tv HAR Dtalk BBC News April 13, 2021 12:30am-1:01am BST
12:30 am
city of minneapolis —— following the fatal police shooting of another black man. the police authorities say daunte wright, who was 20, was killed after an officer accidentally pulled her gun out instead of a taser. there've been widespread protests. in light of the new police shooting the judge in the trial of derek chauvin, the former minneapolis policeman charged with george floyd's murder last may, has denied a defense request to isolate or sequester the jurors. derek chauvin is charged with killing him by kneeling on his neck. princes william and harry have praised the duke of edinburgh's life of service and sense of humour in separate tributes. politicians from across the political spectrum in the uk also paid their respects —— in special parliamentary and assembly sittings to mark the death of prince philip, now on bbc news it's
12:31 am
time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi. my guest is the writer, film—maker and activist, tsitsi dangarembga. she is one of zimbabwe's most influential and acclaimed culturalfigures. arrested for her political activism, she says her art gives her a platform to call for change. what are the prospects for better days in zimbabwe when everyday life is a struggle? tsitsi dangarembga, in harare,
12:32 am
welcome to hardtalk. your latest book, this mournable body, centres on a female character, tambu. is it a personal story, or is it a history of modern zimbabwe? zeinab, i find that my work generally intersects between the personal and the national and the historical, because the national and the historical have a lot to do in determining what the person can do, what a character can do, whether this is in real life or in a novel. i do want my work to be realistic, or at least i have done up until now, because i have wanted people in zimbabwe and on the continent to engage from a perspective of recognition, to be able to say, "yes, this is us." and i also wanted to present characters like the people i meet in everyday life
12:33 am
to the rest of the world. so, there you have tambu, your main character... it's actually a trilogy of books which you've written over 30 years, this is the third one. and she fights prejudice in all sorts of ways — against race, you know, gender discrimination, all the rest of it. but in this book, you've brought tambu's story up to zimbabwe in the 1990s, when robert mugabe, of course, was in power. how do you see that period in zimbabwean history? that period in zimbabwe's history, when robert mugabe was in power, was a history of increasing disillusionment, increasing lack and loss of hope, increasing distress. we began very well, we thought, in 1980, and for the first decade or so up until 1990 — but then, things began to disintegrate. up until now, when we have a situation where daily life
12:34 am
is almost impossible for most of the citizens in the country. just getting enough food to eat, being able to afford to buy food, having power in your home, clean water — all of these things are not anything that we can take for granted anymore. so, it's really been a great decline since the days of robert mugabe, and going forward from the time of robert mugabe, we do not see that there has been any improvement. just take us on that journey, because you talk about the disillusionment and the reality of zimbabwe today — but it didn't start like that, did it? i mean, there was a great deal of hope, optimism, even euphoria, after colonialism, the war of independence, independence, and then you got mugabe. i mean, surely there were great moments? yes, zeinab. i remember being in harare in 1980, when zanu—pf won the elections, and just seeing people streaming through
12:35 am
the streets celebrating. this came at the end of a war that had lasted for one—and—a—half decades, and in which just about the whole population had participated in one way or another. rural people engaged with the guerrillas — they fed them, they hid them. they took the brunt of rhodesian security forces�* onslaught in the security forces�* attempt to apprehend the guerrillas. and people had contributed money and other resources to the war effort. so, it felt like we had managed to do something good for ourselves, for once, all together as a nation, and we were going to go forward in the same way. it seemed like we had made our own history for the first time, because during the colonial era, history was said to be made for us by other people. the euphoria did not last long. we began to realise that the culture of war
12:36 am
was still a culture that was very much with us. zanu—pf began to act like a government that had been in exile, and that had constituted itself into a state in exile, that had now come into the country and taken over all the structures that were there. so, it seemed very much that, at one point, we had the british settlers, who became the rhodesians, coming in and taking over everything — and we relived that with zanu—pf, which came in to take over land, all kinds of economic activity. in the beginning, this was said to be done in the name of the nation, but as time went on, we saw more and more, and it was actually said very clearly that things were not done in the name of the nation. things were done in the name of the party. this became very clear in 2017 when we had a coup. again, the reason for the coup
12:37 am
was to safeguard the party and the war of liberation — because in zanu—pf rhetoric, the war of liberation belongs to them and does not belong to the whole nation that participated in it. you have said, "everything in zimbabwe is transactional. we do not have a values—based society now." just elaborate on that. what do you mean? i mean we are living at the very edge of survival. it is like the proverbial drowning person clutching at a straw, anything that is available to us. to improve the quality of our lives is something we are willing to give something for. to give you an example of what i mean — we've been through lockdown, which means that young people
12:38 am
have not been at school, which means there have been young girls on the streets, just trying to help their families to survive, and engaging in transactional sex maybe as early as 12—13. what kind of money are these girls receiving for that transaction of their bodies? they're sometimes receiving a bunch of vegetables to go and eat that evening with their families. so, this is the nature of the transactional life that we have led. everybody looks at the other person as a person from whom something can be gained, something that is necessary forjust continuing and getting through the day. we no longer look at each other as co—nationals, as people who have a common history and should be constructing a common fate. it's about what can i get out
12:39 am
of this situation and this person in this situation at this moment in time? so, very distressing stories, of course, of that kind of exploitation of young girls that you used to illustrate what you mean. so, look, you are part of the opposition to the ruling party, zanu—pf. i mean, you were actually part of the movement for democratic change — the main opposition grouping, in 2010, the faction led by arthur mutambara — and you were actually nominated education secretary. you were very hopeful for change. you're still an activist. you were arrested injuly last yearfor protesting, demanding reforms and change in zimbabwe. you've been released on bail, and you were charged with incitement to public violence, and so on. so, what is your status now? i mean, how free do you feel? i mean, you're talking to me very freely now — but, you know, what's the situation for you? zeinab, you do call me somebody who is part of the opposition, and, indeed, i was a member
12:40 am
of mutambara's movement for democratic change. however, i did leave the movement, and that was because of my disillusionment with the opposition, with the government, the ruling party, and with politics as an avenue for change. i felt that the political arena was not the arena in which i could usefully contribute to change. so, i wanted to get back to what i really love to do, which is my passion, and that is engage with how people think, how they imagine themselves, how they imagine their lives — and see what change can be brought about through transforming the way that people think and imagine themselves and their lives. so, ijust went back to concentrate on my creative work again. yes, that creative work does bring me into places where i have to engage with the government
12:41 am
and speak out about things that are not working for the citizens of zimbabwe. the situation in zimbabwe, as i see it, is that the ruling party, zanu—pf, has forgotten that it is actually contracted into power by the people, who put them there so that the government can work to create an enabling environment for all the people to prosper. zanu—pf has forgotten that, and think that authority belongs to them by some kind of divine right, as a result of winning the liberation struggle all on their own, as they seem to think. so, they have established a hegemony over the people. can i ask you this, though? because you paint this picture of zanu—pf, and yet there's some puzzlement,
12:42 am
because, you see, a senior zanu—pf official, patrick chinamasa, says, "i'm overwhelmed with defections from the opposition, mdc." i appreciate you're no longer part of the movement for democratic change, butjust making this general point. i mean, he says lots of applications, they want to join zanu—pf. some of those members, he says, are doing it for the first time, while some others are rejoining, because they were previously zanu—pf members. so, is the ruling party, the zanu—pf, gaining the upper hand over the formal opposition? i do think there are a lot of defections from various opposition parties — including the movement for democratic change — simply because those opposition parties have very little wiggle room to operate in. the repression has been so great that it is very difficult for people to exert any political opposition
12:43 am
that is effective. the other side of it is that people have to earn a living. generally, often, politicians in zimbabwe are not people with qualifications to do anything but politics. they tend, also, to be businesspeople. so, in order to be able to flourish in the arena of politics, they have to have a source of income. now, if zanu—pf is in this hegemonical position where they control everything — including the economy and business — it means that if you are in the opposition, you have no chance of survival. we saw last year that they actually stopped the money that parliament should vote into the account of the opposition until they could do some restructuring of the opposition themselves. and they quote marxist philosophy that says the best opposition is an opposition that you create yourself. so, they have been doing that diligently. so, they make sure that resources cannot flow to oppositional voices — and i think this is one reason that creates the pressure for people to join zanu—pf.
12:44 am
have you given up on any prospects for change in the near future? because you have been very accomplished in so many cultural spheres — as a film—maker, you're one of africa's leading artistic figures. i mean, your activism, as we see, is obviously very important to you. butjust thinking as an african here — you have said, "there is a global systemic issue to do with how the world has situated both zimbabwe and africa as a whole, and we are not able to break out of that mould." what do you mean by that? when i talk about the world situating africa and zimbabwe in a certain position, i'm talking about the history of european colonisation of africa, which goes back at least half a millennium. through this european colonisation of africa, structures have been developed, which — even though the political colonisation has dismantled — remain in the form of economic structures
12:45 am
and the social construction of the nation, the way education is framed, that keep us all within a certain framework of looking to europe as the emergent, powerful source of everything, and africa as the incompetent place, where we have to receive everything that europe has to give. so, it is this kind of thinking that needs to be disrupted. it needs to be disrupted on the continent because we africans, also, have internalised that position, and it needs to be disrupted elsewhere off the continent also. and is that the role of the artist? because you've talked about wanting to create a culture of blackness, a positive culture of blackness. i think the artist has a big role to play in changing the way we look at the world and different parts
12:46 am
of the world. in my case, the way i like to do this is to bring to light people who are walking through those worlds, so that we can see the very negative way in which the structures we have created impact on these people. and i hope that by seeing this, we can be energised and motivated to work to change those structures. but isn't the world changing now? there's a lot of debate now, not only in the united kingdom, but in germany — which you know well — in france, about the restitution of objects that were obtained, or looted, during the colonial era. things like the benin bronzes — you know, germany says it's going to return a whole load of them. we've got conversations about the decolonization of education curriculums, you know, started in south africa in 2015 and resonates
12:47 am
here at cambridge university, where you were also briefly a student. i mean, the world has moved on, don't you think? zeinab, i think that change is in process in the world, and i think that people are looking to change many of these structures that were set up over half a millennium. i don't think that the structures that were created over half a millennium can be changed within the span of, let's say, a decade, so it's an ongoing process. it's something we have to be invested in for the long term. then the other side of it is that the structures that were created in that time, over half a millennium, have thrown up entities like the african governments that we see that are still very much embedded within the global economic system. so, all of those things have to be dismantled, too. the very fabric of society in africa has to be changed so that we throw up different kinds of africans who are not going to take on the role of, really, destroying africa again the way these post—colonial
12:48 am
governments have done. right. i'lljust give you the quote from the late, great nigerian novelist, chinua achebe, who suggests that the west could, "derive some advantages from africa once it rids its mind of old prejudices and begins to look at africa not through a haze of distortions and cheap mystification, but quite simply as a continent of people, not angels, but not rudimentary souls either." i mean, you were a student at cambridge, you won a place in 1977. you left after 2—3 years because, you said, you just didn't fit in and felt that you'd experienced racism, and so on. i mean, how much progress do you think there has been from the time when you were at cambridge to getting to this point that chinua achebe now describes? i think there has been a lot of progress, zeinab. you're talking about nearly half a century — from the late �*70s until where we are now — and that's quite a chunk of time.
12:49 am
so, when i look back, i think if i were 20 years old today, i would have a very different life trajectory to the one i had, so i think that's fabulous. but how many of us end up in cambridge? how many of us african people end up at university, even? it's a tiny percentage. so, when i look back at the other people, i see that there has not been so much change and so much progress for them. zimbabwe is still around 70% rural, and definitely there has not been commensurate progress for that 70% of the rural population. i want to talk about women's rights, because that's important in yourart and activism, in your films and your writing, and so on. 0bviously, talked about your book, you know, this mournable body, the latest in the trilogy, where you've got key characters like tambu. you teach a little at a girls�* school, and as you yourself
12:50 am
said about how male predators prey on school girls. in fact, a survey by transparency international says 57% of women in zimbabwe say they�*ve been forced to offer sexualfavours forjobs, medical care, and all the rest of it. why does this kind of abuse persist? why do the authorities turn a blind eye to it? well, quite simply, zeinab, sexual abuse persists because of patriarchy. the authorities are patriarchal. they are the old men who went out nearly half a century ago to fight the war and came back triumphant, and they feel that they have the right to all the joys and benefits of being triumphant men — and that always includes the right to women�*s bodies. so, we cannot look to those kinds of leaders to change the society.
12:51 am
we have to look to the women themselves. one of the problems is that because traditional society had also become very conservative and very patriarchal, we have two sources of patriarchy reinforcing each other, and so many women in positions of influence are also patriarchal women, and so it becomes very difficult. women who fight against patriarchy in zimbabwe have very little room to manoeuvre because the society is controlled by patriarchal men and women. gosh, you paint a very bleak picture. but, look, we�*re seeing women marching in their droves all over the world, from australia to turkey, demanding greater rights and an end to the patriarchy. here in the united kingdom, there are moves to make misogyny a hate crime. how far do you think the plight of women in zimbabwe — which you have described — can be helped by a kind of global women�*s movement?
12:52 am
i think that women in zimbabwe can tap into a global women�*s movement, and i have done so myself. i think, at the end of the day, the change will come from the women themselves. we have to remember that, in zimbabwe, we are living in a country where people in their 50s and 60s today lived through the liberation struggle. during the liberation struggle, guerrillas would come with triumphant messages of freedom and how we were all to be liberated — but they also came with very grim and fearful messages of what would happen to anybody who was against them. often, these pungwes would happen during the liberation struggle. these were times when guerrillas would come into communities at night and bring people together. these pungwes would happen while somebody who was said
12:53 am
to be a sell—out was being tortured or murdered somewhere within earshot, and people were told with absolutely no doubt that they would be treated in the same way if they went against this incoming power. so, we have people who are in the grip of fear, so we are not going to rise up very easily. and women are in even more fear because they fear the men and they fear the state, and so women are also not going to rise up very easily. finally and briefly, you say that artistic production is your core activity, and yet you feel compelled to engage in what you call your on—the—ground activism. there could be a tension between the two, maybe not. i mean, how do you see yourself striking the balance? zeinab, the balance between my artistic production and activism is difficult. but if i do not engage in calling the government out
12:54 am
when i feel they need to be called out, i would really have increasingly less room to manoeuvre and to work in as a citizen of zimbabwe, as an artist. so, it is a balance i have to strike. at one point, i will have to do more activism. at another point, i will have more time and space to do my artistic production — and i really hope that the space to do my artistic production increases in the coming days. tsitsi dangarembga, in harare, zimbabwe, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk.
12:55 am
all eyes on the weather now that lockdown is slowly easing. and it�*s actually not looking too bad of the next few days. it is going to remain a little on the chilly side and we are certainly in for a frosty start to tuesday. but at least it�*s going to be a sunny one. you can see on tuesday that there�*s still a lot of cold air across the continent. we are in that cold air, it is still coming in from the arctic and it will take a while before things warm up. this is what it looks like early on tuesday. perhaps as low as minus eight celsius in the area of scotland and all the way down to the south coast. plenty of sunshine around and right from the word go, however clouds will be increasing from the morning and into the afternoon across some western and southern areas. it is not a completely dry day. we are expecting a few showers in the best of the weather will be across central parts and towards the north sea coast. temperatures ten to 12 degrees and actually not that far off the average
12:56 am
but we would like them closer to the mid—teens, especially across southern parts of the uk and at least into double figures in most areas. what about the next few days? the weather is going to remain dry because we have high—pressure centred across the uk and notjust across the uk, but it�*s spreading itself right across western parts of europe. so, a lot of dry weather in many areas and this is what it looks like early on wednesday. starting off a little misty in places, perhaps a touch of frost, but then in the afternoon, the weather is looking absolutely fine. might be one or two light showers here and there, with temperatures just about nudging up to the mid—teens, i think across southern parts of mid wales for example. here�*s a look at thursday. it does look as though we�*re going to pick up more of a breeze off the north sea here in the southeast. so the temperatures may drop a bit, around nine in norwich or ten in london. so, the higher temperatures later in the week will be across more western areas of the uk. there is a hint that things are going to be warming up as we head into the weekend.
12:57 am
see that cold air being pushed away? that is slightly milder atlantic air with the southerly wind sets and across the british isles, but not everywhere. i do think temperatures will be picking up as we head towards the weekend, the best temperatures will be across more western areas and as you can see, from the weather symbols, it is looking generally dry. goodbye.
1:00 am
this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. i�*m mike embley. a state of emergency and overnight curfew in minneapolis after protests at the shooting dead of another black american by police. the local police chief says it was an accident. during this encounter, however, the officer drew their handgun instead of their taser. iran blames israel for an attack on its nuclear site. a cyber attack. india records more infections than anywhere outside the united states — the world health organization warns the pandemic has yet to reach its peak. princes william and harry pay tribute
28 Views
IN COLLECTIONS
BBC News Television Archive Television Archive News Search ServiceUploaded by TV Archive on