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now on bbc news... hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. month by month, us president joe biden is shifting away from trump era foreign policy positions. but how dramatic will the pivot be? in the middle east, there are signs of a changed approach to the region's two oil—rich adversaries, saudi arabia and iran. more pressure on the saudis, more engagement with tehran. my guest is the influential boss of saudi arabia's al arabiya english news channel, mohammed alyahya. have the saudis forfeited america's unstinting support? mohammed alyahya in dubai, welcome to hardtalk.

thank you for having me. it's a pleasure to have you on the show. would you accept that life has become much more difficult for saudi arabia under the presidency in washington ofjoe biden than it was under donald trump? ithink, you know, us—saudi relations have always had their ups and downs and, you know, disagreement between the united states and saudi arabia has never reached 100%. the disagreements that we saw under the obama administration are very similar with the disagreements we're seeing today, that notjust saudi arabia, but other regional actors have with the biden administration. namely, it is, you know, appeasing the iranian regime, returning to the flawed nuclear

deal and the consequences that it had on the region. so, you know, as a result of this administration's middle east policy, saudi arabia does not have it easy. gulf countries do not have it easy. but i think the actors in the region that will suffer, i think, the most as a result of the biden administration's middle east posture, as we see it right now at this time, are countries like iraq and syria and lebanon and yemen, where an empowered iran can cause more destruction, can cultivate its proxies even more, undermine state institutions in those countries even more. so, you know, the more billions we see going into iran's pockets and the rgc�*s pockets, the revolutionary guards in iran, the more suffering we will see in the region, concentrated in areas outside the gulf. yeah, interesting. i ask you about saudi diplomacy, and you choose to train yourfire on iran. i guess we might have expected that. but nonetheless, surely saudi arabia has to learn some

lessons and learn them quick. and one lesson that surely is coming from america right now is that saudi's war in yemen has been an absolute disaster. so, is saudi ready to reverse course, reassess? saudi arabia has already done that, and, you know, i disagree with the characterisation of the war as a saudi war. it's fundamentally a civil war in yemen, between the government there, the legitimate government — backed by un resolution 2216, and by the united kingdom and the united states — on one hand, and the iranian—backed proxy, the houthi militia. saudi military operations in yemen are not nearly as frequent as they were in the past. today, saudi arabia has put a ceasefire agreement, a comprehensive one, on the table right now that the houthis are yet to accept. and we can see that the iranian—backed militia in that

country, ansarullah, the houthis, after the foreign terrorist organisation designation was lifted by the biden administration, did not wait more than one day to march on marib and to consolidate those gains in yemen, and lob rockets into saudi arabia and escalate. and that was a predictable development after the signals that came from the white house. i mean, the iranians consolidated their gains in syria, lebanon, iraq, right after the 2015 nuclear deal was signed by president obama. so it's not a secret what an empowered and wealthy revolutionary guards and tehran is capable of doing. well, again... they see a similar iran—us policy and they're acting the same way they acted before. mr alyahya, the geopolitics of all of this is important, but maybe even more important is the humanitarian aspect. the world food programme chief, david beasley, says the situation right now in yemen is, quote, "hell, absolutely horrendous. "there are 16 million yemenis who are deeply food insecure. "many of that number are facing

a very real threat of famine." now, the international community wants saudi to end its blockade of key ports to allow humanitarian aid to flow in much quicker and more efficiently. is saudi arabia ready to do that? irrespective of talk of a nationwide ceasefire, is saudi ready to lift that blockade? of course, i mean, saudi arabia is the number one provider of humanitarian aid to yemen, both directly and through united nations organs, and it's been doing that even before the war started. and the humanitarian situation before the war was also a dire one, it's not come as a result... saudi arabia... forgive me, saudi arabia is still blockading key ports. it is stopping aid getting to places it needs to be. will that blockade... ? is your news channel... is your news channel reporting the truth about this? of course it's reporting

the truth about this. we have people on the ground in yemen. almost all yemen's ports are actually open right now. some airport, there are restrictions on there, and there are some restrictions on hodeidah. the problem with hodeidah right now is that it's one of the most important places for the iran—backed houthi militia to take hold of in order to continue its ground offensive. saudi arabia has repeatedly offered the un to take full control of hodeidah, including its port, and that hasn't led to anywhere that is workable yet. but again, saudi arabia does have a full—fledged and comprehensive ceasefire agreement on the table right now that includes opening all ports. that was answered by iran, by its houthis, with a brutal offensive on marib, one of the cities that is not yet under houthi control, but is deeply threatened by the houthis. and, you know, one thing that's important to mention that we don't see nearly enough, especially in western media coverage of the war

in yemen, is the humanitarian situation of people that are living under the rule of houthis — in sana'a and taiz and elsewhere. the reality of the matter is that after ali abdullah saleh, who was not a saint by any means, exited this alliance with the houthis, after they executed him at the behest of iran, we saw no limits to the brutality of the houthis. we've seen systematic rape in theirjails, we've seen assassinations ofjournalists, we've seen assassinations of civil society members. i mean, living under houthi areas has been nothing short of hell. listen, i want to stop you... and that's one of the problems with lifting the foreign terrorist organisation designation. i want to stop you cos it's important that this is a question and answer session, and you're saying very interesting things, and there is no doubt that the humanitarian suffering and the violence is on both sides of the front line in yemen, no doubt about that at all. but i'm just wondering for you, as a news channel majority owned by the saudi state, whether you report the truth about the scale of saudi

bombing of yemen, the impact it's had on civilians across the country, the unbelievable figures, frankly — more than 20,000 air strikes by the saudi—led coalition since the war began. human rights watch documenting at least 90, apparently unlawful, saudi—led coalition air strikes. do you tell the truth about all of this on your saudi—owned channel? of course, i mean, some of the most detailed and around—the—clock coverage of the yemen war, especially when the majority of the fighting happened, which is not the past year, was covered on al arabiya, and representatives of the houthis were on the channel. representatives of iran were invited as guests on the channel. you know, if you ask any arabic speaker that does watch al arabiya, it's probably one of the only places to go to understand the conflict, to hear points of views of people from both sides of the conflict, and the geopolitical consequences of that. the biden administration

has ended its support for the saudi—led coalition�*s offensive. it is reviewing all saudi arms sales. you obviously have close links to the saudi government for all sorts of different reasons, many of them journalistic. is it your view that the very top leadership in saudi arabia now understands that this war has to be brought to an end very quickly? well, it's important to note that this is not saudi arabia's war. the reality of the matter is that is a war between the legitimate government in yemen, abdrabbuh mansur hadi's government — which is backed by un resolution 2216, backed by the united kingdom, by france, by the united states, to name just a few countries — and on the other side, an iran—backed houthi militia that has acted and conducted itself in a very criminal fashion, that has weaponised aid. and as we mentioned, you know, has systematic abuse, torture, rape in its prisons.

so for saudi arabia to withdraw will not solve yemen's problems. saudi arabia is in close cooperation today, from what i understand, speaking to officials with the united states, saudi arabia has drew back a lot of its military operations in yemen today. and just to clarify, what happened today is that the united states has suspended offensive military aid to saudi arabia and yemen. 0r military support rather, it's not aid because... and what we're seeing is that defensive capabilities in saudi arabia are still supported by the americans. now, the line between defensive and offensive is still a matter of contention, but the reality is that saudi military operations in yemen have come almost to a complete standstill. yeah. that sheds light on something more important here. that's an interesting fact. that was an interesting fact. saudi's stopping... yeah. you allude to it... saudi stopping the war is not a panacea to yemen's problems.

you allude to an interesting fact — that offensive operations have been scaled back. and i would put it to you that there are clear signs the saudi government, of course led by crown prince mohammed bin salman, is fundamentally changing its message because of the pressure from the united states, not least its message on iran. if i look backjust a few years, mbs was likening the supreme leader ayatollah khomeini in iran to hitler. and now we learn that just a few weeks ago, just a few days ago, in fact, saudi officials were having meetings with the iranians, and recently mbs said, quote, "we do not want for iran to be in a difficult situation. "we want iran to prosper and grow." it sounds like the tone is changing. i mean, i don't think there's a real change in what the saudis or other gulf partners in the region hope to see from iran. i think the descriptions

of iran from the past are still accurate. but, you know, saudi arabia and other gulf countries and arab countries in general would love to see an iran that leverages its strength. iran is a very rich country, it has 80 million people in its population. it has ski slopes, it has beautiful areas by the caspian sea. it has industry, it has a rich heritage, rich history. iran has every single ingredient to be a leading actor in the region that leads by example, that works towards economic prosperity, that adds value to its neighbours and also receives value from its neighbours. mr alyahya, i don't think we need to be talking too much about iran's ski slopes. i think what we need to be realistic about is that despite everything saudi arabia has tried to achieve in diplomatic terms, the us is determined to try to rejoin the so—called jcpoa, the agreement

on iran's nuclear programme. that is very much alive. saudi arabia doesn't like it, but is going to have to learn to live with it. that's the truth, isn't it? of course, of course, and that will be difficult for saudi arabia because an empowered iran is a national security threat for saudi arabia. it's also a national security threat for israel and various other arab governments. but, you know... are you saying... hang on. are you saying the americans are idiots, then, that they don't even understand what's in their own national security interests? no, no. i mean, there have been many policies that have backfired and were poorly constructed and they were drafted by people who are not idiots. i mean, to call every author of a bad policy an idiot, i think would be a very tediousjob, stephen. let's talk about saudi arabia's broader international reputation. now, i'm thinking not so much about diplomacy and geopolitics. i'm thinking about the way people around the world have come to see saudi arabia.

now, you are a very senior saudi journalist. would you share with me the feeling that the murder, the brutal murder of jamal khashoggi in the consulate in istanbul, which was perpetrated by saudi officials who, according to american intelligence, were operating under orders from the very top, that has done immense and lasting damage to saudi's reputation, yes? i would agree, i would agree, and i knewjamal khashoggi, and he was a dear friend, and i think that his murder was a huge shock in saudi arabia before it was outside of saudi arabia, and it's something that runs against the history of saudi policy and its conduct. and that's why we saw, you know, the insistence on completing the investigations and trials into the people that were responsible for this, swiftly and thoroughly. and that's what the saudis

have embarked on. but the investigations haven't been completed, have they? they haven't gone to the very top because the people who carried the can for this were relatively low—level functionaries and officials. and, as i say, that us intelligence document makes it quite plain that authorisation of this operation, murderous operation, went to the very, very top and clearly involved the crown prince himself. so the intelligence document was just repeating what any, you know, basic analyst with exposure to saudi arabia would tell you. of course, the people that were involved were government officials. they were people that were close to decision making circles. and that's what made the crime

even more egregious than it is. so there was nothing really new in that report. there was certainly nothing that, you know, condemned the crown prince himself. essentially, there was nothing new in it. forgive me, but the conclusion that the crown prince approved the operation, the conclusion, as was in the document, the crown prince approved the operation, the murder. you're telling me that that's not significant? that's not true. what the report said was that it was unlikely that the crown prince didn't know about the operation because of the proximity of the people that were involved in it. that's not a conclusion. that's an observation that many people have made and many people can make and continue to make, but that's in no way evidence. that's no way a conclusion that would hold up in any court of law. well, as you've pointed out to me, you're a seniorjournalist. and not only that, you're a real friend, were a friend of the late mr khashoggi. i'm sure you are much more aware of me of the degree to which jamal khashoggi

himself feared that his end would come in this sort of way. he had told people, i don't know if he told you personally, but he described in his newspaper column how he had been informed by saudi al-qahtani himself, a very key lieutenant of crown prince mbs. he'd been told that he was no longer allowed to tweet, not allowed to write, not allowed to talk. qahtani had said to him, "you cannot do anything any more. you are done." now, you're a saudi journalist, you're a friend ofjamal khashoggi, and it sounds to me like you don't want to accept that this goes to the very top of the state which now owns your channel. no, it's not about accepting or not accepting. i'm not going to sling mud without any shred of evidence, and that's what we've been seeing a lot of throughout this time and the coverage ofjamal khashoggi's murder. the reality is jamal khashoggi never told me personally that and any observer that sees the politicisation of jamal�*s case would understand that all sorts of leaks, all sorts of hearsay has been peddled and spread in this case. we saw it with the leaks in turkey, we saw it with the leaks in the united states. we saw it everywhere. i mean, this was a political football that didn't lastjust for one week, two weeks, three weeks. it lasted for many,

many months. what we can go by is the facts of the case, the realities of the case and the trials that happened, and for... see, i'm very interested in the way you, because you are a senior commentator and journalist, as well as running the channel al arabiya in english, you characterise saudi arabia as being, if i can put it this way, in tune with a sort of modernising, reforming trend across parts of the arab world. this is a quote from you. "young people are much more "in tune with other young people these days "in other parts of the world. what these young arabs "are rejecting is antiquated, archaic theocratic ideology, "which they've been spoon—fed, controlled by groups "like iran's revolutionary guards." that approach no longer works, you say, but who are you kidding? i mean, saudi arabia is no reformed, modernised society. it is still run along deeply authoritarian, ideologically conservative

lines, is it not? no, no, it's not. i mean, it was. that might have been a fair characterisation ten years ago, but if you ask anybody that's visited saudi arabia ten years ago and visited today, they would tell you that they see two different countries. the reality is that today young women in saudi arabia have the right to drive. they have the right to, more importantly than drive, you know, live alone without recourse. they can travel without the permission of male guardians. they can attend university and choose their majors without the permission of male guardians. they can take jobs, choose their careers without the permission of male guardians, and that's more than what women can do in other gulf countries and other arab countries, certainly more than women can do in iran. all that happened in lightning speed. and that's a reflection, of course, of the government's will to reform, but also of what i mentioned in the article that you cited — young people are ready

for this. you know, the myth that saudi society was conservative and wouldn't accept these changes and had to move slowly was shattered very, very quickly in saudi arabia. this new saudi arabia you're alluding to doesn't seem to match the saudi arabia that i see. let's be very specific. you run... hang on. have you visited saudi arabia? when was the last time you visited? yeah, i actually visited the king abdullah economic city to see this sort of modernisation programme taking flesh. as it happens, that city doesn't really seem to have gotten very far, but i'm more interested in basic statistics. you tell me, as a saudi journalist, how many political prisoners are there in saudi arabia today? i can't give you a numberfor that. why not? because, you know, the issue

of political prisoners is an extremely politicised one. excuse me, you've just told me... hang on, hang on. you'vejust told me... many, many, many... you've just told me this is a modernised, reformed saudi arabia where rights are respected, not least of women. surely in this modern, much more democratised saudi arabia, you, as an investigative journalist, working as a boss of a news channel, could find out how many political prisoners the kingdom holds. but that's a loaded question, that's an extremely loaded question, because many of the people that you would consider political prisoners are in fact not political prisoners, but prisoners who have been tried and convicted of various other crimes. you know, you can take the example of one gentleman who was tried and convicted recently who was in yemen trying to cooperate and join al-qaeda in that country. and he was described by the state department as an aid worker. he ran a twitter account that condemned saudi arabia's support for the anti—isis coalition, saying that this will open saudi arabia for attacks and sympathising with isis.

you know, many people would consider that free speech and consider it freedom of expression for him to go and support al-qaeda in the arabian peninsula. that's important to consider that the entire al-qaeda contingent in saudi arabia, almost all of it has moved to yemen. so, you know... the thing is... the thing is you can read the amnesty international reports, the human rights watch reports. you can see that there are still many individuals who have done nothing more than dissent against the government who are locked up. we know that for a fact. you may not want to acknowledge it, but we know it for a fact. when you told me that women have these extraordinary new rights in saudi arabia, the truth is a woman in saudi arabia cannot file a lawsuit on her own today. they still, women still need permission from a male relative to marry or live on their own.

and those women who disobey their "guardian" can still face arrest. so i'm just wondering why you portray it... that's not true. women can live on their own without the permission of their guardian. i never said they couldn't live on their own without permission. i just said that those who disobey their guardian can still face arrest. all of this is true. i just wonder why you as a journalist do not present the truth about what's happening in saudi arabia today. is it because you're owned by the saudi state and you know what happens to journalists who speak out against the leadership in saudi arabia, because your friend was jamal khashoggi? you know, i think these are very low blows and unbecoming of the bbc, frankly, but the reality of the matter is that there is a long ways to go still in terms of women empowerment in saudi arabia. there's still a long ways to go in terms of legal reform in saudi arabia. many of the problems that we've seen have been longstanding. you know, saudi arabia's taken baby steps in introducing women's education in the country over the past years. today, we're seeing

improvements in women's rights happening at a much faster rate inside saudi arabia. you know, the reality of the matter is that it is still a work in progress, and it's one that is happening at varying rates on several different files. mohammed alyahya, i'm sorry to cut you off, but we do have to end there. i thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you. hello there. the weather is set to change a bit this weekend as the wind direction changes. at the moment, though, we've still got that cool northerly airflow and that means more showers, heavy showers again during thursday. certainly a dramatic day on wednesday, lots of downpours, hail and some

thunder in there as well. a lot of those showers have faded away, so we've got a cold start. may be a frosty start in places on thursday morning. not as cold in the southwest where there is more cloud moving in. that's going to bring a bit of rain and drizzle that will run its way along the south coast through the english channel for a while. but could be a bit snowy to start with in scotland. snow levels will tend to rise, but these heavy showers will move across scotland into northern england. fewer showers for northern ireland roster may see some sharp showers in the southeast corner of england for a while, there should be fewer showers through the midlands, wales and southern england. temperatures still only nine to 12 degrees. another chilly feeling day. and despite some sunshine. as we head into the evening we will see those showers continuing to move their way southwards, fading away for most inland areas overnight. that means temperatures are going to fall away. it's going to be another cold night. there is a risk of a frost, but may not be quite as cold by friday morning.

plenty of sunshine to start the day. we will see the cloud developing, and a few showers breaking out as we head into the afternoon. most of those heavier and perhaps thundery showers with hail confined to eastern scotland and some eastern parts of england. turning dryer further west. temperatures should be a little bit higher on friday, but still no better than 14, maybe 15 degrees. now into the weekend that changes are promised. we've got another area of low pressure. that is going to strengthen the wind and these weather fronts will bring some rain up from the southwest. looks like it's going to be a southerly wind that brings that rain and eventually that will introduce some warmer air, especially during the second half of the weekend. wet weather, though, i think for england and wales on saturday and for a while in northern ireland the rain moves slowly northwards into scotland where it's going to be a cold day here. temperatures across england and wales away from the north should get up to 14 or 15 degrees. maybe a touch warmer than that in the southeast if it brightens up as the rain clears later in the day. we should be turning more showery, i think, during sunday and with that warmer air across most areas, 19 or 20 as possible in the southeast. it cools down on monday, but the showers will continue.

this is bbc news — i'm lewis vaughanjones with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. in a bid to bridge the vaccine gap, the united states backs an initiative to waive intellectual property protections for coronavirus vaccines. facebook upholds its suspension of donald trump, ruling that the former president broke the platform's standards and rules. the uk is sending two patrol vessels to monitor a planned blockade ofjersey�*s main port. it's the latest escalation with france over post—brexit fishing rights. after benjamin netanyahu fails to form a new israeli government — his rival yair lapid is asked to try to form a coalition.