dozens of people have been killed and scores more injured in a stampede at a jewish festival in israel. tens of thousands of ultra—orthodox jews had gathered at the foot of mount meron in the country's north to mark a jewish holiday. president biden�*s held a rally in georgia on his one hundredth day in office. he said that he wanted the very wealthy and corporations to start paying their share of tax. it's the first stop on a tour to urge americans to support his sweeping economic plans. actor noel clarke has denied sexual harrassment allegations that have appeared in a british newspaper. the report in the guardian led to the kidulthood and doctor who star having his bafta membership and an outstanding achievement award suspended. now it's time for hardtalk.

victoria for hardtalk. will be here on the top victoria will be here on the top of the hour with lots more of the day's news. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. today, i'm in the white cube gallery in london as cultural life starts to re—establish itself after many months of lockdown, and my guests are the artistic duo gilbert and george. now, for five decades, they've been producing controversial, provocative work, and this exhibition they call new normal pictures. but is there anything normal about gilbert and george? gilbert and george, welcome,

both of you, to hardtalk. thanks very much. very kind. very nice. we're sitting in this gallery space. this is your latest exhibition. it's called new normal pictures. is this your response to what the world has been through in the last year and more? that is, the covid pandemic and lockdown? no, not at all. the title of the show and the pictures predates the pandemic. we created the pictures before the pandemic. we only called it new normal because we were so interested that people in england use the term... what's the term they always use, gilbert? existentialism. and we wanted to find an english word for that, and so normalfor us would be the... so, this new normal of yours predates everything that's happened with the pandemic? yes, yes. all the design of all aspects of it... everything was ready. ..were done before the pandemic. but nonetheless, as i understand it, a lot of the composition, the working — and you do a lot of work on your pictures to bring them to this point — all that was done during the pandemic. yes.

because once we did finish the design, we have to do the one—to—one picture and that we did do in the pandemic. and it was fantastic, because we were alone doing exactly what we wanted. it's very interesting you say that, because i've read a lot about the way you live your life and the way you work, and itjust seems to me that your particular lifestyle probably wasn't that much impacted by everything that we've seen, with the isolation of lockdown, because you live a fairly isolated life anyway, don't you? yes. i mean, i think we were very conscious the whole time of the enormous human suffering, we can't not think of that every living moment, the number of husbands and wives and mothers and fathers and children and aunts and uncles and friends who are dying before their time. that's a very huge reality for all of us. but otherwise, i didn't think we were affected. not being allowed to go to restaurants, that was quite a shock. kissing waiters. no, we haven't kissed a waiter since christmas. extraordinary.

they laugh. but we all brought takeaway. we have bread, ham and cheese in the fridge. we had to empty ourfridge, which normally only has champagne in it, and put food in there. you're describing a life, you know, which has champagne in the fridge, where you eat out a lot because you don't like to cook, and yet the subject matter that you've chosen to focus on in this exhibition, the new normal, is — in many ways, it's quite dystopian. you know, what we see are images of your neighbourhood in london which focus on trash, refuse, the paraphernalia of drug use. and you two, as ever, appear in every picture. and you look, frankly, weary, beaten, deeply subdued by experience. is that the way you're feeling? it was quite, i mean, extraordinary, because we managed to create a world for ourselves now that we are

the centre of our art. that was very important. and that, from the very beginning, was a concept... in 1968—69, we made us centre of our art. like some artist do apples, some artists do a sky, we made ourselves. and then it became a journey through our life that was extraordinary. the journey — what are we confronting every single day? and that became our subject. and this subject, when we open our door in fullness... ..there we are. what do you call it? the drug bags are there, the newspaper there. all the beds are there. we don't have to create anything. we don't have to look for inspiration. inspiration of our world is there. but what does it say about you two? i'm looking over your shoulders to this particular picture behind you. you've titled it priority seat, and there you both are in your tweed suits, and you're at a bus stop and you're both slumped as though you've completely run out of energy. you look sort of befuddled and baffled.

i come back to this point — is that the way you are feeling today? you'd make a very good art critic. i love the description of it. it's marvellous. but is that the way you are feeling? we are involved in thought transference. so, like a writer does words that will put thoughts and feelings into the readers, so these images have to transfer thought, things that you can't put into word, exactly, you can put in pictures. they're very delicate examples of human existence, things we all know. as we step out of the front door of number 12, fornier street, we're stepping not out into the east end of london, we're stepping into a french street built on a roman cemetery, which, when we were students, was the yiddish—speaking district. we are five minutes from the dissidents cemetery. we have a mosque at one end, an anglican church at the other end, the opium den that oscar wilde went to was on brick lane, thejewish... all on brick lane. extraordinary world.

i want to come back to what you said, gilbert, about the journey. and you always place yourselves in the centre of this journey you've made, in the course of 50 years of creativity. if we were looking at some of your earlier works, on bbc television, we wouldn't be able to show some of the words and images, because over the years, and people remember you for it, in the �*70s, �*80s, you focused a lot on taboo subjects. you know, i'm thinking of the human body — all of it, all of the orifices, all of the bodily fluids, of the faeces, the urine, the genitalia — all in different ways were taboos that you put front and centre in your artwork. have you stopped doing that? no, i think all those pictures still exist. they travel the world. we have a show on in frankfurt at the moment with pictures we only want to de—shock, not to shock. sorry, you wanted to what?

to de—shock. what do you mean by...? to take the shock element out of it, to make it a normality that we can live with. not that anyone has to throw up the arms in fear and... just to get normal about things, yes. the germans would say, "why do you want to be provocative?" we never wanted to be provocative... because that would be very superficial. that'd be shallow. if you were just simply trying to evoke a shock... of course... ..that really wouldn't get us very far. we never, we never wanted to do that. we like to provoke thought, but not to be provocative — a very subtle difference. so, when you did that exhibition, which focused on your own faeces... we did two groups of pictures... ..what was the deeper meaning? we had enormous, enormous support for these pictures. and we still have.

imean... there's nothing in our pictures which is not also in the holy bible. it's not so shocking. yes. let's call it normal. we know that we are... we have bum holes. we have that. everybody has that. and everything is taboo because of religion. but do you think...? because of religion. it's only because of the wicked romans. if not, we'd be fine. yeah, but let's leave the romans aside. i'm just really interested in the journey you two have made over 50 years. do you think things that were deeply taboo and did get you, sort of, you know, a lot of publicity and a lot of notoriety in the 1980s, have they become much more sort of acceptable, that society, notjust you two have changed but society has changed? yes. what about sex? we knew that, 1967, when we were baby artists walking out of st martin's school of art, london was an entirely different place. england was an entirely different place. the world was a different place. and what has happened in those 50, nearly 60 years, we've been a small part of playing the change. we're very proud of that.

do you like the london, the england, the uk of today, better than that place that you began making art? 0h, we've always loved london. and of course... it's all the same evolution, we call it. one big walk that we are doing. and everybody, when we first started out, they all called us queers in all the art world. even the art critic — "oh, the silly queers' art." it was most extraordinary, because there was... ..the morality of that day was totally different, and we want to change the morality, that you can look at a naked person. in the renaissance, they were able to look at naked people who were doing whatever they want. why not today? and it is changing in an extraordinary way. and we were able to confront, even, like, the dirty

worth, no? that word, dirty, is at the heart of a lot of what you've done, because dirty, you know, doesn'tjust mean the literal sense of being soiled with dirt. unacceptable. in the english language, it carries this much deeper meaning, tied to sexuality, to bodily functions, where there are certain things we don't want to think about or be confronted with. but they all love it. all young people all love it. yes, we have a huge community now, not of tramps damaged by the first and second world war, they've all gone. we had thousands and thousands of tramps as students. and now we have a small community of people involved in drugs. and we were walking down whitechapel. .. even in your neighbourhood of london? yes. essentially, homeless people. yes, homeless... drug addicts. many drug addicts. there are several hostels. that's the new community, really. and we have a certain following amongst those people. they never went to an exhibition, they never saw a catalogue, but they understand that we have something of life for them. one of the things, profound things, that's changed

in the course of your lifetimes is that when you were growing up and entering adulthood, homosexuality was still criminalised in the uk. oh, yes. �*67 was decriminalisation. yeah. that's chimed exactly with our time leaving st martin's. i mean, we thought we were living in the centre of the universe in �*67. so, you couldn't be public about the fact you are not just an artistic duo, you were life partners. we didn't think of it in those terms. we don't really believe so much in the male and female, or the gay or the straight. we think of a more general, more human.... it was more sexy, yeah. but it was an amazing battle. it was an amazing battle from the art critics, non—stop attacking us for being two men together. it was all over the world and was extraordinary. but we won. we won. you think there was a deep—seated prejudice inside the art world? which you would think, frankly,

has a reputation for being more "the scapegrace i seem to be "ever since i was a little boy at school "a name has stuck to me "yes, i'm the black, black sheep of the family "everybody runs me down "people shake their heads at me "and say i'm a disgrace

to society "but i'll try my luck in the colonies "there, i'll rise or fall "and when i come back that sheep that was black "will perhaps be the whitest of them all." all we think that's very, very beautiful, and it means a lot to us as a song. he was thought to be the most handsome man in britain for 20 years. he was known in australia and north america. it's a marvellous song. it's fascinating to hear that. it's an extraordinary song. he wouldn't have been able to imagine what is the reality for you — that you two, of course, today, can marry. we are. we had a civil partnership, yeah. yeah. of course. i mean, his — fred barnes' father gassed himself at the horror of his son and fred barnes gassed himself at the end of his life. let me ask you this. you present yourself to the world as a unit. you know, you are an artistic single entity. one artist. one. that's the way you see it. we always say "two people, one artist." well, you call yourselves "living sculptures". yes. that was our invention, and it was the best invention. but, hang on, let me

continue the thought — so here you are, you are, let's face it, two individuals, but as far as you're concerned, you are one artist. how on earth does that work? are you telling me that over 50 years of productivity and creativity, you have never had a significant difference about the work you're doing? no, we didn't have it because we realised we had to succeed. and everything — nothing matters except succeeding, and we do. we are not there yet, but we are doing it every single day. but you are not the same person. you must have differences of artistic vision. you're not clones of each other. we remember very well the early years of our career together. the most common comment in the press, in the media, was "oh, it's very interesting, but of course it won't last — two people." they never lasted. they've all been divorced 17 times, not us, right? yeah. and the artists — many,

many are totally forgotten. but if i'm to take gilbert seriously, part of the reason you haven't divorced is that you simply can't afford it. you're right about that! which makes me a little cynical, you know, you've got something going here which, frankly, apart from anything else — as you've told me — many of the pictures we see around us have already sold, and i dare say sold for a great deal of money. you know, this is a business as well as a creative enterprise you're running. we need money, of course, but we created a living sculpture that is two people together — that we started in '68. that is our centre part of art. we created this living sculpture and we are walking through life and what we call confronting life in different ways. and that's our pictures. what we confront in our life is in our pictures, so we have all the subjects. our subject, that are inside ourselves, are part of universal thought. death. hope.

fear. sex. money. race. religion. naked. human. world. all the thoughts and feelings that lie inside everyone. and we are never run out of subjects, because they're, even getting old, it's an amazing subject for us! i know that all too well myself! but i'm not sure you've really answered my question about how you actually always work together as a unit... i think we never ask the question when we make our pictures, ever. and it's also true that we buy a newspaper in the morning. we watch television to check on the enemy at six o'clock every day and we know that, out there, there is a huge battle in every single aspect of human life, country to country, company to company, politician to pol — so it's an enormous... sorry, what's this battle? the world. it's a huge battle, yeah? but who do you regard as combatants? no, i mean, countries are fighting countries and people and companies are fighting companies. like democracy. we didn't want to be like that.

we didn't want to be fighting. democracy and totalitarian countries now, with the battle beyond belief. well, i want to get to more political questions in a minute, butjust let me finish with this personal stuff... we never ask that question, what goes, when we make our picture... but is one of you more the ideas person and the other the editor...? oo—h—h! 0h? oh-h-h! it... it doesn't — it doesn't work like that. but... remember, the world is divided into twosomes. it's the most common arrangement, even in the animal kingdom, twos. but we never ask that question. they don't always stay together, whereas you two have. but we never ask that question. normally, thejournalists, they do argue a lot. they say, "ah, the great heterosexual question" and people laugh immediately. we don't, and we taught ourself... we don't argue... ..we taught ourself. ..and we wouldn't

tell you if we did. no, i don't suppose you would, but could either of you imagine making art on your own? no. just as a side project? certainly not. never. because we invented ourself together. we invented ourself. before that, we were silly art students. but we went there because we were not that we created these two—people vision. but, i mean, ithink a german magazine once asked you "so, what happens to your art when one of you dies?" that's the great german question. yeah. only in... so, i mean, it's brutal, but it's serious. only in germany they ask that. if you can only imagine making art together, if one of you is no longer capable, do you just... you quit? i think we stop. we did nearly — we did nearly 8,000 artworks. it's too early to be thinking about that anyway. is it? you said death is one of your subjects and, of course, we all, as we get older, think about it more... it's the same question you can ask any two people in the world. you wouldn't ask the taxidriver "what are you going to do when your missus dies?" we just simply believe in the amazing power of culture, the world that we live in.

we are safe and free. you're not safe and free in every country in the world. we are safe and free in london town, in melbourne and in ottawa, and other countries because of culture. it's not the church. they didn't arrange it. the politicians didn't arrange the permissive society or anything else. writers and thinkers and picture—makers and poets, composers — they did that. mm—hm. it seems to me... you're more indebted to those. we accepted it. we always said we were conservatives. and i liked that. small "c" conservatives? yeah. and you certainly — look at the way you dress. i mean, you couldn't be trying to evoke a more, sort of, you know... normal appearance. ..conservative image with the way you look. and yet, as we've discussed already in this conversation, the subject matter is — is often deeply sexual, it's covering all of the taboos that we've discussed. you're sort of conservatives who then play, and have almost a joke at the expense... no, no playing. no playing.

but... nojokes. but dressed up like that, it's more powerful. you can get away with anything. is that why you do it? this is your camouflage? no... you can get a table in any restaurant in the world and we're hardly ever searched at airports. it's very good. very good. but we started out in 1968 because we were going to different galleries to sell ourselves, no? so we put on these suits at that time and then we call it the — what's it called? responsibility. the responsibility suits of our art. and that's the vision in 1969. i'm just wondering in the end whether there is an element of play to what you do... no. ..whether we should take you seriously or not. if you want to be simple about that, it's even more simple. as lower—class people, we were brought up that, on important occasions, you dress properly and nicely. if you go to a wedding

or a funeral or a christening or if you apply for a job or if you go for an interview, put on a suit and tie and do your hair nicely. for important occasions, yeah? and we believe that every single day of our life is important. and you call yourself a lower—class person... of course. ..but would it be fair to say that you have had a running battle with the art elite, the art establishment, because you think they don't give you the respect that you deserve? i mean, frankly, people like brian sewell and waldemar januszczak have dismissed your work with contempt as having no artistic value. we've had a lot of help from our enemies, that's true. but — but i am interested in where this feeling of yours comes from, that you're outsiders and that you're against — that the whole of the art world is against you. we never said that. we have enormous support from the art world. good heavens! we're feted wherever we go. you didn't know that? here's a quote from you, "in the art world, we once

said we were thatcherites. it was the worst thing we could say. it was like saying that you're a nazi paedophile or something. they will never forgive us for that," you said. "the art world is full of left—wingers who want to be millionaires." that's true. that's still true as well. they all became millionaires. if you say you're conservative to the taxidriver or the waiter, it's just an opinion. it's only in the art world they throw up their arms in amazement. it's quite silly. it is interesting... afterall, we — we —i mean, we were working—class people, starting out with nothing. it was an extraordinary journey that we did. and even that we managed to make an art that's completely different than any other art. and we — it's our vision. we create a new way of making picture for ourselves. and we created what's called the journey that is lived in, confronted lived like conservative or left—wing or right—wing or sexuality or religion that we hate in some big way. we are trite

and then, we call it the moral — what was it? moral dimension. the moral dimension that we create for ourselves — how to behave as a human being. moral dimension. that's quite interesting. over 50 years, you've sort of been in and out of fashion. there was — you did have a major retrospective at the tate modern, the leading, sort of, modern art gallery in london. but i think i'm right in saying that pretty much all of the pictures they own of yours, they're now no longer displayed. yes. does it hurt... ? that's why we create our own space. because they are all aimed towards different agendas all the time. mm—hm. but the last two years, we did six museum shows. your journey clearly isn't over, but if i — again, to be brutal about it — you're both in your 70s now. but we like our public. we like our public. that's why we're doing it. after all, we started off with the message in1968, '69, and we like that journey for the public. we want people in front of our art, we want them to be

affected by it. we're confronted by a vision of the world and that's why we like making art so much. gilbert and george, it's been fascinating talking to you. thank you very much for being on hardtalk. you're very kind. hello. april will continue to try to make amends with a bit more rain before the month is done during friday in the form of showers that will continue into the first weekend of may, and it will stay on the cool side with a risk of frost at night. and then for the bank holiday, look at this area of low pressure — a long way away but it's

coming for us on monday. until then, we find ourselves in the wake of low pressure. unstable air, meaning showers and the flow of air coming in from the north—east. some cool direction. temperatures below average for the time of year, and another frost out there for many, as we start the day for friday morning. rather patchy in nature, more likely in the countryside than in the town and city centres, but it will be chilly. there'll be plenty of sunshine. already a few showers running in towards the north sea coastal areas. but after the early sunshine elsewhere, some cloud is going to build and the showers break out more widely. some heavy, perhaps with hail and thunder. not everybody will catch them, though, and as for temperatures, it is quite cool, particularly along north sea coasts — many of us just in the range of 9—12 celsius. perhaps fewer showers in northern ireland compared with thursday, so more in the way of dry, sunny weather. as ever, the showers — not everybody�*s going to catch them — they will tend to fade away after dark overnight and into saturday morning and with another chilly start, with another patchy frost, but a lot of sunshine to start

the weekend, to start saturday. but wait for it, it all happens again. the shower clouds build, the showers break out, some heavy with hail and thunder. they will be wintry, too, over the higher hills and mountains, particularly in scotland. maybe temperatures a degree or so higher on saturday and the winds are light, so if you are in some sunshine, it will feel reasonable, as it will again on sunday after a chilly start, but the showers will get going once again. more cloud gathering out to our west — that's the area of low pressure i showed you coming in for the bank holiday. now, there's still something to play for in the timing of the arrival of this wet and windy weather moving in from the atlantic on monday. it may well be that the far north of scotland, the far south—east of england stay dry for a large part of the day before the rain gets in. but if you think rain is coming on the bank holiday, the winds are going to be picking up as well and it is going to still be on the cool side for the time of year, you won't go far wrong.

this is bbc news: i'm victoria fritz with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. in israel, dozens of people are killed in a stampede at a religious festival attended by tens of thousands of ultra—orthodox jews. my husband, the president of the united states, joe biden! president biden holds a rally in georgia, the first stop on a tour to encourage americans to support his sweeping economic plans. portugal's to see a major easing of its coronavirus of its border with spain. actor noel clarke denies sexual harrassment allegations after newspaper reports led to a suspension from bafta.