so it was a win—win situation. my work here is done. except it is not. now we've got operation mallard two! we have indeed. she came back four weeks ago and started looking around my balcony, she moved to another planter which has lots of grasses in it and she has decided she's going to nest there. we now have 11 eggs and everything is fine and we have got about another week to go. success, operation mallard, absolute success. here's to the next one. ian haslam, bbc news. now it's time for a look at the weather with louise lear. best of the sunshine was certainly first thing, shower cloud developed in the letter stages of the morning, some quite heavy and slow moving, if you are out during the early evening, worth bearing in mind. overnight showers tending to fade, under clearer skies we do it all again,

temperatures are likely to fall close to orjust below freezing, blue tones denoting where we see frost first thing in rural areas. chilly start to sunday, patchy mist easing away to sunny spells and scattered showers, once again these could be heavy with hail and thunder. all change for bank holiday monday, low pressure expected to come in off the atlantic, wet and windy weather arrives through northern ireland, gradually moving into southern scotland, north—west england and wales, perhaps staying showery in the far north, and south—east england should stay dry until the end of the afternoon. top temperatures 7—12 celsius. hello, this is bbc news. the headlines... a change in guidance on care homes — from tuesday, residents in england will be able to visit

relatives without having to self—isolate when they return. india becomes the first country to record 400,000 coronavirus infections in a single day. five people are arrested on suspicion of terror offences, including a 16—year—old boy, as police target three locations across the uk. and there's a warning that most of the uk's summer music festivals could be called off because they can't get covid cancellation insurance. now on bbc news, it's time for the media show. hello, why does so much of the media

now need a subscription? netflix, amazon, disney plus, i could go on and on. one terrain largely immune until recently has been podcasts. maybe not for much longer, because apple and spotify are rolling out a future that will let podcast is charged a affinity monthly fee to hear new episodes. is this the beginning of the end of the world of podcast to make as we know it, is this the consolidation of the industry around a handful of tech companies stifling new entrants, creaming off the biggest cars? or is this a wonderful thing? quality course, maybe customers should pay, enormous budgets thrown a tv drama, are we going to get a new calibre of podcasts that will blow our years of energy for a few quid each and every month? i have put together a panel of friends to talk this through. declan moore is the head of international for wondery, the publisher bride hits like catlike

dirtyjohn, no surprise that last december wondery was spot by amazon. caroline crampton writes about podcasts, she also hosted shedunnit unravelling the mysteries behind classic detective stories. imriel morgan founded her own podcast agency, content is queen, she predates if you herself, and from folder media, he is a co—founder of the british podcast awards and knows everything and everyone. —— she presents a view. casting you as god. we will find out soon.— we will find out soon. welcome, let's find out _ we will find out soon. welcome, let's find out a _ we will find out soon. welcome, let's find out a bit _ we will find out soon. welcome, let's find out a bit about - we will find out soon. welcome, let's find out a bit about the - let's find out a bit about the stories you have been telling. declan tell us about wondery, international hits, you have gone very british. yes, thank you for having me, we launched ourfirst non—us, international local

production, british scandal, we are excited about that, quite a number of number one shows, 33 and total in the us, including doctor death and the us, including doctor death and the shrink next door, six number ones in the uk, really excited to lodge our first ones in the uk, really excited to lodge ourfirst original ones in the uk, really excited to lodge our first original show hosted by alice olivia and forde. this is your account of the alexander litvinenko poisoning. let your account of the alexander litvinenko poisoning.- your account of the alexander litvinenko poisoning. let the naco looks around _ litvinenko poisoning. let the naco looks around the _ litvinenko poisoning. let the naco looks around the conference - litvinenko poisoning. let the naco| looks around the conference room, inside _ looks around the conference room, inside the — looks around the conference room, inside the room is crowded with journalist — inside the room is crowded with journalist lowe. he looks back at the agents. journalist lowe. he looks back at the agents— the agents. this we are not told about the federation _ the agents. this we are not told about the federation of - the agents. this we are not told about the federation of small i about the federation of small businesses _ about the federation of small businesses.— about the federation of small businesses. ., ., ., , , businesses. no, though hopefully we will at some — businesses. no, though hopefully we will at some point. _ businesses. no, though hopefully we will at some point. this _ businesses. no, though hopefully we will at some point. this is _ businesses. no, though hopefully we will at some point. this is what - will at some point. this is what used to be _ will at some point. this is what used to be the _ will at some point. this is what used to be the kgb. _ will at some point. this is what used to be the kgb. yes, - will at some point. this is what i used to be the kgb. yes, federal security service _ used to be the kgb. yes, federal security service of _ used to be the kgb. yes, federal security service of the _ used to be the kgb. yes, federal security service of the russian i security service of the russian federation that came in at the end of the _ federation that came in at the end of the soviet union. high production

values, a little _ of the soviet union. high production values, a little gentle _ of the soviet union. high production values, a little gentle humming - values, a little gentle humming music, who is your target audience? we place a tremendous emphasis on creating what we call emotional, emotive, immersive storytelling and transporting the listener into the shoes of the protagonist and where the action takes place. what we are doing is telling this story that many might rememberfrom doing is telling this story that many might remember from 2005 for a new audience and injecting a certain amount of humourand new audience and injecting a certain amount of humour and balancing things that say the laughs with the levity and bringing this toy to life. �* levity and bringing this toy to life. ~ , ., levity and bringing this toy to life. �* y ., y levity and bringing this toy to life. ~ , ., , ., levity and bringing this toy to life; , ., ., levity and bringing this toy to life. ~ , ., . ., life. are you trying to appeal to articular life. are you trying to appeal to particular people, _ life. are you trying to appeal to particular people, do _ life. are you trying to appeal to particular people, do you - life. are you trying to appeal to particular people, do you have | particular people, do you have research, iassume particular people, do you have research, i assume amazon have strong research. do you have a particular demographic or peeling people away from linear stations, and existing podcast market you feel there is a gap?— there is a gap? absolutely, there is to medicine — there is a gap? absolutely, there is to medicine opportunity _ there is a gap? absolutely, there is

to medicine opportunity for- there is a gap? absolutely, there is| to medicine opportunity for audience growth, 37% in the us are monthly listeners of podcast 2—mac, and two thirds who are not. in the uk latest figures is about 20—22%, so the whole space is going to rapid space —— pace and the stories we tell have appeal. new listeners discover podcasting for the first time and provide —— we are providing immersive stories. provide -- we are providing immersive stories.- provide -- we are providing immersive stories. ~ ., ., , ., ~' immersive stories. who do you think about our immersive stories. who do you think about your competition? _ immersive stories. who do you think about your competition? other - about your competition? other podcasts or linear stations? there is lots of of _ podcasts or linear stations? there is lots of of room _ podcasts or linear stations? there is lots of of room and _ podcasts or linear stations? there is lots of of room and space - podcasts or linear stations? there is lots of of room and space for. is lots of of room and space for audio consumption at great to see lots of new types of platforms that listeners can find and we are seeing with the growth, as they discover it and stories that they like, they are coming back for more, tremendously loyal, building relationships with the hosts, interested in these great stories that we are telling. is

the hosts, interested in these great stories that we are telling.- stories that we are telling. is this show, stories that we are telling. is this show. which _ stories that we are telling. is this show, which is _ stories that we are telling. is this show, which is new, _ stories that we are telling. is this show, which is new, exclusive - stories that we are telling. is this show, which is new, exclusive to | stories that we are telling. is this - show, which is new, exclusive to one particular podcast app? you have your own app that gives early access, so when you get a thing like this? , , . . . , this? yes, it is available everywhere. _ this? yes, it is available everywhere, is - this? yes, it is available everywhere, is on - this? yes, it is available | everywhere, is on music, this? yes, it is available - everywhere, is on music, apple podcast, wherever it is you get your podcast, wherever it is you get your podcast to make. there is the opportunity if you are a paying subscriber to access episodes that are out for you, and prior to general release.— are out for you, and prior to aeneral release. . ., . ., , general release. caroline, wondery is a us podcast _ general release. caroline, wondery is a us podcast company _ general release. caroline, wondery is a us podcast company that - general release. caroline, wondery is a us podcast company that has l is a us podcast company that has attracted huge investments before the amazon purchase, what can wondery offer the uk market that we do not already have? what wondery offer the uk market that we do not already have?— do not already have? what you mention. _ do not already have? what you mention, money _ do not already have? what you mention, money and _ do not already have? what you mention, money and funding, | do not already have? what you i mention, money and funding, we do not already have? what you - mention, money and funding, we have had some _ mention, money and funding, we have had some great ideas and creators in the uk _ had some great ideas and creators in the uk but _ had some great ideas and creators in the uk but we have not had a home—grown venture backed podcast studio— home—grown venture backed podcast studio that _ home—grown venture backed podcast studio that has pencilled thousands, if not _ studio that has pencilled thousands, if not more — studio that has pencilled thousands, if not more to spend on a single show _

if not more to spend on a single show i— if not more to spend on a single show. i think that is where wondery could _ show. i think that is where wondery could bring — show. i think that is where wondery could bring that. —— tens of thousands. could bring that. -- tens of thousands.— could bring that. -- tens of thousands. ., ., ., . , thousands. you were one of the early innovators in — thousands. you were one of the early innovators in this _ thousands. you were one of the early innovators in this field, _ thousands. you were one of the early innovators in this field, do _ thousands. you were one of the early innovators in this field, do you - innovators in this field, do you think it feels like there is an enormous exciting moment around you and you want to have a slice of it? there has been a view of those, i know_ there has been a view of those, i know people always look back to 2014 and the _ know people always look back to 2014 and the debut of the first series of catlike _ and the debut of the first series of catlike cereal, i always gauge these things— catlike cereal, i always gauge these things by— catlike cereal, i always gauge these things by how difficult is to explain _ things by how difficult is to explain myjob. —— series of cereal. give _ explain myjob. —— series of cereal. give me _ explain myjob. —— series of cereal. give me your— explain myjob. —— series of cereal. give me your phone, let me show you. do all— give me your phone, let me show you. do all i _ give me your phone, let me show you. do all i have _ give me your phone, let me show you. do all i have to say, i make a podcast — do all i have to say, i make a podcast and the question is, what is it? is _ podcast and the question is, what is it? , ., y ., podcast and the question is, what is it? , ., ., ., , podcast and the question is, what is it? ., ., ., it? is that you have other people as well? i it? is that you have other people as well? ithink— it? is that you have other people as well? i think so, _ it? is that you have other people as well? i think so, my _ it? is that you have other people as well? i think so, my dad _ it? is that you have other people as well? i think so, my dad has - it? is that you have other people as well? i think so, my dad has been l well? i think so, my dad has been throu~h well? i think so, my dad has been through an _ well? i think so, my dad has been through an illusion _ well? i think so, my dad has been through an illusion where - well? i think so, my dad has been through an illusion where he - well? i think so, my dad has been through an illusion where he used j well? i think so, my dad has been i through an illusion where he used to

think it _ through an illusion where he used to think it podcast was when he looked up think it podcast was when he looked up a dislike — think it podcast was when he looked up a dislike invasion of radio four, now he _ up a dislike invasion of radio four, now he listens to all kinds of things — now he listens to all kinds of things -- _ now he listens to all kinds of things. —— a listen again version. looking — things. —— a listen again version. looking at — things. —— a listen again version. looking at economics, you host your own show looking at golden age crime, how does that earn you money? different ways, i have a membership scheme _ different ways, i have a membership scheme associated with it, not dissimilar— scheme associated with it, not dissimilar to wondery, a platform i built myself where i have about 500 paving _ built myself where i have about 500 paying supporters who pay for early access, _ paying supporters who pay for early access, ad — paying supporters who pay for early access, ad free access and the committee goes with it, as well as bonus— committee goes with it, as well as bonus audio, also advertising, and when _ bonus audio, also advertising, and when i _ bonus audio, also advertising, and when i have — bonus audio, also advertising, and when i have time and energy i sell merchandise and get donations and grants _ merchandise and get donations and grants let— merchandise and get donations and rants. , . , merchandise and get donations and grants-_ what - merchandise and get donations and | grants._ what does grants. let us here a bit. what does an of this grants. let us here a bit. what does any of this have _ grants. let us here a bit. what does any of this have to _ grants. let us here a bit. what does any of this have to do _ grants. let us here a bit. what does any of this have to do with - grants. let us here a bit. what does any of this have to do with murder. any of this have to do with murder mysteries? — any of this have to do with murder

mysteries?— mysteries? these two forms of uzzle, mysteries? these two forms of puzzle. the _ mysteries? these two forms of puzzle, the crossword - mysteries? these two forms of puzzle, the crossword and - mysteries? these two forms of puzzle, the crossword and thel puzzle, the crossword and the classic fair play whodunnit, were exploding in popularity at the same time and this collector passion had a common source in the so—called puzzle craze of the period immediately following the first world war. the critic alison light has described the effect of murder mysteries in this period as the mental equivalent of pottery. the same could be said of word puzzles. people love whodunnits and crosswords because they are absorbing and distracting but not disruptive. absorbing and distracting but not disru tive. ., absorbing and distracting but not disrutive. . ., ., , disruptive. that would sound to my mind not at — disruptive. that would sound to my mind not at all— disruptive. that would sound to my mind not at all at _ disruptive. that would sound to my mind not at all at a _ disruptive. that would sound to my mind not at all at a place _ disruptive. that would sound to my mind not at all at a place on - disruptive. that would sound to my mind not at all at a place on radio i mind not at all at a place on radio four. argue trying to poach radio four. argue trying to poach radio four listeners? do you have a sense informed by data for your target market is? i informed by data for your target market is?— informed by data for your target marketis? . . . , ., , market is? i am certainly not trying to oach market is? i am certainly not trying to poach anybody. _ market is? i am certainly not trying to poach anybody, but _ market is? i am certainly not trying to poach anybody, but i _ market is? i am certainly not trying to poach anybody, but i do - market is? i am certainly not trying to poach anybody, but i do think. market is? i am certainly not trying to poach anybody, but i do think it| to poach anybody, but i do think it is a former— to poach anybody, but i do think it is a former that people are familiar with, _ is a former that people are familiar with. you _ is a former that people are familiar with, you get not the most accurate data necessarily from your podcasting hosting provider, but i

do get _ podcasting hosting provider, but i do get more listeners in the us than in the _ do get more listeners in the us than in the uk, _ do get more listeners in the us than in the uk, otherwise the other way around _ in the uk, otherwise the other way around when we started out. possibly the agatha _ around when we started out. possibly the agatha christie equivalent writers — the agatha christie equivalent writers are very attractive to anglo files in _ writers are very attractive to anglo files in the — writers are very attractive to anglo files in the us, but that was a surprise _ files in the us, but that was a surprise it— files in the us, but that was a surprise. it was more popular they are. , ., surprise. it was more popular they are. , . . , surprise. it was more popular they are. , ., .,, ,., surprise. it was more popular they are. , . , . are. this what was your instinctive resonse are. this what was your instinctive response to _ are. this what was your instinctive response to the _ are. this what was your instinctive response to the news _ are. this what was your instinctive response to the news that - are. this what was your instinctive response to the news that apple l are. this what was your instinctive i response to the news that apple and spotify are going to let people like you charge a subscription, does that appeal? i you charge a subscription, does that a. eal? .., ., you charge a subscription, does that aueal? ., ., ,, .,, you charge a subscription, does that anneal? ., . ,, ., ., appeal? i cannot say it appeals to me in 2021. _ appeal? i cannot say it appeals to me in 2021, i — appeal? i cannot say it appeals to me in 2021, |think_ appeal? i cannot say it appeals to me in 2021, | think if— appeal? i cannot say it appeals to me in 2021, 1 think if it _ appeal? i cannot say it appeals to me in 2021, 1 think if it had - appeal? i cannot say it appeals to me in 2021, i think if it had been l me in 2021, i think if it had been launched — me in 2021, i think if it had been launched five years ago people like me might — launched five years ago people like me might have been more interested. we all— me might have been more interested. we all have _ me might have been more interested. we all have around systems now, i have _ we all have around systems now, i have my— we all have around systems now, i have my own completely independent platform _ have my own completely independent platform company, like wondery has their own _ platform company, like wondery has their own app, they have big publishers like mpr on—board to offer— publishers like mpr on—board to offer subscriptions, but we all have built a _ offer subscriptions, but we all have built a road — offer subscriptions, but we all have built a road ecosystem and i personally think they have missed the window.

personally think they have missed the window-— personally think they have missed the window. . ,. . ~ , , the window. fascinating, matt, apple is not the first — the window. fascinating, matt, apple is not the first company _ the window. fascinating, matt, apple is not the first company to _ the window. fascinating, matt, apple is not the first company to do - the window. fascinating, matt, apple is not the first company to do it, - is not the first company to do it, declan's company as we mentioned, audible, is apple doing subscriptions fundamentally changed this industry? the subscriptions fundamentally changed this industry?— this industry? the one positive for a- le is this industry? the one positive for apple is they _ this industry? the one positive for apple is they make _ this industry? the one positive for apple is they make it _ this industry? the one positive for apple is they make it very - this industry? the one positive for apple is they make it very easy i this industry? the one positive for apple is they make it very easy to | apple is they make it very easy to start a subscription, so there might be a bit of a road you have to travel independently to get it to work as a consumer, but for apple it looks like buying an app, you can hit a button, you already have —— they already have your credit card details, less friction, but the downside, they will take 30% of your revenue for the first year, dropping to 15% for subsidence in the second year. not necessarily earning so much per user but you can get more money from more users.— much per user but you can get more money from more users. thinking of ounuer money from more users. thinking of younger listeners, _ money from more users. thinking of younger listeners, hearing _ money from more users. thinking of younger listeners, hearing all- money from more users. thinking of younger listeners, hearing all these| younger listeners, hearing all these people talk about how easy to get

into podcasting and that there is a gold rush, young lessor to have stories they want to tell, is it basically, with these new entrants, is it easier than ever, is it true to say it is easier to get into podcasting, set up a studio at home and build an audience that is paying? it and build an audience that is -a in: ? , and build an audience that is .a in? , ., ,y and build an audience that is -a inc? , .,. . and build an audience that is paying? it is easy to create audio, ou can paying? it is easy to create audio, you can get _ paying? it is easy to create audio, you can get that — paying? it is easy to create audio, you can get that somewhere, - paying? it is easy to create audio, you can get that somewhere, and | paying? it is easy to create audio, . you can get that somewhere, and get into the platforms, that is easy also. the question is if it is any good, and also the challenge that all media has especially digital media is how you get awareness, how do people learn it exist? a lot of podcasting grows from word—of—mouth but also promotion when you go to spotify or apple podcast puma, mentions in newspapers or online social media, so that is your challenge. one of the issues that smaller operators might face with the big guys doing a good job is getting squeezed out. is it harder

to find spots where people talk about your show where you can grow awareness? you cannot really grow a subscription business until you have a free to air audience first, so lots of places talk about converting free subscribers, so if you can convert one or 2% you still need hundreds or low thousands to get people to start paying, or they really have to really like you, that is the other option, can you create an amazing relationship with your audience which spikes your numbers where a high percentage of people are used —— now want to support you by subscribing? are used -- now want to support you by subscribing?— are used -- now want to support you by subscribing? because we are doing this on zoom — by subscribing? because we are doing this on zoom |— by subscribing? because we are doing this on zoom i can _ by subscribing? because we are doing this on zoom i can see _ by subscribing? because we are doing this on zoom i can see you _ by subscribing? because we are doing this on zoom i can see you all, - this on zoom i can see you all, you're started smiling when people wonder if it is any good, you must have all this into a lot of bad podcast about. you run content is clean, what is it? —— content is

queen. clean, what is it? -- content is queen. ~ ., , clean, what is it? -- content is queen. . . , ., clean, what is it? -- content is queen. ~ . _ queen. wannabe is a podcast by young women of colour _ queen. wannabe is a podcast by young women of colour who _ queen. wannabe is a podcast by young women of colour who are _ queen. wannabe is a podcast by young women of colour who are taking - queen. wannabe is a podcast by young women of colour who are taking their. women of colour who are taking their careers— women of colour who are taking their careers at— women of colour who are taking their careers at their own hands, so it is about— careers at their own hands, so it is about giving — careers at their own hands, so it is about giving them the tools they need _ about giving them the tools they need to— about giving them the tools they need to take consistent action to pursue _ need to take consistent action to pursue those careers. we speak to really _ pursue those careers. we speak to really high — pursue those careers. we speak to really high achieving at high profile — really high achieving at high profile people including writers and cartoon _ profile people including writers and cartoon creators. basicallyjust going — cartoon creators. basicallyjust going through their stories and journey, — going through their stories and journey, that is what we do with wannabe — journey, that is what we do with wannabe. with content is queen, it is about— wannabe. with content is queen, it is about community and helping you podcast _ is about community and helping you podcast is _ is about community and helping you podcast is entered the market successfully because it is so much harder— successfully because it is so much harder now— successfully because it is so much harder now to make something good that will— harder now to make something good that will be listened to, picked up and promoted. has that will be listened to, picked up and promoted-— that will be listened to, picked up and romoted. . , ., . . and promoted. has it got harder than when ou and promoted. has it got harder than when you started? _ and promoted. has it got harder than when you started? you _ and promoted. has it got harder than when you started? you die _ and promoted. has it got harder than when you started? you die did - and promoted. has it got harder than when you started? you die did a - when you started? you die did a piece together on this before. you have seen changes over the last few

years, what specifically has got harder? , ., . . ., harder? -- you and i did. harder to net the harder? -- you and i did. harder to get the word _ harder? -- you and i did. harder to get the word out, _ harder? -- you and i did. harder to get the word out, content - harder? -- you and i did. harder to get the word out, content is - harder? -- you and i did. harder to get the word out, content is queen started _ get the word out, content is queen started as — get the word out, content is queen started as a — get the word out, content is queen started as a podcast marketing agency, — started as a podcast marketing agency, that is what i am most referred — agency, that is what i am most referred for, where all my money comes— referred for, where all my money comes from, from podcast marketing specifically, it is a niche and a special— specifically, it is a niche and a special skill set because it is not hard _ special skill set because it is not hard to— special skill set because it is not hard to get people to click through and listen — hard to get people to click through and listen. there are things that is and listen. there are things that is a specific— and listen. there are things that is a specific way of marketing yourself and your— a specific way of marketing yourself and your show and talking about it, pitching _ and your show and talking about it, pitching your show, that a lot of new craters are not very good at because _ new craters are not very good at because they are not marketers or promoters — because they are not marketers or promoters. on top of that you also have _ promoters. on top of that you also have to _ promoters. on top of that you also have to make sure the content you are trying — have to make sure the content you are trying to promote is promote worthy. — are trying to promote is promote worthy, especially in the big places like the _ worthy, especially in the big places like the guardian or the natural times— like the guardian or the natural times let's hear a bit of wannabe. listeners— times let's hear a bit of wannabe. listeners can make up their own

mind. i listeners can make up their own mind. ., , �* ~ listeners can make up their own mind. ., �* ~ . , mind. i wasn't thinking about my mental health, _ mind. i wasn't thinking about my mental health, i— mind. i wasn't thinking about my mental health, i was _ mind. i wasn't thinking about my mental health, i was thinking - mind. i wasn't thinking about my i mental health, i was thinking about being the best i could be added that was my primary focus, i came second to that, which looking back was not the right decision, but it was what i committed to. for the most part i destroyed my mental health. it got to a point where i found it very hard to find joy in my life. i was so consumed by the negatives, but i think over time i found this balance, accepting this as the world we live in and this is the kind of discover nations that trans people face but i am doing my best in my ability to make that not happening but i need to give myself a break within it and that i cannot continue to live this way. d0 within it and that i cannot continue to live this way.— to live this way. do you find that interviewees _ to live this way. do you find that interviewees open _ to live this way. do you find that interviewees open up _ to live this way. do you find that interviewees open up on - to live this way. do you find that interviewees open up on a - to live this way. do you find that i interviewees open up on a podcast anyway that they might not on other media? i anyway that they might not on other media? ~' ,., anyway that they might not on other media? ~ ,., , media? i think so, there is something _ media? i think so, there is something about - media? i think so, there is something about not - media? i think so, there isj something about not being media? i think so, there is - something about not being seen media? i think so, there is _ something about not being seen that make you _ something about not being seen that make you far less self—conscious and

open _ make you far less self—conscious and open to— make you far less self—conscious and open to having a conversation. it also _ open to having a conversation. it alsojust— open to having a conversation. it alsojust comes down open to having a conversation. it also just comes down to how good you are asking _ also just comes down to how good you are asking questions and interviewing, and really being curious— interviewing, and really being curious and intuitive in the way that— curious and intuitive in the way that you — curious and intuitive in the way that you go about conducting these interviews, and i have done over 115 episodes, _ interviews, and i have done over 115 episodes, so— interviews, and i have done over 115 episodes, so i have had a lot of practice — episodes, so i have had a lot of practice and it has been iterating and i_ practice and it has been iterating and i have — practice and it has been iterating and i have been able to get bigger and i have been able to get bigger and bigger guests by virtue of having — and bigger guests by virtue of having a — and bigger guests by virtue of having a lot of practice of asking those _ having a lot of practice of asking those questions. i am still often getting — those questions. i am still often getting the response of, well, good question _ getting the response of, well, good question, no one has ever asked me that on— question, no one has ever asked me that on a _ question, no one has ever asked me that on a podcast. again, it is looking — that on a podcast. again, it is looking at— that on a podcast. again, it is looking at what the listener once but also — looking at what the listener once but also how curious i am about this person _ but also how curious i am about this person let— but also how curious i am about this erson. ., . ~ ., person. let me go back to something earlier, person. let me go back to something earlier. you — person. let me go back to something earlier, you said _ person. let me go back to something earlier, you said it _ person. let me go back to something earlier, you said it is _ person. let me go back to something earlier, you said it is getting - earlier, you said it is getting harder than ever to get the word out. some are listening to this saying, hang on, it is a gold rush, amazon are putting money out, social media platforms where it doesn't cost anything to go on instagram,

white is harder to get the word out about a podcast now than three or four years ago? it is about a podcast now than three or four years ago?— four years ago? it is really about the fact there _ four years ago? it is really about the fact there is _ four years ago? it is really about the fact there is a _ four years ago? it is really about the fact there is a letter - four years ago? it is really about i the fact there is a letter podcasts. it is saturation, not as saturated as utube — it is saturation, not as saturated as utube or— it is saturation, not as saturated as utube or any other media, but there _ as utube or any other media, but there is— as utube or any other media, but there is so— as utube or any other media, but there is so much out there and it is fully hard _ there is so much out there and it is fully hard to — there is so much out there and it is fully hard to distinguish what is good _ fully hard to distinguish what is good without pressing play, and presently requires a level of time commitment, so that is why we see, we lost _ commitment, so that is why we see, we lost a _ commitment, so that is why we see, we lost a fund in january where we gave _ we lost a fund in january where we gave our— we lost a fund in january where we gave our £10,000 to podcast creators were just — gave our £10,000 to podcast creators were just starting out or have established shows promise. from that result— established shows promise. from that result we _ established shows promise. from that result we saw that loads and loads of people — result we saw that loads and loads of people would like to spend money on cameras — of people would like to spend money on cameras and video setups because they want— on cameras and video setups because they want to — on cameras and video setups because they want to document their pod casting _ they want to document their pod casting video, because that is how they think— casting video, because that is how they think they will grow their show — they think they will grow their show. they see utube as the avenue in they— show. they see utube as the avenue in they will— show. they see utube as the avenue in they will be able to do that. it

is challenging without having a way, the race _ is challenging without having a way, the race know, besides an audiogram, depending _ the race know, besides an audiogram, depending on how well you do them, there _ depending on how well you do them, there is— depending on how well you do them, there is not— depending on how well you do them, there is not a tremendous amount out there _ there is not a tremendous amount out there to _ there is not a tremendous amount out there to promote a market ordeal, so it is harder— there to promote a market ordeal, so it is harderto— there to promote a market ordeal, so it is harder to get people to commit the time, _ it is harder to get people to commit the time, especially if you look at a new— the time, especially if you look at a new podcast, i do not have an hour and 40 _ a new podcast, i do not have an hour and 40 minister try out your new show, _ and 40 minister try out your new show. who— and 40 minister try out your new show, who has time for that? especially— show, who has time for that? especially if you are brand—new with no reputation. it is difficult. declan _ no reputation. it is difficult. declan a _ no reputation. it is difficult. declan, a weather if i could ask to that, you are here to talk about wondery, by wonder if there is, you might feel a little bit circumspect about the possibility that there is this enormous consolidation of power in the content business, and i wonder if you could respond to that, the danger that some smaller innovators might get crowded out. i innovators might get crowded out. i think it buys more opportunity for creators— think it buys more opportunity for creators because _ think it buys more opportunity for creators because there _ think it buys more opportunity for creators because there are - think it buys more opportunity for

creators because there are more i creators because there are more essential— creators because there are more essential output _ creators because there are more essential output —— _ creators because there are more essential output —— outlets - creators because there are more essential output —— outlets for. essential output —— outlets for their— essential output —— outlets for their stories _ essential output —— outlets for their stories details _ essential output —— outlets for their stories details and - essential output —— outlets forl their stories details and greater audiences— their stories details and greater audiences to _ their stories details and greater audiences to listen _ their stories details and greater audiences to listen to _ their stories details and greater audiences to listen to those - audiences to listen to those stories _ audiences to listen to those stories we _ audiences to listen to those stories. we have _ audiences to listen to those stories. we have a - audiences to listen to those stories. we have a lot - audiences to listen to those stories. we have a lot of. audiences to listen to those - stories. we have a lot of producers in the _ stories. we have a lot of producers in the uk _ stories. we have a lot of producers in the uk who— stories. we have a lot of producers in the uk who are _ stories. we have a lot of producers in the uk who are working - stories. we have a lot of producers in the uk who are working with - in the uk who are working with companies _ in the uk who are working with companies in _ in the uk who are working with companies in the _ in the uk who are working with companies in the us _ in the uk who are working with companies in the us for- in the uk who are working with companies in the us for their i in the uk who are working with - companies in the us for their shows, and i_ companies in the us for their shows, and i feel. _ companies in the us for their shows, and i feel, providing _ companies in the us for their shows, and i feel, providing more _ companies in the us for their shows, and i feel, providing more choices i and i feel, providing more choices going _ and i feel, providing more choices going to _ and i feel, providing more choices going to help— and i feel, providing more choices going to help us— and i feel, providing more choices going to help us oar— and i feel, providing more choices going to help us oar us _ and i feel, providing more choices going to help us oar us help- and i feel, providing more choices going to help us oar us help us. and i feel, providing more choicesl going to help us oar us help us all. for sure. _ going to help us oar us help us all. for sure. we — going to help us oar us help us all. for sure, we need _ going to help us oar us help us all. for sure, we need more _ going to help us oar us help us all. for sure, we need more stories- going to help us oar us help us all. for sure, we need more stories to| for sure, we need more stories to come _ for sure, we need more stories to come into— for sure, we need more stories to come into this _ for sure, we need more stories to come into this space _ for sure, we need more stories to come into this space goes- for sure, we need more stories to come into this space goes a - for sure, we need more stories to come into this space goes a lot. for sure, we need more stories to come into this space goes a lot of| come into this space goes a lot of errors— come into this space goes a lot of errors are — come into this space goes a lot of errors are underrepresented - come into this space goes a lot of errors are underrepresented and i come into this space goes a lot of. errors are underrepresented and we are really— errors are underrepresented and we are really at — errors are underrepresented and we are really at the _ errors are underrepresented and we are really at the early— errors are underrepresented and we are really at the early days - errors are underrepresented and we are really at the early days in - errors are underrepresented and we are really at the early days in the i are really at the early days in the evelyn, _ are really at the early days in the evelyn even— are really at the early days in the evelyn, even though _ are really at the early days in the evelyn, even though we - are really at the early days in the evelyn, even though we are - are really at the early days in the evelyn, even though we are 15. are really at the early days in the i evelyn, even though we are 15 years into it. _ evelyn, even though we are 15 years into it. but — evelyn, even though we are 15 years into it, but still— evelyn, even though we are 15 years into it, but still the _ evelyn, even though we are 15 years into it, but still the early— evelyn, even though we are 15 years into it, but still the early days - into it, but still the early days are becoming _ into it, but still the early days are becoming that _ into it, but still the early days are becoming that mass - into it, but still the early daysl are becoming that mass media consumption _ are becoming that mass media consumption outlet. _ are becoming that mass media consumption outlet. [- are becoming that mass media consumption outlet.— consumption outlet. i actually completely — consumption outlet. i actually completely agree, _ consumption outlet. i actually completely agree, the - consumption outlet. i actually completely agree, the last - consumption outlet. i actually i completely agree, the last time i was on _ completely agree, the last time i was on the media show one of the heads _ was on the media show one of the heads of— was on the media show one of the heads of the bbc said the same thing. _ heads of the bbc said the same thing. it— heads of the bbc said the same thing. it is— heads of the bbc said the same thing, it is a good thing of the bbc and other— thing, it is a good thing of the bbc and other places entered this because _ and other places entered this because it creates a bigger expansion, more listeners come and

they trickle — expansion, more listeners come and they trickle down, landing on the independent pod cast us, but the average — independent pod cast us, but the average new podcast only sees around 136 lessons _ average new podcast only sees around 136 lessons per episode, that was the latest — 136 lessons per episode, that was the latest stats last year. whilst it is true — the latest stats last year. whilst it is true that it is becoming more well-known— it is true that it is becoming more well—known as a it is true that it is becoming more well— known as a term and people know what it _ well— known as a term and people know what it means when you say a pod cast, _ what it means when you say a pod cast. in _ what it means when you say a pod cast, in terms of the discoverability as an independent creator. — discoverability as an independent creator, that is still remaining to be seen. — creator, that is still remaining to be seen, you still need to have a relationship with a curator on a platform — relationship with a curator on a platform in a note of your podcast to be _ platform in a note of your podcast to be on _ platform in a note of your podcast to be on the front page to be clicked — to be on the front page to be clicked on and discovered, so it needs. — clicked on and discovered, so it needs. yes _ clicked on and discovered, so it needs, yes and no is the answer. caroline, — needs, yes and no is the answer. caroline, you _ needs, yes and no is the answer. caroline, you are noting. | caroline, you are noting. i completely agree, caroline, you are noting. i completely agree, adding that when podcast into the general vocabulary is great and big publishers like the bc ad others do that, if you're listening to abc podcast at the aduu listening to abc podcast at the adult seeing now go and listen to content is green, how do i know it

exists? —— content is clean. the rising tide lives all boat metaphor only works to a certain extent. where does the bbc fit into all of this? what do you reckon this all means for them? can bbc sounds complete with spotify etc?- means for them? can bbc sounds complete with spotify etc? there is a bi battle complete with spotify etc? there is a big battle going _ complete with spotify etc? there is a big battle going on _ complete with spotify etc? there is a big battle going on between i complete with spotify etc? there is| a big battle going on between apple and spotify, they are the two big players. apple historically did very well, they help birth podcasting at the beginning, they started the consumer podcasting boom. spotify have done a much betterjob in the past to years of promoting pod casts, building up there at, numbers out today, the hygiene 80 million people use a spotify every month. —— 380 million people. one of the dangers is, that could be independent creators, you fall down

the cracks in between that battle, and spotify and apple are speaking their devices and apps and services, some of that is built on content from bbc, the people on this programme also, i get is not like netflix where they are writing paycheques to all craters, they are offering a way to make money or reach audiences, but they are also competitors. if you look and spotify they make their own shows, or a lot of companies that do that, not only are you trying to get your show promoted on their platform, you're also competed against programmes. that will be more of a challenge, you add subscription to that, it is difficult. the bbc, massive scale, great programmes, bbc sounds does well, but can they put some prediction into their app? probably not, open to a lot of problems. dash

might put subscription. it becomes a new competitive place for the bbc, and they still find the same challenges that smaller craters do with getting content promoted. our —— creators. also they are battling for space on apple's podcast or. people may not know the sort of sums we are talking about, spotify paid joe rogan $100 million to make his podcast exclusive to them, wondery and amazon, amazon paid $300 million, declan you did not have to confirm that you can tell us if it is wildly wrong. caroline, people are worried that when you have influences of californian west coast companies, you have a culture of homogenisation. netflix, disney would say they put employ local

people, but you do have the stories that define our culture being funded from a patch of earth on the west coast of america, do you worry about what i will do to podcasting? i do what i will do to podcasting? i do not worry about _ what i will do to podcasting? i do not worry about it _ what i will do to podcasting? i do not worry about it so much in relation — not worry about it so much in relation to— not worry about it so much in relation to california or anyone please, — relation to california or anyone please, but i think the boom in podcasting and its success has given a homogenisation of sound. people here are _ a homogenisation of sound. people here are really successful true crime — here are really successful true crime shows, and others think they have that, — crime shows, and others think they have that, it— crime shows, and others think they have that, it have a silly different country. — have that, it have a silly different country, but maybe if i make it sound — country, but maybe if i make it sound like _ country, but maybe if i make it sound like that, fans of thatcher will also — sound like that, fans of thatcher will also like my show, and it is getting — will also like my show, and it is getting to — will also like my show, and it is getting to the point where it is being — getting to the point where it is being parried on saturday night live _ being parried on saturday night live~ -- — being parried on saturday night live. —— fans of that show. that kind _ live. —— fans of that show. that kind of— live. —— fans of that show. that kind of homogenisation is deftly something i'm aware of. one kind of homogenisation is deftly something i'm aware of. one thing i would imagine. _ something i'm aware of. one thing i would imagine, what _ something i'm aware of. one thing i would imagine, what is _ something i'm aware of. one thing i would imagine, what is encouraging| would imagine, what is encouraging for people in the free distribution tiers, we have marketers and

advertisers coming into this space because they see the audience growth. there was a report last week on digital media, podcasting had the highest increase in advertising investment in the uk of any digital medium, up 43%. that provides more funding into this space for those who are creating great stories that need to be told.— who are creating great stories that need to be told. thank you so much, declan moore. _ need to be told. thank you so much, declan moore, caroline _ need to be told. thank you so much, declan moore, caroline crampton, i need to be told. thank you so much, i declan moore, caroline crampton, max deegan, and imriel morgan. iwill be back next week, thanks for your time. best of the sunshine was certainly first thing, shower cloud developed in the letter stages of the morning, some quite heavy and slow moving, if you are out during the early evening, worth bearing in mind. overnight showers tending to fade, under clearer skies we do it all again,

temperatures are likely to fall close to orjust below freezing, blue tones denoting where we see frost first thing in rural areas. chilly start to sunday, patchy mist easing away to sunny spells and scattered showers, once again these could be heavy with hail and thunder. all change for bank holiday monday, low pressure expected to come in off the atlantic, wet and windy weather arrives through northern ireland, gradually moving into southern scotland, north—west england and wales, perhaps staying showery in the far north, and south—east england should stay dry until the end of the afternoon. top temperatures 7—12 celsius.

this is bbc news — i'mjane hill. the headlines at 5:00pm: a change in guidance on care homes — from tuesday residents in england will be able to visit relatives without having to self—isolate when they return. relatives welcome the move. the difference in my mother is remarkable and it has been commented on. the light is back in her eyes. the light is back in her eyes. india becomes the first country to record 400,000 coronavirus infections in a single day. people from a south asian background were at a greater risk of hospitalisation and death in the second wave of covid, according to a new study. five people including a 16—year—old boy, are arrested on terrorism offences in west yorkshire, wiltshire and north wales.