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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  May 4, 2021 12:30am-1:01am BST

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this is bbc news, the headlines. one of the world's richest couples — bill and melinda gates — have announced that they are divorcing after 27 years of marriage. their charitable foundation has spent billions fighting causes such as infectious diseases and encouraging vaccinations in children. in a joint statement, the pair said they would continue to work together. the british prime minister, borisjohnson, has said that the one—metre plus rule for social distancing could be dropped next month but that this would depend on the data. he also suggested that some foreign travel could resume in two week's time but he was remaining cautious. the european union has outlined plans to significantly ease travel restrictions in time for the summer. under the proposals, anyone who has received the last dose of an eu approved vaccine at least two weeks beforehand will be permitted to travel. discussions on the plans will begin on tuesday.
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now on bbc news... welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. it barely merits international headlines these days, but america's guantanamo bay prison is still operational. a0 inmates are left. most have been held for nearly two decades without being charged or tried. for m years, my guest today, mohamedou ould salahi, was held there, having been identified as a high value al-qaeda terrorist. he was eventually released without charge. and now a film, the mauritanian, has been released telling his remarkable story. what is the guantanamo legacy?
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mohamedou ould salahi in nouakchott, mauritania, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much, stephen, for having me on your programme and i salute your audience. well, it is a pleasure to have you on our programme. let's begin with how it feels to have a film made about your story and, in a sense, have your name become recognised around the world years after you were finally released from guantanamo bay,
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when perhaps your story should have been better known to the world, but almost nobody had heard your name at all. does it feel weird that your story is now the subject of a film? i'm still trying to digest, but in a positive way, because this whole operation, you know, when i was kidnapped, was conducted in total darkness. no—one should know anything about this abduction. no—one should know anything about torture. anything about disappearance and this rendition from senegal to mauritania, tojordan, to bagram, to guantanamo, so i'm so happy now that the world is knowing the story. in the course of this interview, we'll talk in detail about what happened to you in guantanamo. but actually, before we begin that, ijust want to ask you today, as we see you sitting there in nouakchott,
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mauritania, do the memories of your 1a years and two months in guantanamo bay, do they still haunt you? are they still alive in your mind? because it is more than four years now since you were released? that is correct, stephen. so more than 1a years in guantanamo bay and nine months in... outside guantanamo bay in dark prison — secret prison, so it's over... it's almost 15 years after the 9/11 attack. and, of course, i still suffer. you know, when i was tortured, i was physically tortured, and mentally abused for a very long time. and, to this day, there are certain triggers that send me right away to the hospital.
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and ijust become, like, you know, very sick and they take me to the hospital for several days when one of these triggers come. this is not easy. i mean, i was tortured, like, my ribs were broken and i lost my gall bladder. that was kaput. and to this day, i suffer from that. the irony is that no western country accepts, including the uk, to receive me for medical assistance. you used that word we became familiar with — "rendition" — to describe the way you were picked up, and you were sent through third countries, eventually to jordan and then on to guantanamo bay, where, of course, you were incarcerated. you would... that happened to you for a reason, mohamedou. it happened because the united states and its allies had intelligence that you were a member of al-qaeda and that you were an important figure in al-qaeda's international network, having contacts with other al-qaeda operatives, first in canada and also in germany, in berlin.
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there was evidence. can you confirm to me that going back to your late teenage years and early 20s, you were a sworn member of al-qaeda? so this all started in... ..late �*98 or early �*99, when i received a very harmless phone call from my cousin, and it was just a family call. he wanted me to send some money to his father, who was sick in nouakchott, and they needed the money. and then he lived in sudan. and this was very mundane. and the phone call is in the possession of the united states of america, i presume. and there is nothing to it, except what i'm telling you. however, there was a problem.
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this call was conducted from a phone that belonged to osama bin laden himself. he then lived in sudan and my cousin was a friend of osama bin laden. and so my... but i have to mention that the united states found out that my cousin was not involved in the 9/11 attack. i'm not here to interrogate you. god forbid! you've had plenty of that in your life. but i just want our audience to be clear that there were some, let us be honest, pretty extraordinary connections between you and men that we know became active terrorists in al-qaeda, just to name one — ramzi bin al—shibh. you had connections, direct connections to him in germany. these connections are real. how do you explain them? as to ramzi al—shibh, i don't know him. i saw him once. he came once to my house
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to visit a friend. those are all the connection. there is no connections whatsoever with any type of organised crimes because i don't want to use "terrorism" because i don't believe in this word, because it's used to oppress political dissent in my part of the world. and it's abused to collectively punish innocent people. if you say a murderer, everybody would understand. and there are evidence. but if you say a terrorist, you can do everything you want with a person with no accountability whatsoever. mohamedou, you were known as prisoner 760... yes. ..at guantanamo. you were subject to enhanced interrogation techniques, which were signed off by the defence secretary,
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donald rumsfeld, himself. you've already used the word "torture" to me. what were the most difficult experiences you went through? so one day, i remember it's around noon, but i don't think it's at noon. this middle—aged man, by the name of richard zuley, lieutenant richard zuley, he called himself captain collins, came to me in my interrogation room and i was then interrogated by staff sergeant mary, the one they saw in the movie, who was crying. and he told me that the united states of america decided to kidnap my mother and put her in men's only prison, insinuating that she would be raped. he said she would remain in that prison until i confess to my quote—unquote "crimes." and, at that point, i know there was nothing left for me to lose because the last time
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i saw my mother is when those police... when those cops in plainclothes came to my house and led me outside the house. and i could see my mother in the rear—view mirror praying, holding the prayer beads. and she disappeared, as we turned to the right after about 200, 150 metres. and that's it. my mother disappeared. then i did not know she would disappear forever. but now i know she disappeared forever. she never got her day in court. she never get to defend her son. to clear the name of her son. so, and this... at that point, i wasn't doing well when he came to me. i went through up to that point 70 days of sleep deprivation, no sleep, and sexual assault multiple times. and i was — i was being interrogated, 21w. i'd been exposed to the cold room. i told them, "i'm dying." i was pleading with them,
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trying to negotiate my way out of torture. what i didn't know that some of my co—detainees died in the cold room. mohammed gul didn't get a chance to talk to stephen in hardtalk because he died. he succumbed in the cold room. they used these techniques against you. you've outlined some of them. we know it involved waterboarding. beating, we know it involved sleep deprivation. and, as you've said, you've talked about sexual abuse as well, as well as the psychological torture involving threats to your mother. you cracked, mohamedou, in the end. you decided the way to stop this was to confess. are you now saying that everything you told investigators about your involvement with jihadists was a complete fabrication?
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no. i went to afghanistan. that was true. i went to afghanistan for a very brief period, like twice, two months. and then your country, the united kingdom, germany, where i lived, and the united kingdom were on my side. i mean, the first interrogator interrogated me in guantanamo bay. he told me, "i was with you in afghanistan." and he completely... he knows that this was all, you know, supported by the united states of america. it's not like i went, like, with a fake passport, trying to cross the border. i went to the embassy of the mujahideen in bonn, and i got a visa from the mujahideen, a recognised organisation from germany. and it was not like that i prayed in mosques in germany,
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and that i know other muslims. this was a concerted war against young arabs and muslims from around the world. no, i have no... i have no doubt about it. and it's very shameful that the countries who committed the most abuses are arabs and muslim countries in this whole so—called war on terror. i'm not cutting them any slack, by the way. i want to stick with this idea of what happened in your head after this... ..as you put it, this torture over many, many months. you made a confession, but you also betrayed other individuals. you implicated others. and ijust wonder how guilty you feel about what you did at that point when you talked of others and their involvement. very, very. i feel very bad about it.
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and stephen, i tell you, i think this was a karma because when they came to me and they told me... the interrogators, the fbi told me that ramzi bin al—shibh testified that i was... i helped him go to afghanistan. and i don't know the guy, let alone helping him. and i was like, so upset with him. i said, "how could he... how could he lie about it?" and other detainees, yemeni detainees, who were with him, they told me, "mohamedou, you're crazy. "this guy was tortured so badly, we couldn't sleep, "hearing him crying all night long." and, after a couple of months, i was in the same situation. and everyone they ask me about, i would say he's a terrorist, he's al-qaeda. and then i know exactly the kind of people they want me... because...
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..to name. and ijust named my friends, my closest friends. and the first thing i do when i met my lawyer, i told her i named mohassin and i named ahmed and they have nothing to do with anything. and i didn't plan to attack cn tower. the first thing i told her, to go to their lawyers if they were in prison. and... but i'm so happy they are free people. and, at least, that my friend i contacted, he never even went to prison because everybody knows that this is under torture. by 2010, the case against you was falling apart. a usjudge ruled that the... as he put it, coercive treatment inflicted upon you undermined the possibility of trial. the evidence, "so tainted by coercion and mistreatment, "it cannot support a successful criminal prosecution." now, that was in 2010, but you weren't actually released until the autumn
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of 2016. and i'm just wondering, by the time you finally got out, were you almost scared of the outside world? you had been habituated to guantanamo for so long, what was it like considering, contemplating your own freedom? it's... stephen, it's like if someone comes through today and tell you — tells you that you're going to mars, another planet. and vividly, the captain — a female captain — came to me and stuck her head through the, er, through the bean hole. that is where they give us food. and she was smiling the most beautiful smile. said, "760, you know that you're going home." i just want to make a comment about the judge's
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decision to release me. so i was... i was intimidated, and i was threatened not to go to court. and they told me even if i went to court, they would not let me go. and this is complete disrespect to the rule of law, because guantanamo bay was designed to circumvent the law, because the country — the executive power — should not be able to arrest people and put them in prison, sentence them without proper procedure. that's all i'm saying. all i'm saying. did you — mohamedou... this exception that africans and middle eastern people are exception to the human rights, and that only europeans and americans are the one to enjoy human rights is fascism, actually. every human beings should enjoy full human rights, full access to a lawyer,
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to a judge, and to proper procedure. that's all i am calling for. and i'm a testimony that the suspicion of the government are not enough to convict someone because i was 100% innocent. mohamedou, given this story of yours on what has happened to you, how much anger and desire for some sort of revenge do you have in your heart and soul today? absolutely none whatsoever. when i spent eight months in the prison of darkness injordan, the cia came to me. of course, i didn't know then it was the cia. they start to cut open my clothes with scissors. this is the first time i feel something like that. i was blindfolded and i was earmuffed. and they put me in diapers. and then it dawned on me, i will go to an american prison and die forgotten.
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what i regretted was not being nice enough to the people around me. i regretted every bad word, every bad comment i made about people. and i promised and took it upon myself to be nice, if i had a chance to go back to life. ididn't... i didn't regret that i didn't have a lot of money, or i didn't marry this beautiful woman, etc, etc. all that mattered to me at that moment is to be nice to people. and this is it. this is what's going to happen when i — when i'm about to die. that's why i forgive everybody and everyone and i'm not asking anything and i invited them to come to me and visit me, to show them around. and some of them indeed accepted my invitation, like my former guard, steven wood, who came to me twice. i took him to the desert. he stayed with me at home.
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we drank tea together, we did some of ramadan, etc, etc. it will be very hypocritical, stephen, for me to call for human rights, for the rule of law, for reconciliation, and not to begin with myself and forgive those who visited pain upon me. some people around the world may be amazed to learn that you actually, in the last few years, have married an american woman, and you have a son who, of course, therefore, is both mauritanian and american. that is a pretty extraordinary thing that you have done, given your experience of the united states of america. when people tell me that, isaid, of course, i need to marry an american because i need a witness next time they kidnap me. so, bad joke aside...
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er, we are human beings. dividing us between muslims, christian, western, african, middle eastern, i don't accept it. i am multiple identity. you know, i'm notjust like an african or an arab or a muslim. i'm also an open—minded, liberal—minded person. and i have so many shared values with american. and, in all, i love american people. i think american people are decent people, by and large. let me ask you... and i have no beef with americans. let me ask you this then. you, in the course of our conversation, have said, you know, "yes, i went to afghanistan. "i believed in the concept ofjihad." tell me today, what is your attitude to your religion and to those within your religion who still espouse this extreme jihadist ideology? so — of course, i completely condemn extremism, whether it's coming from muslim, jewish
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people, hindu people, or... i don't do extremism in any shape or form. today, i want the rule of law and democracy for all — all human beings, including in mauritania — starting from mauritania, i would say. when i was a teenager, i lived in a military dictatorship, you know, where people couldn't talk, we couldn't even talk. if you talk, you go to prison, you risk your freedom. and i didn't know how to break free. and then there was so much, like, propaganda about the way that afghan is doing it — taking up arms, and going against the regime, the communist regime. and i was infatuated about the idea. absolutely. and i don't regret that at all. you know, i say this. but today i'm a mature man, and i know that violence is not the way. i believe in peaceful revolutions, in peaceful change.
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and, at the same time, i think that people that espouse, like, extremist ideology, have a place in open society and they should express themselves, and they should not be put in prison because they say they want sharia law or anything. you can only put people in prison if they commit violence. we're almost out of time. one last question about the future of guantanamo bay. you and other former inmates have written to presidentjoe biden, asking him to close guantanamo bay. it was a promise made by barack 0bama, but he couldn't deliver. you want biden to deliver the complete closure of guantanamo, but what then should happen to inmates, like khalid sheikh mohammed, who the americans are absolutely convinced, based on, they say, overwhelming evidence, he, they say, was a key architect of the 9/11 attack and other attacks as well. if you want guantanamo closed, what should happen to people like khalid sheikh mohammed?
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this is a very good question. first, guantanamo bay must be closed, and i do believe that president biden will close guantanamo because i believe in him. i thinkjoe biden is a good guy. the people who are people like khalid sheikh mohammed, and anyone who the government thinks were involved in these atrocious attacks must be brought to trial, very open trial with proper defence. you know? and it's up to the jury and judge to convict them, not up to me or stephen, or the cia or fbi. all right. well, mohamedou 0uld salahi, i thank you very much indeed forjoining me from nouakchott, mauritania. thank you.
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thank you, stephen, for having me. hello. when it comes to bank holiday weather, our expectations are normally low, but even they were undercut by what just happened. up to two inches of rain in the wettest parts of scotland, but very few avoided a spell of lashing rain. a wind gust over 90 mph off the south coast of england. even where the rain held off until late in the day, the temperature only reached 1a celsius, and that's the lowest high temperature the uk has had on the early may bank holiday, so that makes it
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the coldest early may bank holiday on record. it's not going to feel any warmer during tuesday. it'll still be windy, though not quite as windy, and there'll be showers around as the area of low pressure that did for the bank holiday weather pulls away into the north sea. the flow of air behind that, though, coming down from the north, that means temperatures below average for the time of year, feeling colder and the wind and the showers around of which there will be plenty from the word go though not much in the way of frost to start the day. that is going to change, though, as we go through the week ahead, so back to a risk of overnight frost. gales close to these north sea coasts where it's been windiest overnight in southern england and south wales. won't be as windy by the time we get to mid—morning. there are areas with showers moving south, perhaps some longer spells of rain in parts of northern england. brightening up later in northeast scotland. not many showers in southern england and south wales. the winds at their strongest along the north sea coasts and across parts of eastern england. very gusty, but again easing later.
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catch a shower, hail, thunder — with temperatures like this, it'll be wintry over the hills in scotland. some places will not get into double figures. now, on through tuesday evening and night, some showers continue to feed south. it's where it gets clearest overnight — northern england and parts of scotland — we're going to have frost going into wednesday morning, so it will be a cold start. and wednesday will be a day of sunshine and showers. again, there will be a wintry flavour to these showers in places with hail and some snow on the higher hills in scotland, northern england, perhaps into wales as well. it's not going to feel any warmer. we're back to the risk of overnight frost. a similar picture on thursday — further showers, wintry on hills moving south and maybe a spell of rain flirting with the south coast of england, so we're going to keep a close eye on that. friday will be another chilly day of sunshine and showers and going into the weekend, here comes another area of low pressure. more wind and rain, though as the wind changes direction to a southerly, it may turn much warmer for a time, especially parts of england.
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this is bbc news — welcome if you're watching here in the uk or around the globe. i'm lewis vaughan jones. our top stories: one of the world's richest couples — bill and melinda gates — announce they are to divorce after 27 years of marriage. the european commission recommends easing restrictions on travel — as the debate begins on whether it's safe go on holiday. it's battle royale as epic games gets its day in court with apple in a trial that could have major implications for the future of the tech giant. a group of endangered giraffes get a new home after being rescued from rising floodwaters in kenya.

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