hello, i'm shaun ley. welcome to the programme which brings together uk commentators, bbc specialists and foreign correspondents who file their stories for audiences at home, dateline london. this weekend, as christians celebrate easter and renewal, we're devoting the programme to one theme — after the pandemic can we renew our world? and is reconciliation possible when people in much of it seem so angry? to try to answer that are catherine pepinster, the first woman to edit the tablet,

the international catholic newspaper. michael goldberg, veteran foreign correspondent for us public radio. his podcast frdh is inspired by the ambition ofjournalism as the first rough draft of history. and in the studio, the bbc broadcaster and china specialist, vincent nee. welcome to all of you, it is good to have you with us this easter weekend. pope francis, who delivers his easter message for a second year from inside the basilica rather than to the thousands of catholics who gather most years in st peter's square, practised what he preaches when, last month, he made the first ever papal visit to iraq. he was seeking not only to reconcile christianity and islam but also to inspire muslims to heal the division within their faith. yet faith is weaponised in conflicts around the world, used, if you'll pardon the expression, to demonise minorities. china, this weekend marking qingming, the tomb sweeping

festival, stands accused ofjustifying conversion and supression of uighers on the grounds of their faith, islam. it now permits catholics to worship. is that reconciliation or has the vatican been co—opted to beijing's cause? how credible is reconciliation in brazil or the united states, where politics is now so polarised, and, perhaps not coincidentally, so ineffectual? in a global pandemic, which we're all in together, why are we so angry with each other, especially when it's manifestly not in our own best interest? catherine pepinster, let's start with the pope. this visit to iraq was on a personal level in terms of his own safety, quite a big risk to run, it is the first time a pope has been to iraq, even though it is one of the countries of one of the birthplaces of christianity. it had quite a message designed to resonate beyond that one country? yes. quite a message designed to resonate beyond that one country?— beyond that one country? yes, you are absolutely _ beyond that one country? yes, you are absolutely right. _ beyond that one country? yes, you are absolutely right. this _ beyond that one country? yes, you are absolutely right. this was - beyond that one country? yes, you

are absolutely right. this was an i are absolutely right. this was an historic occasion for the pope to go to iraq but he was committed to trying to get it organised and he wanted to take that message of reconciliation. reconciliation is a word that has come up time and time again throughout the eight years francis has been pope. i think if you look at his writings, when he mentions reconciliation, he always mentions reconciliation, he always mentions dialogue. that reconciliation means you have to talk to people. you have to find ways through your differences. he was also keen in that visit to show his solidarity with the christian minorities who have had such a terrible time in recent years. but alongside solidarity with one particular group, he is saying you have got to talk to the other side, as it were, as well, you have got to have that encounter. i think it is something we see such a lack of at

the moment in our world. you mentioned some of the world in your introduction where this is such a problem. we have also seen in places in the past, such as in south africa and northern ireland, that reconciliation and dialogue can make a difference. reconciliation and dialogue can make a difference-— a difference. michael, it might seem trite to say. — a difference. michael, it might seem trite to say. but _ a difference. michael, it might seem trite to say, but plenty _ a difference. michael, it might seem trite to say, but plenty of— a difference. michael, it might seem trite to say, but plenty of people - trite to say, but plenty of people will be watching this programme who i suspect will be thinking it is all very well to say what the pope is trying to do, but religion, whether religious people themselves want it to be this way, probably not, but religion has been used as a justification for what is otherwise unjustifiable, in terms of violence, in terms of political and economical and its faith the problem, not the solution? ., and its faith the problem, not the solution? . , ., , ., , solution? faith is not the problem, it is exploitation _ solution? faith is not the problem, it is exploitation by _ solution? faith is not the problem, it is exploitation by politics, - it is exploitation by politics, politicians and rulers, that is a

problem _ politicians and rulers, that is a problem. it has been a problem for a very. _ problem. it has been a problem for a very. very— problem. it has been a problem for a very, very long time. we are still living, _ very, very long time. we are still living, despite people's concerns we are ending _ living, despite people's concerns we are ending the age of enlightenment. the age _ are ending the age of enlightenment. the age of— are ending the age of enlightenment. the age of enlightenment began as a response _ the age of enlightenment began as a response to 150 years of unimaginable barbarity and cruelty as christianity went through its great _ as christianity went through its great reformation in the west. the foundational texts of the enlightenment, i will mention two, the theological and the letter concerning toleration byjohn locke are both _ concerning toleration byjohn locke are both written in a sense to say, for too _ are both written in a sense to say, for too long — are both written in a sense to say, for too long the clergy, whether it be catholic priests or ministers in the protestant faith have had the era of— the protestant faith have had the era of the — the protestant faith have had the era of the prints and they have been using _ era of the prints and they have been using that _ era of the prints and they have been using that access to form division and impose their will on the whole of societx — and impose their will on the whole of society. and they called for

toleration. you can have a public space _ toleration. you can have a public space where you can be catholic and you can _ space where you can be catholic and you can be _ space where you can be catholic and you can be protestant. you can be a sunny, _ you can be protestant. you can be a sunny, or— you can be protestant. you can be a sunny, or a — you can be protestant. you can be a sunny, or a sheer, you can be protestant. you can be a sunny, ora sheer, although you can be protestant. you can be a sunny, or a sheer, although they were _ sunny, or a sheer, although they were not— sunny, or a sheer, although they were not referring to the islamic world _ were not referring to the islamic world then. it has come now in modern — world then. it has come now in modern times to the islamic world and we _ modern times to the islamic world and we have been living less so today, — and we have been living less so today, but _ and we have been living less so today, but we have been living for several _ today, but we have been living for several decades while the islamic world _ several decades while the islamic world has— several decades while the islamic world has a kind of civil war that has been — world has a kind of civil war that has been going on. but it has been fomented — has been going on. but it has been fomented by politicians and used by politicians _ fomented by politicians and used by politicians to cement their own power~ — politicians to cement their own power. there is an element of hypocrisy— power. there is an element of hypocrisy in all of that. my own view _ hypocrisy in all of that. my own view is, — hypocrisy in all of that. my own view is, faith is personal, faith is what _ view is, faith is personal, faith is what you — view is, faith is personal, faith is what you were brought up in and it should _ what you were brought up in and it should stay— what you were brought up in and it should stay personal. but you have to be _ should stay personal. but you have to be very — should stay personal. but you have to be very careful when you bring it into the _ to be very careful when you bring it into the world of politics, because then it _ into the world of politics, because then it becomes a different game. there _ then it becomes a different game. there is, — then it becomes a different game. there is, catherine, a kind of

depressing repetitiveness about this isn't there, in the 16th and 17th century, it was catholics who were feared by some because they were said to have divided loyalties, how can they be loyal to our country when they still have this loyalty to the pope in rome who is a foreign prince. we have the same about jewish people, while there are rootless people, they cannot have any loyalty. we have heard it about muslims, we have heard it in various forms that sound benign, the early 80s, could you be british if you are cheering on india cricket, for example. it is the benign end but it can slide very quickly into something more sinister and more negative. as part of the problem that faith itself encourages this, one thinks of the crime of apostasy, the idea that you can be of the same fate, but if you deviate in a particular way, you are somehow betraying that faith?—

particular way, you are somehow betraying that faith? michael 'ust mentioned the i betraying that faith? michael 'ust mentioned the politics �* betraying that faith? michael 'ust mentioned the politics is i betraying that faith? michael 'ust mentioned the politics is the h mentioned the politics is the problem on faith. i think it might possibly human nature that is actually the problem. these difficulties keep coming over and over again. difficulties keep coming over and overagain. i difficulties keep coming over and over again. i think one area where we are seeing this insistence on loyalty is in china. see this time and time again, the chinese communist party seems to not be able to abide the idea that people could have a loyalty, devotion to a particular religious faith and also be chinese, be accepting of their government. and if there is one area of pope francis that is hugely controversial is his endeavours to form some kind of dialogue with the chinese, which doesn't seem to be getting christians in the country

any further down the road to some kind of normal life. it seems to be an intractable problem and his attempts at reconciliation and dialogue with the chinese, i don't know if he is naive, but is not getting anybody very far. vincent, that is an interesting _ getting anybody very far. vincent, that is an interesting example, i that is an interesting example, isn't it? what had been the persecution of christians, catholics in modern day china and then this kind of insistence from the chinese leadership, as i understand it, right, you can chinese bishops, you can have practice, but we have to have approval about who these people are you are putting in charge, because he was setting them up as a rival authority? i because he was setting them up as a rival authority?— rival authority? i agree with what michael said, _ rival authority? i agree with what michael said, religion _ rival authority? i agree with what michael said, religion itself- rival authority? i agree with what| michael said, religion itself might not be _ michael said, religion itself might not be a _ michael said, religion itself might not be a problem _ michael said, religion itself might not be a problem but _ michael said, religion itself might not be a problem but when - michael said, religion itself might not be a problem but when it- michael said, religion itself might not be a problem but when it is. not be a problem but when it is mixed — not be a problem but when it is mixed with _ not be a problem but when it is mixed with politics, _ not be a problem but when it is mixed with politics, external. mixed with politics, external geopolitics. _ mixed with politics, external geopolitics. it— mixed with politics, external geopolitics, it is— mixed with politics, external geopolitics, it is a _

mixed with politics, external geopolitics, it is a problem. i mixed with politics, external- geopolitics, it is a problem. from china's_ geopolitics, it is a problem. from china's perspective, _ geopolitics, it is a problem. from china's perspective, when- geopolitics, it is a problem. from china's perspective, when they i geopolitics, it is a problem. from . china's perspective, when they look at the _ china's perspective, when they look at the nrap— china's perspective, when they look at the map where _ china's perspective, when they look at the map where shane _ china's perspective, when they look at the map where shane jan - china's perspective, when they look at the map where shane jan lies, i china's perspective, when they look at the map where shane jan lies, it| at the map where shane jan lies, it is bordered — at the map where shane jan lies, it is bordered by— at the map where shane jan lies, it is bordered by eight _ at the map where shane jan lies, it is bordered by eight countries, - is bordered by eight countries, afghanistan _ is bordered by eight countries, afghanistan and _ is bordered by eight countries, afghanistan and to _ is bordered by eight countries, afghanistan and to russia. - is bordered by eight countries, afghanistan and to russia. iiriliiej is bordered by eight countries, afghanistan and to russia. we are talkin: afghanistan and to russia. we are talking about _ afghanistan and to russia. we are talking about their _ afghanistan and to russia. we are talking about their divided - afghanistan and to russia. we are talking about their divided loyalty| talking about their divided loyalty concept and faith is sometimes one of the things political leader see as a potential threat?— of the things political leader see as a potential threat? yes, there was an element _ as a potential threat? yes, there was an element of— as a potential threat? yes, there was an element of internal- as a potential threat? yes, there i was an element of internal security, also an— was an element of internal security, also an element _ was an element of internal security, also an element of— was an element of internal security, also an element of external - also an element of external geopolitics _ also an element of external geopolitics here. _ also an element of external geopolitics here. when - also an element of external geopolitics here. when it. also an element of external - geopolitics here. when it comes to faith and _ geopolitics here. when it comes to faith and politics, _ geopolitics here. when it comes to faith and politics, if _ geopolitics here. when it comes to faith and politics, if they— geopolitics here. when it comes to faith and politics, if they are - faith and politics, if they are mixed — faith and politics, if they are mixed together, _ faith and politics, if they are mixed together, this - faith and politics, if they are mixed together, this is- faith and politics, if they are i mixed together, this is where faith and politics, if they are - mixed together, this is where the controversy— mixed together, this is where the controversy lies. _ mixed together, this is where the controversy lies. not— mixed together, this is where the controversy lies. notjust - mixed together, this is where the controversy lies. notjust in - mixed together, this is where the controversy lies. notjust in china but also _ controversy lies. notjust in china but also in — controversy lies. notjust in china but also in myanmar, _ controversy lies. notjust in china but also in myanmar, in- controversy lies. notjust in china but also in myanmar, in the - controversy lies. notjust in china| but also in myanmar, in the plight of the _ but also in myanmar, in the plight of the rohingya _ but also in myanmar, in the plight of the rohingya muslims, - but also in myanmar, in the plightl of the rohingya muslims, buddhist monks— of the rohingya muslims, buddhist monks becoming _ of the rohingya muslims, buddhist monks becoming very— of the rohingya muslims, buddhist monks becoming very political, - of the rohingya muslims, buddhist. monks becoming very political, some high-profite — monks becoming very political, some high-profite ones _ monks becoming very political, some high—profile ones reportedly- monks becoming very political, some high—profile ones reportedly have - high—profile ones reportedly have said things — high—profile ones reportedly have said things like _ high—profile ones reportedly have said things like every— high—profile ones reportedly have said things like every muslim - high—profile ones reportedly have said things like every muslim is l said things like every muslim is dangerous _ said things like every muslim is dangerous. this— said things like every muslim is dangerous. this is— said things like every muslim is dangerous. this is where - said things like every muslim is| dangerous. this is where things said things like every muslim is - dangerous. this is where things get out of— dangerous. this is where things get out of control~ _ dangerous. this is where things get out of control. you _ dangerous. this is where things get out of control. you have _ dangerous. this is where things get out of control. you have religion - out of control. you have religion mixed _ out of control. you have religion mixed with _ out of control. you have religion mixed with politics. _ out of control. you have religion mixed with politics. that- out of control. you have religion mixed with politics.—

mixed with politics. that is an interesting — mixed with politics. that is an interesting example _ mixed with politics. that is an interesting example because l mixed with politics. that is an i interesting example because we mixed with politics. that is an - interesting example because we are at a point in myanmar, there is a kind of very, arguably quite poisonous link between ethnic identity and faith. if you are a nationalist loyal to myanmar as a concept, you are likely to be processed. 90% of the population is buddhist. any muslim is potentially dangerous. —— buddhist. we have seen an example of that in the treatment of the rohingya minority. is there any pushback, is there a sense of any pushback, is there a sense of any people who are uncertain about the way this has gone? brute any people who are uncertain about the way this has gone?— any people who are uncertain about the way this has gone? we have seen re orters the way this has gone? we have seen reporters going _ the way this has gone? we have seen reporters going into _ the way this has gone? we have seen reporters going into either— the way this has gone? we have seen reporters going into either myanmar. reporters going into either myanmar or in neighbouring _ reporters going into either myanmar or in neighbouring countries - reporters going into either myanmar or in neighbouring countries and - or in neighbouring countries and reporting — or in neighbouring countries and reporting on _ or in neighbouring countries and reporting on the _ or in neighbouring countries and reporting on the plight - or in neighbouring countries and reporting on the plight of - or in neighbouring countries and . reporting on the plight of rohingya muslims _ reporting on the plight of rohingya muslims also— reporting on the plight of rohingya muslims. also pope _ reporting on the plight of rohingya muslims. also pope francis- reporting on the plight of rohingya muslims. also pope francis last i reporting on the plight of rohingya l muslims. also pope francis last year also mentioned — muslims. also pope francis last year also mentioned new— muslims. also pope francis last year also mentioned new cds, _ muslims. also pope francis last year also mentioned new cds, uighurs. muslims. also pope francis last yearl also mentioned new cds, uighurs and rohingya _ also mentioned new cds, uighurs and rohingya is, _ also mentioned new cds, uighurs and rohingya is, calling _ also mentioned new cds, uighurs and rohingya is, calling them _ also mentioned new cds, uighurs and rohingya is, calling them persecutedl rohingya is, calling them persecuted people _ rohingya is, calling them persecuted

people so _ rohingya is, calling them persecuted people so there _ rohingya is, calling them persecuted people. so there is— rohingya is, calling them persecuted people. so there is international- people. so there is international pushback, — people. so there is international pushback, but— people. so there is international pushback, but we _ people. so there is international pushback, but we all— people. so there is international pushback, but we all know - people. so there is international pushback, but we all know what| people. so there is international. pushback, but we all know what is happening — pushback, but we all know what is happening in— pushback, but we all know what is happening in myanmar— pushback, but we all know what is happening in myanmar today- pushback, but we all know what is happening in myanmar today and i pushback, but we all know what is - happening in myanmar today and there doesn't _ happening in myanmar today and there doesn't seem _ happening in myanmar today and there doesn't seem to — happening in myanmar today and there doesn't seem to be _ happening in myanmar today and there doesn't seem to be the _ happening in myanmar today and there doesn't seem to be the opportunity- doesn't seem to be the opportunity to have _ doesn't seem to be the opportunity to have a _ doesn't seem to be the opportunity to have a dialogue _ doesn't seem to be the opportunity to have a dialogue with _ doesn't seem to be the opportunity to have a dialogue with what - doesn't seem to be the opportunity to have a dialogue with what is - to have a dialogue with what is happening _ to have a dialogue with what is happening in— to have a dialogue with what is happening in myanmar- to have a dialogue with what is happening in myanmar and - to have a dialogue with what is. happening in myanmar and what to have a dialogue with what is - happening in myanmar and what is perceived — happening in myanmar and what is perceived outside. _ happening in myanmar and what is perceived outside. is _ happening in myanmar and what is perceived outside.— perceived outside. as you said, it is not dialogue, _ perceived outside. as you said, it is not dialogue, it _ perceived outside. as you said, it is not dialogue, it is _ perceived outside. as you said, it is not dialogue, it is dispersal- perceived outside. as you said, it| is not dialogue, it is dispersal and execution for those who are protesting. michael, this goes back to idea of the politics. if we are talking about reconciliation and we talking about reconciliation and we talk about politics, it is hard not to think of the united states and again, weirdly there is almost a sense that as the practice of religion has declined, or the organised practice of religion, some of that passion has gone from faith into politics and politics has become almost a form of religion in itself? let become almost a form of religion in itself? , , ., . ., itself? let me 'ust, before i come back to that, — itself? let me 'ust, before i come backto that, l— itself? let mejust, before i come back to that, i want _ itself? let mejust, before i come back to that, i want to _ itself? let mejust, before i come back to that, i want to pick - itself? let mejust, before i come back to that, i want to pick up - itself? let mejust, before i come back to that, i want to pick up on | back to that, i want to pick up on something — back to that, i want to pick up on something vincent was saying. this is again— something vincent was saying. this is again politics and religion, that

neither— is again politics and religion, that neither pakistan nor turkey, muslim countries, _ neither pakistan nor turkey, muslim countries, has been particularly loud _ countries, has been particularly loud in— countries, has been particularly loud in criticising china for its treatment of its muslim minority. and that — treatment of its muslim minority. and that is — treatment of its muslim minority. and that is politics at large. turkey. _ and that is politics at large. turkey, both leaders of both countries _ turkey, both leaders of both countries are very, very, it would call themselves islamic politicians, i call themselves islamic politicians, i would _ call themselves islamic politicians, i would think but they are not standing _ i would think but they are not standing up fortheir i would think but they are not standing up for their muslim brothers. but coming back to america. _ brothers. but coming back to america, some very, very opinion research — america, some very, very opinion research came out this week, they have _ research came out this week, they have sampled all kinds of opinion which _ have sampled all kinds of opinion which shows that despite the fact that americans profess religion, one of the _ that americans profess religion, one of the most — that americans profess religion, one of the most religious countries in the west. — of the most religious countries in the west, church attendance has gone down _ the west, church attendance has gone down they _ the west, church attendance has gone

down. they haven't explained why that should happen over the last four or— that should happen over the last four or five years, but my guess is so evangelical christians, and really— so evangelical christians, and really they are political christians, have become so dominant in parts _ christians, have become so dominant in parts of— christians, have become so dominant in parts of the country that there are many— in parts of the country that there are many people in the south in texas, — are many people in the south in texas, in — are many people in the south in texas, in the west now, he would consider— texas, in the west now, he would consider themselves in religious terms, _ consider themselves in religious terms. to— consider themselves in religious terms, to be evangelical, but don't want _ terms, to be evangelical, but don't want to— terms, to be evangelical, but don't want to go— terms, to be evangelical, but don't want to go to church on sunday and have a _ want to go to church on sunday and have a political agenda pulled down their throats, have a political agenda pulled down theirthroats, so have a political agenda pulled down their throats, so they have stopped going _ their throats, so they have stopped going to _ their throats, so they have stopped going to church. part of the problem in america _ going to church. part of the problem in america and one of the reasons why people — in america and one of the reasons why people have such a hard time talking, _ why people have such a hard time talking, it — why people have such a hard time talking, it does seem to be going through — talking, it does seem to be going through i— talking, it does seem to be going through... i think it is in a state of cold — through... i think it is in a state of cold civil— through... i think it is in a state of cold civil war, there is the religious— of cold civil war, there is the religious element. there is a sense that, _ religious element. there is a sense that, this _ religious element. there is a sense that, this is — religious element. there is a sense that, this is my faith, i am right. my political _ that, this is my faith, i am right. my political opinion is right. that is more — my political opinion is right. that is more thanjust an intellectual opinion, — is more thanjust an intellectual opinion, it — is more thanjust an intellectual opinion, it is something they believe. _ opinion, it is something they

believe, that this is what the united — believe, that this is what the united states is, or was when it was founded _ united states is, or was when it was founded and is no longer, and i will fi-ht founded and is no longer, and i will fight people to make it what it was at its _ fight people to make it what it was at its founding. and that is tied in with this — at its founding. and that is tied in with this political christianity. it is a big — with this political christianity. it is a big problem. that with this political christianity. it is a big problem.— is a big problem. that is an interesting _ is a big problem. that is an interesting prospect - is a big problem. that is an - interesting prospect catherine, when we talk about the idea of reconciliation. you were saying about the importance of dialogue. dialogue only works if people are talking to each other and not passed each other. and there is this sense, in terms of the practice of politics, they don't have to be convinced by fax any more, it is an act of faith to believe in the ideology they believe in. how do you start to disentangle that, to be able to change people's mind that they fear that in changing their minds, they are losing their identity? i minds, they are losing their identi ? ~' ., minds, they are losing their identi ? ~ ., ., identity? i think one of the problems _ identity? i think one of the problems we _ identity? i think one of the problems we have - identity? i think one of the problems we have right - identity? i think one of the l problems we have right now identity? i think one of the - problems we have right now is the impact of social media. i think

social media is upping the anti all the time. it is making people much more divided rather than bringing them together. what it does, people follow those they agree with except when they are unbelievably hostile to those they agree with. what we see lacking in social media, and i think we see lacking so often in these conflicts we talking about here, there seems to be a complete lack of humility. there is an assumption that one side is right and the other side is completely wrong and can be completely dismissed. if you are going to have dialogue, you have got to have that humility to develop as well. we see an enormous lack of that in politics as well. that the conflicts often

involving politics, whether religion is part of it or not, the situation is part of it or not, the situation is made even more difficult because of this lack of humility. i am not sure how you encourage people to develop that type of humanity, but when it is lacking, we just don't get the dialogue that is needed. in a country like brazil, successful and powerful country. a country that many admire and other countries aspire to be like brazil, to go from where brazil was to where it is now, but it's politics has become increasingly polarised and distrustful, convince the other side is corrupt and you cannot engage with them. president bolsonaro now facing his former president, president de silva, who has become the focus of this, it is hard to understand how a country like this gets to that stage of reconciliation

without something much worse first? completely, in a polarised world it is ordinary— completely, in a polarised world it is ordinary people _ completely, in a polarised world it is ordinary people who _ completely, in a polarised world it is ordinary people who bear- completely, in a polarised world it is ordinary people who bear the i is ordinary people who bear the brunt — is ordinary people who bear the brunt look— is ordinary people who bear the brunt. look at _ is ordinary people who bear the brunt. look at brazil— is ordinary people who bear the brunt. look at brazil when - is ordinary people who bear the brunt. look at brazil when it i is ordinary people who bear the - brunt. look at brazil when it comes to the _ brunt. look at brazil when it comes to the covid — brunt. look at brazil when it comes to the covid health _ brunt. look at brazil when it comes to the covid health crisis _ brunt. look at brazil when it comes to the covid health crisis and - brunt. look at brazil when it comes to the covid health crisis and a - to the covid health crisis and a vaccine — to the covid health crisis and a vaccine is _ to the covid health crisis and a vaccine is not _ to the covid health crisis and a vaccine is not largely- to the covid health crisis and a vaccine is not largely rolled . to the covid health crisis and a | vaccine is not largely rolled out yet in _ vaccine is not largely rolled out yet in the — vaccine is not largely rolled out yet in the country. _ vaccine is not largely rolled out yet in the country. top- vaccine is not largely rolled out. yet in the country. top leadership, president— yet in the country. top leadership, president bolsonaro— yet in the country. top leadership, president bolsonaro has— yet in the country. top leadership, president bolsonaro has been- yet in the country. top leadership, president bolsonaro has been a . yet in the country. top leadership, i president bolsonaro has been a very reluctant— president bolsonaro has been a very reluctant to — president bolsonaro has been a very reluctant to get _ president bolsonaro has been a very reluctant to get people _ president bolsonaro has been a very reluctant to get people vaccinated. i reluctant to get people vaccinated. it is reluctant to get people vaccinated. it is ordinary— reluctant to get people vaccinated. it is ordinary people _ reluctant to get people vaccinated. it is ordinary people suffering - reluctant to get people vaccinated. it is ordinary people suffering from political _ it is ordinary people suffering from political polarisation. _ it is ordinary people suffering from political polarisation. that - it is ordinary people suffering from political polarisation. that is- it is ordinary people suffering from political polarisation. that is the i political polarisation. that is the problem. — political polarisation. that is the problem. the _ political polarisation. that is the problem, the lack— political polarisation. that is the problem, the lack of _ political polarisation. that is thej problem, the lack of leadership, whether— problem, the lack of leadership, whether it — problem, the lack of leadership, whether it is _ problem, the lack of leadership, whether it is in _ problem, the lack of leadership, whether it is in brazil— problem, the lack of leadership, whether it is in brazil or- problem, the lack of leadership, whether it is in brazil or in- problem, the lack of leadership, whether it is in brazil or in the l whether it is in brazil or in the united — whether it is in brazil or in the united states. _ whether it is in brazil or in the united states. they— whether it is in brazil or in the united states. they certainly. whether it is in brazil or in the - united states. they certainly want to bring _ united states. they certainly want to bring the — united states. they certainly want to bring the country— united states. they certainly want to bring the country together, - united states. they certainly want to bring the country together, but| to bring the country together, but it will— to bring the country together, but it will take — to bring the country together, but it will take him — to bring the country together, but it will take him a _ to bring the country together, but it will take him a long _ to bring the country together, but it will take him a long time, - to bring the country together, but it will take him a long time, if- to bring the country together, but it will take him a long time, if notj it will take him a long time, if not years. _ it will take him a long time, if not years. to — it will take him a long time, if not years. to make _ it will take him a long time, if not years, to make it _ it will take him a long time, if not years, to make it happen. - it will take him a long time, if not years, to make it happen. he - it will take him a long time, if not years, to make it happen. he is. years, to make it happen. he is building — years, to make it happen. he is building infrastructure, - years, to make it happen. he is building infrastructure, gettingl building infrastructure, getting americans— building infrastructure, getting americans inoculated - building infrastructure, getting americans inoculated by- building infrastructure, getting americans inoculated by the i building infrastructure, getting - americans inoculated by the summer. but we _ americans inoculated by the summer. but we are _ americans inoculated by the summer. but we are facing _ americans inoculated by the summer. but we are facing this _ americans inoculated by the summer. but we are facing this unprecedented i but we are facing this unprecedented scenario— but we are facing this unprecedented scenario now — but we are facing this unprecedented scenario now. we _ but we are facing this unprecedented scenario now. we don't— but we are facing this unprecedented

scenario now. we don't know- but we are facing this unprecedented | scenario now. we don't know whether there _ scenario now. we don't know whether there will— scenario now. we don't know whether there will be — scenario now. we don't know whether there will be an — scenario now. we don't know whether there will be an economic— scenario now. we don't know whether there will be an economic crisis - there will be an economic crisis following — there will be an economic crisis following this _ there will be an economic crisis following this health _ there will be an economic crisis following this health crisis. - there will be an economic crisis following this health crisis. we| following this health crisis. we don't _ following this health crisis. we don't know— following this health crisis. we don't know how _ following this health crisis. we don't know how the _ following this health crisis. we . don't know how the competition between — don't know how the competition between the _ don't know how the competition between the us _ don't know how the competition between the us and _ don't know how the competition between the us and china - don't know how the competition between the us and china will l between the us and china will develop — between the us and china will develop. this _ between the us and china will develop. this is _ between the us and china will develop. this is a _ between the us and china will develop. this is a really- between the us and china will. develop. this is a really divided and divisive _ develop. this is a really divided and divisive world _ develop. this is a really divided and divisive world where - develop. this is a really divided and divisive world where there. develop. this is a really divided. and divisive world where there is develop. this is a really divided - and divisive world where there is no apparent _ and divisive world where there is no apparent leader— and divisive world where there is no apparent leader who _ and divisive world where there is no apparent leader who can _ and divisive world where there is no apparent leader who can bring - apparent leader who can bring everybody _ apparent leader who can bring everybody together _ apparent leader who can bring everybody together from - apparent leader who can bring everybody together from an . everybody together from an international _ everybody together from an international level - everybody together from an international level and - everybody together from an international level and from individual— international level and from individual countries. - international level and from individual countries. i- international level and from individual countries.- international level and from individual countries. i want to erha -s individual countries. i want to perhaps end _ individual countries. i want to perhaps end on _ individual countries. i want to perhaps end on the _ individual countries. i want to perhaps end on the pandemicj individual countries. i want to - perhaps end on the pandemic but picking up on what we were talking about earlier, catherine gave examples of where places had dialogue and reconciliation, she mentioned south africa and northern ireland, but you can't question whether there was truly reconciliation. one country that seems to be happening in a way that has surprised people is colombia. the big process has led to some former leaders of the fat credible group —— farc rebel group been

charged with war crimes. they are taking the reverse approach. is that a productive one, do you think? in the case of colombia, part of it, there _ the case of colombia, part of it, there are — the case of colombia, part of it, there are some countries where you can bolster— there are some countries where you can bolster these things through aid. can bolster these things through aid it— can bolster these things through aid it is— can bolster these things through aid. it is clear that is what happened in south africa and to a very considerable degree in northern ireland _ very considerable degree in northern ireland when there was a lot of inward — ireland when there was a lot of inward investment from the united states— inward investment from the united states to _ inward investment from the united states to make sure that in this transition — states to make sure that in this transition period, the people who have _ transition period, the people who have been— transition period, the people who have been fighting insurgency is against — have been fighting insurgency is against one another for decades in the case _ against one another for decades in the case of— against one another for decades in the case of colombia going back to the case of colombia going back to the 19605, have an opportunity to talk and _ the 19605, have an opportunity to talk and to— the 19605, have an opportunity to talk and to deal with one another in a world _ talk and to deal with one another in a world where economic... economic -ain a world where economic... economic gain is— a world where economic... economic gain is being — a world where economic... economic gain is being more evenly spread. thi5 gain is being more evenly spread. this perhaps can bring us back to

america — this perhaps can bring us back to america because inequality has been growing _ america because inequality has been growing at _ america because inequality has been growing at such a pace. people don't feel like _ growing at such a pace. people don't feel like they have that economic stake _ feel like they have that economic stake in — feel like they have that economic stake in the overall health of the society — stake in the overall health of the society. whereas in colombia, that seems _ society. whereas in colombia, that seems to— society. whereas in colombia, that seems to be different. it should also be — seems to be different. it should also be said that if you know enough about _ also be said that if you know enough about the _ also be said that if you know enough about the wards that were fought in colombia _ about the wards that were fought in colombia between the farc and other groups— colombia between the farc and other groups and various governments and you know— groups and various governments and you know what half a century feels like, you know what half a century feels like. you _ you know what half a century feels like, you mightjust be inclined to say, like, you mightjust be inclined to say we _ like, you mightjust be inclined to say, we don't have to fight about this stuff, — say, we don't have to fight about this stuff, we really don't. so time also heals, — this stuff, we really don't. so time also heals, to a certain degree. and that it's a also heals, to a certain degree. situc that it's a message of also heals, to a certain degree. fific that it's a message of hope and optimism, catherine. one element is this, and we have had it in different forms, people trying to apologise and account for what has been done. whether it is apologies for historic child sexual abuse,

apologies for slavery in the atlantic slave trade, whether in the most recent example, it is a small institution in a part of the united kingdom saying, out of step with other institutions around the world, actually, we have got this thing, we have got this bronze that was pillaged from nigeria and it is intolerable for us to keep it, we will give it back. small acts that might have a bigger resonance? yes. might have a bigger resonance? yes, when we look — might have a bigger resonance? yes, when we look at _ might have a bigger resonance? yes, when we look at an _ might have a bigger resonance? isis when we look at an issue such as might have a bigger resonance? i2: when we look at an issue such as we have this morning, conflict across the world, it is easy to be very pessimistic. but i think you have just mentioned small acts and if you look across society, and we have seen this particularly in the pandemic that there are countless small acts that do make a difference. i think the pandemic has exacerbated existing problems.

michael was just mentioning inequality and we have seen how inequality and we have seen how inequality in the uk has been exasperated by pandemic. but the pandemic has highlighted the capacity for humanity to do good as well. that is something perhaps at easter we can celebrate.— well. that is something perhaps at easter we can celebrate. vincent, on that thought. — easter we can celebrate. vincent, on that thought. we _ easter we can celebrate. vincent, on that thought, we have _ easter we can celebrate. vincent, on that thought, we have had _ easter we can celebrate. vincent, on that thought, we have had this - easter we can celebrate. vincent, on that thought, we have had this call l that thought, we have had this call from a number of world leaders, including borisjohnson in the uk, angela merkel, president macron, in a sense acknowledging they are not adequate as individuals for the pandemic, but a future treaty for pandemics and say that we are all in this together, particularly over vaccine nationalism. has it been such a bad experience for the world that this might be the thing to galvanise us to do something together?

galvanise us to do something touether? , galvanise us to do something toether? i i galvanise us to do something toether? i , ., galvanise us to do something together?— galvanise us to do something toether? i ,., , , together? this is a positive step and 25 countries _ together? this is a positive step and 25 countries have _ together? this is a positive step and 25 countries have joined - together? this is a positive step and 25 countries have joined a i together? this is a positive step - and 25 countries have joined a cause to establish — and 25 countries have joined a cause to establish this _ and 25 countries have joined a cause to establish this treaty. _ and 25 countries have joined a cause to establish this treaty. the - and 25 countries have joined a cause to establish this treaty. the devil. to establish this treaty. the devil is in the — to establish this treaty. the devil is in the detail. _ to establish this treaty. the devil is in the detail. we _ to establish this treaty. the devil is in the detail. we are _ to establish this treaty. the devil is in the detail. we are in- to establish this treaty. the devil is in the detail. we are in a - to establish this treaty. the devil is in the detail. we are in a timel is in the detail. we are in a time of every— is in the detail. we are in a time of every country _ is in the detail. we are in a time of every country believe - is in the detail. we are in a time of every country believe they. is in the detail. we are in a time l of every country believe they have the right _ of every country believe they have the right to — of every country believe they have the right to set _ of every country believe they have the right to set the _ of every country believe they have the right to set the rules. - of every country believe they have the right to set the rules. it - of every country believe they have the right to set the rules. it is - the right to set the rules. it is ultimately— the right to set the rules. it is ultimately about— the right to set the rules. it is ultimately about who - the right to set the rules. it is ultimately about who sets - the right to set the rules. it is ultimately about who sets the j the right to set the rules. it is - ultimately about who sets the rules, whether _ ultimately about who sets the rules, whether it _ ultimately about who sets the rules, whether it is — ultimately about who sets the rules, whether it is the _ ultimately about who sets the rules, whether it is the us, _ ultimately about who sets the rules, whether it is the us, china, - ultimately about who sets the rules, whether it is the us, china, the - ultimately about who sets the rules, whether it is the us, china, the eu i whether it is the us, china, the eu or the _ whether it is the us, china, the eu or the uk — whether it is the us, china, the eu or the uk it — whether it is the us, china, the eu orthe uk it is— whether it is the us, china, the eu orthe uk. it is a _ whether it is the us, china, the eu or the uk. it is a very— whether it is the us, china, the eu or the uk. it is a very positive - or the uk. it is a very positive step— or the uk. it is a very positive step but— or the uk. it is a very positive step but it _ or the uk. it is a very positive step but it will— or the uk. it is a very positive step but it will take _ or the uk. it is a very positive step but it will take some - or the uk. it is a very positive i step but it will take some time. especially— step but it will take some time. especially contacts— step but it will take some time. especially contacts and - step but it will take some time. i especially contacts and negotiating a multilateral— especially contacts and negotiating a multilateral treaty. _ especially contacts and negotiating a multilateral treaty. we _ especially contacts and negotiating a multilateral treaty. we know- especially contacts and negotiatingj a multilateral treaty. we know how notorious— a multilateral treaty. we know how notorious it — a multilateral treaty. we know how notorious it can _ a multilateral treaty. we know how notorious it can be _ a multilateral treaty. we know how notorious it can be sometimes. - a multilateral treaty. we know how notorious it can be sometimes. it l a multilateral treaty. we know how| notorious it can be sometimes. it is positive _ notorious it can be sometimes. it is positive but— notorious it can be sometimes. it is positive but it — notorious it can be sometimes. it is positive but it will— notorious it can be sometimes. it is positive but it will take _ notorious it can be sometimes. it is positive but it will take some - notorious it can be sometimes. it is positive but it will take some time. | positive but it will take some time. time _ positive but it will take some time. time is _ positive but it will take some time. time is one — positive but it will take some time. time is one thing _ positive but it will take some time. time is one thing we _ positive but it will take some time. time is one thing we have - positive but it will take some time. time is one thing we have on - positive but it will take some time. time is one thing we have on our. time is one thing we have on our hands for now. not least many people sitting at home. thank you for being with us. thank you to catherine, michael and vincent and for you watching us. i am remembering that sometimes you have to make compromises. what is it the prophet and prince said that after years of religion, the massacre of terrible acts in france when he said paris is

worth a mass. that's it for dateline london for this week, we're back next week at the same time. goodbye. hello, there. some fine, settled weather for many places over the next few days, before things turn much colder by the time we get to easter monday, but, for today, many places dry, a bit of sunshine around for most of us, not everywhere, though. there's going to be more cloud across parts of central and, in particular, eastern england. so, if you have got that cloud, a cooler day ahead, with the breeze coming in off the north sea. so, cloudier skies for east anglia, the south—east, through parts of the midlands up towards north—east england, as well, also northern scotland seeing a bit more cloud, and quite breezy around these peripheries of the uk. just 8 or 9 degrees where you have got the cloud and the breeze

from the north sea, but look at that — 16, there, in aberdeen, 13 in belfast, not too bad, where you keep the sunshine lasting through into the afternoon. now, this evening and tonight it will be dry with clear spells and a cold night ahead. a touch of frost likely as temperatures in more rural spots dip a little bit below freezing. so, a chilly start to your easter sunday, i think. we will start to see high pressure slowly easing away as this cold front works its way in from the north, so, a change afoot, particularly later in the day. we are going to see the cloud increasing for scotland and northern ireland, the breeze picking up ahead of some afternoon rain working in. further south, across england and wales, more sunshine than we have seen over recent days, particularly for central and eastern areas, where temperatures will reach around 1a or 15 degrees for easter sunday. but single figures across the northern half of scotland as that cold air works in, and through sunday night into easter monday, as this cold front works its way south, that is going to open the doors for this really cold blast of arctic air to push all the way from the arctic right across the uk, bringing some wintry showers, some sleet and some snow, even to low levels.

now, most of them will be just draped around the coast, parts of eastern england, eastern scotland, a few into northern ireland, as well. parts of scotland could see up to 15 centimetres of snow over the higher ground, and these wintry showers blown on a brisk northerly wind, too. so, temperatures on easter monday on your thermometer may well read around about 3 to 8 degrees, but when you add on the effect of that strong northerly wind, the wind chill will make it feel subzero for some of us. so, certainly a very different feeling day for easter monday. in fact, it's going to stay quite chilly for tuesday into wednesday, before temperatures are slowly going to ease back to near average later in the week. bye for now.

this is bbc news — these are the latest headlines in the uk and around the world: new rules for care home visits in england. two people — as well as babies and young children — will be allowed for indoor visits from 12th april. we know that in care homes we've got some... ..maybe grandparents or great—grandparents who haven't had a chance to see new arrivals to their family during the pandemic and this will be the chance for that to happen. president biden says he's heartbroken at the death of a police officer — killed as he was guarding the us capitol building in washington dc. that was on friday. italy goes into an easter lockdown, as the country struggles with the latest wave of the coronavirus. a special report from belgium, where a series of high—profile deaths in police custody lead to calls for reform. and the mummies of 22 ancient egyptian rulers will be transported through cairo today —

crowds are expected to line the streets to witness the historic procession.