hello this is bbc news. the headlines: pressure grows on the government over its pay offer to health service staff in england — more unions join the backlash. speaking out for dialogue — pope francis meets one of the most historic trip to iraq. concerns over unnecessary self—isolation for schoolchildren in england, because of inaccurate coronavirus test results. a 50—year—old man has been arrested in dundee in connection with the disappearance of a woman and two children. officers entered a property in troon avenue in the city yesterday afternoon as part of an enquiry into a missing 25—year—old woman. a warning for the un security council that anti—coup demonstrators in myanmar are beginning to lose faith in the organisation.

they're usually a sign that spring has sprung — but why is this host of golden daffodils being left unpicked? but why is this host of from 1 the arrival of pope francis baghdad, the arrival of pope francis at a cathedral where he is about to give mass for iraq's much diminished christian community. it was about 2.5 million 20 years ago, now down to something over 100,000. nonetheless a passionate and devoted part of the christian church, and one of the oldest, in fact. the territory that is now iraq, in the first century ad, some of the earliest people in the middle east to adopt christianity. the pope giving matt there this afternoon, we will bring you some pictures and the

atmosphere of that a little later. —— giving mass. welcome to hardtalk — i'm stephen sackur. what is the chinese government doing to the muslim uyghur population of xinjiang province? well, a combination of personal testimony, leaked documents and satellite imagery points to a systematic policy of repression so far—reaching, us government officials have called it genocide. my guest isjewher ilham — a young uyghur woman whose father, a uyghur academic, has been imprisoned for seven years. the fate of the uyghurs has become a geopolitical issue — but is anything going to change?

jewher ilham, in the united states, welcome to hardtalk. i want to begin by taking you back eight years. it was eight years ago that you and your father went to beijing airport, preparing to fly to the united states. your dad was detained by the authorities — he could not fly. you had to fly on your own, and you have not seen your father since. so, can i begin by asking you, what do you know of your father's situation today? the last time i saw my father was eight years ago, and the last time i heard his voice was seven years ago. after we were separated at the airport, my father was arrested for a few days.

he was allowed to return home, and he started his house arrest time for 11 months. then he was officially arrested again, and then he was put under charge for a life sentence. since then, i haven't heard a word from him. i do not know what is his current health condition, if he's still held in the same prison as he was first announced, and nobody has seen him since 2017. we do not know if he's even alive. you don't know if he's alive. so, there's been no contact, whatsoever, for, what, four years? no contact with a lawyer, no contact with his wife, your stepmother, nobody at all? right. my family was trying to reach out to the police in the uyghur region, but the requests were rejected and no family

visits were allowed. since 2017, we have heard no news of him. but before 2017, what i know of his condition was he lost over a0 pounds. he was denied food twice, each time was for ten days. he was shackled both around his ankles and around his wrists. i am very concerned with his current condition. i do not know why exactly he was banned from family visits. even when he was allowed to be visited, he was allowed to be visited only every three months. even though according to the chinese law, every political prisoner was supposed to be allowed to be visited every month — and for my family's case, it was every three months. i feel, even at this distance, the degree of upset that you are going through. ijust wonder how hard you have to think before speaking to people like me about the situation. because we know that difficulties can be made,

not just for the prisoner in any situation like this, but also for the prisoner's family. you have family, of course, still living inside china. in fact, every member of my family, except me, still remain in china, and... one of my most frequent nightmares is that my speaking out would affect my family in a very negative way, which would make them suffer even worse than now. even though i have been speaking up for my father's case since seven years ago, until now, but i am still... every moment, i am afraid. i am worried for my stepmother, for my brothers, for my cousins — for their safety. my cousin is also in prison right now. she was sentenced for ten years

for having my father's photo in her cellphone. she was stopped at one of the checkpoints on the street on her way to the shopping mall. and i'm afraid more and more family members of mine would be treated the same. with my stepmother and my two brothers, they were monitored closely for over six months. there were policemen, four to six policemen, even sleeping outside of our apartment door for up to six months, and following them to everywhere they go and preventing them from meeting with others. it had affected my two little brothers tremendously in a very negative way, and i am very concerned for them until now — every single day, every morning when i wake up. i want to ask you about your father's trial, his case, because the chinese authorities were very clear. they said he had been fomenting and encouraging separatism,

which, of course, under the chinese law is a very serious crime. they even presented some evidence. i know it was a closed—door trial, but apparently evidence was presented, including a video of a lecture he delivered at the university, in which he said that xinjiang belongs to the uyghurs, not to the han chinese. it seemed to be an ethnic point he was making. what do you think of the case that was presented and the conviction? first of all, i have seen that video. all the video clips that i have seen were cut from the beginning and cut... it was taken out of the context. that's first. second, my father had never incited separatism. according to, well, chinese own language, the region is called xinjiang uyghur autonomous region.

so, technically, it does belong to the uyghurs. well, from the name. and i don't see anything wrong with this sentence. second of all, the chinese government has been accusing my father of being a separatist, someone who is an extremist, and someone who is advocating for violence — and that's all false accusations. what my father has been trying to do for the past decades, and throughout his research and his work, was to try to help. he was trying to promote peaceful dialogue between the han chinese and the uyghurs. if i may, jewher. you're a young woman, obviously, now in your mid—20s — but you left china when you were, i believe, 18. yes. but the truth is that the chinese government says that from the turn of the century there was an increasing problem in xinjiang, a problem of separatism, which involved people committed to violence

to create a separatist uyghur muslim nation. they call them terrorists. they cited particular instances — rioting in 2009 which left many han chinese dead. they referred to other violent attacks which caused more death in the years since then. would you acknowledge that when china talks of a separatist threat in xinjiang, there is something real there? indeed, there have been sporadic instances of violence, and it is true there has been a history of tension. it is true there also has been a result of this. but what i think is, if you subject people to violent repression over a period of many, many years, they will ultimately fight back. and it's very unfortunate... unfortunately, some would choose to do that with violence. not that i support such ways. but you can only oppress

people for so long without people fighting back — and, unfortunately, some chose violence. those incidents of violence were a reaction to systematic repression. but that doesn't merit what we are seeing now, of course, with what is happening in the uyghur region. i remember my father once said that the best thing would be for the authorities to take a step back and examine what drives people to such desperation in the first place. over the past three years, there has been a mounting pile of evidence showing the scale of systematic repression inside xinjiang. we have seen, not least, the satellite imagery of the detention camps. we've heard testimony from people who've managed to escape or leave those camps, telling us what happens inside. abusive behaviours, including — we learned in the last few

weeks — systematic allegations of sexual abuse and rape against women inside some of those camps. it is, though, difficult to be entirely sure that some of the evidence is verifiable. a lot of it does come down to personal testimony. you are a very long way from xinjiang — of necessity — right now, so how can you be sure that the evidence that crosses your computer and your desk is entirely accurate? indeed, there's no way, exact way, for me to verify the source completely. in fact, it's the chinese government that is making this process of verification so hard, since having access to the uyghur region is so much more difficult compared to before. but i can speak to my personal experience, and to that of my family —

which is that i know for a fact that the chinese government is trying to cover it up or let it fade away from people's attention. and i know these abuses are happening, because my father was sentenced to life in prison, my cousin is sentenced for ten years, and i have otherfamily relatives who have been interned and arrested. i do know people close to me who have their family members locked up for ridiculous reasons. and, secondly, more broadly, you should know that the reports of abuses are, as you mentioned, based on highly credible accounts of refugees, as well as from people who are still in the region. also, the fact that these egregious human rights abuses is recognised across the world. if i may, jewher. of course, you have the experience from

inside your own family — but yourfather was, in some ways, rather special in that he was incredibly well—connected. he ran the uyghur 0nline and the uyghur biz websites. he was very socially active. he was a human rights campaigner. he had a particular platform, voice and position in society. but when the chinese government responds to these wider claims about the detention camps, they call them vocational and re—education camps. and i'm going to quote you a couple of important voices in china. first of all, the chinese ambassador to the us. back in 2018, when many reports were emerging of these camps, he said, "we are simply trying to re—educate people, trying to turn them into normal persons who can go back to normal life." and president xijinping, in september 2020, said... justifying the "education effort" as he called it in xinjiang, he said,

"all ethnic groups need a correct perspective on the country, history and nationality." would you accept that china has a right to tell the people of xinjiang, you know, about the country's culture, try to persuade them to notjust use the uyghur language, but use the language of the entire nation, and to question, perhaps, some of the more extreme religious views that some people might have inside xinjiang? i personally believe nobody is able, or should be allowed to, brainwash others or try to change other people's views by force. what makes every human being unique is that we have our own culture, our own language, our own system, our own thinkings. i also believe what my father used to tell me —

that a normal society allows more than one voice. what the chinese government has been trying to do throughout the region is to shut everyone up, and then force people to think in the exact same way — which favours the chinese government's ideologies. and i think that is not very healthy, and i do not support this. what is your impression of what is happening to the population of the uyghur areas of xinjiang right now? because your own father wrote extensively about the degree to which han chinese were being encouraged to migrate and takejobs inside those areas. and we also know that many thousands of uyghurs have been forcibly required to go and do factory work outside their own region. so, has the demographics of the region fundamentally changed? unfortunately, i can't answer this question directly, because i don't live

in the region. i haven't been back for over nine or ten years, so far. but my assumption, based on my own assumption, i am very concerned with what it is like in the whole uyghur region. i was able to communicate with certain members of my family in the uyghur region, and it was... 0ur conversation was completely absurd. it was very different from in the past. you are not allowed to say, "as—salaam aleikum," which is a normal muslim greeting. i do not believe this incites islamic extremism. you do not say, "allah'a emanet," which is, "allah wish you peace." you have to say, "xi jinping wish you peace," or, "xi jinping wish you well." this is... when the government says that they are trying to help the uyghurs to become normal people, but i feel like, in

this case, uyghurs are being... ..are living in a very abnormal way. i am very concerned, and i'm afraid that the newer generations will lose our roots, our lineage, our connection to our origins and our roots, our language and our culture. i am very concerned for that. let me go back to the personal forjust a moment. we know that china has built this extraordinary surveillance machinery across the country, frankly, but particularly focused in xinjiang. they really monitor people very closely. we also know they seem to have the capacity to monitor people of interest outside the country, too. and it seems some people connected to uyghur groups in exile have received threats, not least that their family members back inside china may suffer if they continue to use their voices. do you believe you're being surveilled, and have you received threats?

i personally have never received threats from any chinese individuals. i do constantly receive criticism or very nasty language. i read nasty languages in my personal social media accounts, and i have gotten used to that. i have learned the worst languages ever because of them. what i do know, i am definitely surveilled. i'm not sure about the new phone, but with my previous phone, i know it was monitored. my conversations with others were monitored. because after sharing information of myself attending a uyghur couple's wedding, a week later, this uyghur couple, a young newlywed couple, was contacted by someone in the uyghur region and said they should not be inviting me to their wedding.

growing up, we had bugging devices in my living room in beijing. growing up, i know my father's phone was constantly monitored. growing up, i knew that this type of surveillance, it's just glued to me. i guess, there's very little doubt... there's no doubt that the chinese government is well aware of your current activities. after graduating, you've devoted a lot of your time to activism, raising awareness about what is happening to the uyghur people, also particularly focusing on workers�* rights, because i know you're very involved in efforts to alert the world to the use of forced labour in supply chains involving some of the biggest corporate brands in the western world. so, let us talk about the impact that your campaign is having. are you satisfied or dissatisfied with the degree to which the outside world is waking up and responding to what's happening in xinjiang? i have to say, there has been growing momentum, but...

i'm sorry, i'm a greedy person — i do not think it's enough. i don't think it's enough. i will continue not being satisfied until every single innocent uyghur has been released. and i do urge governments around the world... brands and corporates around the world can, you know, be held accountable and be responsible and enforce measures to help fix this forced labour issue. it is not something that should be allowed in this 21st century. top us officials — mike pompeo, the outgoing secretary of state under donald trump, and now the incoming secretary of state, the new secretary of state, tony blinken — have both called what is happening to the uyghur people in xinjiang as genocide — they've used that word. we see that sanctions have been placed on some senior chinese officials in connection with what is happening in xinjiang by the us government.

the uk government is talking about ensuring that companies are punished if they use supply chains which appear to involve slave labour. so, things are happening — but you believe they're not enough, do you? yes, because uyghurs are still suffering. there's hundreds of thousands of uyghurs still locked up, still working in factories, forced to work in factories, or having to be forced to "voluntarily" work in factories. and that is why i do not think it's enough. i think more and more governments around the world should be involved and help china. it's not force china, but i do think the world needs to help china realise its own mistakes and help it... but, jewher, if i may. isn't the point here that china's economy is one of the two most powerful in the world, and through the course of the century it's going to become the world's most powerful economy.

if you look, for example, in europe, you get a lot of rhetorical support for the cause of uyghur human rights from governments in europe, but then they go and sign a major investment deal with the beijing government. because — driven by germany more than any other country — the argument is that they need to deepen the economic ties with china. that is a pragmatism. it's a reality that your campaign is never going to overcome, is it? i do know that it is difficult, and i am not asking to boycott china entirely. that is not what i'm asking. i've never asked that either. and i have no problem with any countries being powerful economically, orany ways, in the world. i'm not against that. but what i am against is the systematic repression that is taking place in the uyghur region, and i do think every government in the world has the responsibility to hold the chinese government

accountable on this specific matter. i am positive because i have seen positive changes. there are brands and corporates that have responded positively. with myjob, i am a part of the coalition to end uyghur forced labour. the coalition has come up with a call to action, which is asking the brands to exit the uyghur region. it was endorsed by over 365 organisations around the globe. it's not only us—based. and there have been brands that have signed the call to action, have agreed to follow up to make the commitments, and chose to be ethical. and that is why i am hopeful. it's going to be a long fight. it is going to be very difficult, but i do think it is feasible. a final thought, jewher. i was very struck by the words of one chinese human rights activist after your father was convicted and sentenced in 2014. he was described by this activist as

the "uyghur mandela". now, of course, nelson mandela spent all of those decades in prison, but ultimately he got out, and he triumphed and his political vision was made reality. do you believe your father, ultimately, can triumph in that way, and that his vision of the uyghur community being given more autonomy, more of a voice, able to use their own language within a sovereign china, do you think that is achievable with the communist party of china the way it is? call me naive, but i am a very positive person. my father had raised me this way. i am always very hopeful with. .. if i can't see this, maybe my children will see it, maybe my grandchildren will see it. but i do hope that day will come, and i do hope my father doesn't have to spend decades and decades in the prison. i do hope he can release today, tomorrow or any time soon. and i am hopeful — i do

believe this day will come. and i do hope the chinese government can realise its own mistakes soon, and make that day come sooner. jewher ilham, it's been a pleasure having you on hardtalk. thank you very much indeed. thank you very much. hello, the weather has been quite settled for a while now. a bit on the nippy side, for most of us quite cloudy. a touch of frost tonight and tomorrow night. next week looks very different, high pressure isn't going to hang around for very long. just a

few days, three days also. is also quite cloudy, high pressure, very little wind across the uk right now to move the clouds. but it is not a continuous layer, in fact far from it. big breaks in the cloud, eastern scotland, northern ireland, broadly the south—west of the uk. so some of us have had lengthy sunny spells today, but the vast majority stuck underneath the cloud, only around 5 degrees, it has felt nippy and will continue to do so. a different story in the north—west of scotland tonight, weatherfronts in the north—west of scotland tonight, weather fronts sneaking in the north—west of scotland tonight, weatherfronts sneaking in and brushing the north—west of the uk. mild and damp in stornoway. from central scotland south, clearing skies and a touch of frost, about —1 two outside of town. tomorrow, we do it all over again. hardly any wind across much of england and wales, some of us stuck underneath the

cloud. the weather fronts will continue to sneak into scotland, so some rain in the western isles. this pattern continues into monday. the high pressure eroding to the south, opening up the doors for weather fronts and the atlantic breeze to set in. that will bring moisture and cloud to the north—west uk. still under the influence of high pressure across england and wales, so in fact if anything here the temperatures will creep up, some sunshine and shouldn't feel bad at all in liverpool. big changes for next week. tuesday, and by wednesday, a powerfuljet week. tuesday, and by wednesday, a powerful jet stream week. tuesday, and by wednesday, a powerfuljet stream making a beeline for us. because it is powerful, it will also generate a nasty area of low pressure. that will swing in and there could be multiple low pressures heading our way. that spells very wet windy, stormy weather for some of us. that won't arrive until wednesday. until then, the weather looks settled.

this is bbc news with the latest headlines. pressure grows on the government over its pay offer to health service staff in england — more unions have joined the backlash. speaking out for dialogue, pope francis meets one of the most powerfulfigures in shia islam on day two of his historic trip to iraq. concerns over unnecessary self—isolation for school children in england because of inaccurate coronavirus test results. a warning for the un security council that anti—coup demonstrators in myanmar are beginning to lose faith in the organisation. they're usually a sign that spring has sprung, but why is this host of golden daffodils being left unpicked? in cricket, india thrash england by an innings and 25 runs in the fourth test to secure the series 3—1. and coming up — click looks at how gaming has helped