the us has imposed new sanctions on myanmar as the crackdown by the militsry against anti coup protestors continues. a un security meeting is scheduled for friday with the the un's special rapporteur on human rights suggesting they should impose an arms embargo and targeted sanctions on the militaryjunta. china's annual parliamentary session begins soon amid reports that it plans to change the way elections are conducted in hong kong. it's being seen as the latest attempt to squeeze out the pro—democrarcy opposition. the duchess of sussex has suggested the royal family has been perpetuating falsehoods about her and prince harry. in a clip from a forthcoming interview with oprah winfrey, meghan said what she called "the firm" should not expect her to be silent.

now on bbc news... it's hardtalk with stephen sackur. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. never mind losing the presidency and both houses of congress — donald trump still seems to have a choke—hold on the republican party. already he's dropping hints about running again in 202a. and, even if he doesn't, he'll have a huge say in who does. so what are anti—trump republicans to make of it? my guest is evan mcmullin, one of their key organisers and strategists. fight from within or create a new conservative party — what should unhappy republicans do?

evan mcmullin in washington dc, welcome to hardtalk. good to be with you. let's talk about the last few weeks. how discouraged are you by what you've seen in conservative politics since that assault on the capitol onjanuary 6th and then the departure of trump and the inauguration ofjoe biden? what are your feelings about what you've seen over the last few weeks? well, certainly, on one hand, i'm discouraged that the majority of the republican party still desires the leadership of donald trump. certainly the violent insurrection onjanuary 6th was a low point and we could descend even further than that, ifear, as a republican party.

but i actually am more focused on some shifting sentiments that i think provide some measured level of opportunity, of opportunity and optimism, and that is that a fourth of the party now desires a new direction. and i know that seems like quite a meagre minority, but of course, i'm someone who's been fighting for a new direction for the republican party for over four years. and i had gotten quite used to doing it with io%—15%. so now that a fourth to a third of the party would like to move in some way beyond trump shows that we're moving in the right direction and the next question is, what do we do to further hasten that kind of trend? right, you're clearly a man who doesn't discourage easily, but at what point do you get fed up with banging your head against a brick wall?

because if you're seeing 25% of republicans beginning to doubt donald trump as good news, i'm just wondering how long you're prepared to fight this struggle. well, i think we just don't have a choice. i mean, it's true. i do have a hard head and we are seeing cracks in that brick wall, but we don't have a choice. we have two major parties in this country. that's our system. i wish it weren't the case. i wish we were a multiparty system. but we're a two—party democracy and one of our parties has drifted into an alternative information space and has become collectively anti—democracy. and wejust... that's just not a status quo we can tolerate. and so we have to kind of, we have to, we have to fight to pull it back or to replace it. there's just no other option. and of course, it's very difficult. it doesn't happen overnight, but we simply lack other choices. we can't afford to have one major party committed to democracy in america and the other one trying to destroy it. it'sjust, it's not

sustainable for our country. so we have to do the hard things in response, yeah. right, before we get into the dilemmas and choices facing you, i want you to take me with you in a journey into the mind—set and the soul of the republican party. when we see pictures, as we have over the last few days of donald trump being lauded at the florida meeting of cpac, the conservative organising movement, when we see everybody there cheering him to the rafters as he sort of plays with the audience and hints that he may well run again, and i'm going to quote his words, "the incredible journey we began together four years ago "to make america great again is farfrom over. "no matter how much the dc special interests "try to silence us, let there be no doubt "we will be victorious, "stronger and greater than ever before." why? why do so many republican voters still regard that as attractive?

i think what's happening on the republican side is that many of my fellow republicans have convinced themselves that, that their idea of america is so threatened that they are, that they, if necessary, must fight against democracy in order to preserve it, which is why you see a lot of republican efforts around the country to make it more difficult for their opposition to vote. really, just direct, explicit attacks on democracy. and that's what's happening. so they found someone in donald trump who's willing to fight even outside of the bounds and limitations of democracy in order to preserve their vision for america, which is an america that is more exclusive than inclusive, and that's the kindest, most generous way i can put it. but i will say at this cpac event, which gathered the most active republican operatives from around the country,

the most loyal republican activists, only 55% of them said in the straw poll that was conducted at that gathering that they would prefer donald trump in a primary election. now, that's still a lot of people and it still shows his dominance in the party, but it also shows that he's not maybe quite as strong as he once was. only 68%, and i know that seems like an overwhelming majority and it certainly is, but only 68% of them even want him to run again, which again shows us that, you know, about a third of the party is looking for a new direction. now, in some cases, it's a direction more aligned with my vision for the republican party, or an alternative. in other cases, it's a vision that's more aligned with trump's ideology and methods, but desires to move on from him personally. so you know what's in that third of people looking for a new direction

is complicated and, you know, it's not uniform. it's not homogeneous. but, nevertheless, it is an opportunity. right. let us try to capture what is happening in the republican party's establishment, if i can put it that way. the party's biggest name officials, the most significant players in the congressional caucus. i'm going to quote you, lindsey graham, senator, who has prided himself in recent years on his closeness to donald trump, but who, in the aftermath of the assault on the capitol on january 6th, said, "count me out." he said he had feelings of humiliation and embarrassment after what had happened. he suggested he was cutting his ties with donald trump. only a few days later, he'd completely reversed course. he said, "the way i look at it now, there is no way "we can achieve our goals without donald trump." what do you make of people like lindsey graham? well, first of all, i think you saw people

like lindsey graham and mitch mcconnell and others send out a trial balloon for a departure from donald trump within the gop after the insurrection on the 6th. and unfortunately, that trial balloon was shot right out of the air by the majority of the republican base, which is why you saw a change in course that soon followed. and look, lindsey graham and others are now saying that the republican party can't win without donald trump and can't win without those who have opposed him. and at least they're correct in that. but what they don't understand is that there simply cannot be room in the republican party for an anti—democracy movement, especially one that forms the majority of the party and those of us who are committed to our democratic republic. so, it'sjust, that's the kind of thing you can't compromise, or you can'tjoin those two things indefinitely. isn't the real difference between you and people

like lindsey graham and mitch mcconnell is that they have something to lose because they have positions of power, certainly within the party, if not the nation. you have nothing to lose. you did run a fairly quixotic effort to run for president in 2016 when you garnered 0.5% of the vote. and maybe you just like gesture politics. you like to be sort of talked about in a game where you're not a big player and never will be. well, thank you for your generous portrayal of our efforts and of my efforts. but look, we ran a three—month campaign in 2016 because no—one else would do it. and that was an effort to present another vision for conservatism and republicanism than the one that was being offered by donald trump. and actually, we've gone on to have quite a large impact. yes, we've been a small minority of the party, but we've learned how to have, how to have decisive impact in elections in america. we removed a number of trump's allies in congress.

we then mobilised principled republicans and conservatives to defeat him in 2020. so we learned how to be effective with just io%—15%. yes, those are modest numbers, but those are the majority—making votes in the country. and so, while we're small in number, and while our efforts have at times been modest, the electoral impact when races are close, when the margin of victory between the majority and the minority in the house or senate is razor—thin, if not deadlocked evenly as it is in the senate, our votes matter and our numbers are growing again. we've been fighting with sometimes 5% of the republican party, if not 15% at times. and now we're at a fourth to a third of the party. and that's why you see people like even lindsey graham saying, look, we have to stay together, we can't win, or you hear the rnc, the republican national party, trying to, you know, speaking in a, in a unifying way, trying to bring people like us along and keep us

inside the party. and that's because the party needs us to prevail. yeah, and one reason they are somewhat worried about what's going on is because they see some plotting happening. there was particularly this zoom conference call that you are said to have been a key architect of back in february, where apparently more than 100 republican activists, some quite important players in the party, joined the call to discuss this very choice of whether to stay and fight within the party or whether to consider a breakaway movement and leaving the republican party altogether. many wanted to remain anonymous. you acknowledge that you were part of it, so you tell me — what was the conclusion? well, i do want to say that it wasn't really the desire of everyone to remain anonymous. we hosted the meeting and held it under chatham house rule,

which means that we committed as hosts to not identifying those who participate, who participated. most of them, the vast majority of them are actually quite public figures, intellectual and political leaders. just, sorry to interrupt. can you tell me, were some of them elected representatives, you know, congressmen and senators? yes, we had currently elected officials, including some in congress who participated and others who were recently in office and others who have been in office before and are planning to run again soon. really, it was a gathering of very...the most influential, principled republican political and intellectual leaders, over 120 of them. since then, many more have joined our discussions and in our planning, and, you know, it was quite interesting to hear what their thoughts were on what we needed to do now. but "interesting" doesn't really get us very far. i want to be more specific

because one news agency conducted a straw poll of those that were prepared to answer a question after the zoom call. and apparently 40% of your contributors thought that a new party should be the next step and 43% thought that it would be better to remain as a faction within the republican party. so that was pretty much a tie. so, you know, americans are confused. what the heck are you going to do? well, actually, we conducted that straw poll of the participants on that call. so, you know, and we learned quite a lot. and, yes, you portrayed the results accurately. since then, we've continued to talk and plan about, you know, what the appropriate next step is. and i think the emerging consensus is that it's not either/or, it's not start a party or remain a faction. it's more likely both. i think we have to be, again, learning lessons from fighting as a minority for the last four to five years, we've learned

how to be resourceful and how to apply minority influence with great effect, the kind of effect that decides who controls congress, who controls the senate and who controls the white house. and so i think what's more likely to emerge is a plan to build a faction that operates independently of the republican party, meaning it supports pro—democracy republicans, but is also willing to support viable independents and unifying democrats and an effort that organises officially, formally as a party in certain states, especially states where republicans have become a third party. you know, the democrats are dominant. independents are the next most dominant group. and then you've got the republicans who can't compete. and there are a number of states like that. the republican party has become so extreme in its current form that it literally does not even compete as a second party in a handful of states. and so those states create

opportunities for us, for those and other reasons to formally organise as a party if we wish to do that. and so i think what you'll see from us is non—traditional, non—traditional. .. yeah, i thought i was confused before, but i'm even more confused now! so you're saying in some states you could become a viable third party and then in other states you'll try and stay inside the republican party? that, that seems like dreamland politics to me. no, not necessarily. i mean, look, it's what we've already been doing for the last four to five years. we've supported good republicans, we've supported unifying democrats and we've supported independents. so the tea party, for example, which was an insurgent party within a party, within the republican party over the last decade, it worked solely within the republican party, meaning it only supported republican candidates. and if their candidate didn't win in the primaries, they still supported the republican against the democrat. we'll operate a little differently. and we've already been doing that.

and what i mean by that is, for example, if you have an extremist republican, say, in arizona, there are a number of extremist republicans who are likely to run for senate in this next cycle, in this current cycle in 2022 versus mark kelly, the moderate, unifying democrat who won one of the arizona senate seats in the last cycle, he'll have to defend it again in this cycle. you know, if it's a republican extremist in that race against mark kelly, we'll be for mark kelly. and that's not something new for us, but it's different from what the tea party did. but one thing we know about politics is that it's not just about core principles. it's also about charisma and leadership. we learned that from donald trump. if nothing else, i'm struggling to see a real leader of this conservative, quote unquote, moderate alternative to trumpism on the right of american politics. you know, liz cheney, who might have been a potential leader, she said absolutely no way is she going to contemplate breaking away from the mainstream republican party. same from adam kinzinger, who's another well—known moderate republican congressman.

you don't have any leaders, do you? well, i would say that we have a number of leaders, but, you know, we're seeing progress... name one that people around the world might have heard of. well, you just named some. i mean, the fact that... yeah, but they say they're categorically not going to leave the republican party. look, we're not requiring that of them, so the fact is that, over the last four years, few republicans would even speak against trump and now you have a contingent in congress who are saying we've got to go in a new direction. and, you know, that includes even members of senate and house republican leadership. again, these things don't happen overnight, but we're seeing that progress. we're talking to members of congress in both chambers, republicans who tell us something new is needed. you know, give me a brand that i can associate with and still be a republican. and if that doesn't work,

then we're going to need something new, separate and new entirely. i mean, these are the kinds of conversations we'll have and we are having. some want to continue to fight to pull the republican party back, even as they say privately that it's unlikely to succeed and we may need to go in a new direction entirely, but it's important to have that fight. and frankly, the trends are in our favour where our numbers are growing, not shrinking. trump's numbers are shrinking. ours are growing. yeah, but, as you very honestly said from the beginning, at grassroots level amongst the base, there is a clear and overwhelming majority still supporting donald trump. there's a sort of alphabet soup of different moderate republican groups now who are committed to never—trumpism, but they're not mass movements. so how do you and your colleagues transform yourselves from being, if i may say so, fairly sort of elite republicans mostly on the coasts and become the kinds of republicans who can build a mass movement attracting support from, you know, the rust belt to west virginia, to arizona,

to the deep south? how can you build a mass movement for your brand of conservatism? well, look, we do have a grassroots movement across the country and we've mobilised them with great effect, as i've described already, in elections between 2016 and 2020. so, we have that. yes, it's a minority grassroots movement, but it's been enough to deliver striking blows against trump's republican party. and that's the reality. but your question is a fair one. how do we continue to grow? you know, we've been fighting for the last four to five years in opposition to trumpism, to this anti—democracy movement on the right here in the united states. but frankly, that is not enough, especially going forward. we've got to present our own vision for the party, but more importantly for the country. and in that, that is just a critical next step. we need to transition away from being solely opposed to donald trump.

and, but, you know, i'll say our opposition to trump has been driven by what we're for. we're for truth. we're for democracy. we're for the inherent liberty and equality of all. that's why we oppose donald trump. it hasn't been a personal animus towards him as much as it is we're for certain things that he opposes. and so we oppose him. right... well, we've got to move beyond that. we have to present a positive, more complete vision for the country and for leadership of the country. and that's something that we're working on. is it a positive vision or is it a vision borne out of fear of what could happen if donald trump re—emerges as the republican candidate, tries to run and maybe, who knows, even succeeds in winning the white house back in 202a? is that an idea that in your head equates to a fundamental threat to america's democratic system? well, i think it is quite possible that the scenario you laid out happens. i mean, we saw, for example,

viktor orban serve as prime minister of hungary in sort of a traditional european conservative way, mostly, and then come back years later and destroy hungarian democracy. so, you know, i think we would be looking at the same thing. we are looking at the same threat in the united states. but, you know, that creates an impetus and a motivation for us to move with urgency to do what we're doing. but, yes, the vision that we have to offer has to learn a number of lessons from the last four years, has to be capable of reaching americans across the country and unifying them around an alternative, whether within the gop or outside of it or both. but i think we can do that. i think especially this, you know, the result of the insurrection on the 6th has been that tens of thousands, over 140,000 republicans were reported to have left the republican party after the insurrection, in only 25 states that provided those numbers. that's incredible.

you know, now the registration of voters who consider themselves independents is 50% in the country, while only 25% consider themselves republicans. there's a huge opportunity to build something new. right. just a last quick and simple question. have you ever thought of simplifying your life and just becoming a member of the democratic party? it'd be so much easier. look, i'm not a natural democrat. i have differences of policy position and governing philosophy with the democratic party, but i've certainly, and we have certainly collectively worked with the democratic party to protect american democracy over the next four years, or the last four years. and we'll certainly do it over the next four years. but i would say, look, some people, some formerly principled republicans have left and joined the democratic party. i think that's a fine thing for people to do. but someone has to fight for two healthy parties in this, in this country or for an alternative that are committed to democracy. we just simply don't

have the luxury, no matter how hard it is, no matter what the odds are to simply say, yes, we're going to have an anti—democracy party and we're going to have a pro—democracy party. itjust, it's not sustainable. our republic will not survive that. and so that's the fight we're fighting. it's a long fight, it's a hard fight, but it's an honour and, you know, and a pleasure. i have to be a part of it. and we've been able to deliver results for the last four years and we've certainly got a lot more work to do, no doubt about it. evan mcmullin, i thank you very much for joining me on hardtalk. thank you.

hello. a colder start to the day for many of us because behind a weather front which has been sinking southwards, we've got colder air. but it still looks mainly dry, actually, and quite settled during the day ahead, albeit rather chilly. and the origin of that air right the way up from the poles here, following this weak weather front, which gave a lot of cloud through thursday. and into the start of thursday night, quite a keen breeze as well coming down the north sea coast. so temperatures hovering around freezing in southern and eastern areas holding up in the southwestjust under the cloud, close to freezing in rural areas in the south and east as well as further north. so a crisp start, and a better chance of some dry, bright and sunny weather through the day ahead, but there are some wintry showers following that weather front, given how cold it is. they will continue notjust through the remainder of the night but through the day to pester eastern areas, but they will be few and far between. temperatures are down, though, 7—8 celsius is below average for the time of year and lower

than they have been for the last couple of days, but with the sunshine and lighter winds, hopefully that will compensate. during the coming nights, again, through friday night into saturday, you can see we keep those clearer skies, and it is widely frosty, quite a sharp frost in many areas, these towns and cities, but they will be lower out in the suburbs. and that is because we keep our high—pressure with us, light winds, clearerskies, so temperatures at this time of year still with the lengthy nights will drop away, but perhaps some of the atlantic influence coming in from the west later in the weekend. but for saturday, subtle changes in wind direction across the north and the west. quite a brisk wind here both friday and saturday, but helping to break the cloud up elsewhere, still chilly after the cold starts, some mist and fog as well around in the mornings through the weekend. because of that light wind, it will be slow to clear. once it does, hopefully some sunshine. but this is the big change, the potentialfor some rain across the north and northwest of scotland during the day. the start of the atlantic

influence, if you like. and the temperatures will lift slightly, whilst elsewhere with the light wind regime, the mist and fog will still be with us sunday morning. now by the end of monday into tuesday, we are really starting to see the effect of the atlantic, and we could have quite a deep area of low pressure rattling in through tuesday and potentially again on wednesday, so it is looking much more unsettled we as go into the new week. for the weekend, still chilly, frosty, foggy nights, fine days. bye— bye.

this is bbc news. i'm lewis vaughanjones with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. turn everything off everything off the un is urged to come up with a strong international response in the wake of the myanmar military coup. there's a blunt message from the president of brazil as criticisms continues over the vaccine roll out programme and the rising death toll in the country. . all of this fussing and whining. _ . all of this fussing and whining, how _ . all of this fussing and whining, how long - . all of this fussing and whining, how long willl . all of this fussing and i whining, how long will we . all of this fussing and - whining, how long will we keep crying? we have to face our problems. china's congress set to unveil new plans to squeeze hong kong's democracy and ensure beijing loyalists are in charge. the war of words intensifies. the duchess of sussex accuses the royal family of spreading falsehoods about her and prince harry.

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