is to the new broadcasting house is to the right of it at the top of portland place in central london, just above oxford circus, for those of you who have been shopping in central london. that is a building which is perhaps more easily accessed because there is a pedestrian area, which would give you room for a significant number of people. i may be wrong, but my impression is that the police would have been determined to prevent that happening. they formed a line very quickly to restrain the protesters. they were, as i say, a view skirmishes and you can see at the centre of the picture a group of police officers, who appeared to be restraining some of the protesters. it looks like most of the other protesters have quickly melted away. you can see there the pedestrianised area in the centre of the horseshoe. that's in front of the new broadcasting house, and there is the church just blow it with the police vans blocking portland place itself to make sure nobody else can get

through. it looks like the first and so for only significant confrontation of this day of protests, this vigil by those opposed to lockdown. protest has been repulsed by the metropolitan police and we will of course bring you more on that during the course of the next couple of hours here on bbc news. today turned into a dry day for most of us but it has not been sunny anywhere. of us but it has not been sunny anywhere-— of us but it has not been sunny anywhere. best of the sunshine across north-east _ anywhere. best of the sunshine across north-east england - anywhere. best of the sunshine across north-east england and | across north—east england and south—east scotland. that's where we have seen some of the highest temperatures as well. we have also got a frontal system pushing down from the north. it will bring a band of thicker cloud and some spots of rain. it will get quite cold in one or two spots in central and southern scotland for example with temperatures getting all the way down to freezing. tomorrow, is that frontal system clears away, we will

be left with sunshine in many areas. with a slight shift in the wind direction, it will not be as warm as it was today in eastern scotland or north—east england with temperatures at nine to ii north—east england with temperatures at nine to 11 degrees at best. things will change in mid week onwards and it will turn more unsettled with rain at times and some brisk winds. hello, this is bbc news. the headlines... reaching a milestone — half of all adults in the uk have now had a first dose of a coronavirus vaccine. europe braces itself for a third wave of coronavirus infections — with fresh lockdowns in france and poland. protesters opposed to the lockdown gather in central london to march to westminster. scotland yard urge people to stay at home saying london remains in a health crisis. we will bring you more from those protest at the top of the hour.

now on bbc news... social media, anti—social media, breaking news, faking news... this is the programme about a revolution in media with amol rajan, the bbc�*s media editor. hello. what kind of health is british investigative journalism actually in? better than you might think, perhaps because a lot of it is happening away from national titles and being conducted by local journalists, for instance, in manchester. or perhaps it's because a lot of it's being done by specialists who are willing to work for a variety of titles. or maybe because a pandemic being a complex and hopefully once—in—a—century event lends itself to scandal, leaks and whistle—blows. today, we're going to go inside the mechanics of investigative reporting to give you the nuts, the bolts, the fear, the loathing and the legal letters of being a proper investigative hack. let me introduce you to our guests. george arbuthnott is a deputy editor of the sunday times's insight team, jennifer williams is politics and investigations editor

for the manchester evening news and rachel oldroyd is managing editor and ceo of the bureau of investigationjournalism. it's actually the bureau of investigativejournalism, isn't it, rachel? it is. george, let's start with you. over the past year, you've been writing pieces on the sunday times over britain's handling of the pandemic, and your book on this is called failures of state. it's out this week. it features whistle—blowers from within the government and the nhs. how have you gone about cultivating sources during a pandemic? cos presumably, you can't sneak off for a quiet coffee when we're all on zoom, as we are right now. that's right, but in some ways, it's actually been easier because the key is to build up sources within the government and the nhs, and normally, i'm thinking within the government, that if they've got their bosses overseeing them in the office, it's very hard to get a call in to them and have an open conversation but cos everyone's been at home, it's actually been easier

for them to speak freely. what about the pub? i thought sunday times hacks back in the day used to cultivate them in the pub, usually the red line in westminster, wasn't it? you're right, it does often help to meet people in person to build up trust. but actually, just the ability to ring someone up and have a frank conversation with them without them being supervised, it has certainly made a big difference in that respect. jennifer williams from the manchester evening news, i see you're nodding through what george says. yeah, i was, while george was building those contacts in government, i suppose i was building up those contacts in greater manchester. i wasn't a healthjournalist before this, but my contacts were political rather than in the public health system or anywhere like that, so i went through a similar process of building up that contact base. i actually found twitter to be very useful in that respect in terms ofjust having chats with people

over direct messages. i think sometimes people get worried about whether their message can be foid. and they find social media direct messaging feels more comfortable, and i've noticed that with quite a few people over the past year. is that true for sources? if you are in touch with people through the direct message on twitter, it's a safer form of communication? because people often think of whatsapp or signal... i don't think... i think it's more of a psychological thing. people sometimes feel more comfortable having this conversation that way than doing it over text or doing it in another way, and i've noticed it a lot during the pandemic. the other thing is in common with what george was saying. people are sat in front of their laptops and if you just drop them a message on twitter and say, what do you reckon about this? they are sitting ducks, really. no offence to my contacts. maybe bored people are better sources because theyjust really

want to tell people things. you're all nodding! rachel from the bureau, you've had your own stories on covid, but we're also looking at amazon, walmart, facebook and more. how easy has been to interest readers be beyond the pandemic? the news over the last 18 months has been all virus. i think it's notjust all virus. we have had a lot of trump too. we've had a year ofjust insatiable news stories. j it has been difficult to think outside of the virus - and what else is important. there are so many other. important issues and i think going back to sources, - one of the key things that gets people talking is a lot. of anger at the moment, so people are really prepared to talk about things. - one of the key things that we've found is that it is very difficult. in the space to build up trust, so to find these stories - you don't know are out there. stories about the pandemic, - stories about trump's leadership.

they've been easy but the stories you just don't know exist, - i those are the tricky ones in a world. where we're all in remote zoom land. it's the ones you don't know, you don't know. if we're talking about investigative journalism, one of the most respected outlets in the world for blockbuster scoops is the washington post. the last nine years, its editor has been martin baron. he has just retired. i sat down with him earlier this week. it's another bonus interview for the media show listeners on the bbc snds app. -- bbc —— bbc sounds. just look at the media show and click subscribe. it talks about the prizes that the washington post has won and he looks at his time at the boston globe. if you have seen the oscar—winning film, spotlight, you will know about his work there. i'm going to play you a little bit of the interview now because i also asked him about how the washington post funds

their world famous investigations. this is a key question that we are going to talk about soon because investigative journalism is expensive. the post is now in the fortunate position of having a rich owner — his name isjeff bezos. ifjeff bezos hadn't acquired us in 2013, we would have been on the same line as we would have been on previously. we would have been reclining. we would have had fewer resources, staff all of that. i don't think we would have been as powerful as a media force as we became because we achieved commercial success. we were able to achieve stability, reinvest our earnings because jeff bezos does not need the dividends. jeff bezos does not need the dividends. so i think it's made a tremendous difference. where did you and jeff bezos first sit down and discuss the paper's direction? we sat down of the executive team of the post. he made clearfrom the beginning he thought that strategy of being regional may have been

the right strategy for a different era. it made a lot of money over the years, but it wasn't the right strategy for the current era. because we were taking everything the internet had to offer, and... but we weren't taking what he called the gift of the internet. we were a bit mystified as to what that gift was at the time. he explained quite clearly that the gift was worldwide distribution at virtually no additional cost. because of the internet, we don't have to deliver papers everywhere, and he said we have the opportunity to be national and international. because you don't incur additional cost. you're in an ideal position because you're based in the nation's capital, because we have the name the washington post, which is a good name for going national and international, and we had a heritage that was well defined in the public�*s mind.

shining a light in dark corners and holding up and the accountability. i should say you have won plaudits for the way you handled the relationship, but i wonder if you can reflect on whether it's sometimes an uncomfortable place forjournalists to be, being ultimately owned by somebody who has an incentive and seeing their competitors deligated. but he hasn't interfered in ourjournalism at all and i'm grateful for that. i wouldn't want to be there if he had interfered. he thinks the paper should have its independence, it should do itsjob with integrity. not all the stories are favourable and he doesn't command, he doesn't criticise us, he never suppressed a story, he doesn't suggest any stories. and his competitors know we cover them fairly as well. we have full access

to his competitors, regardless of the field. whether it's in retailing or i cloud computing orspace, commercialspace. they know we cover them independently, otherwise they wouldn't talk to us, but they do. that was the outgoing editor of the washington post and you can hear that on the bbc sounds app. by the way, you may have heard about the extended interview from last week. do check out on the podcast. let's pick up on some things mentioned there. marty talked about having the pockets of a billionaire to fund pieces digging into the trump administration. how does it fund its work?

i think the first thing to say is this stuff is expensive. . it takes time, it takes resource, it's risky. . it's a story that is in the public interest. i it's not necessarily- of interest to the public, so, it doesn't necessarily bring you the clicks _ so, it doesn't necessarily bring you the clicks and — so, it doesn't necessarily bring you the clicks and the _ so, it doesn't necessarily bring you the clicks and the audiences. - so, it doesn't necessarily bring you the clicks and the audiences. so, l the clicks and the audiences. so, yes deep— the clicks and the audiences. so, yes deep pockets— the clicks and the audiences. so, yes deep pockets are _ the clicks and the audiences. so, yes deep pockets are needed. i the clicks and the audiences. so, i yes deep pockets are needed. our journalism — yes deep pockets are needed. our journalism is — yes deep pockets are needed. our journalism is philanthropic- yes deep pockets are needed. our journalism is philanthropic leaf- journalism is philanthropic leaf ended~ — journalism is philanthropic leaf ended~ we _ journalism is philanthropic leaf ended. we are _ journalism is philanthropic leaf ended. we are a _ journalism is philanthropic leaf ended. we are a nonprofit - ended. we are a nonprofit organisation. _ ended. we are a nonprofit organisation. we - ended. we are a nonprofit organisation. we get- ended. we are a nonprofit organisation. we get gifts| ended. we are a nonprofit - organisation. we get gifts from individuals_ organisation. we get gifts from individuals and _ organisation. we get gifts from individuals and we _ organisation. we get gifts from individuals and we get - organisation. we get gifts from individuals and we get money. organisation. we get gifts from - individuals and we get money from individual— individuals and we get money from individual donations. _ george, how has the sunday times's team found it? —— how is it funded? -- how is it funded? yes, i mean...

the basis — -- how is it funded? yes, i mean... the basis and _ -- how is it funded? yes, i mean... the basis and business _ -- how is it funded? yes, i mean... the basis and business model- -- how is it funded? yes, i mean... the basis and business model to . -- how is it funded? yes, i mean... l the basis and business model to that is that we rely on people believing in the journalism but we do and that it is worth paying for. we believe that the readers want to pay for investigation and our first coronavirus three about how boris johnson missed the... that's fascinating. how do you know that? you publish that story on the sunday and then how do you know that those thousands were the people who like a story? our understanding was that people clicked of the story and they were going to read it. they try to click

on the story and then they clicked subscribe on the story and then they can read it. so, you can kind of see directly where those clicks come from and where do they come from. that must be very encouraging for you as a journalist. having a direct relationship with the reader and their pocket. it relationship with the reader and their pocket-— relationship with the reader and their ocket. . , ., ., . , their pocket. it was extraordinary. it was unprecedented _ their pocket. it was extraordinary. it was unprecedented in _ their pocket. it was extraordinary. it was unprecedented in terms - their pocket. it was extraordinary. it was unprecedented in terms ofl their pocket. it was extraordinary. i it was unprecedented in terms of my time... it had something like 1.5 million views. this is the most that the financial times has ever had on the financial times has ever had on the article in its history —— the sunday times. the article in its history -- the sunday times.— the article in its history -- the sunday times. you work for the manchester _ sunday times. you work for the manchester evening _ sunday times. you work for the manchester evening news. - sunday times. you work for the j manchester evening news. how sunday times. you work for the i manchester evening news. how do sunday times. you work for the - manchester evening news. how do they cover the cost of a long—running investigation because your stories do not rely on payroll? my investigation because your stories do not rely on payroll?— investigation because your stories do not rely on payroll? my “0b is a

h brid do not rely on payroll? my “0b is a hybrid job. — do not rely on payroll? my “0b is a hybrid job. i— do not rely on payroll? my “0b is a hybrid job. i still* do not rely on payroll? my “0b is a hybrid job. i still write _ do not rely on payroll? my job is a hybrid job. i still write news - hybrid job. i still write news stories— hybrid job. i still write news stories in— hybrid job. i still write news stories in between working in the background on investigation and that works_ background on investigation and that works for— background on investigation and that works for me because it means that i can keep _ works for me because it means that i can keep my— works for me because it means that i can keep my hand in and keep an eye onwhat— can keep my hand in and keep an eye on what is— can keep my hand in and keep an eye on what is going on. i am not necessarily— on what is going on. i am not necessarily taking two months out to slowly _ necessarily taking two months out to slowly work on an investigation. it is not _ slowly work on an investigation. it is not as— slowly work on an investigation. it is not as resource intensive as that — is not as resource intensive as that i— is not as resource intensive as that. i think there's a slight misconception that heavier weight for want _ misconception that heavier weight for want of a better phrase in journalism doesn't get an audience ontihe _ journalism doesn't get an audience ontihe i_ journalism doesn't get an audience online. i think in the early days there _ online. i think in the early days there was— online. i think in the early days there was an assumption that was made _ there was an assumption that was made that— there was an assumption that was made that said that people only want to read _ made that said that people only want to read stories about... they don't necessarily— to read stories about... they don't necessarily want to read stories about _ necessarily want to read stories about politics or something heavier. we have _ about politics or something heavier. we have learned that that is not necessarily the case. one of the things— necessarily the case. one of the things that we have tried to do a lot in— things that we have tried to do a lot in the — things that we have tried to do a lot in the last five years or so in the manchester evening news is to play around with how we present them stories— play around with how we present them stories and _ play around with how we present them stories and how we tell the stories and headlined them is and put them

on social— and headlined them is and put them on social media and the importance of pictures— on social media and the importance of pictures and good quality pictures— of pictures and good quality pictures are still important online 'ust pictures are still important online just as _ pictures are still important online just as much as it was on print and we have _ just as much as it was on print and we have found that that audience is there _ we have found that that audience is there in— we have found that that audience is there in that content. don't get me wrong _ there in that content. don't get me wrong be — there in that content. don't get me wrong. be really high volume content isn't going _ wrong. be really high volume content isn't going to be my staff but that isn't going to be my staff but that is hot _ isn't going to be my staff but that is hot to— isn't going to be my staff but that is not to say that there is only one man— is not to say that there is only one man reading it. i think to some extent, — man reading it. i think to some extent, although it is cross subsidised... it does actually get red and — subsidised... it does actually get red and i— subsidised... it does actually get red and i think that is quite an important _ red and i think that is quite an important point because there is an assumption that it does not get red online _ assumption that it does not get red online. , ., , ., , ~ online. there is a story knocking about. i don't _ online. there is a story knocking about. i don't want _ online. there is a story knocking about. i don't want to _ online. there is a story knocking about. i don't want to miss - about. i don't want to miss misrepresent... i don't want to miss the daily telegraph, but there was a story suggesting there were some moves within the data paying journalist... what do you think of the idea

ofjournalists being paid by amount of people reading the story? i don't feel comfortable with it. i think there's an equilibrium there~ — when you pick up a print newspaper, people picked up newspapers for a mixture of different things. they wanted sports coverage, etc. and it's part of the wider offer that you're giving to your audience. if you say actually, only this part works, they think you're doing a disservice to people. let's get into some of the stories. george, i want to go through some of the nitty—gritty. you've written that government advisers drop a covid—19 triage —— government advisers drew up a covid—19 triage score. it caused a

huge row when you first publish the story. how many sources did you need to run a claim like that? we story. how many sources did you need to run a claim like that?— to run a claim like that? we had documentary — to run a claim like that? we had documentary evidence - to run a claim like that? we had documentary evidence from - to run a claim like that? we had documentary evidence from the | documentary evidence from the government committee that drew it up. we found the actual documents online and we went to several members of that committee and they were probably at least five or six of them and they confirmed that that wasn't the document that had been discussed and then we spoke to numerous doctors and hospitals, who confirmed that they had received a document and that it had indeed been used within hospitals to exclude elderly people and people who are frail from elderly people and people who are frailfrom receiving intensive care. 0k. what frailfrom receiving intensive care. ok. what pushback did you get and from whom? brute ok. what pushback did you get and from whom?— 0k. what pushback did you get and from whom? ~ ., ., , , . ,, from whom? we got a huge pushback from whom? we got a huge pushback from the nhs — from whom? we got a huge pushback from the nhs press _ from whom? we got a huge pushback from the nhs press office, _ from whom? we got a huge pushback from the nhs press office, who - from whom? we got a huge pushback from the nhs press office, who said l from the nhs press office, who said that everybody had received the care that everybody had received the care that they needed and the nhs had not

been overwhelmed.— been overwhelmed. writes, so the --eole been overwhelmed. writes, so the pebble who _ been overwhelmed. writes, so the people who aren't _ been overwhelmed. writes, so the people who aren't journalists, - been overwhelmed. writes, so the people who aren't journalists, you| people who aren'tjournalists, you have a claim and you have documentary evidence, what happens next? we documentary evidence, what happens next? ~ ., ., ., next? we look back at what we have not and next? we look back at what we have got and compared _ next? we look back at what we have got and compared it _ next? we look back at what we have got and compared it to _ next? we look back at what we have got and compared it to the - next? we look back at what we have got and compared it to the evidence | got and compared it to the evidence that we had, the documentation and the testimonies of the doctors on the testimonies of the doctors on the ground and we compare it to the statement and it was clear that we did not believe that what the nhs press office were saying was true in any sense but we ran our evidence and then carried on and the readers decide who they believe. did and then carried on and the readers decide who they believe.— decide who they believe. did they come back to _ decide who they believe. did they come back to you _ decide who they believe. did they come back to you again _ decide who they believe. did they come back to you again and - decide who they believe. did they come back to you again and say i decide who they believe. did they i come back to you again and say that they were going to change their relationship with you? was there any further pushback? ihla. relationship with you? was there any further pushback?— further pushback? no. there was tension between _ further pushback? no. there was tension between us _ further pushback? no. there was tension between us and - further pushback? no. there was tension between us and the - further pushback? no. there wasj tension between us and the nhs. whenever insight does a story which talks about the stresses on the nhs,

we have a very tense exchange. sure. you have soured _ we have a very tense exchange. sure. you have soured relations. _ we have a very tense exchange. sure. you have soured relations. rachel, one of the big tools is the freedom of information request. the bureau announced a big victory today. you call this an investigative victory —— a victory for investigative journalism. -- a victory for investigative journalism-— -- a victory for investigative 'ournalism. ~ . , journalism. we have been digging into council— journalism. we have been digging into council finances _ journalism. we have been digging into council finances for _ journalism. we have been digging into council finances for over - journalism. we have been digging into council finances for over two | into council finances for over two years _ into council finances for over two years it — into council finances for over two years it has _ into council finances for over two years. it has been _ into council finances for over two years. it has been a _ into council finances for over two years. it has been a very- into council finances for over two i years. it has been a very stretched area~ _ years. it has been a very stretched area~ councits— years. it has been a very stretched area. councils as _ years. it has been a very stretched area. councils as a _ years. it has been a very stretched area. councils as a result - years. it has been a very stretched area. councils as a result have - years. it has been a very stretched i area. councils as a result have been trying _ area. councils as a result have been trying to— area. councils as a result have been trying to find — area. councils as a result have been trying to find other _ area. councils as a result have been trying to find other means _ area. councils as a result have been trying to find other means of- trying to find other means of increasing _ trying to find other means of increasing their— trying to find other means of increasing their friends - trying to find other means of increasing their friends and i trying to find other means of. increasing their friends and one trying to find other means of- increasing their friends and one of the things— increasing their friends and one of the things that _ increasing their friends and one of the things that they— increasing their friends and one of the things that they have - increasing their friends and one of the things that they have been - increasing their friends and one of. the things that they have been doing is investing — the things that they have been doing is investing in — the things that they have been doing is investing in commercial— the things that they have been doing is investing in commercial property, | is investing in commercial property, office _ is investing in commercial property, office buildings, _ is investing in commercial property, office buildings, retail— is investing in commercial property, office buildings, retail spaces... - office buildings, retail spaces... in office buildings, retail spaces... in digging — office buildings, retail spaces... in digging into— office buildings, retail spaces... in digging into that _ office buildings, retail spaces... in digging into that area, - office buildings, retail spaces... in digging into that area, we - in digging into that area, we discovered _ in digging into that area, we discovered that— in digging into that area, we discovered that a _ in digging into that area, we discovered that a very - in digging into that area, we discovered that a very odd . in digging into that area, we - discovered that a very odd things seem _ discovered that a very odd things seem to — discovered that a very odd things seem to be — discovered that a very odd things seem to be happening. _ discovered that a very odd things seem to be happening. 150 - discovered that a very odd things i seem to be happening. 150 councils were blending — seem to be happening. 150 councils were blending many— seem to be happening. 150 councils were blending many to _ seem to be happening. 150 councils were blending many to a _ seem to be happening. 150 councils were blending many to a small- were blending many to a small council— were blending many to a small council in — were blending many to a small council in essex, _ were blending many to a small council in essex, which - were blending many to a small council in essex, which has - were blending many to a small council in essex, which has a l were blending many to a small- council in essex, which has a fairly small— council in essex, which has a fairly

small budget _ council in essex, which has a fairly small budget each _ council in essex, which has a fairly small budget each year _ council in essex, which has a fairly small budget each year and - council in essex, which has a fairly small budget each year and we - council in essex, which has a fairly. small budget each year and we were quite curious — small budget each year and we were quite curious. we _ small budget each year and we were quite curious. we wanted _ small budget each year and we were quite curious. we wanted to- small budget each year and we were quite curious. we wanted to know. small budget each year and we were l quite curious. we wanted to know why they were _ quite curious. we wanted to know why they were borrowing _ quite curious. we wanted to know why they were borrowing so _ quite curious. we wanted to know why they were borrowing so much- quite curious. we wanted to know why they were borrowing so much money. | they were borrowing so much money. we hadm _ they were borrowing so much money. we hadm whv— they were borrowing so much money. we had... why they— they were borrowing so much money. we had... why they were _ they were borrowing so much money. we had... why they were borrowing l they were borrowing so much money. i we had... why they were borrowing so much _ we had... why they were borrowing so much money— we had... why they were borrowing so much money from _ we had... why they were borrowing so much money from other— we had... why they were borrowing so much money from other councils? - we had... why they were borrowing so much money from other councils? wei much money from other councils? we read through — much money from other councils? we read through guite _ much money from other councils? we read through quite a _ much money from other councils? we read through quite a lot _ much money from other councils? we read through quite a lot of _ much money from other councils? we read through quite a lot of the - read through quite a lot of the council— read through quite a lot of the council minutes— read through quite a lot of the council minutes and _ read through quite a lot of the council minutes and we - read through quite a lot of the council minutes and we spoke| read through quite a lot of the . council minutes and we spoke to councittors — council minutes and we spoke to councittors and _ council minutes and we spoke to councillors and we _ council minutes and we spoke to councillors and we couldn't - council minutes and we spoke to councillors and we couldn't work| council minutes and we spoke to - councillors and we couldn't work out what the _ councillors and we couldn't work out what the problem _ councillors and we couldn't work out what the problem was. _ councillors and we couldn't work out what the problem was. and - councillors and we couldn't work out what the problem was. and then - councillors and we couldn't work out what the problem was. and then wej what the problem was. and then we started _ what the problem was. and then we started to _ what the problem was. and then we started to foia _ what the problem was. and then we started to foia the _ what the problem was. and then we started to foia the other— what the problem was. and then we started to foia the other councils . started to foia the other councils who had _ started to foia the other councils who had tent _ started to foia the other councils who had lent the _ started to foia the other councils who had lent the money. - started to foia the other councils who had lent the money. after. started to foia the other councils - who had lent the money. after months of working _ who had lent the money. after months of working on— who had lent the money. after months of working on this, _ who had lent the money. after months of working on this, and _ who had lent the money. after months of working on this, and getting - of working on this, and getting documents _ of working on this, and getting documents from _ of working on this, and getting documents from many - of working on this, and getting documents from many other. of working on this, and getting - documents from many other councils, it transpired _ documents from many other councils, it transpired that _ documents from many other councils, it transpired that they— documents from many other councils, it transpired that they had _ documents from many other councils, it transpired that they had been - it transpired that they had been investing — it transpired that they had been investing a _ it transpired that they had been investing a lot _ it transpired that they had been investing a lot of— it transpired that they had been investing a lot of money- it transpired that they had been investing a lot of money in- it transpired that they had been. investing a lot of money in green energy— investing a lot of money in green energy and — investing a lot of money in green energvand in— investing a lot of money in green energy and in particular, - investing a lot of money in green energy and in particular, they. investing a lot of money in greenl energy and in particular, they had invested — energy and in particular, they had invested over— energy and in particular, they had invested over £400 _ energy and in particular, they had invested over £400 million - energy and in particular, they had invested over £400 million into. energy and in particular, they had . invested over £400 million into one vehicle _ invested over £400 million into one vehicle and — invested over £400 million into one vehicle and this _ invested over £400 million into one vehicle and this seemed _ invested over £400 million into one vehicle and this seemed quite - invested over £400 million into one vehicle and this seemed quite riskyl vehicle and this seemed quite risky to us, _ vehicle and this seemed quite risky to us, so— vehicle and this seemed quite risky to us, so we — vehicle and this seemed quite risky to us, so we went _ vehicle and this seemed quite risky to us, so we went to—

vehicle and this seemed quite risky to us, so we went to ask _ vehicle and this seemed quite risky to us, so we went to ask thurrockl to us, so we went to ask thurrock about— to us, so we went to ask thurrock about their— to us, so we went to ask thurrock about their other— to us, so we went to ask thurrock about their other investments - to us, so we went to ask thurrock| about their other investments and to us, so we went to ask thurrock- about their other investments and we asked _ about their other investments and we asked them _ about their other investments and we asked them if— about their other investments and we asked them if they _ about their other investments and we asked them if they could _ about their other investments and we asked them if they could confirm - about their other investments and we asked them if they could confirm the| asked them if they could confirm the investments — asked them if they could confirm the investments that— asked them if they could confirm the investments that we _ asked them if they could confirm the investments that we had _ asked them if they could confirm the investments that we had found - asked them if they could confirm the| investments that we had found small pieces— investments that we had found small pieces of— investments that we had found small pieces of the — investments that we had found small pieces of the puzzle _ investments that we had found small pieces of the puzzle along _ investments that we had found small pieces of the puzzle along the - investments that we had found small pieces of the puzzle along the way. l pieces of the puzzle along the way. they basicattv— pieces of the puzzle along the way. they basically said, _ pieces of the puzzle along the way. they basically said, no. _ pieces of the puzzle along the way. they basically said, no. so - pieces of the puzzle along the way. they basically said, no. so we - they basically said, no. so we reguested _ they basically said, no. so we requested freedom _ they basically said, no. so we requested freedom of- they basically said, no. so we - requested freedom of information and we did _ requested freedom of information and we did not— requested freedom of information and we did not get— requested freedom of information and we did not get the _ requested freedom of information and we did not get the response. - we did not get the response. eventuattv. _ we did not get the response. eventually, we _ we did not get the response. eventually, we had - we did not get the response. eventually, we had to - we did not get the response. eventually, we had to take . we did not get the response. eventually, we had to take itj we did not get the response. i eventually, we had to take it all the way — eventually, we had to take it all the way up _ eventually, we had to take it all the way up to— eventually, we had to take it all the way up to the _ eventually, we had to take it all the way up to the tribunal. - eventually, we had to take it all the way up to the tribunal. so, i eventually, we had to take it all the way up to the tribunal. so, who is -a in: the way up to the tribunal. so, who is paying for— the way up to the tribunal. so, who is paying for all— the way up to the tribunal. so, who is paying for all of— the way up to the tribunal. so, who is paying for all of this? _ the way up to the tribunal. so, who is paying for all of this? is - the way up to the tribunal. so, who is paying for all of this? is it - the way up to the tribunal. so, who is paying for all of this? is it out. is paying for all of this? is it out of a central pot that the bureau has got? of a central pot that the bureau has not? , , of a central pot that the bureau has tot? , , , of a central pot that the bureau has ot? , , , , got? yes, it is being funded. this is two years _ got? yes, it is being funded. this is two years worth _ got? yes, it is being funded. this is two years worth of _ got? yes, it is being funded. this is two years worth of work - got? yes, it is being funded. this is two years worth of work on - got? yes, it is being funded. this is two years worth of work on one reporter— is two years worth of work on one reporter was _ is two years worth of work on one reporter was mac— is two years worth of work on one reporter was mac part. _ is two years worth of work on one reporter was mac part. we - is two years worth of work on one reporter was mac part. we had i is two years worth of work on one reporter was mac part. we had to is two years worth of work on one - reporter was mac part. we had to pay for lawyers _ reporter was mac part. we had to pay for lawyers in — reporter was mac part. we had to pay for lawyers in our— reporter was mac part. we had to pay for lawyers in our case _ reporter was mac part. we had to pay for lawyers in our case in _ reporter was mac part. we had to pay for lawyers in our case in the - for lawyers in our case in the tribunat _ for lawyers in our case in the tribunal. ., ., for lawyers in our case in the tribunal-— for lawyers in our case in the tribunal. ., ., ., ., , ' :: :: tribunal. you are edging towards 100 rand with tribunal. you are edging towards 100 grand with other— tribunal. you are edging towards 100 grand with other on _ tribunal. you are edging towards 100 grand with other on costs? _ tribunal. you are edging towards 100 grand with other on costs? we - tribunal. you are edging towards 100 grand with other on costs? we havel grand with other on costs? we have had lots of stories _ grand with other on costs? we have had lots of stories out _ grand with other on costs? we have had lots of stories out of _ grand with other on costs? we have had lots of stories out of it - grand with other on costs? we have had lots of stories out of it as - had lots of stories out of it as wett~ — had lots of stories out of it as well. ,, ., ., had lots of stories out of it as well, ,, ., ., ., had lots of stories out of it as well. ,, ., ., ., ., had lots of stories out of it as well. ,, ., ., . ., ., ., well. show. you are not waiting for the one. well. show. you are not waiting for the one- i — well. show. you are not waiting for the one. i understand _ well. show. you are not waiting for the one. i understand that - well. show. you are not waiting for the one. i understand that it - well. show. you are not waiting for the one. i understand that it is - the one. i understand that it is getting harder to use foi requests.

what do you make of this? open. getting harder to use foi requests. what do you make of this?- what do you make of this? well, i think it is a _ what do you make of this? well, i think it is a huge _ what do you make of this? well, i think it is a huge problem. - what do you make of this? well, i think it is a huge problem. i- what do you make of this? well, i think it is a huge problem. i think| think it is a huge problem. i think our access— think it is a huge problem. i think our access to _ think it is a huge problem. i think our access to information... - think it is a huge problem. i think our access to information... thisl think it is a huge problem. i think. our access to information... this is decisions _ our access to information... this is decisions and — our access to information... this is decisions and money _ our access to information... this is decisions and money that - our access to information... this is decisions and money that has - our access to information... this isj decisions and money that has been spent _ decisions and money that has been spent on _ decisions and money that has been spent on our— decisions and money that has been spent on our part— decisions and money that has been spent on our part as _ decisions and money that has been spent on our part as journalists, i decisions and money that has been| spent on our part as journalists, we should _ spent on our part as journalists, we should be _ spent on our part as journalists, we should be able _ spent on our part as journalists, we should be able to _ spent on our part as journalists, we should be able to have _ spent on our part as journalists, we should be able to have access - spent on our part as journalists, we should be able to have access to i should be able to have access to this but— should be able to have access to this but the _ should be able to have access to this but the public— should be able to have access to this but the public should - should be able to have access to this but the public should be - should be able to have access tol this but the public should be able to have _ this but the public should be able to have access _ this but the public should be able to have access to _ this but the public should be able to have access to this _ this but the public should be able to have access to this as - this but the public should be able to have access to this as well. - this but the public should be able i to have access to this as well. the freedom — to have access to this as well. the freedom of— to have access to this as well. the freedom of information _ to have access to this as well. the freedom of information act - to have access to this as well. the freedom of information act is - to have access to this as well. the freedom of information act is a i to have access to this as well. the . freedom of information act is a very powerful— freedom of information act is a very powerful tool — freedom of information act is a very powerful tool but _ freedom of information act is a very powerful tool but it _ freedom of information act is a very powerful tool but it has _ freedom of information act is a very powerful tool but it has been- powerful tool but it has been increasingly— powerful tool but it has been increasingly pushed - powerful tool but it has been increasingly pushed back- powerful tool but it has been increasingly pushed back on. powerful tool but it has been. increasingly pushed back on. it powerful tool but it has been- increasingly pushed back on. it has been _ increasingly pushed back on. it has been pushed — increasingly pushed back on. it has been pushed back— increasingly pushed back on. it has been pushed back on _ increasingly pushed back on. it has been pushed back on as _ increasingly pushed back on. it has been pushed back on as our- increasingly pushed back on. it has been pushed back on as our case . been pushed back on as our case showed — been pushed back on as our case showed by— been pushed back on as our case showed by commercial— been pushed back on as our case i showed by commercial interests. been pushed back on as our case - showed by commercial interests. more and more _ showed by commercial interests. more and more private — showed by commercial interests. more and more private companies _ showed by commercial interests. more and more private companies are - and more private companies are involved — and more private companies are involved in— and more private companies are involved in the _ and more private companies are involved in the sector— and more private companies are involved in the sector and - and more private companies are involved in the sector and in - and more private companies are involved in the sector and in the act, _ involved in the sector and in the act, councils— involved in the sector and in the act, councils and _ involved in the sector and in the act, councils and governments i involved in the sector and in the - act, councils and governments don't have to _ act, councils and governments don't have to reveal— act, councils and governments don't have to reveal information - act, councils and governments don't have to reveal information about - have to reveal information about private _ have to reveal information about private companies _ have to reveal information about private companies and _ have to reveal information about private companies and that - have to reveal information about private companies and that is . have to reveal information about . private companies and that is what our case _ private companies and that is what our case was — private companies and that is what our case was trying _ private companies and that is what our case was trying to _ private companies and that is what our case was trying to get - private companies and that is what our case was trying to get out. - private companies and that is what our case was trying to get out. we | our case was trying to get out. we now have _ our case was trying to get out. we now have access — our case was trying to get out. we now have access to _ our case was trying to get out. we now have access to information i our case was trying to get out. we i now have access to information about council _ now have access to information about council investments. _ now have access to information about council investments.— council investments. jennifer, you have been — council investments. jennifer, you have been tweeting _ council investments. jennifer, you have been tweeting at _

council investments. jennifer, you have been tweeting at the - council investments. jennifer, you l have been tweeting at the weekend about greater manchester police who failed to record 80,000 crimes in a 12 month period. what do you make about this change to foi and its utility to investigative journalists like you? i utility to investigative 'ournalists like ou? ., , like you? i tend to find the foi is uuite like you? i tend to find the foi is quite difficult _ like you? i tend to find the foi is quite difficult to _ like you? i tend to find the foi is quite difficult to use _ like you? i tend to find the foi is quite difficult to use even - like you? i tend to find the foi is quite difficult to use even at - like you? i tend to find the foi is quite difficult to use even at the | quite difficult to use even at the best of— quite difficult to use even at the best of times but during the pandemic, the law has changed so that it _ pandemic, the law has changed so that it was — pandemic, the law has changed so that it was much easier for organisations to say that they can't answer— organisations to say that they can't answer the — organisations to say that they can't answer the foi at the moment because they have _ answer the foi at the moment because they have got the pandemic going on. it they have got the pandemic going on. it has _ they have got the pandemic going on. it has made _ they have got the pandemic going on. it has made it extra hard. i think the other— it has made it extra hard. i think the other thing that strikes me about— the other thing that strikes me about the foi is that when you have organisations that are repeated offenders and a really bad at answering them, there never seems to be much _ answering them, there never seems to be much in _ answering them, there never seems to be much in the way of consequences. there _ be much in the way of consequences. there are _ be much in the way of consequences. there are organisations that are very bad — there are organisations that are very bad at answering them and there are a great— very bad at answering them and there are a great many ways that they can try and _ are a great many ways that they can try and wriggle out as providing you with that _ try and wriggle out as providing you with that information and i completely agree, the more private sector— completely agree, the more private sector involvement there is in the public— sector involvement there is in the public sector, the harder it becomes because _ public sector, the harder it becomes because you are more likely to be able to— because you are more likely to be able to use — because you are more likely to be able to use confidentiality as a way

of avoiding — able to use confidentiality as a way of avoiding providing that information. as max george, the government pushed back against the first of— government pushed back against the first of your big pandemic stories last year — first of your big pandemic stories last ear. , ., first of your big pandemic stories last ear. , . . , ., last year. they had a blog challenging _ last year. they had a blog challenging some - last year. they had a blog challenging some of - last year. they had a blog challenging some of your| challenging some of your conclusions. what was going on there? i conclusions. what was going on there? ~ conclusions. what was going on there? ,, . , , conclusions. what was going on there? ,, . ,, ., . there? i think it happened once before when — there? i think it happened once before when the _ there? i think it happened once before when the financial- there? i think it happened once| before when the financial times wrote a piece about the ventilators shortages but whenever a piece in those early days seem to be critical of the government they had a tactic of the government they had a tactic of putting out a blog. when we went through the blog it was quite it extraordinary. it was deeply misleading. one of the examples is that they were trying to give evidence that the experts hadn't been warning injanuary evidence that the experts hadn't been warning in january that the pandemic was serious. but when we went to the scientists to ask if they would comment on this, they described it as selective quotation and they were hugely critical of it. why who is behind that? that is a

really weird thing for the government to be doing this? or do you think is behind it? we were told that they had this unit that was set up. and itjust seemed extraordinary that they were diverting so much resource to trying to, sort of, devalue a piece of investigative journalism that turned out to be completely accurate.— journalism that turned out to be completely accurate. rachel, this is somethina completely accurate. rachel, this is something that _ completely accurate. rachel, this is something that the _ completely accurate. rachel, this is something that the governments i completely accurate. rachel, this is | something that the governments are starting to do more of. we have seen with boris johnson starting to do more of. we have seen with borisjohnson and the chancellor, rishi sunak, we see photographers replaced by their own selective people, you do find that there is something about technology in our pockets that has given the government a sense that they should control the message much more? governments, big companies, the amount— governments, big companies, the amount of— governments, big companies, the amount of people _ governments, big companies, the amount of people that _ governments, big companies, the l amount of people that governments employ— amount of people that governments employ now— amount of people that governments employ now to _ amount of people that governments employ now to get _ amount of people that governments

employ now to get their— amount of people that governments employ now to get their messages i employ now to get their messages out, pr_ employ now to get their messages out, pr companies... _ employ now to get their messages out, pr companies... there - employ now to get their messages out, pr companies... there are i out, pr companies... there are something _ out, pr companies... there are something like _ out, pr companies... there are something like three _ out, pr companies... there are something like three pr- out, pr companies... there are something like three pr peoplej out, pr companies... there are . something like three pr people to every— something like three pr people to every one — something like three pr people to every one journalist. _ something like three pr people to every one journalist. we - something like three pr people to every one journalist. we are - every one journalist. we are fighting _ every one journalist. we are fighting a _ every one journalist. we are fighting a huge _ every one journalist. we are fighting a huge barrage - every one journalist. we are fighting a huge barrage of. every one journalist. we arel fighting a huge barrage of pr every one journalist. we are - fighting a huge barrage of pr and lawyers — fighting a huge barrage of pr and lawyers the _ fighting a huge barrage of pr and lawyers. the amount _ fighting a huge barrage of pr and lawyers. the amount of - fighting a huge barrage of pr and lawyers. the amount of legal - fighting a huge barrage of pr and i lawyers. the amount of legal letters that we _ lawyers. the amount of legal letters that we get — lawyers. the amount of legal letters that we get in. — lawyers. the amount of legal letters that we get in, not— lawyers. the amount of legal letters that we get in, notjust _ lawyers. the amount of legal letters that we get in, notjust on _ lawyers. the amount of legal letters that we get in, notjust on the - lawyers. the amount of legal letters that we get in, notjust on the part. that we get in, notjust on the part of private — that we get in, notjust on the part of private companies _ that we get in, notjust on the part of private companies but _ that we get in, notjust on the part of private companies but on - that we get in, notjust on the part of private companies but on the i that we get in, notjust on the part. of private companies but on the part of private companies but on the part of government — of private companies but on the part of government to. _ of private companies but on the part of government to. they _ of private companies but on the part of government to. they will - of private companies but on the part of government to. they will redact l of government to. they will redact documents — of government to. they will redact documents and _ of government to. they will redact documents and they— of government to. they will redact documents and they will— of government to. they will redact documents and they will say- of government to. they will redact documents and they will say that i of government to. they will redact . documents and they will say that you get _ documents and they will say that you get you _ documents and they will say that you get you will— documents and they will say that you get you will get— documents and they will say that you get... you will get so— documents and they will say that you get... you will get so much- documents and they will say that you | get... you will get so much pushback and you _ get... you will get so much pushback and you will— get... you will get so much pushback and you will get — get... you will get so much pushback and you will get so _ get... you will get so much pushback and you will get so much _ get... you will get so much pushback and you will get so much people - get... you will get so much pushback and you will get so much people are. and you will get so much people are denving _ and you will get so much people are denving what — and you will get so much people are denying what you _ and you will get so much people are denying what you have _ and you will get so much people are denying what you have said. - and you will get so much people are denying what you have said. the - and you will get so much people are . denying what you have said. the army trving _ denying what you have said. the army trying to _ denying what you have said. the army trying to push— denying what you have said. the army trying to push back— denying what you have said. the army trying to push back on _ denying what you have said. the army trying to push back on investigative i trying to push back on investigative journalism — trying to push back on investigative journalism is — trying to push back on investigative journalism isjust_ trying to push back on investigative journalism isjust growing. - trying to push back on investigative journalism isjust growing. [it- trying to push back on investigative journalism isjust growing. [it is - trying to push back on investigative journalism isjust growing. [it is a i journalism is 'ust growing. it is a sub'ect journalism is 'ust growing. it is a subject close— journalism isjust growing. it is a subject close to _ journalism isjust growing. it is a subject close to my _ journalism isjust growing. it is a subject close to my heart. - journalism isjust growing. it is a subject close to my heart. jen, l subject close to my heart. jen, advice to people who want to become journalists? advice to people who want to become 'ournalists? ~ ., ~ advice to people who want to become 'ournalists? ,, _, . ,, advice to people who want to become 'ournalists? ,, . ,, ., journalists? make contact. talk to them, journalists? make contact. talk to them. build _ journalists? make contact. talk to them, build relationships- journalists? make contact. talk to them, build relationships to - journalists? make contact. talk to them, build relationships to it - journalists? make contact. talk toj them, build relationships to it and when _ them, build relationships to it and when you — them, build relationships to it and when you can, take them to the pub. thank— when you can, take them to the pub. thank you _ when you can, take them to the pub. thank you all— when you can, take them to the pub. thank you all very much indeed. thank you all very much indeed. thank you all very much indeed. thank you so much to all of our guests. rachel oldroyd, jennifer

williams and george arbuthnot. earlier, we heard from martin baron who is the former editor of the washington post. thank you for watching.

this is bbc news, the headlines at 5: reaching a milestone — half of all adults in the uk have now had a first dose of a coronavirus vaccine. the vaccination programme is our route out of the pandemic. it will help us to protect people, and we know that these vaccines protect you, and they also protect those around you. europe braces itself for a third wave of coronavirus infections, with fresh lockdowns in france and poland. protesters opposed to the coronavirus lockdown march through central london. scotland yard says london remains in a health crisis, and urge people to stay at home. and coming up in half an hour, highlights from this year's bbc young reporter competition.

we hear from some of the young people reporting for bbc news.