april and showed me the letter from _ of april and showed me the letter from the — of april and showed me the letter from the permanent secretary, so i had a _ from the permanent secretary, so i had a general idea that there was something... clear his name is my description — something... clear his name is my description of this right now which may be _ description of this right now which may be part of me kind of looking back on— may be part of me kind of looking back on this. i'm not saying that is what _ back on this. i'm not saying that is what geoff— back on this. i'm not saying that is what geoff aberdein said all that was the — what geoff aberdein said all that was the terminology that was used. but there _ was the terminology that was used. but there was a problem. i knew there _ but there was a problem. i knew there was— but there was a problem. i knew there was a _ but there was a problem. i knew there was a problem on the 29th of march _ there was a problem on the 29th of march i_ there was a problem on the 29th of march. i knew the general nature of it and _ march. i knew the general nature of it and it _ march. i knew the general nature of it and it was — march. i knew the general nature of it and it was suggested, i don't know — it and it was suggested, i don't know... , ., , , ., know... the number of responses to different members _ know. .. the number of responses to different members of— know... the number of responses to

different members of the _ know... the number of responses to j different members of the committee as, what— different members of the committee as, what did — different members of the committee as, what did i— different members of the committee as, what did i think— different members of the committee as, what did i think and _ different members of the committee as, what did i think and do— different members of the committee as, what did i think and do as - different members of the committee as, what did i think and do as the . as, what did i think and do as the first _ as, what did i think and do as the first minister— as, what did i think and do as the first minister after— as, what did i think and do as the first minister after alex - as, what did i think and do as the first minister after alex salmond| first minister after alex salmond asked _ first minister after alex salmond asked me — first minister after alex salmond asked me to— first minister after alex salmond asked me to intervene. - first minister after alex salmond asked me to intervene. that - first minister after alex salmond asked me to intervene. that was| asked me to intervene. that was entirely— asked me to intervene. that was entirely on— asked me to intervene. that was entirely on the _ asked me to intervene. that was entirely on the basis _ asked me to intervene. that was entirely on the basis of- asked me to intervene. that was entirely on the basis of it - asked me to intervene. that was entirely on the basis of it being i entirely on the basis of it being wrong — entirely on the basis of it being wrong is — entirely on the basis of it being wrong is the _ entirely on the basis of it being wrong is the first _ entirely on the basis of it being wrong is the first minister. - entirely on the basis of it being wrong is the first minister. but entirely on the basis of it being - wrong is the first minister. but you told us _ wrong is the first minister. but you told us in _ wrong is the first minister. but you told us in the — wrong is the first minister. but you told us in the parliament— wrong is the first minister. but you told us in the parliament that - wrong is the first minister. but you told us in the parliament that you l told us in the parliament that you were _ told us in the parliament that you were there — told us in the parliament that you were there as _ told us in the parliament that you were there as the _ told us in the parliament that you were there as the party— told us in the parliament that you were there as the party leader. i told us in the parliament that you . were there as the party leader. was itiust _ were there as the party leader. was itiust that— were there as the party leader. was it just that you _ were there as the party leader. was it just that you reverse _ were there as the party leader. was it just that you reverse the - were there as the party leader. was it just that you reverse the first - it just that you reverse the first minister? — itjust that you reverse the first minister? ., , ., minister? people can now... the basis on which _ minister? people can now... the basis on which i _ minister? people can now... the basis on which i agreed - minister? people can now... the basis on which i agreed to - minister? people can now... the basis on which i agreed to the i basis on which i agreed to the meeting — basis on which i agreed to the meeting on the 2nd of april was that firstly. _ meeting on the 2nd of april was that firstly, geoff aberdein seems very concerned — firstly, geoff aberdein seems very concerned about alex's health and well— being. concerned about alex's health and well—being. i was his friend and i wanted _ well—being. i was his friend and i wanted to— well—being. i was his friend and i wanted to see him on that basis. there _ wanted to see him on that basis. there was— wanted to see him on that basis. there was a _ wanted to see him on that basis. there was a serious issue that might affect— there was a serious issue that might affect his _ there was a serious issue that might affect his status in the party. so, i affect his status in the party. so, i agreed — affect his status in the party. so, i agreed to— affect his status in the party. so, i agreed to meet on the party personal— i agreed to meet on the party personal basis. clearly, what he showed — personal basis. clearly, what he showed me was a government... a letter— showed me was a government... a letter related to a government

investigation was not if i had been intervening, i would investigation was not if i had been intervening, iwould have been doing so as— intervening, iwould have been doing so as first— intervening, iwould have been doing so as first minister. so, clearly my decision— so as first minister. so, clearly my decision on— so as first minister. so, clearly my decision on whether or not to intervene _ decision on whether or not to intervene in the way he was asking me to _ intervene in the way he was asking me to would have been as first minister — me to would have been as first minister. �* , ., ., . , minister. but you would have been clear by the _ minister. but you would have been clear by the end _ minister. but you would have been clear by the end of _ minister. but you would have been clear by the end of the _ minister. but you would have been clear by the end of the meeting, . clear by the end of the meeting, surely. — clear by the end of the meeting, surely, that— clear by the end of the meeting, surely, that this _ clear by the end of the meeting, surely, that this was _ clear by the end of the meeting, surely, that this was a _ clear by the end of the meeting, i surely, that this was a government matter— surely, that this was a government matter and — surely, that this was a government matter and not— surely, that this was a government matter and not a _ surely, that this was a government matter and not a party— surely, that this was a government matter and not a party matter. - surely, that this was a government matter and not a party matter. so, why then _ matter and not a party matter. so, why then did — matter and not a party matter. so, why then did you — matter and not a party matter. so, why then did you not _ matter and not a party matter. so, why then did you not report - matter and not a party matter. so, why then did you not report it - matter and not a party matter. so, why then did you not report it to i why then did you not report it to the civil— why then did you not report it to the civil service? _ why then did you not report it to the civil service? i— why then did you not report it to the civil service?— the civil service? i have gone throu~h the civil service? i have gone through this _ the civil service? i have gone through this i _ the civil service? i have gone through this i think— the civil service? i have gone through this i think two - the civil service? i have gone through this i think two or i the civil service? i have gone i through this i think two or three times— through this i think two or three times now _ through this i think two or three times now. well, do it for a fourth. i times now. well, do it for a fourth. i am _ times now. well, do it for a fourth. i am going — times now. well, do it for a fourth. i am going to — times now. well, do it for a fourth. i am going to because it is a really important — i am going to because it is a really important points. if i say it's a party— important points. if i say it's a party meeting i didn't think that i didn't— party meeting i didn't think that i didn't have to report it. the reason i didn't have to report it. the reason i didn't— didn't have to report it. the reason i didn't report it was because i ididn't report it was because i think— ididn't report it was because i think if— i didn't report it was because i think if i— i didn't report it was because i think if i had reported it, iwould have _

think if i had reported it, iwould have compromised the independence and the _ have compromised the independence and the pregnancy and confidentiality of the process. —— privacy— confidentiality of the process. —— privacy and — confidentiality of the process. —— privacy and confidentiality of the process — privacy and confidentiality of the process. people can look at the ministerial code. i doubt very much that anybody involved in writing the ministerial — that anybody involved in writing the ministerial code had these particular subs... circumstances in particular subs. .. circumstances in their— particular subs... circumstances in their minds— particular subs... circumstances in their minds when they wrote it. the code is— their minds when they wrote it. the code is to _ their minds when they wrote it. the code is to guard against undisclosed... i would code is to guard against undisclosed... iwould risk code is to guard against undisclosed... i would risk the independence and confidentiality of the process more if i intervened, if i the process more if i intervened, if i made _ the process more if i intervened, if i made my— the process more if i intervened, if i made my knowledge known then i would _ i made my knowledge known then i would if— i made my knowledge known then i would if i _ i made my knowledge known then i would if i didn't now. that is absolutely a matter that james hamilton has been asked to consider and to— hamilton has been asked to consider and to give _ hamilton has been asked to consider and to give his view on. but

hamilton has been asked to consider and to give his view on.— and to give his view on. but duncan hamilton reported _ and to give his view on. but duncan hamilton reported that _ and to give his view on. but duncan hamilton reported that if— and to give his view on. but duncan hamilton reported that if it - and to give his view on. but duncan hamilton reported that if it comes i hamilton reported that if it comes to it, _ hamilton reported that if it comes to it. i_ hamilton reported that if it comes to it. iwill— hamilton reported that if it comes to it, i will intervene. _ hamilton reported that if it comes to it, i will intervene. those - hamilton reported that if it comes to it, i will intervene. those with. to it, i will intervene. those with the words — to it, i will intervene. those with the words you _ to it, i will intervene. those with the words you used. _ to it, i will intervene. those with the words you used. sitting - the words you used. sitting silentm _ the words you used. sitting silent... there _ the words you used. sitting silent... there are - the words you used. sitting silent... there are no- the words you used. sitting - silent... there are no exemptions. it silent... there are no exemptions. it doesn't — silent... there are no exemptions. it doesn't say _ silent... there are no exemptions. it doesn't say if _ silent... there are no exemptions. it doesn't say if you _ silent... there are no exemptions. it doesn't say if you are _ silent... there are no exemptions. it doesn't say if you are likely- silent... there are no exemptions. it doesn't say if you are likely to i it doesn't say if you are likely to breach— it doesn't say if you are likely to breach privacy— it doesn't say if you are likely to breach privacy or— it doesn't say if you are likely to breach privacy or confidentiality| breach privacy or confidentiality then— breach privacy or confidentiality then don't— breach privacy or confidentiality then don't report. _ breach privacy or confidentiality then don't report. it— breach privacy or confidentiality then don't report. it requires. breach privacy or confidentiality| then don't report. it requires you to report — then don't report. it requires you to report and _ then don't report. it requires you to report and actually _ then don't report. it requires you to report and actually the - then don't report. it requires you to report and actually the breach| then don't report. it requires you . to report and actually the breach of confidentiality _ to report and actually the breach of confidentiality was _ to report and actually the breach of confidentiality was achieved - to report and actually the breach of confidentiality was achieved at - to report and actually the breach of confidentiality was achieved at thatj confidentiality was achieved at that meeting _ confidentiality was achieved at that meeting on— confidentiality was achieved at that meeting on the _ confidentiality was achieved at that meeting on the 2nd _ confidentiality was achieved at that meeting on the 2nd of— confidentiality was achieved at that meeting on the 2nd of april. - confidentiality was achieved at that meeting on the 2nd of april. with i meeting on the 2nd of april. with the benefit — meeting on the 2nd of april. with the benefit of _ meeting on the 2nd of april. with the benefit of hindsight, - meeting on the 2nd of april. with the benefit of hindsight, would i meeting on the 2nd of april. with. the benefit of hindsight, would you report— the benefit of hindsight, would you report something _ the benefit of hindsight, would you report something like _ the benefit of hindsight, would you report something like this - the benefit of hindsight, would you report something like this again i report something like this again immediately? _ report something like this again immediately? h0. _ report something like this again immediately?— report something like this again immediately? no, i'm not sure i words. immediately? no, i'm not sure i words- you _ immediately? no, i'm not sure i words. you have _ immediately? no, i'm not sure i words. you have all _ immediately? no, i'm not sure i words. you have all spent - immediately? no, i'm not sure i i words. you have all spent months immediately? no, i'm not sure i - words. you have all spent months on this committee, so you have thought about _ this committee, so you have thought about is— this committee, so you have thought about... is that true? gf this committee, so you have thought about. .. is that true?— about... is that true? of course it is true. about... is that true? of course it is true- l'm _ about... is that true? of course it is true. i'm prepared _ about... is that true? of course it is true. i'm prepared to _ about... is that true? of course it is true. i'm prepared to go - about... is that true? of course it is true. i'm prepared to go out. about... is that true? of course it is true. i'm prepared to go out on j about... is that true? of course it i is true. i'm prepared to go out on a limb here and _ is true. i'm prepared to go out on a limb here and say _ is true. i'm prepared to go out on a limb here and say that _ is true. i'm prepared to go out on a limb here and say that you - is true. i'm prepared to go out on a | limb here and say that you probably haven't _ limb here and say that you probably

haven't thought about these things as often— haven't thought about these things as often as i have. i have agonised over— as often as i have. i have agonised over every— as often as i have. i have agonised over every decision and every step that i_ over every decision and every step that i took— over every decision and every step that i took on this process. i have searched — that i took on this process. i have searched my soul on this on a personal— searched my soul on this on a personal level, a political level, a government level but on that particular decision, i did not intervene. i didn't try to influence this process. if i had picked up the phone _ this process. if i had picked up the phone or— this process. if i had picked up the phone or told the civil service that i phone or told the civil service that i knew _ phone or told the civil service that i knew my — phone or told the civil service that i knew. my worry was that that acting — i knew. my worry was that that acting itself might have been the process — acting itself might have been the process. suddenly, you have got civil servants even subliminally thinkingm _ civil servants even subliminally thinking... and the publication requirements of that potentially when _ requirements of that potentially when people as they would have done would _ when people as they would have done would have _ when people as they would have done would have said what are you meeting alex salmond for? essentially, the confidentiality would have been breached. that is the position i took _ breached. that is the position i took. james hamilton will come to view on _ took. james hamilton will come to view on whether he thinks that was i’ili'it view on whether he thinks that was right or— view on whether he thinks that was right or wrong. i simply point to the fact— right or wrong. i simply point to the fact that there are other parts

of the _ the fact that there are other parts of the ministerial code that also put responsibility on me to respect the confidentiality of government business — the confidentiality of government business and respect the impartiality of civil servants. before — impartiality of civil servants. before this year, i would have said that this _ before this year, i would have said that this was the most difficult set of decisions that i would have had to take _ of decisions that i would have had to take i— of decisions that i would have had to take. i think after this year, that— to take. i think after this year, that is— to take. i think after this year, that is probably not the case. the personal. — that is probably not the case. the personal, political, governmental... but it— personal, political, governmental... but it really. — personal, political, governmental... but it really, the combination of all of— but it really, the combination of all of this— but it really, the combination of all of this was horrendously difficult _ all of this was horrendously difficult. i tried to reach the best judgments. maybe people decide that i judgments. maybe people decide that ididn't _ judgments. maybe people decide that i didn't. but i have to be able to ididn't. but i have to be able to satisfy— i didn't. but i have to be able to satisfy myself that i did the things that i_ satisfy myself that i did the things that i thought were right at the time _ that i thought were right at the time as— that i thought were right at the time as well as i could. that is what _ time as well as i could. that is what i — time as well as i could. that is what i have _ time as well as i could. that is what i have thought a lot about and i what i have thought a lot about and i believe _ what i have thought a lot about and i believe that i reach the best

judgments that i could. please leave s - ace judgments that i could. please leave sace for judgments that i could. please leave space for the — judgments that i could. please leave space for the deputy. _ judgments that i could. please leave space for the deputy. i _ judgments that i could. please leave space for the deputy. i hope - judgments that i could. please leave space for the deputy. i hope that - judgments that i could. please leave space for the deputy. i hope that we | space for the deputy. i hope that we can run over- _ space for the deputy. i hope that we can run over- i— space for the deputy. i hope that we can run over. ithink— space for the deputy. i hope that we can run over. i think we _ space for the deputy. i hope that we can run over. i think we should - can run over. i think we should exhaust — can run over. i think we should exhaust the _ can run over. i think we should exhaust the questions. - can run over. i think we should exhaust the questions. i- can run over. i think we should exhaust the questions.- can run over. i think we should exhaust the questions. i have to sa , i exhaust the questions. i have to say. i think _ exhaust the questions. i have to say. i think an — exhaust the questions. i have to say, i think an eight _ exhaust the questions. i have to say, i think an eight hour- exhaust the questions. i have to i say, i think an eight hour meeting is pretty fair... say, i think an eight hour meeting is pretty fair- - -_ is pretty fair... you met geoff aberdein _ is pretty fair... you met geoff aberdein on _ is pretty fair... you met geoff aberdein on the _ is pretty fair... you met geoff aberdein on the 29th - is pretty fair... you met geoff aberdein on the 29th of - is pretty fair... you met geoffi aberdein on the 29th of march, is pretty fair... you met geoff - aberdein on the 29th of march, you met alex— aberdein on the 29th of march, you met alex salmond _ aberdein on the 29th of march, you met alex salmond on _ aberdein on the 29th of march, you met alex salmond on the _ aberdein on the 29th of march, you met alex salmond on the 2nd - aberdein on the 29th of march, you met alex salmond on the 2nd of. aberdein on the 29th of march, you . met alex salmond on the 2nd of april in your— met alex salmond on the 2nd of april in your home, — met alex salmond on the 2nd of april in your home, messages _ met alex salmond on the 2nd of april in your home, messages were - in your home, messages were exchanged _ in your home, messages were exchanged on _ in your home, messages were exchanged on the _ in your home, messages were exchanged on the 1st - in your home, messages were exchanged on the 1st of - in your home, messages were exchanged on the 1st ofjune,| in your home, messages were i exchanged on the 1st ofjune, the 3rd of— exchanged on the 1st ofjune, the 3rd ofjune. — exchanged on the 1st ofjune, the 3rd ofjune. 7th _ exchanged on the 1st ofjune, the 3rd ofjune, 7th of— exchanged on the 1st ofjune, the 3rd ofjune, 7th ofjune, - exchanged on the 1st ofjune, the 3rd ofjune, 7th ofjune, you - exchanged on the 1st ofjune, the 3rd ofjune, 7th ofjune, you met| 3rd ofjune, 7th ofjune, you met geoff— 3rd ofjune, 7th ofjune, you met geoff aberdein. _ 3rd ofjune, 7th ofjune, you met geoff aberdein. meetings - 3rd ofjune, 7th ofjune, you met geoff aberdein. meetings in - 3rd ofjune, 7th ofjune, you met geoff aberdein. meetings injuly| geoff aberdein. meetings injuly including — geoff aberdein. meetings injuly including one _ geoff aberdein. meetings injuly including one on _ geoff aberdein. meetings injuly including one on the _ geoff aberdein. meetings injuly including one on the 14th - geoff aberdein. meetings injuly including one on the 14th of- geoff aberdein. meetings injuly including one on the 14th ofjuly| geoff aberdein. meetings in july l including one on the 14th ofjuly in your home — including one on the 14th ofjuly in your home. given _ including one on the 14th ofjuly in your home. given what _ including one on the 14th ofjuly in your home. given what you - including one on the 14th ofjuly in your home. given what you are . including one on the 14th ofjuly in - your home. given what you are saying about _ your home. given what you are saying about his _ your home. given what you are saying about his behaviour, _ your home. given what you are saying about his behaviour, why— your home. given what you are saying about his behaviour, why did - your home. given what you are saying about his behaviour, why did you - about his behaviour, why did you keep— about his behaviour, why did you keep meeting _ about his behaviour, why did you keep meeting him? _ about his behaviour, why did you keep meeting him?— keep meeting him? these are reasonable — keep meeting him? these are reasonable questions. - keep meeting him? these are reasonable questions. you - keep meeting him? these are| reasonable questions. you are absolutely right. this does go down to issues— absolutely right. this does go down to issues ofjudgment. other people in the _ to issues ofjudgment. other people in the same situations as me might have done — in the same situations as me might have done different things. that is the complexity of the situation we

face _ the complexity of the situation we face i_ the complexity of the situation we face. i think i referred to a meeting _ face. i think i referred to a meeting on the 13th ofjuly but it was in _ meeting on the 13th ofjuly but it was in fact— meeting on the 13th ofjuly but it was in fact on the 14th ofjuly. i was _ was in fact on the 14th ofjuly. i was dealing with a situation that involved — was dealing with a situation that involved somebody who was the former first minister facing a government investigation, the former leader of my party, — investigation, the former leader of my party, where this potentially had hu-e my party, where this potentially had huge implications for my party. somebody was a really —— somebody, who was— somebody was a really —— somebody, who was a _ somebody was a really —— somebody, who was a really close friend of mine — who was a really close friend of mine i— who was a really close friend of mine. i cared about him. all of this led me _ mine. i cared about him. all of this led me to _ mine. i cared about him. all of this led me to make these decisions and try to _ led me to make these decisions and try to balance them in a way that i thought— try to balance them in a way that i thought was appropriate. we have talked _ thought was appropriate. we have talked a _ thought was appropriate. we have talked a lot about the 29th of march and the _ talked a lot about the 29th of march and the 2nd of april. i have set out the reasons— and the 2nd of april. i have set out the reasons of why i decided to meet injune~ _ the reasons of why i decided to meet injune~ i_ the reasons of why i decided to meet injune. ithink the reasons of why i decided to meet injune. i think on the 14th of july, — injune. i think on the 14th of july. you _ injune. i think on the 14th of july, you could actually say why did i do july, you could actually say why did i do that? — july, you could actually say why did i do that? that is the one that i have _

i do that? that is the one that i have said. _ i do that? that is the one that i have said, why did i do that? i think— have said, why did i do that? i think i— have said, why did i do that? i think i know why you did it. i still have _ think i know why you did it. i still have this — think i know why you did it. i still have this worry that this might be about— have this worry that this might be about to — have this worry that this might be about to erupt and i was still concerned about him. i'm just going to say— concerned about him. i'm just going to say this. — concerned about him. i'm just going to say this. i— concerned about him. i'm just going to say this, i still felt despite everything, a loyalty to him. and that is— everything, a loyalty to him. and that is why— everything, a loyalty to him. and that is why i make these decisions. you people — that is why i make these decisions. you people will have to decide whether— you people will have to decide whether you think i was right or wrong — whether you think i was right or wrong the _ whether you think i was right or wrong. the thing i was absolutely adamant — wrong. the thing i was absolutely adamant about is that i would not want _ adamant about is that i would not want his— adamant about is that i would not want his behalf... despite what i said about — want his behalf... despite what i said about loyalty and friendship, i would _ said about loyalty and friendship, i would not — said about loyalty and friendship, i would not try to influence this process— would not try to influence this process in— would not try to influence this process in the way that he wanted me to because _ process in the way that he wanted me to because i_ process in the way that he wanted me to because i think that would be inappropriate. that is the touchstone on this is that i believe i touchstone on this is that i believe i was _ touchstone on this is that i believe i was right— touchstone on this is that i believe i was right to do. i know i have heard — i was right to do. i know i have heard this _ i was right to do. i know i have heard this afternoon different views

on that _ heard this afternoon different views on that but i think that was the right— on that but i think that was the right decision to make. finally, you said to andrew _ right decision to make. finally, you said to andrew marr _ right decision to make. finally, you said to andrew marr in _ right decision to make. finally, you said to andrew marr in 2018 - right decision to make. finally, you said to andrew marr in 2018 that i right decision to make. finally, you. said to andrew marr in 2018 that you had not _ said to andrew marr in 2018 that you had not heard — said to andrew marr in 2018 that you had not heard any— said to andrew marr in 2018 that you had not heard any complaints - said to andrew marr in 2018 that you had not heard any complaints abouti had not heard any complaints about alex salmond _ had not heard any complaints about alex salmond. it _ had not heard any complaints about alex salmond. it was _ had not heard any complaints about alex salmond. it was an _ had not heard any complaints aboutl alex salmond. it was an unequivocal denial, _ alex salmond. it was an unequivocal denial, yet _ alex salmond. it was an unequivocal denial. yet you — alex salmond. it was an unequivocal denial, yet you told _ alex salmond. it was an unequivocal denial, yet you told us _ alex salmond. it was an unequivocal denial, yet you told us today - alex salmond. it was an unequivocal denial, yet you told us today about l denial, yet you told us today about an alleged — denial, yet you told us today about an alleged incident _ denial, yet you told us today about an alleged incident that _ denial, yet you told us today about an alleged incident that you - denial, yet you told us today about an alleged incident that you had i an alleged incident that you had knowledge _ an alleged incident that you had knowledge of— an alleged incident that you had knowledge of airport _ an alleged incident that you had knowledge of airport in - an alleged incident that you had knowledge of airport in 2013. i an alleged incident that you hadl knowledge of airport in 2013. did you get— knowledge of airport in 2013. did you get it — knowledge of airport in 2013. did you get it wrong? _ knowledge of airport in 2013. did you get it wrong? i— knowledge of airport in 2013. did you get it wrong?— you get it wrong? i come in that interview. _ you get it wrong? i come in that interview. two _ you get it wrong? i come in that interview, two things _ you get it wrong? i come in that interview, two things have - you get it wrong? i come in that interview, two things have beenj interview, two things have been completed for now. i can't speak for andrew— completed for now. i can't speak for andrew marr on the basis on which he asked _ andrew marr on the basis on which he asked the _ andrew marr on the basis on which he asked the question but i was answering the question about the government complains. this guy saying. — government complains. this guy saying, yes, i have set out the suspicions— saying, yes, i have set out the suspicions that it left me lingering with _ suspicions that it left me lingering with -- _ suspicions that it left me lingering with -- sky— suspicions that it left me lingering with. —— sky thing. this applies to

the period — with. —— sky thing. this applies to the period after that. i was aware there _ the period after that. i was aware there were — the period after that. i was aware there were other proceedings potentially under way. on this issue. — potentially under way. on this issue. i— potentially under way. on this issue, i was trying not to say any more _ issue, i was trying not to say any more than — issue, i was trying not to say any more than i _ issue, i was trying not to say any more than i had to. these are all things— more than i had to. these are all things i_ more than i had to. these are all things i accept. after nine, when i made _ things i accept. after nine, when i made my— things i accept. after nine, when i made my initial statements, i have not been — made my initial statements, i have not been... this is one of the differences _ not been... this is one of the differences between me and alex salmond. — differences between me and alex salmond, i have never tried to pretend — salmond, i have never tried to pretend i'm infallible, i have never tried to _ pretend i'm infallible, i have never tried to pretend that i get things wrong _ tried to pretend that i get things wrong -- — tried to pretend that i get things wrong —— that i don't get things wrong —— that i don't get things wrong i'm _ wrong —— that i don't get things wrong. i'm sorry about that. i tried to do— wrong. i'm sorry about that. i tried to do these — wrong. i'm sorry about that. i tried to do these things as best i could. ms mitchell, we only have a few minutes left.— ms mitchell, we only have a few| minutes left._ i minutes left. this is important. i have 'ust minutes left. this is important. i have just asked _ minutes left. this is important. i have just asked you _ minutes left. this is important. i have just asked you to _ minutes left. this is important. i have just asked you to be - minutes left. this is important. i have just asked you to be brief. l have just asked you to be brief. would you please do so? i was quite clear when i felt the meeting should close. i can allow a couple of

minutes leeway but i'm not going to have another... could you please carry on instead of wasting time. transparency and accountability is what we establish at the very beginning is essentialfor any beginning is essential for any government beginning is essentialfor any government to establish trust with the... in responding to the fact that no insofar has taken any responsibility at all for the catastrophe —— catastrophic fallout from the government's complaint handling that cost almost £1 million to the taxpayer. your response is, perhaps you have been too understanding to those who make mistakes. that includes very highly qualified individuals with pensions earning what the normal scots would deem as eye watering salaries. they

have had to come back to the committee repeatedly and correct their evidence. the dependence on ourface civil service their evidence. the dependence on our face civil service matters. either we have the most incompetent civil servants under the sun and thatis civil servants under the sun and that is doing such an injustice to our excellent civil service year and thatis our excellent civil service year and that is regrettable or after 13 years, the independence and the lines have been blurred, is that a possibility that doesn't concern you? if you don't mind, i believe your questions to the end. —— your your questions to the end. -- your answers to the end. your questions to the end. —— your answers to the end. we have also heard evidence and this is definitely abuse of the ministerial code, that there has been an abuse

of power in leadership and to substantiate the abuse of power allegations, your response has been, well, the evidence? can i turn you to the official report and just exactly the problem with providing that evidence, which our committee has also experienced? this is what alex salmond says. i'd be here before you under the explicit threat of prosecution if i reveal evidence on which the committee has asked. not to reveal my oath and tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth would be contempt but the crown office said it might lead to prosecution. i put it to you, first minister, anyone looking in isolation at this process would assume that this was an enquiry process put in place by a

dictatorship. furthermore, it is deeply damaging to the proud and well respected system ofjustice in scotland and it leaves it into disrepute and open ridicule. it is taken by the decision of the crown to establish that it is an absolute that could possibly lead to a breach of lady dorian's order... we believe that, please turn to the website for scotland and holyrood, here is rishi sunak with more on the budget. i'm speaking to you now directly to explain what this budget means for our economy and for you at home. i want to be honest with you about the problems we face and our plan to fix them. this time last