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tv   Dateline London  BBC News  May 2, 2021 2:30am-3:01am BST

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on sunday after friday 5 deadly crush at a jewish pilgrimage. 45 men and boys died after being trapped in a narrow walkway during the festival at mount meron, attended by up to 100,000 mostly ultra—orthodoxjews. india's expanded vaccination drive — offering all adults over the age of 18 a jab — has stalled with some states forced to close centres after running out of vaccines. the country is in the grip of record levels of covid—19 infections, reporting more than 400,000 cases in the last 2a hours. the head of the us—led military mission in afghanistan has warned against attacks on foreign troops as they start to withdraw, saying they had the means to " respond forcefully." the comments come after the taliban said they were no longer bound by an earlier commitment not to attack international forces. now on bbc news,
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dateline london. hello. i'm shaun ley. welcome to the programme which brings together some of the uk's leading commentators, uk specialists and the foreign correspondents filing and blogging to audiences back home from the dateline: london. this week: embarassment for borisjohnson over who originally paid for his wallpaper, but does it really deserve the days of headline coverage devoted to it? and the world rallies to india's aid, but is it too late to halt the virus�* deadly course? joining us to discuss those questions, ashis ray, indian foreign correspondent who's reported from london since the 1970s, steve richards, uk political
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commentator who's even turned his journalism into a successful stage performance. and with me here in the studio, lyse doucet — a canadian whose passports must be thick with immigration stamps by now, having reported from so many parts of the world. no wonder she's our chief international correspondent. lovely to see you again, lyse. and good to have you with us, steve and ashis. now, when in london, british prime ministers live over the shop, as it were. borisjohnson, his partner and their young son occupy an upstairs flat in downing street. for the entire week, the news media here has been transfixed by this question. who originally paid for it to be refurbished to the prime ministerial family's taste? though mrjohnson says he's paid for it, his coyness over the alleged involvement of his conservative party — and perhaps one of its donors — has now prompted an official investigation into a possible breach of election law. steve, there could be people watching this who think, "i don't really care who paid for borisjohnson�*s refurbishment, "provided its not me."
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yeah, and there is evidence in vox pops around the country, with elections in britain scheduled for next week, where that is a view. i think it is a misguided view for several reasons. first of all, it's not so much about the detail, as the principle. whether a prime minister should comply with the rules outlined to to some extent, constrain and hold prime ministers to account as to who funds what. and it's also part of a pattern where borisjohnson appears to be, if i can put it politely, more casual with the rules than many of his predecessors. and that applies on a much bigger stage, threatening to break international law, breaking the law over proroguing parliament. questions of integrity, but very briefly, they are obvious and common. i think it raises issues aboutjudgment and trust — who a prime minister trusts, when people are leaking all over the place, including apparently,
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allegedly some in number 10 who work for him. what does it say about his judgment, that he appoints dominic cummings to the most powerful place in government, and he now is accusing him of being notjust a liar, but also a deranged liar. it raises many deeper issues beyond his taste for wallpaper. and it probably isn't his taste, it's his fiancee�*s taste. that raises another issue about the nature of their relationship, which is never talked about publicly, he does not have to. but now that's being drawn into it, and he will hate that because he doesn't like talking about his personal life. for many reasons, a lot of talk in britain about... it has no cut—through with voters, but it will affect the mood of number 10 and the government and johnson's leadership in quite profound ways. one way or another, ashis ray, it is an extraordinary distraction because it seems to be consuming...
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the media can report whatever stories they want and it doesn't matter if it's consuming their time, but it is consuming the time of the prime minister, the cabinet secretary, who is the most senior official in government, cabinet ministers desperately trying to find words that don't look like a commentary on it and avoid answering questions on it. parliament, the opposition seems obsessed about it and frankly, there are probably much more important things the government should be focused on. you're absolutely right. you said that i've been a foreign correspondent here since the 19705, which is indeed true. i came here whenjames callaghan was prime minister and i can say this much, that no prime minister in my memory has been under so much pressure as borisjohnson has been in the past one week for his personal conduct. and this is serious because now that the electoral commission has taken up the matter, it is going to investigate it and it sees reasonable grounds for an offence
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or offences having occurred. that is a very serious statement from the electoral commission and this story, whether it impacts on the local elections or the mayoral elections on 6th may or not, is probably not going to go away so easily. it could have a medium—term, if not long—lasting impact and therefore, i think there should be reason for concern in the conservative party because it is the party that is now under attack, because the investigation will look into the party's conduct as well and tell, penalise the party if any wrongdoing has been discovered. that said, this may not be the only inquiry because the parliamentary standards commissioner may look into the matter as well. lyse, as you have said,
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this is now the eighth prime minister and if my maths is right, ashis has reported on from london. you travel internationally constantly. at least, normally, covid aside, you travel constantly. how do you think this compares with the treatment of political leaders? i know he is not the head of state, but nonetheless, he is the most important politician in our country. how do you think this looks internationally? i think even domestically, - when you get up in the morning and you hear and read and it's all about curtains and sofas i and wallpaper and when there are huge issues —| steve mentioned the t—word, trust, but also transparency — do we really know what really happened? _ and is this a microcosm - of where we are not getting the full story, not just - for boris johnson, but about the conservative partyl and politics in general? it is emblematic of something wider, if you like. _ but internationally, - 10 downing street is notjust a property, it is a symbol of british status, power, | the whole aura, if you like.
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the back door with the silver lettering. yes. it is known. if you say 10 downing . street almost anywhere in the world, people know. so... people do find it odd . that the prime minister, to use your expression, lives above the flat - and when i travel, i have - interviewed many world leaders and they live sometimes in literally in palaces - and sometimes it is surreal. because i've often noticed that sometimes in the countries that are falling apart, - they still have _ the bone china, the curtains, the lovely chintz sofas, everything properly- in its place, even though it's - complete pandemonium outside. but i've never, ever- heard people discussing the cost of curtains. you know, you hear about renovations, but not - in this way and certainly not connecting the leaders. - so is this really symptomatic of the politics we are living l in, where nothing is beyond the pale? . where, especially with social media, especially with -
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really divisive and fractured politics, that these - sorts of issues are fair game, if you like? - ashis, iwonder, given the detachment you enjoy by being an outsider looking in for many years — and you mentioned jim callaghan, who most people would say was, regardless of his party politics, was a model of rectitude on things like this and would probably be the kind of old—fashioned policitican who would be quite appalled with people talking about things like sofas and curtains, when there are so many big issues. do you think one solution would be to start paying our prime ministers properly? i think that is an argument which can be debated and tossed about in parliament, for instance. but the sum that the prime minister earns is not inconsiderable, so if he is out of pocket for any reason, there must be something to it.
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obviously, he earned a lot more money writing for the telegraph and also doing lectures, including india, where he was very handsomely paid once for a lecture in 2019, if i'm not mistaken. so yes, his income has come down, but he also has, even while being prime minister, income from royalties from his two books, he has got two properties and rental income, so it is adding up. it's not as if he is living in poverty. but, in this case, it is a matter of principle. i am reminded of a case more than 20 years ago. a lot of you may remember this, which is of peter mandelson having to step down as secretary of state because he had borrowed money from a fellow mp and a fellow minister, geoffrey robinson. the actual loan that was given
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to mandelson to buy a house in london, was given to him before the labour party came into government in 1997. but since the matter came to light while he was the secretary of state, he had to step down, so that was certainly the standard that was applied and therefore, in this case, whether the original money came from a loan or a grant, i think that's bad enough because we all know that people, businessmen in particular, do not lend or give aid unless there is something in return and that is where it gets really murky. that it gets so murky at the level of prime minister is to me a little disturbing. we don't know the details of it, of course. the prime minister says, "i have paid for it."
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and as far as he's concerned that's the end of the subject. steve, this may not imminently bring borisjohnson�*s career to an end, but is there a possibility that this will shorten the amount of time he has left in downing street, do you think? it depends on what happens with the opinion polls. i think it could anyway, if he finds it all just too hellish in the coming months. but that apart, he has this protective shield of opinion poll leads and while they are in place colleagues, while viewing him privately with some wariness these days — and in fact all the way through — will not move against him because he still seems to be a winner. —— vote winner. if that changes, he is on a really slippery slope. but i want to contextualize this. there's a myth in britain that sleaze alone can bring down prime ministers. john major is cited.
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other factors have to play into it, there has to be voter perception of economic incompetence was major when it came to falling of the exchange rate. there has to be a dynamic alternative as there was seemingly in the mid—90s with tony blair in new labour. there have to be other factors for it to have that fatal impact and sleaze alone, there is a pattern where voters turn away and actually, you mentioned callaghan, harold wilson before him had a lot of sleaze there and won four elections out of five. there needs to be other issues whirling around as well him this vaccine roll—out being very successful in britain, that does not apply at the moment. but it might well do when the economic consequences of the pandemic are addressed along with all the other chaotic things going on in number 10, including brexit.
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so, otherfactors might also come into play. we will find out any i local elections, then, what the people think - because it will be a barometer of whether this is just . on the political classes, as important as it is. there are three, possibly four investigations here, - so there must be something serious in this, but the sun. is shining, britain has one - of the most successful vaccine roll—outs in the world, - we are hearing there is going to be an economic revival. how are people going to vote? are they going to vote? - but how are they going to vote? and does this really matter to the british public - in the same way that it matters to our conversation— today and to the pundits and parliamentarians? l as you say, we will be discussing that of course next weekend's edition of dateline: london. steve mentioned that harold wilson, jim callaghan�*s predecessor, if you want to know what that is all about, just go onto your computer and typing ganax raincoat and see what comes up.
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journalism is rapidly running out of words descriptive enough to capture the scale and horror of the covid crisis gripping india. as the world's second most populous country, it's no surprise that the number of people who've contracted the virus is measured in millions, or the number of deaths in hundreds of thousands. almost every day recently, the number of infections has reached a record high. yet, measured as a percentage of population, india's fatality rate is relatively low — much lower, say, than the united states or britain. i was looking at the figures on one of the sites, thejohn hopkins university site, and they have india down at 14.5 people per 100,000 in terms of mortality rate. even the uk's 191. the us is 175. we were hit badly in the first wave. how credible are these
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mortality figures in the light of the international comparison? the official figures are to fatalities in india not being at the level of what has occurred in the united kingdom or the united states. and we are talking about the percentage of the population. but i would venture to say — and this is expert opinion that has come from the medical fraternity— and it has come from eyewitness accounts and has come from what i would call circumstantial evidence — the figures do not appear to be correct. and this is not merely pertaining to this year, but also last year. what is being said is that right at this moment, the figures are way below what is reality and that being the case, i think there is reason to worry and i don't know if india in percentage terms will go past other countries but for the moment, it is a very grim situation.
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if you take an aerial view of delhi it would appear as if there has been a bombing raid over the city because fires are burning everywhere. fires are burning in car parks, public parks, back gardens, these are all funeral pires because the crematoriums cannot cope. it is a devastating scene and i think that tells you how serious this story is. the government is at its wits' end and india, which has a very good team of doctors nationwide does not have infrastructure and this is a modi—made crisis because we had one year to prepare for the second wave, but didn't, modi declared
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victory and he told the world economic forum that he saved humanity and yet, this was always a possibility and so when it struck, he and india were completely unprepared. as ashis says, there was a year of grace period almost, some governments saying that the worst is over and that we've got vaccines that solve the problem. a vaccination on its own is not enough, even if you can roll it out, india has had some difficulty with that. the economist reported this weekend, the tribal of northern maharashtra which has, not a lot of money, but spent his budget on things like ensuring all hospitals could generate their own oxygen. there are people who have thought ahead. not all the officials have been sitting in their hands, waiting for political direction from above. other people thought ahead and others set on their hands waiting for political direction from above. but that underlines, makes the governments performance in this look even worse, doesn't it? as always, when you see - a crisis of these proportions, it is in these most inhumane . moments where you see these
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moments of shining humanity. you mention this personj who took it upon himself to prepare, but every time we see an absolutely - heartbreaking report from newl delhi or mumbai or another part of india, there is also - the heart—warming stories about how local people are coming together. with whatever means they have. you have the local businessmen collecting the oxygen _ canisters, you have the big businessmen providing - helicopters to fly people to places where there i are hospital beds - available in icu units. so indians _ are pulling together. i have to say is it _ because there is such a large community here in britain - with south asian ancestry or is it the scale of the crisis? but everyjournalist, - and i don't know whether ashis and steve are the same, but every time you hear- a journalist reporting - from india, they say they also have a personal note, they say, i have lost a friend, _ i have lost a family. when i wake up in the morning,
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the first thing i do— is check who i have lost that is close to me. - and the bbc's wonderful team, strong team in india doing - fantastic reporting, - but you can see they are also worried about their friends and family. _ theyare— worried about themselves. the number of people. on social media saying, my friend needs oxygen, does anyone know where i can get an oxygen canister? - does anyone know - where i can get a bed? social media is pulsating - with the passion and the fear and the cries for help. and it is a reminder, steve, isn't it, that this is one of the situations in which social media really earns its spurs and justifies the amount of attention, resources and money that are thrown into it? why it really matters. it is life and death for many communities. yeah, no, social media is in many ways an enabler and does empower people at a local level, not least in a crisis, where there has been a kind of leadership vacuum. it is odd that india escaped
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early on, but it has engendered this complacency at the top. and the lack of that national leadership, the lack of smart ways and networks to distribute, especially the vaccine, has led to this sort of panic stricken dependency on goodwill and local communities acting in this way. but it is desperate. i find it unwatchable, and that image just evoked of the equivalent of a bomb hitting delhi is unbearable to contemplate. and the worry, of course, is that although social media can mean the people can communicate and coordinate, the power to resolve and to instruct remains with leaders, as we know from our experiences here. and that has been lacking, with terrible consequences.
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ashis, you mentioned borisjohnson and we have said on balance the scandal in inverted commas about the refurbishment may not have much political impact on his prospects of remaining prime minister, but this is a real scandal and it is one that is costing thousands of lives on a weekly basis. do you think there will be a significant political backlash against mr modi, notwithstanding the kind , kindness of strangers going to help people in a crisis? whether the anger will actually be demonstrated against the bjp in coming months? well, at the moment there is deep and rising anger, but it is too early to tell whether it will lead to modi having to step down. at the moment he has done everything wrong. for instance, india, as you know, has a company called serum institute, which is the biggest manufacturer of vaccines in the world. and the serum institute had acquired the licence
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from oxford to manufacture the oxford vaccine. what did modi do? modi asked the serum institute to export the vaccine to other countries, to win brownie points, rather than give vaccines to his own people. today, with this crisis, and with people panic stricken, there is a shortage of vaccines and therefore, what britain has achieved by way of vaccinating people and creating this safe, relatively safe and feelgood factor of situation and feelgood factor, that simply does not exist in india at the moment because india has a very, very long way to go before it can vaccinate adequately its people. it is still below 15% of the population in terms of the first dose only, so you can imagine at what scale the problem has escalated in just a few weeks.
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and indeed, the chances of averting the path of this are very, very remote at this stage. let me end the programme by asking each of you in turn just a very brief question. is there a story or something perhaps we haven't either given much attention to, given all our obsession with wallpaper, and rightly with the crisis in india, but perhaps it has got a bit neglected? steve, anything you have noticed that you would like to mark our audience's cards about? yeah, the obsession isn't with wallpaper but with rules and propriety. but yeah, thejoe biden speech this week, which was a radical argument for the state, and spending to boost the economy, was really interesting because he has been described as a centrist, but he's always actually been a radical. he was the one who lifted the neil kinnock speech about 1000 generations of kinnock and the advance of the state
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as an enabler, and i think it is very interesting that in britain people like george osborne and david cameron were described as centrist, but in the us you have someone perceived as that who is actually doing a lot in terms of using the state as a benevolent force. and the polls suggest it is popular. good. ashis ray? well, i think from a british perspective, i am very, very surprised that, notjust now, but for several weeks, british media have ignored a story in india. this concerns a briton. his name is cristian michelle, who has been in prison in india for over... well, nearly 2.5 years without a trial. he is accused of having paid bribes in a helicopter deal some ten years ago and that doesn't appear to be a credible charge against him,
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yet he is in the most hazardous of conditions in a delhi jail and with this covid situation, i think the danger to him is even greater. but the point of the matter is that even if he isn't accused and even if he needs to go on trial at some point, you cannot hold a person indefinitely for two and a half years. i am really shocked that british media have not picked up the story so far. very little coverage has taken place. as it happens, one at the stories i did was for a british paper on this very matter. this was because the united nations has slammed india on this matter and asked india to release christian michel immediately. thank you very much, ashis ray. very briefly, lyse doucet. my colleagues have been great, the history in afghanistan, - 20 years after the us—led nato
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forces went in, _ they are now pulling out. britain as well, to a very uncertain - future for afghanistan. it is not really on the news radar now, but afghans . are really, really worried. america is ending its- longest war, but the war is not over for afghans. lyse doucet, ashis ray and steve richards, thank you and as ever, thank you for being with us on dateline: london. back at the same time next weekend, goodbye! most of saturday's showers have cleared out of the race of the cleared out of the race of the clear skies over the next few hours it is cold and going to get even colder yet. there was widespread frost around as start of sunday morning with
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temperatures widely getting down to between zero and —3 celsius. near coastal areas, degree or two above freezing, as mild as things will get overnight. sunday morning, i cold start with blue skies to start the day and plenty of sunshine. showers getting going across north—western areas first before becoming extensive into the afternoon across most areas of the uk. some of the heavier showers will be across eastern scotland, the midlands and eastern areas of england. temperatures through the afternoon still pretty disappointing with highs of somewhere between 11—14 celsius for many. talk about disappointing weather here comes the bank holiday weather, with low pressure bringing wet, windy weather, and certainly, very chilly weather.
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hello and welcome to bbc news. a national day of mourning is taking place in israel after friday's deadly crush at a jewish pilgrimage. 45 men and boys died after being trapped in a narrow walkway during the festival at mount meron, attended by up to 100,000 mostly ultra—orthodoxjews. mark lobel reports. morning, a tragedy. 0ne morning, a tragedy. one that shown an uncomfortable light on israeli society amid the search for how what of israel's worst
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peacetime disasters unfolded.

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