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now on bbc news, it's global questions. hello, welcome to global questions with me, zeinab badawi. world leaders are constantly saying that covid—19 is a global problem that needs international cooperation. but do these words sound hollow when we see how rich nations are buying up supplies of covid vaccines? as they rush to vaccinate their entire populations, many poorer countries have yet to administer a single jab. that's global questions: vaccine apartheid. well, to bring you this edition of global questions, our two panellists and our questioners join us via video link.

let me tell you who's in the hot seat this week giving the answers. carl bildt is a renowned international diplomat. he has served as both prime minister and foreign minister in his native sweden, and is now co—chair of the european council on foreign relations. he's been special envoy and representative for both the european union and the united nations in several hotspots, including the former yugoslavia. and john nkengasong is one of the world's leading scientists. he's director of the africa centres for disease control and prevention. born in cameroon, john is an eminent virologist with more than 30 years�* experience in public health. he has worked at the world health organization and is currently the who special envoy for africa. welcome to you both, gentlemen. and our questioners join us from all over the world. and of course, to you, wherever you're watching or listening to this. and remember, you, too, can join the conversation.

it's #bbcglobalquestions. let's get down to our first question. and it is from the capital of zambia, lusaka and aubrey undendoola. aubrey, what do you want to ask our two panellists? my question is, why is it that rich developed nations are putting aside very little, if any, vaccine doses for developing nations? it's not an issue of rich nations being obliged, but it's an issue of humanity. so where is the humanity? thank you all. very direct question there. carl bildt, where is the humanity? well, i think that humanity is there and as well as the self—interest because as long as everyone is safe, no one is safe. and what we are seeing now is the beginning of the setting aside of vaccines to be delivered all over the world through the different international mechanisms that have been set up. i mean, deliveries have been begun to different african countries in the last few days.

and this isjust the beginning of an effort to try to share this across the world, because that is both humanity and obvious self—interest. all right. ok, i must say, i've heard this. it's you know, we've all got to tackle it together because we're not all safe until everybody is. but that mantra is wearing a bit thin, clearly with people like aubrey. john, what's your response? do you see humanity? absolutely. i think the key question is humanity and we truly have to approach the timely access to covid vaccine from a humanity and security perspective, the collective security we set all the good things and the nice things when the pandemic started that. we have to have timely access and equitable access to covid vaccines when they become available. but again, we see that a significant

delay and the continent of africa is only now beginning to get access to vaccines where we celebrate while we celebrate that, we wish that that process should be accelerated and it should actually be more expansive so that we can actually beat this pandemic because we are dealing with collective human security on our planet. so, john, just to make that clear, then, are you seeing a lack of humanity on the part of western nations, the europeans, for instance? no, i'm saying we should understand that this is not about one part of the world being secured and another part of the globe struggling. is that going on, in your opinion? i mean, you can tell carl bildt that directly. yeah. my message to northern colleagues and friends and partners is that we have to do this simultaneously because it cannot be one part of the world we're finished immunizing. then another part of the world begins to immunize. carl, what do you say tojohn? no, no, ifundamentally

agree with that. and the problem is, of course, that it takes some time to sort of get production up and running to the extent that we wanted to. this is an extraordinary effort of magnitude has never been undertaken. and to get the vaccines approved, to get the production facilities up and running, and to get the international or global distribution mechanism up and running and financed. if you look at it, i think has been so far, so good. all right. let's see, aubrey. why did you ask that question, do you see a lack of humanity? i've seen that these vaccines made i available mostly or in large numbers within the rich countries. i think the help or the assistance or the provision is too limited . and that is the great concern.

all right. ok, thanks very much indeed. let's go to paris now, france, to elizabeth. elizabeth, your question, please. so i always thought that _ if you have the means and you really want to help someone buying them . food will teach them to be dependent on you and the food you give. but teaching them to make their own food will help them learn to be - independent and care for themselves. so why give them vaccines, . why not help poorer countries make their own vaccines? john, shouldn't africans just get together and say we're going to work with our scientists and provide our own solutions and so on and ask for technical know how and knowledge transfer and all the rest of it to make your own? that is absolutely a very good question, and that is what we are doing. we will be convening a meeting in africa at the highest level

of the african union that will bring together that the head of the leadership of the continent, policy makers and political leadership to really focus on april 12th on how do we begin to focus and commit ourselves to manufacturing vaccines on the continent, because this is a health security matter that we cannot mortgage our health security to external factors that we cannot control as a continent. so that is a very pertinent question that, believe me and trust that the african union and african cdc are working on that. all right. but, carl, in orderforthat to happen, the pharmaceutical companies and the western countries that invest in them have got to make sure that they are a bit more relaxed about intellectual property rights and, you know, allow other countries to get the know—how. will that happen? i think that's underway, there's a discussion going on in geneva to that effect and clearly it's in the interest of everyone, europeans and americans or whatever, for there to be sort of abundant production facilities

across the world and for those to be able to produce as soon as possible for everyone. i mean, we are talking about a process of getting vaccines out to the majority of the population of the world. and that, of course, requires far more production facilities than we have available. i mean, we are building new ones in europe, but that is clearly not enough. yeah, i mean, you've got the serum institute in india is working with astrazeneca, the british—swedish manufacturers of one of the covid—i9 vaccines, because there is a problem with global supply, isn't there? i mean, it's notjust a question of having the money or not, butjust let me ask you very quickly about this, carl. some western governments say, look, we have invested public funds in the creation of these vaccines. why should we then just let other countries make the most of our investment? no, but i mean, there is a global commitment to help. i mean, that has been set up. the vaccine alliance, the covax facility explicitly to distribute

vaccines across the world. i mean, tens of billions of dollars in order to make this possible, to get the vaccines out all across the world as soon as possible and then the different other treatments as well. that has to be said that that's part of the picture. all right. so, elizabeth, you've heard what our two panellists say. what do you think of their answers? there is always going to be the rich people and the poor people. - and somehow it's like the rich people need poor people - to help them get richer. i heard the same thing - in the international society, like you have rich countries - and poor countries and we don't just poor countries, - richer countries, and they're going to be able to get richer. so it's like no country, i no rich country is actually going to help a poor country become richer because it's _ going to be detrimental to them. so a bit sceptical about getting any help from richer countries. all right. we've got a question

on social media from israel, from mark apostille, who says, "should nations be encouraged or ordered to share vaccines with those countries who haven't successfully acquired the vaccines they require? and what, if any, mechanisms are available to enforce such equality?" let me give that to you, john. should rich countries like sweden, where carl bildt is from, be forced to help poorer countries such as yours, where you were born, cameroon? i don't think they should be forced, but this should clearly be an understanding that covid be eliminated everywhere. it will continue to be anywhere in the world or pose a threat everywhere in the world. i think from that perspective, we need cooperation. we need to really speak to the values of the un, the spirit of cooperation, the spirit of solidarity that governs all of us. and i think that is what the covax facility symbolizes. to me, that is a great expression that we can work together

through mechanisms like covax. and i believe that going forward is going to be a model that allow us to ensure that we govern pandemics in the most appropriate manner. so i don't know that we can other countries there, but we can work through the spirit of solidarity and cooperation to address health and security challenges of the world. ok, you mentioned covax, which, of course, that international fund whereby richer countries pay money into it so that the vaccines can be made available to poorer countries. but as you know, john, it's billions of dollars short of money, isn't it? and even if the money's there, the vaccine supply isn't. so that's what people say is going on there. only three countries in africa have actually received vaccines through covax so far. ok, let's go to st petersburg, russia, to helen lloyd. helen, your question, please. hi, i'm based in russia, _ as you mentioned, and i've seen that russians can just simply apply online for the local vaccine, i which is produced here.

and a number of latin american countries and central europeanl countries have also applied to russia for supplies - of the sputnik vaccine, i while at the same time, much western europe is being sort of quarrelling amongst themselves about the effectiveness of certain vaccines amongst older age - groups and over the lack of a vaccine supply. - and the whole vaccine - roll—out program has been, by their own admission, rather a shambles. - iwhat impact do you think this hasl conerning the same perception that people have of europe? ok, well, a question, though, with a lot of texture around it. let's go to carl on that one. perceptions of europe. no, i mean, it is very true that we have had a very vigorous debate about the quality of these particular vaccines that we had the very sort of thorough examination of that.

i think that's right, because the credibility of this particular approach is this is extremely important. but now the vaccine roll—out is going on in the different countries. it's accelerating. and i think we're ahead of russia, by the way, if we look at the numbers. if we look at the numbers, but that is not significant. and we hope that there will be further vaccines available as well. in addition to the ones that we have at the moment. i mean, the russian vaccine has not been, they haven't applied for being able to distribute it in europe, but i hope they do that as well as well as others. i've got to ask you very quickly, carl, before i go to you, john. i mean, really, europe's not had a very good vaccine campaign. they went for this kind of collective procurement, even, you know, technically advanced. germany has to date only vaccinated just over six million of its own people. we've had more than 20 million here in the uk true, but what the uk did was that they took an emergency procedures, so they approved it somewhat earlier than we did in europe.

that turned out to be probably correct, but you never know. there was a more rigorous standard applied to the vaccines than the rest of europe. then the mechanism in europe is i mean, europe is not only the big countries like germany. there is an effort to make certain that all european countries get it. i mean, the estonians and the maltese and the luxembourgers and the bulgarians and whoever had it been everyone against everyone. i think it would have been a disaster. we are all sort of union for all of the europeans. all right. ok, it's that awful mantra coming back again, isn't it? ok, john. perceptions of europe. how does it look like in addis ababa, ethiopia, where you're based? we look at what is going on in europe and we are trying to learn lessons from from that. to learn lessons from that. i think it tells us two things, it's one thing to have vaccines. and then on the other hand, there's another whole dimension of vaccination. and we've always maintained that vaccines without vaccination is no vaccine. so i think that we are focusing on building systems that enable us to roll out vaccines quickly once

we get vaccines available. and as you rightly stated, we are very pleased that ghana could develop nigeria ability to get vaccines to our strategy as africa, cdc and others, is to work with these countries to make sure that the uptake of vaccines is as quickly as possible. learning from what we are seeing from europe. thank you so much. let's go to minsk in belarus, tojohn sweeney. john, your question. my question is, could vaccine i diplomacy foster the emergence of new alliances and or relations that shift geopolitical power? i well, we've heard about vaccine diplomacy, haven't we? john, what do you say about that? i mean, you know, china has been sending vaccines to african countries and other countries in the developing world and russia also with its sputnik v. could they leverage this vaccine diplomacy and really use it as a kind of means of soft power? i think that all efforts to assist

us as a continent to ramp up vaccination will be very, very welcome on the continent. and we should use the word vaccine diplomacy with care, because the issues that we are dealing with, serious issues. there are issues of life and death on the continent of africa. on the continent of africa, more than 104,000 people have died on the continent. so this is not the time for basic diplomacy, which by simple definition is managing a relationship. this is time to step back and solve a challenge, an existential challenge that we have in front of us in a decisive manner so that we can save lives. i think for us as a public health agency we lay emphasis on resolving the critical nature of this pandemic by using vaccine as the game changer to bring it to an end rather than diplomacy. right, well, how would you answer the question thatjohn�*s posed?

could the vaccine diplomacy lead to a shift in geopolitical power, is his question. well, i would very much hope that that is not going to be the case. i mean, there are efforts to see that the different nations, we shouldn't name names who are using it for pr purposes of the deliveries to friends and whatever, that is regrettable. i think we have to see this as an effort by humanity for humanity. it is an unprecedented challenge that all of us face. and i think we should lay politics aside. i mean, we can disagree on all sorts of issues. but in this particular case, and that's why i think that's at least on the european side and those americans on board as well, the us is to set up these covax efforts and the different global mechanisms to make certain it's not bilateral diplomacy is not winning friends and punishing enemies. diplomacy, it's not winning friends and punishing enemies. it is trying to sort of help everyone.

i mean, it's a question of distributing two billion doses of vaccine in a year. it's a tremendous global effort that is underway. but there's a place for altruism, isn't there? i mean, you know, iwill mention china by name because even before the vaccines came on the scene, they were sending shiploads of ppe, personal protective equipment to poorer countries, you know, notjust in africa, but elsewhere and so on. and they surely should be applauded for that. they should be applauded if those are regular deliveries. but when there is too much flag waving, flag waving, not only from chinese side, they see that from the russian side as well, then it invites the suspicion that the primary purpose is not to help, but to gain friends or score points and things like that. and i think that's a time for that. no question about that. but this is not the time for that. all right, john, so both our panellists kind of say, look, this is not the right time to make political capital of supplying countries with personal protective equipment or vaccines and so on. what do you think?

i think it's a bit naive not - to assume that some countries won't try to maximize this - from a soft power perspective, i think as the saying goes, when you invent the ship, | you also invent the shipwreck. and it's very clear that some countries are looking to take advantage of these opportunities and to try to leverage _ further power, - regionally or globally. all right. let's have a question now from bangalore in india. yeah, hi, so my question is, many people mistrust - the coronavirus vaccine, . so if people refuse to take the vaccine, could they end up being discriminated against? i carl, you kick off on that one. a quick answer on that one. if people refuse to take it, should they be discriminated against? kind of domestic vaccine apartheid, as it were. i hope not, but of course, if you look at travelling around europe, i think that will be, for example, a requirement that you can demonstrate that you have a test or vaccine

or something like that. so i will just say that i would encourage everyone to take the vaccine, because that's going to be the best for everyone. all right, john, a lot of suspicion. you look at a poll in nigeria, for instance, something like 30% of people there don't want to take the vaccine. are you worried about discrimination between those who have it and those who don't? i think i would be worried with people that choose not to accept the vaccine because you are not protecting yourself and you're not protecting your loved ones. i think we should know that vaccines are the most important public health tool that we have, vaccines are very safe over the history of infectious diseases. and there's absolutely no reason not to take those vaccines because you are indeed helping yourself and helping others, because we must win this war against covid—19 collectively. final question from toronto, canada, kate mulligan. hi, here's my question. there will be more pandemics. and global health emergencies.

what are we doing now- and what should we be doing to ensure that we have a strong and equitable infrastructure - for future vaccination roll—outs? right. there you go, john. i think that's a very good question. there is clearly going to be other pandemics. and the way we prepare for the next pandemic is to regionalize our efforts, to be able to produce vaccines on each continent, subcontinent. that would mean that there's a deliberate investment of resources to enable and facilitate that kind of manufacturing, both from domestic finance from countries in the region in africa, but also partnerships, deliberate partnerships to transfer technology so that that can be done in a very purposeful manner. without that, we would be in this discussion when the next pandemic does hit. oh, gosh. all right. and carl bildt, we've already had european union leaders talk about an era of pandemics.

so your answer to kate, please. yeah, unfortunately, this is unlikely to be the last pandemic, so we must be better prepared next time. and i think what you will see this year is a number of different topics. there's got to be a panel on the helm of the new zealand prime minister looking at the world health organization. that's got to be a global health summit. that's going to be a couple of european plans. and i think the americans are planning something, the major effort underway to look at the experience of what we have done, what we've succeeded with in the middle of this, what we need to do better in order to set up a global health awareness and preparedness system that is better than the one that we have. i think that we're going to have climate issues this year and we're going to have the global health issues this year. and i hope that this will both lead to better global cooperation on these issues. and a very quick answer from both

of you on this vaccine apartheid of you on this, vaccine apartheid is what we're discussing. does it exist and does it cause you great sorrow? it causes great sorrow, that is vaccine inequity in this particular crisis we are dealing with and which is something that should never have happened, that we need to have a courageous discussion as to how do we avoid this going forward and if we have to be better prepared to face the next pandemic. strong words there from john. sorrow, courageous action needed. yeah, absolutely, but i mean, we should recognize that we are early days. i mean, there were early days, there were millions of people, i mean, millions of people who sufferfrom it and, you know, half a million dead in the us and quarter million in europe. but normally it takes a decade or something like that to get a vaccine. a year ago, these vaccines didn't exist.

we are now in the process of starting to distribute all across the world and we are going to distribute that. but some countries have more than others. that's the point, carl bildt. some countries have many more than others before. others haven't even had their firstjob. and you are from that part of the world which has frankly bought up most of the vaccines that exist. in order to be able to distribute also to others because i mean, the buying capacity has been bigger in the united states and then europe. united states and in europe. and part of that will be used in order to help the other parts of the world. all right. final word to you, kate, on what you've heard. thanks for that. here in canada, we have seen some. lessons learned from our experiences with sars and the h1n1 emergencies, but we've also seen a decay _ in our vigilance over time - and declines in our investment. so i'm very much hopeful and expectant that that l won't happen this time around. that we'll keep this| on the front burner. so we are ready for the next - pandemic in a way that is equitable.

thanks very much indeed, kate, and thank you to my two panellists, john and kenneth from addis ababa, ethiopia, head of the africa centres for disease control, and european statesman carl bildt, former prime minister of sweden. thank you very much indeed. and to my questioners, whojoined us from all corners of the globe. and to you, of course, wherever you're watching or listening, remember global questions is the program that brings is the programme that brings you the trend lines behind the headlines. and if you want to be part of our next programme, thenjust email us on globalquestions@bbc.co.uk. until the next time, from me, zeinab badawi, and the rest of the global questions team, goodbye. the weather isn't too bad out there.

it is a little on the nippy side but it's settled and that is how it's going to stay over the next two or three days. i suspect from wednesday, we will be talking about different things. gales and rain. but until then, the high pressure is with ours. it's quite a cloudy high so admittedly we're not getting that much sunshine. but some of us did on saturday, they are aware some good lengthy sunny spells in a few areas. —— there were some good lengthy sunny spells. but i think as far as tonight is concerned, it is partly cloudy and we are the skies clear and the winds fall light, we'll see our touch of frost. here in the north—west, the winds are blowing out of the south—west, pushing milder air into western scotland. so 5 degrees in stornoway. but you can see much of the country hovering around zero. a touch of frost in a few areas first thing on sunday morning. there will be some sunshine around but generally speaking it is quite a cloudy day and on top of that you can see where the rain is there, across western and northern scotland.

temperatures on sunday averaging around 7—8. on monday, the high pressure still with us, onlyjust. it is a very weak high pressure but it is slipping southwards and it's allowing these weather fronts to sneak in, so i think the northern half of the uk, broadly speaking, will be cloudy on monday. the possibility of some rain into yorkshire. for the midlands southwards, monday should stay dry and there should be some sunshine around as well. and there'll be some sunshine around as well. maybe up to around 11 degrees. tuesday could be quite bright if not sunny. temporarily we'll see drier air coming in from the south ahead of this low pressure. this is the beginning of the unsettled spell of weather heading our way. from wednesday onwards, the current thinking is we'll see a powerful jet stream. this is wednesday here. a powerfuljet stream making a beeline for the uk. quite often powerfuljet streams spin up large areas of low pressure, nasty areas of low pressure. you can see one such area of low

pressure here on the forecast, just south of iceland, but also one approaching ireland. this will almost certainly mean gales around western coasts and quite possibly severe gales. so from wednesday onwards, a big change in the weather pattern it'll turn very unsettled.

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