this is bbc news, the headlines: one of the world's richest couples — bill and melinda gates — have announced that they are divorcing after 27 years of marriage. their charitable foundation has spent billions fighting causes such as infectious diseases and encouraging vaccinations in children. in a joint statement, the pair said they would continue to work together. the european union has outlined plans to significantly ease travel restrictions in time for the summer. under the proposals, anyone who has received the last dose of an eu approved vaccine at least two weeks beforehand will be permitted to travel. discussions on the plans will begin on tuesday. a landmark trial has begun in the us against apple, accusing the tech giant of abusing its market dominance. epic games, which makes fortnite, says game and app developers have no choice but to use the technology giant's app store, where they're charged large fees on transactions.

now on bbc news, it's the media show. hello. why does so much of the media now need a subscription? netflix for this, amazon for that, now tv, box, i could go on but up till now one terrain largely immune to the blight of subscriptions has been pod casts. maybe not for much longer i'm afraid because apple and spotify are rolling out a feature which allows them to charge fans a monthly fee to hear new episodes. is this the beginning of the end of the world of pod casts as we know it? are we seeing the consolidation of the industry around a handful of tech companies will stifle new entrants and cream of the biggest stars or is this a wonderful thing? biggest stars or is this a wonderfulthing? quality biggest stars or is this a wonderful thing? quality costs may customers should pay. give the enormous budgets that are now thrown tv drama. are we

going to get a new calibre of pod casts that will blow our ears off in exchange for a few quid each and every month. i put together an panel of old and new friends. declan moore is the head of international for wondering which is the publisher behind hits like dirtyjohn and doctor death, hugely popular pod casts and no surprise that the last december it was bought by amazon. caroline crampton writes about pod casts and also she done it, the pod cast that unravels the mysteries behind classic detective stories. in real morgan bounded her pod cast content is queen. and matt deegan of older media is another busy person who runs radio stations including one kids, the co—founder of the british pod cast towards and everything and everyone. it's quite a build—up, isn't it, matt? essentially casting you as god, which is a first. we will find — as god, which is a first. we will find out _ as god, which is a first. we will find out soon. - as god, which is a first. we will find out soon. in - as god, which is a first. we will find out soon. in the i as god, which is a first. we i will find out soon. in the next 28 minutes. _ will find out soon. in the next 28 minutes. welcome -

will find out soon. in the next 28 minutes. welcome to - will find out soon. in the next 28 minutes. welcome to you | will find out soon. in the next. 28 minutes. welcome to you all. let's find out a bit about the stories you've been telling. declan tell us about wondery, and what you've had.- declan tell us about wondery, and what you've had. thank you. we have had _ and what you've had. thank you. we have had our— and what you've had. thank you. we have had our first _ and what you've had. thank you. we have had our first non-us . we have had ourfirst non—us production called british scandal. we are excited to do that, with had a number of number one shows. 33 in total in the us including doctor death and the shrink next door and six number ones in the uk and six number ones in the uk and ourfirst number one show, it's hosted by alice levine, incomparable.— incomparable. this is your account — incomparable. this is your account of— incomparable. this is your account of the _ incomparable. this is your account of the litvinenkol account of the litvinenko poisoning. account of the litvinenko poisoning-— account of the litvinenko oisonina. �*, ., ., poisoning. let's go back to russia in — poisoning. let's go back to russia in 1998. _ poisoning. let's go back to | russia in 1998. 35-year-old russia in 1998. 35—year—old sasha — russia in 1998. 35—year—old sasha litvinenko looks around the conference in a hotel, the room — the conference in a hotel, the room is — the conference in a hotel, the room is crowded with generalist, he looks back at the fsb _ generalist, he looks back at the fsb agents with him. they are all— the fsb agents with him. they are all taking a big risk. just

to be clear, _ are all taking a big risk. just to be clear, we're _ are all taking a big risk. just to be clear, we're not - are all taking a big risk. jut to be clear, we're not talking about the federation of small businesses.— businesses. i am not, no, on this occasion but _ businesses. i am not, no, on this occasion but angus - businesses. i am not, no, on this occasion but angus cost| this occasion but angus cost we will some point. this this occasion but angus cost we will some point.— will some point. this fsb is what used _ will some point. this fsb is what used to be _ what used to be the kgb. exactly, the federal security service of the russian federation that came in the end of the soviet union. it’s federation that came in the end of the soviet union.— of the soviet union. it's got a very secular _ of the soviet union. it's got a very secular sound, _ of the soviet union. it's got a very secular sound, declan, l very secular sound, declan, high production values, that gentle humming music goes. who's your target audience with a pod cast like this? absolutely, we place a tremendous emphasis on creating what we call emotional emotive immersive storytelling and really transporting the listener into the shoes of the protagonist where the action is taking place. what we're doing here is telling the story that many of us might remember from 2005 and telling it for new audiences and injecting a certain amount of humour and balancing the laughs with the liberty, and really bring the story to life for the listener. was target audience? are you trying to appeal to... do you have research, you were bought by amazon, you have strong

research into your audiences are in other pod casts. do you have a particular demographic you are targeting or trying to peel people away from linear stations, and existing podcast market, a gap in the market? who are you targeting? absolutely, there is tremendous opportunity for audience growth. in the us we have 37% of people are monthly listeners of people are monthly listeners of pod casts meaning there are two—thirds were not. in the uk, about 20, 20 2% monthly listeners so the whole space is growing at a rapid pace and the stories that we tell our stories that we tell our stories that we tell our stories that have evergreen appeal. as we have new listeners who come onto the platforms, and discover pod casting for the first time, we are providing great evergreen emotive immersive stories for them to listen to.— them to listen to. and who do ou see them to listen to. and who do you see is _ them to listen to. and who do you see is your— them to listen to. and who do you see is your competition? | you see is your competition? other pod casts or linear radio stations? i other pod casts or linear radio stations? ., , other pod casts or linear radio stations? ~' , ., stations? i think there is what lots of room _ stations? i think there is what lots of room in _ stations? i think there is what lots of room in this _ stations? i think there is what lots of room in this space - stations? i think there is what lots of room in this space or. lots of room in this space or audio consumption and it's great to see lots of new types of plat forms that listeners

can find audio content. we are seeing with the growth, as they discovered, and discover stories that they like, they are coming back for more and more and are tremendously loyal, building relationships with the hosts, and interested in these great stories that we are telling on these immersive ways. i5 are telling on these immersive wa s. , , , ., . are telling on these immersive wa s. , ,, ., . , ways. is this show, which is new, ways. is this show, which is new. is _ ways. is this show, which is new. is it — ways. is this show, which is new, is it exclusive - ways. is this show, which is new, is it exclusive to - ways. is this show, which is new, is it exclusive to one i new, is it exclusive to one particular podcast app? i know you have your own app, wondery plus, which gives early access to subscribers.— plus, which gives early access to subscribers. how do you get it? it is available _ to subscribers. how do you get it? it is available everywhere, l it? it is available everywhere, amazon music, apple pod casts, wherever you listen to pod casts. within the wondery up there is that opportunity if you are a paid subscriber to access those episodes that are pre— prior to general access those episodes that are pre- prior to general release. caroline, wondery is one of those us podcast companies that attracted huge evidence before amazon purchased it. what can wondery offer the uk market that we don't already have? i thinkjust what you mentioned,

money— thinkjust what you mentioned, money and funding. we had some great _ money and funding. we had some great ideas in the uk so far but we _ great ideas in the uk so far but we haven't had a homegrown sort of— but we haven't had a homegrown sort of venture backed pod cast studio — sort of venture backed pod cast studio that scott tens of thousands if not more to spend on a _ thousands if not more to spend on a single show. and sol think— on a single show. and sol think that _ on a single show. and sol think that is what something like wondery can bring to the uk space. like wondery can bring to the uk space-— uk space. this whole kind of move, uk space. this whole kind of move. this _ uk space. this whole kind of move, this gold _ uk space. this whole kind of move, this gold rush, - uk space. this whole kind of move, this gold rush, is - uk space. this whole kind of move, this gold rush, is it i move, this gold rush, is it exciting for someone like you? you one of the early innovators in this field, you did a podcast eight years ago now. you've been doing this stuff brilliantly brady is saying pod casts is where it's it. does it feel to you like there is this enormously exciting moment around you now and you want to have a slice of it?— have a slice of it? there has been a few _ have a slice of it? there has been a few of _ have a slice of it? there has been a few of those. - have a slice of it? there has been a few of those. i i have a slice of it? there has been a few of those. i know| been a few of those. i know people _ been a few of those. i know people are back to 2014 and the debut _ people are back to 2014 and the debut of— people are back to 2014 and the debut of the first series of serial _ debut of the first series of serial i_ debut of the first series of serial. i gauge these things by how difficult it is to explain myiob _ how difficult it is to explain myjob when i meet people. i have — myjob when i meet people. i have gone by, i work at a magazine, i pod casts, what is

a pod — magazine, i pod casts, what is a pod cast. _ magazine, i pod casts, what is a pod cast, give me your phone and let— a pod cast, give me your phone and let me _ a pod cast, give me your phone and let me show you, that kind of interaction and all i say how— of interaction and all i say now is— of interaction and all i say now is that i make a pod cast and _ now is that i make a pod cast and people go, great, what is it? is — and people go, great, what is it? , ., ., it? is it true of all generations i it? is it true of all generations or. generations or older people? i think so. i say my dad has been to an evolution where he used to think— to an evolution where he used to think a pod cast was when he looked — to think a pod cast was when he looked up — to think a pod cast was when he looked up a listen again version _ looked up a listen again version of a radio for show and now— version of a radio for show and now he — version of a radio for show and now he listens to all kind of things _ now he listens to all kind of thins. ~ , . now he listens to all kind of thin.s_ ~y ., .,, now he listens to all kind of thin.s_ ~y ., , now he listens to all kind of thins. g . , ., now he listens to all kind of thinus. g ., , .,., things. my dad has been to an illusion, sounds _ things. my dad has been to an illusion, sounds like _ things. my dad has been to an illusion, sounds like the i things. my dad has been to an illusion, sounds like the name of a podcast. let's look at the economics. you host your own show called shedunnit, which looks the golden age of agatha christie and others. how does it earn money? a, christie and others. how does it earn money?— christie and others. how does it earn money? a few different wa s. i it earn money? a few different ways- i have — it earn money? a few different ways- i have a _ it earn money? a few different ways. i have a membership i ways. i have a membership scheme _ ways. i have a membership scheme associated with it, not dissimilar— scheme associated with it, not dissimilar to wondery plus, a platform _ dissimilar to wondery plus, a platform i built myself where i have _ platform i built myself where i have about 500 paying supporters who pay for early access — supporters who pay for early access to _ supporters who pay for early access to episodes free access and the — access to episodes free access and the community that goes with— and the community that goes with it. — and the community that goes with it, as well as bonus audio and _ with it, as well as bonus audio and also — with it, as well as bonus audio and also advertising on the free version of the show and

when — free version of the show and when i — free version of the show and when i have time and energy, i sell merchandise and i get donations and grants and all that— donations and grants and all that kind of thing.— donations and grants and all that kind of thing. let's hear a bit, because _ that kind of thing. let's hear a bit, because it's _ that kind of thing. let's hear a bit, because it's terrific. i a bit, because it's terrific. this is from shedunnit. but what does _ this is from shedunnit. but what does any _ this is from shedunnit. but what does any of _ this is from shedunnit. but what does any of this have to do with— what does any of this have to do with murder mysteries? well, these _ do with murder mysteries? well, these two — do with murder mysteries? well, these two forms of puzzle, the crossword _ these two forms of puzzle, the crossword and the classic fairplay _ crossword and the classic fairplay whodunnit were exploding in popularity at the same — exploding in popularity at the same time in this collective passion _ same time in this collective passion at a common source in the so—called puzzle craze of the so—called puzzle craze of the period immediately following the first world war. the critic _ following the first world war. the critic alison lighters described the effect of murder mysteries in this postwar period _ mysteries in this postwar period as "the mental equivalent of pottery" in the same — equivalent of pottery" in the same could be said of all puzzles _ same could be said of all puzzles. people love whodunnit 's and _ puzzles. people love whodunnit 's and crosswords are like because _ 's and crosswords are like because they are absorbing and distracting but not disruptive. now— distracting but not disruptive. now to — distracting but not disruptive. now to my mind, that would sound not at all out of place on radio 4. are you trying, maybe on the show today, are you trying to poach radio for listeners? do you have a sense, may be informed by data, who your target market is and

trying to get to? i’m your target market is and trying to get to? i'm certainly not trying _ trying to get to? i'm certainly not trying to _ trying to get to? i'm certainly not trying to poach _ trying to get to? i'm certainly not trying to poach anybody l trying to get to? i'm certainly l not trying to poach anybody but i do not trying to poach anybody but i do think— not trying to poach anybody but i do think it's a format, documentary style format that people — documentary style format that people are very familiar with radio — people are very familiar with radio. you get perhaps not the most _ radio. you get perhaps not the most accurate data necessarily from _ most accurate data necessarily from your— most accurate data necessarily from your pod casting hosting provider— from your pod casting hosting provider but what i do get, actually, _ provider but what i do get, actually, i have more listeners in the — actually, i have more listeners in the us— actually, i have more listeners in the us than the uk, although it was the — in the us than the uk, although it was the other way around when — it was the other way around when we _ it was the other way around when we started out and possibly the sort of agatha christie _ possibly the sort of agatha christie and equivalent writers are very— christie and equivalent writers are very attractive to anglophile is in the us, i don't know, but that was a surprise to me that it was more popular— surprise to me that it was more popular there. surprise to me that it was more popularthere. i surprise to me that it was more popular there. i assumed surprise to me that it was more popularthere. iassumed i'd mostly— popularthere. iassumed i'd mostly be talking to people here — mostly be talking to people here. ~ . . , mostly be talking to people here. ~ . , . ., here. what was your instinct to the response — here. what was your instinct to the response to _ here. what was your instinct to the response to the _ here. what was your instinct to the response to the news i here. what was your instinct to the response to the news thatl the response to the news that apple and spotify, these giants, apple �*s $2 trillion company, i going to let people like you charge a subscription was to mark i can't say it appeals to me in 2021. l was to mark i can't say it appeals to me in 2021. i think they launched _ appeals to me in 2021. i think they launched this _ appeals to me in 2021. i think they launched this five - appeals to me in 2021. i think they launched this five years | they launched this five years ago. — they launched this five years ago. i— they launched this five years ago, i think people like me might— ago, i think people like me might have been more interested but we _ might have been more interested but we all— might have been more interested but we all have our own systems now _ but we all have our own systems now i_ but we all have our own systems now i have _ but we all have our own systems now. i have my own completely

independent but form. a company like wondery has their own app. i like wondery has their own app. i know— like wondery has their own app. i know they have some big publishers like npr on board to offer— publishers like npr on board to offer subscriptions from launch but we've all built our own ecosystem now and i personally think— ecosystem now and i personally think they missed the window a bit. think they missed the window a bit matt — think they missed the window a bit. matt deegan, apple isn't the first— bit. matt deegan, apple isn't the first company, wondery, audible, _ the first company, wondery, audible, a separate company. is audible, a separate company. is it audible, a separate company. it going to audible, a separate company. i; it going to fundamentally change industry. the it going to fundamentally change industry.- change industry. the one positive _ change industry. the one positive the _ change industry. the one positive the apple - change industry. the one positive the apple as i change industry. the one | positive the apple as they change industry. the one i positive the apple as they make it easy— positive the apple as they make it easy to— positive the apple as they make it easy to start _ positive the apple as they make it easy to start subscription. i it easy to start subscription. on it easy to start subscription. 0h third-party— it easy to start subscription. on third—party services, i it easy to start subscription. i on third—party services, there might— on third—party services, there might be _ on third—party services, there might be a _ on third—party services, there might be a bit— on third—party services, there might be a bit of— on third—party services, there might be a bit of a _ on third—party services, there might be a bit of a road - on third—party services, there might be a bit of a road you i might be a bit of a road you have — might be a bit of a road you have to _ might be a bit of a road you have to travel— might be a bit of a road you have to travel to _ might be a bit of a road you have to travel to get - might be a bit of a road you have to travel to get it i might be a bit of a road you have to travel to get it to i have to travel to get it to work _ have to travel to get it to work as— have to travel to get it to work as a _ have to travel to get it to work as a consumer. i have to travel to get it toj work as a consumer. and have to travel to get it to i work as a consumer. and this, for apple, _ work as a consumer. and this, for apple, looks— work as a consumer. and this, for apple, looks a _ work as a consumer. and this, for apple, looks a bit - work as a consumer. and this, for apple, looks a bit like i for apple, looks a bit like buying _ for apple, looks a bit like buying an— for apple, looks a bit like buying an app _ for apple, looks a bit like buying an app. you - for apple, looks a bit like buying an app. you are i for apple, looks a bit like buying an app. you are in for apple, looks a bit like i buying an app. you are in the apple — buying an app. you are in the apple podcast's _ buying an app. you are in the apple podcast's app, - buying an app. you are in the apple podcast's app, hit i buying an app. you are in the apple podcast's app, hit a i apple podcast's app, hit a button, _ apple podcast's app, hit a button, they've _ apple podcast's app, hit a button, they've already. apple podcast's app, hit a i button, they've already got your— button, they've already got your credit _ button, they've already got your credit card _ button, they've already got your credit card details, i button, they've already got| your credit card details, the subscription— your credit card details, the subscription has— your credit card details, the subscription has less - your credit card details, the i subscription has less friction. the _ subscription has less friction. the downside, _ subscription has less friction. the downside, because - subscription has less friction. the downside, because it's i the downside, because it's apple, _ the downside, because it's apple. thoug _ the downside, because it's apple, thoug going - the downside, because it's apple, thoug going to i the downside, because it's apple, thoug going to takej the downside, because it's i apple, thoug going to take 30% of your— apple, thoug going to take 30% of your revenue _ apple, thoug going to take 30% of your revenue for— apple, thoug going to take 30% of your revenue for the - apple, thoug going to take 30% of your revenue for the first i of your revenue for the first year. and it—

of your revenue for the first year, and it drops— of your revenue for the first year, and it drops to dean. of your revenue for the first i year, and it drops to dean per cent for subscribers _ year, and it drops to dean per cent for subscribers in - year, and it drops to dean per cent for subscribers in the i cent for subscribers in the second _ cent for subscribers in the second year~ _ cent for subscribers in the second year. you're - cent for subscribers in the second year. you're not i second year. you're not necessariiy_ second year. you're not necessarily earning i second year. you're not necessarily earning so i second year. you're not i necessarily earning so much second year. you're not - necessarily earning so much per user_ necessarily earning so much per user but— necessarily earning so much per user but you _ necessarily earning so much per user but you can— necessarily earning so much per user but you can get _ necessarily earning so much per user but you can get more - necessarily earning so much per. user but you can get more money from — user but you can get more money from more _ user but you can get more money from more users. _ user but you can get more money from more users. i’m“ _ user but you can get more money from more users.— from more users. i'm thinking about younger— from more users. i'm thinking about younger listeners, - about younger listeners, hearing all these people talk about how easy it is to get into podcasting and the fact there is a gold rush. young listeners have got stories they want to tell. is it basically with these new entrants, enormous companies coming in, is it true to say it is easier than ever, to buy a bit of a quick set of a studio at home and start building an audience? that's exciting. it’s and start building an audience? that's exciting.— that's exciting. it's very easy to create _ that's exciting. it's very easy to create some _ that's exciting. it's very easy to create some audio - that's exciting. it's very easy to create some audio and - that's exciting. it's very easy| to create some audio and get that— to create some audio and get that somewhere _ to create some audio and get that somewhere and - to create some audio and get that somewhere and actually| to create some audio and get. that somewhere and actually get it into the — that somewhere and actually get it into the platform. _ it into the platform. that is very easy _ it into the platform. that is very easy as well. the - very easy as well. the question is, is _ very easy as well. the question is, is it— very easy as well. the question is. is it any— very easy as well. the question is, is it any good? _ very easy as well. the question is, is it any good? also, - very easy as well. the question is, is it any good? also, the . is, is it any good? also, the challenge _ is, is it any good? also, the challenge that _ is, is it any good? also, the challenge that all— is, is it any good? also, the challenge that all media - is, is it any good? also, thei challenge that all media has, is how— challenge that all media has, is how do— challenge that all media has, is how do you _ challenge that all media has, is how do you get _ challenge that all media has, is how do you get awareness| challenge that all media has, i is how do you get awareness for it. is how do you get awareness for it so _ is how do you get awareness for it so a — is how do you get awareness for it so a iot— is how do you get awareness for it so a lot of— is how do you get awareness for it. so a lot of podcasting - it. so a lot of podcasting grows _ it. so a lot of podcasting grows from _ it. so a lot of podcasting i grows from word—of—mouth it. so a lot of podcasting - grows from word—of—mouth but also _ grows from word—of—mouth but also promotion _ grows from word—of—mouth but also promotion when _ grows from word—of—mouth but also promotion when you - grows from word—of—mouth but also promotion when you go - grows from word—of—mouth but also promotion when you go to| also promotion when you go to

spotify— also promotion when you go to spotify apple _ also promotion when you go to spotify apple pod _ also promotion when you go to spotify apple pod casts. - also promotion when you go to spotify apple pod casts. it - spotify apple pod casts. it mentions _ spotify apple pod casts. it mentions in _ spotify apple pod casts. it mentions in newspapers l spotify apple pod casts. it . mentions in newspapers and spotify apple pod casts. it - mentions in newspapers and on line, _ mentions in newspapers and on line. social— mentions in newspapers and on line, social media. _ mentions in newspapers and on line, social media. that- mentions in newspapers and on line, social media. that is- line, social media. that is your— line, social media. that is your challenge, _ line, social media. that is your challenge, to- line, social media. that is your challenge, to get - line, social media. that is. your challenge, to get heard. one — your challenge, to get heard. one of— your challenge, to get heard. one of the _ your challenge, to get heard. one of the issues _ your challenge, to get heard. one of the issues that - your challenge, to get heard. | one of the issues that smaller operators— one of the issues that smaller operators might _ one of the issues that smaller operators might face - one of the issues that smaller operators might face with - one of the issues that smaller operators might face with thei operators might face with the bil operators might face with the big guys— operators might face with the big guys doing _ operators might face with the big guys doing such— operators might face with the big guys doing such a - operators might face with the big guys doing such a good i operators might face with thei big guys doing such a good job is, do — big guys doing such a good job is, do they— big guys doing such a good job is, do they get— big guys doing such a good job is, do they get squeezed - big guys doing such a good job is, do they get squeezed out? | is, do they get squeezed out? is is, do they get squeezed out? is it _ is, do they get squeezed out? is it hard _ is, do they get squeezed out? is it hard to— is, do they get squeezed out? is it hard to define _ is, do they get squeezed out? is it hard to define those - is it hard to define those spots _ is it hard to define those spots where _ is it hard to define those spots where you - is it hard to define those spots where you talk- is it hard to define those . spots where you talk about is it hard to define those - spots where you talk about the shows — spots where you talk about the shows that _ spots where you talk about the shows that you _ spots where you talk about the shows that you can _ spots where you talk about the shows that you can grow- shows that you can grow awareness _ shows that you can grow awareness. you - shows that you can grow awareness. you can't. shows that you can grow. awareness. you can't really grow — awareness. you can't really grow subscription - awareness. you can't really grow subscription business| grow subscription business until— grow subscription business until you _ grow subscription business until you gotta _ grow subscription business until you gotta free - grow subscription business until you gotta free to - until you gotta free to our audience _ until you gotta free to our audience first. _ until you gotta free to our audience first. lots - until you gotta free to our audience first. lots of- until you gotta free to our i audience first. lots of places talk— audience first. lots of places talk about converting - talk about converting pre— subscribers _ talk about converting pre— subscribers and _ talk about converting pre— subscribers and users. - talk about converting pre— subscribers and users. if i talk about converting pre— . subscribers and users. if you can — subscribers and users. if you can vote _ subscribers and users. if you can vote one _ subscribers and users. if you can vote one or— subscribers and users. if you can vote one or 2%, - subscribers and users. if you can vote one or 2%, you - subscribers and users. if you can vote one or 2%, you stilli can vote one or 2%, you still need — can vote one or 2%, you still need hundreds— can vote one or 2%, you still need hundreds or— can vote one or 2%, you still need hundreds or the - can vote one or 2%, you still need hundreds or the low. need hundreds or the low thousands— need hundreds or the low thousands at— need hundreds or the low thousands at least - need hundreds or the low thousands at least to - need hundreds or the low thousands at least to get| thousands at least to get people _ thousands at least to get people to _ thousands at least to get people to start _ thousands at least to get people to start paying. thousands at least to get| people to start paying. or thousands at least to get - people to start paying. or they -ot people to start paying. or they got to— people to start paying. or they got to really— people to start paying. or they got to really like _ people to start paying. or they got to really like you. - people to start paying. or they got to really like you. that - people to start paying. or they got to really like you. that is l got to really like you. that is the other— got to really like you. that is the other option. _ got to really like you. that is the other option. can - got to really like you. that is the other option. can you - the other option. can you create _ the other option. can you create an— the other option. can you create an amazing - the other option. can you - create an amazing relationship with your— create an amazing relationship with your audience _ create an amazing relationship with your audience which - create an amazing relationshipl with your audience which spikes your— with your audience which spikes your numbers, _ with your audience which spikes your numbers, where _ with your audience which spikes your numbers, where a - with your audience which spikes your numbers, where a high - your numbers, where a high percentage _ your numbers, where a high percentage of— your numbers, where a high percentage of people - your numbers, where a high percentage of people use i your numbers, where a high percentage of people use toi your numbers, where a high - percentage of people use to get it free _ percentage of people use to get it free and — percentage of people use to get it free and want _ percentage of people use to get it free and want to _ percentage of people use to get it free and want to support - percentage of people use to get it free and want to support youl it free and want to support you liy it free and want to support you by subscribing? _ it free and want to support you by subscribing?— by subscribing? because we're doinu by subscribing? because we're doing this _ by subscribing? because we're doing this show _ by subscribing? because we're doing this show on _ by subscribing? because we're doing this show on zoom, - by subscribing? because we're doing this show on zoom, i - by subscribing? because we're | doing this show on zoom, i can see you all. you will started

smiling when matt said, is it any good which suggests you've listened to a lot of bad pod in your time. you run your own company content is queen. what is wannabe? it company content is queen. what is wannabe?— is wannabe? it is a podcast be ounu is wannabe? it is a podcast be young women _ is wannabe? it is a podcast be young women of— is wannabe? it is a podcast be young women of colour - is wannabe? it is a podcast be young women of colour what l young women of colour what taking their career into their own hands. persistent action to pursue those careers. respect a really high achieving in high—profile people such as authors and people like rebecca sugar who created cartoons. and basicallyjust going through their stories and jottings, that's what we do with wannabe. with content is queen, it's all about community and as you are saying amol earlier, helping you pod casters went to the

market and enter successfully because it's so much harder now to make something good that will be listened to, picked up and promoted. this will be listened to, picked up and promoted.— will be listened to, picked up and promoted. as it got harder than when _ and promoted. as it got harder than when you _ and promoted. as it got harder than when you started - and promoted. as it got harder than when you started out? - than when you started out? would i were on the show. you've seen how things have changed over the past three years. what specifically has got harder? content is queen first started out as a marketing agency. from marketing? _ out as a marketing agency. from marketing? from _ out as a marketing agency. from marketing? from podcast- marketing? from podcast marketing _ marketing? from podcast marketing specifically. it| marketing? from podcast. marketing specifically. it is a new sandy — marketing specifically. it is a new sandy special _ marketing specifically. it is a new sandy special skills - marketing specifically. it is a new sandy special skills that| new sandy special skills that because it is not hard to click through and listen. there are things we have to do, that is a specific way of marketing yourself and talking about your show, knowing how to pitch your show. a lot of creators are not very good at that initially because they are not marketers or promoters. and then

promoting especially in big places like the guardian or the ft. ~ ., , places like the guardian or the ft. well, our viewers and listeners _ ft. well, our viewers and listeners can _ ft. well, our viewers and listeners can make - ft. well, our viewers and listeners can make up - ft. well, our viewers and i listeners can make up their ft. well, our viewers and - listeners can make up their own mind. kenny ethanjones. i mind. kenny ethanjones. i wasn't thinking about men's health. _ wasn't thinking about men's health. i_ wasn't thinking about men's health, i was thinking about being — health, i was thinking about being the best they could be, and that— being the best they could be, and that was my primary focus, and that was my primary focus, and i_ and that was my primary focus, and i came _ and that was my primary focus, and i came second to that, which _ and i came second to that, which looking back on it was not the _ which looking back on it was not the right decision. it is what — not the right decision. it is what i _ not the right decision. it is what i committed to. and for the most _ what i committed to. and for the most part, it destroyed my mental— the most part, it destroyed my mental health. it got to a point _ mental health. it got to a point where i found it very hard — point where i found it very hard to _ point where i found it very hard to find joy in my life because _ hard to find joy in my life because i was so consumed by the negatives. | because i was so consumed by the negatives.— the negatives. ithink, over time, the negatives. ithink, over time. a _ the negatives. ithink, over time, a kinda _ the negatives. ithink, over time, a kinda found - the negatives. ithink, over time, a kinda found a - the negatives. i think, over. time, a kinda found a balance with accepting is not all about living and this is the kind of discrimination trans people face but i am doing my best. but i also need to give myself a break within it and i can't continue to live this way.

sorry, kenny ethanjones. to find interviewees open up on a podcast on the way they might not in a video?i podcast on the way they might not in a video?— not in a video? i think so. there is _ not in a video? i think so. there is something - not in a video? i think so. there is something about| not in a video? i think so. - there is something about not being seen that makes you less self—conscious and more open to conversation. it also comes down to how good you are at asking questions in interviews. and, you know, really being curious and intuitive in a way conducting these interviews. i have done over a episodes now, so, i've had a lot of practice. it's been iterating and i've been able to get betterjust by virtue of having a lot of practice of asking those questions. i am still often getting responses of, wow, that is such a good question, no—one has ever asked me that. i've done a lot of podcast interviews. again, it'sjust looking at what does the listener want but what about this person in front of me? you

said it is getting _ this person in front of me? you said it is getting harder, i think i heard you say this, it is getting harder to get the word out. but, isn't it a gold rush with apple and spotify? there are all of the social media platforms where it doesn't cost anything. weighs it harder to get the word out than three orfour it harder to get the word out than three or four years ago? i don't understand that.- don't understand that. there are a lot _ don't understand that. there are a lot of _ don't understand that. there are a lot of podcasters - don't understand that. there are a lot of podcasters out i are a lot of podcasters out there. is it saturation? it's not as saturated as youtube or any other media, is just there is so much out there and it's really hard to distinguish what is good without pressing play, and pressing play requires a time commitment. so we did a little micrograph back in january, where we get about £10,000 to podcast creators starting out —— micro grant.

and they saw that loads and loads and loads of people would like to spend money on cameras and video setups, because they want to document their podcast in video, because that is how they think they are going to grow their show. they see youtube as the avenue to promote and grow themselves. it's challenging without having a way. there is not a tremendous amount of marketing out there to promote audio. it's hard to get people to get the time, if you look at a new podcast that is an hour and a0 minutes, i don't want an hour and a0 minutes to try out a new show. who has time for that, especially if you are new and you don't have a reputation for creating excellent work, it is too long. creating excellent work, it is too long-— too long. declan, i wonder if you could respond to that? l too long. declan, iwonder if. you could respond to that? you talk about wondery. i wonder if you are circumspect about the possibility there is this enormous consolidation with power going on with disney+ and

amazon here. and i want you to respond to that about imi seeing small innovators may be crowded out? last seeing small innovators may be crowded out?— crowded out? at inca provides more opportunity, _ crowded out? at inca provides more opportunity, candidly, . crowded out? at inca provides i more opportunity, candidly, the creators, — more opportunity, candidly, the creators, because there are more — creators, because there are more potential outlets for the stories — more potential outlets for the stories that they tell, and greater— stories that they tell, and greater audiences to listen to those — greater audiences to listen to those stories. we have a lot of producers _ those stories. we have a lot of producers in the uk that are working _ producers in the uk that are working with companies in the us for— working with companies in the us for their shows, and working with companies in the us fortheir shows, and i working with companies in the us for their shows, and i feel that— us for their shows, and i feel that providing the choice is going — that providing the choice is going to _ that providing the choice is going to help us of. —— more choice — going to help us of. —— more choice is _ going to help us of. —— more choice is going to help us all. we are — choice is going to help us all. we are still in the early days, even — we are still in the early days, even though 15 years into podcasting, still in the early days— podcasting, still in the early days of— podcasting, still in the early days of becoming that mass media — days of becoming that mass media consumption outlet. caroline? |

media consumption outlet. caroline?— media consumption outlet. caroline? . , , caroline? i actually completely a . ree. caroline? i actually completely agree- the _ caroline? i actually completely agree. the last _ caroline? i actually completely agree. the last time _ caroline? i actually completely agree. the last time i - caroline? i actually completely agree. the last time i was - caroline? i actually completely agree. the last time i was on | agree. the last time i was on the media show, one of the heads of the bbc said the same thing. it means there's a big expansion, more listeners come, and eventually landed independent podcasters. so, i think, while it is true it is becoming more well—known as a term and people knows what it means when you say podcast, the discoverability of independent creators, that still remains to be seen. like, you still need to have a relationship with a curator on a platform for you to be on the front page and be clicked on and discover. i think it is a yes and no answer to it declan said.— to it declan said. caroline, ou to it declan said. caroline, you are — to it declan said. caroline, you are nodding? - to it declan said. caroline, you are nodding? yeah, i to it declan said. caroline, l you are nodding? yeah, no,

to it declan said. caroline, i you are nodding? yeah, no, i airee you are nodding? yeah, no, i agree with — you are nodding? yeah, no, i agree with imi. _ you are nodding? yeah, no, i agree with imi. i _ you are nodding? yeah, no, i agree with imi. ithink- you are nodding? yeah, no, ij agree with imi. i think adding the word _ agree with imi. i think adding the word podcast into people's general— the word podcast into people's general vocabulary is great and the bbc— general vocabulary is great and the bbc and big publishers do that — the bbc and big publishers do that if— the bbc and big publishers do that. if you are listening to a bbc— that. if you are listening to a bbc podcast and the don't —— and _ bbc podcast and the don't —— and they— bbc podcast and the don't —— and they don't say, now listen to content— and they don't say, now listen to content is queen. i think the rising _ to content is queen. i think the rising tide lifts all boats metaphor only works to a certain— metaphor only works to a certain extent.— metaphor only works to a certain extent. a, , ., , certain extent. map, where does the bbc fit _ certain extent. map, where does the bbc fit into _ certain extent. map, where does the bbc fit into all— certain extent. map, where does the bbc fit into all of— certain extent. map, where does the bbc fit into all of this? - the bbc fit into all of this? what do you, matthew, reckon this means for them. can bbc sounds compete with spotify, apple, amazon?— sounds compete with spotify, apple, amazon? there's a big battle going — apple, amazon? there's a big battle going on _ apple, amazon? there's a big battle going on between - apple, amazon? there's a big| battle going on between apple and spotify, apple historically did very well, they helped start podcasting. they started the consumer podcasting boom. spotify have done a much better job in the last two years of promoting podcasts, making it a part of their app. one hundred

and 80 million people you spotify every month. and they have really gone for it and that has made apple try and catch up. one of the dangers is, and it can be for independent creators of bigger companies, is you sort of hold down the cracks in that battle. and spotify and apple are specifying their applications and services, and some of that is built on content, that is content from the bbc, that is content from the bbc, that is content from the people on this program, too. and it's not like netflix where they are writing big cheques to creators, they are offering a way to reach an audience. but spotify builds of companies that make their own shows. not only trying to get them on the platform, you are competing against their programmes. that will be more of a challenge, adding

subscription as well, that is difficult. with the bbc, they have massive scale, great programmes, bbc sounds does well, but can bbc sounds put subscription into their app like spotify and apple, probably not. people want one app to consume audio in. and then the still find the same challenges that smaller creators doing getting content promoted. programmes on radio 4, promoted. programmes on radio a, or on bbc sounds. they are battling for space on apple's pukallus store or spotify�*s. and we have seen reported spotify paid joe rogan $100 million to make his podcasts for them. and amazon paid 300 million for wondery? for them. and amazon paid 300 million forwondery? declan, million for wondery? declan, you million forwondery? declan, you don't have to confirm.

caroline, there is a concern people have about when you have these huge influxes of californian west coast companies coming in, you might have a culture of homogenisation? the netflix like companies of the world and disneys ruth view that, but —— refute that, but essentially a lot of these companies are coming from the west coast of america. do you worry about that for podcasting? i america. do you worry about that for podcasting?- that for podcasting? i don't worry about _ that for podcasting? i don't worry about it _ that for podcasting? i don't worry about it so _ that for podcasting? i don't worry about it so much - that for podcasting? i don't i worry about it so much related to california as a place, but i think that boom in podcasting and its success has driven a homogenisation of sound. i think the people here are really successful, they do a true crime show like serial. could serial happen with a different culture and different person? maybe if i make it sound like that, then fans of that show would like this one. and i think that happens. and

it gets parodied on shows like snl. with the background music. i think that kind of homogenisation could be a roblem. , problem. declan? one thing i was going _ problem. declan? one thing i was going to _ problem. declan? one thing i was going to mention. - problem. declan? one thing i was going to mention. what i problem. declan? one thing i| was going to mention. what is encouraging overviews that we have _ encouraging overviews that we have marketers and advertisers who are — have marketers and advertisers who are coming into the space and seeing the audience growth there _ and seeing the audience growth there i— and seeing the audience growth there. i think it was aia pwc report— there. i think it was aia pwc report for— there. i think it was aia pwc report for digital growth, podcasting had the highest increase in advertising investment over any digital media, _ investment over any digital media, a3%, it's like a rocket ship~ — media, a3%, it's like a rocket ship~ that _ media, a3%, it's like a rocket ship. that provides more funding _ ship. that provides more funding into the space for those _ funding into the space for those who are creating great stories — those who are creating great stories that need to be told. thank— stories that need to be told. thank you to all of myjust. declan moore at wondery. gimmie morgan. and others. i'll be back next week.

hello. when it comes to bank holiday weather, our expectations are normally low, but even they were undercut by what just happened. up to two inches of rain in the wettest parts of scotland, but very few avoided a spell of lashing rain. a wind gust over 90mph off the south coast of england. even where the rain held off until late in the day, the temperature only reached ia celsius, and that's the lowest high temperature the uk has had on the early may bank holiday, so that makes it the coldest early may bank holiday on record. it's not going to feel any warmer during tuesday. it'll still be windy, though not quite as windy, and there'll be showers around as the area of low pressure that did for the bank holiday weather pulls away into the north sea. the flow of air behind that, though, coming down from the north, that means temperatures below average for the time of year, feeling colder in the wind and the showers around of which there will be plenty from the word go though not much in the way of frost to start the day. that is going to change, though, as we go through the week ahead, so back to a risk of overnight frost.

gales close to these north sea coasts where it's been windiest overnight in southern england and south wales. won't be as windy by the time we get to mid—morning. there are areas with showers moving south, perhaps some longer spells of rain in parts of northern england. brightening up later in north—east scotland. not many showers in southern england and south wales. the winds at their strongest along the north sea coasts and across parts of eastern england. very gusty, but again easing later. catch a shower, hail, thunder — with temperatures like this, it'll be wintry over the hills in scotland. some places will not get into double figures. now, on through tuesday evening and night, some showers continue to feed south. it's where it gets clearest overnight — northern england and parts of scotland — we're going to have frost going into wednesday morning, so it will be a cold start. and wednesday will be a day of sunshine and showers. again, there will be a wintry flavour to these showers in places with hail and some snow on the higher hills in scotland, northern england, perhaps into wales as well. it's not going to feel any warmer. we're back to the risk of overnight frost. a similar picture on thursday — further showers, wintry on hills moving south and maybe a spell of rain flirting

with the south coast of england, so we're going to keep a close eye on that. friday will be another chilly day of sunshine and showers and going into the weekend, here comes another area of low pressure. more wind and rain, though as the wind changes direction to a southerly, it may turn much warmerfor a time, especially in parts of england.

need real welcome to bbc news — i'm lewis vaughanjones. our top stories: one of the world's richest couples — bill and melinda gates — announce they are to divorce after 27 years of marriage. the european commission recommends easing restrictions on travel — as the debate begins on whether it's safe go on holiday. a landmark trial begins in the us against tech giant apple — it's accused of anti—competitive behaviour relating to its app—store. the pandemic has seen a significant rise of abuse towards people of asian background in the uk and us. speak to some of those who have been affected. a landmark trial begins in the us against tech giant apple, the makers of

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