in gaza city as the unrest intensifies — residents had been warned to get out. as rockets reached a suburb of tel aviv — benjamin netanhayu said the palestinians would pay a heavy price. some 30 people, israelis and palestinians, have been killed. seven school children and two adults have been killed in a shooting at a school in the russian city of kazan. security forces stormed the school and detained the suspected attacker — a nineteen year old former pupil. in the us, there have been long lines at petrol stations, as some drivers have been panic—buying fuel in case prices rise in the days ahead. it's a knock—on effect of last week's cyber attack on a major us fuel pipeline — the colonial pipeline says it hopes to have substantial operations back under way by the end of the week. now on bbc news — hardtalk.

welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. we've reached the point in the global pandemic where the impacts are varying dramatically. here in the uk, the infection rate is largely contained. the roll—out of the vaccine is having its effect. but in many other parts of the world, the situation is still critical. and with this patchwork pandemic, how dangerous would it be to resume international travel and tourism? well, my guest today is greece's minister of tourism, haris theoharis. could tourism prolong the pandemic?

haris theoharis, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. thank you for inviting me. it's a pleasure to have you here in london. you are here to tell the world that greece is now open for tourism and for business. but the truth is, greece still has a very serious covid problem. well, i wouldn't call it serious, but it's as serious as many countries in europe. the third wave has been hitting europe hard, but we are over the apex. the numbers are getting better day by day. and i think greece is ready with a complete, mature and professional system to allow people again during the summer season. right. but one of the gauges of how countries are doing is notjust the infection rate —

and your infection rate spiked in april, but it's coming down — but it's also about how many vaccines you're delivering. and you're one of the slowest countries in europe to get your people vaccinated. and everybody else around the world is going to see that. and they're going to worry. no, we're not one of the slowest countries. i would dispute that. but you're in the bottom five. oh, no, no! i'm afraid the figures say you are. our system is a very complete system in terms of vaccinating people. we keep every second dose and we keep both appointments for everyone. so we're not pushing ahead quicker than the vaccines that we have. so as soon as we get the vaccines, we use them immediately. we vaccinate 1.1% of the population daily. and that's, you know, one of the best rates currently in europe. but the fact is, what, about a quarter of your population has had a vaccine. you're in london where the rate is something like two—thirds of the entire population has had at least a first dose. so you are... i'm not disputing that. of course, the uk is one of the leaders in terms of the vaccination rate. you have chosen a single—dose strategy, by and large. we have a different strategy.

but the point is, of course, that we are constrained by the vaccine delivery that the europe as a whole has. but i assure you, we have a very professional system, a complete system that uses every vaccine as soon as we get it. we're very mindful that back in the summer of last year when, of course, you were tourism minister at the time, greece took the decision to invite tourists back. and what we saw in the autumn was a very serious second wave in greece, which the greek people, according to all of the opinion polls i've seen, clearly linked and associated with the decision to let foreign visitors back in. are you not in danger of making the same mistake all over again? this is an understandable attitude that normally people in countries have, that it's really about the foreigners, or this is more, if you like, importing the problem. the reality is this — that during the summer, we did not have the second wave, the spike. the popular tourist... you had it in the autumn, after all these visitors had been in your country.

we had it at the same time as germany did, and the north of europe. so we had it with the rest of europe. so effectively, tourism did not have anything to do with it. it's really the winter. it's really the ebbs and flows of the disease that everybody had to endure. so every number that we have seen and research points that... koch institute, this is a german research, shows that tourism did not affect greece's numbers and actually it did not even affect germany's numbers on the way back. well, i think your own public are a little sceptical about that, according to surveys i've seen of the greek public opinion. but there's another problem, too, when it comes to confidence and trust — it seems to me you have over—promised and you've under—delivered. for example, your government said that in order to get tourism going again, you would focus on the greek islands, the famous greek islands where so many people

want to visit. you said that you would have them fully vaccinated by the end of april. well, here we are in may, and you're nowhere near having the greek island population fully vaccinated. we never promised that all the islands will be vaccinated by the end of april. we promised that the first batch of the islands, the smaller batch of the islands will be vaccinated. and they are. 32 islands have been already vaccinated. the second batch of another 36 islands will be completed by the end of may, and there is a plan of completing the wall of immunity well withinjune. so ready for the peak of the season, which is injuly and august. we all read the newspapers, minister. you will know that we know that, for example, in one greek island, kalymnos, they've had to go into a local lockdown in the last week because of a dangerous surge in new covid cases. again — confidence, trust. people read that, and they think maybe greece isn't a great idea.

i think that's the other way around. what this shows you, this example, is the fact that we are not afraid to take the difficult decisions, we will take whatever local measures are necessary without any willingness to hide things under the rug, as it were, to ensure everybody�*s safety. greece has managed to fare slightly better, i would say, throughout the crisis, than the rest of europe. and the reason we did that is because we took the health and safety of both our citizens and our visitors seriously. i remind you that other countries last season, after the end of the season, where, you know, the bulk of the tourists had already come and gone, they announced that they did not talk about the full number of cases, the people without symptoms, the asymptomatic cases, but only the people with symptoms. this is not something that greece is doing. we are full...fully transparent. and this is part of the reason why i am here as well. but we had a great discussion and transparency throughout

last season with the relevant authorities of the uk. your timing in launching greece — and i think you're choosing the date may 14th to say, you know, we are open for business, tourists, please come visit in the way that you have in previous years — the timings a little unfortunate. before we get to what the british government is saying, look at the us state department. they have put greece on the list of countries designated as level four with the simple message, "do not travel." that's what the americans are saying about greece right now. they're saying it about the uk as well. so they're saying it about 80% of the globe. of course, every country has its own right, it's a sovereign decision to categorise and use whatever traffic light system or whatever categorisation system they want to use. we are maintaining that these are our numbers. and according to the criteria that we would have put, greece is certainly in the lower end of the... the problem, minister... those decisions are sovereign. we're fine.

we're still in a global pandemic. and here you are, a minister for tourism, trying to encourage the world to get mobile and to travel. and it's a message that many governments around the world simply cannot live with. they can't share your strategy. here you are, again, about timing, in london, at the very moment that the uk government has issued a list of countries which they're now calling the green list, where travel can be conducted by british tourists and visitors without quarantine when they return, greece is not on the green list. greece is on an amber list and it means people will have to quarantine when they come home. what's your message to the british government? well, the message is that, of course, this is a decision that they have to make on their own terms and with their own data. we're here to explain. and... do you think they've got it wrong? well, we think that they could have taken, for example, a more regional approach. they could have taken an approach they took

last summer, where not the whole of the country is in a specific list, but, for example, the islands, where the numbers are better, could be in a list. we also welcome the fact that this kind of wording is in the foreign office's website. so there is a... there is a wording that points toward that direction, that, for example, crete or the ionian or the aegean islands are places that people could travel. but the bottom line is, in an average year, you get a vast amount of your tourist revenues from british tourists, and, as things stand, they're not going to be going to greece right now because they would have to quarantine when they come home. it's just not realistic. of course it's not realistic. that's why we're here to discuss with the government all the details, the data that they might need in order to review their decision when they have the review schedule. if i'm not mistaken, it's every three weeks. so we need to ensure that they at least have all the information necessary or relevant in order to make

an informed decision. that's all we're asking for. minister, are you, to be blunt about it, putting economics before public health? no, we're not, to be very precise and clear about it. in terms of my message, we're taking a balanced approach. i willjust remind you that, just recently, wttc, the world travel and tourism council, one of the most prestigious private sector bodies in tourism in the world, awarded us the global award for excellence in terms of the covid response. so what we're saying is that we need to keep a balance. we need to keep a balance in terms of the economic activity and, of course, in terms of the health and safety. but there is no balance, because the greek economy isn't balanced. the truth is, you are massively dependent on tourism. i think almost 20% of your entire national income comes from travel and tourism. so you are, to use that word again, dependent on reviving this business, even at the risk of stoking the flames of the pandemic. well, i'm not sure if

the word is dependence. i mean, i can understand... i can't think of any other word. sure, i can understand it, but let's just say, first of all, that europe is the region, which is the most touristically developed in the world. so on average, more than 10% of europe's revenue and gdp comes from tourism. so this is an important industry, in any case. you're here proclaiming greece open for full tourism business as of may 14th. the french government is being much more cautious. they're saying we'll look at it again injune. and if we do open up to tourists injune, they are absolutely going to have to travel with some sort of a vaccine passport or proof that they are completely without any risk of covid—i9. why can't europe take a unified position? because in some european capitals, it looks like you greeks arejumping the gun. you're being irresponsible. not really. we are being actually proactive. what we're saying is

that the digital green pass, it's a greek idea. we sent a letter, our prime minister sent a letter onjanuary 12th to ursula von der leyen saying that this is an idea that we should develop in order to underpin our return to normality. and this is something that has, you know, progressed a lot and it's on the brink of actually being implemented. so this is a very, very important step on the way. isn't it true that the pandemic has ensured that tourism will never be quite the same again? not in the foreseeable future, anyway. i mean, the truth is, when people get to greece, and you're proclaiming how open you are, they will still have to act in a different way. there will be social distancing. of course. there will be masks in public places. nightclubs won't be operating in the way they used to across the greek islands. all sorts of things will be different about people's vacations, their holidays. are you convinced people want to go on holiday in that situation? yes, i am convinced, because we saw it last year.

so this is not... if you asked me that question a year ago, i would have many doubts. but we saw this in practice last year. so... and this is, if you like, the core of the message. the message is that this is not laissez faire. this is not a licence without any preconditions to come to greece or to come to any destination and just have fun the way we used to have fun before the pandemic. so fun isn't on the agenda? of course fun is on the agenda, but is not the same way, because of course we will have social distancing. of course we have protocols. but those protocols do not alter the core of experiences, which is relaxation. and part of that relaxation is being sure the people next to you are also vaccinated, or they have a negative test. that's why we... let me explain. ..we have preconditions before you travel, like vaccination, like the negative test, or recovery certificates. we have, at the borders,

random testing and target assessing with an artificial intelligence system that targets our testing facilities to where the risk is. so this is an important part. we have quarantine hotels. we had them last year, hotels where we actually isolate people and their families if they are tested positive. and of course we have those protocols that you mentioned, the social distancing, the mask wearing, all those things that will keep us safe. and finally, the vaccination drive that we mentioned, both in terms of the islands and, of course, the people working in the industry. do you acknowledge the tourism business in greece will never be quite as big, going forward, as it was in the past, both in terms of the overall numbers, the many millions who visited every summer, and also the revenues? it isn't going to be quite as good in the future as it was in the past, is it? well, there are going to be many long—term changes happening in the tourism industry. and i can acknowledge that. we saw trends that... we saw them before the pandemic accelerate, like, for example, people working late.

the more digital experience, the more slow tourism. those things have been accelerated. some things are going back. there's a lot of single—use plastic because people are afraid. you know, all the sustainability on the environmental side has taken one step back and the fear of safety has taken the front seat. so, we will see a lot of changes. and of course it will take time before we reach the same kind of levels that we saw back in 2019 or 2018. because you sit on the world travel organization's council, i think, special committee on sort of crisis management. that's right. isn't one of the messages of the pandemic that we need to reconsider many different ways in which the world has worked, and one of those ways we need to reconsider is how people travel, how many assumptions we make about our right to have international holidays, to cheap airfares? it's notjust about responding to coronavirus.

it's also about responding to the state of our planet. and would you accept, as a tourism minister, that you need to rethink how tourism works in your country and the degree of dependency you have on it? i have no problem agreeing with that. at the same time, we need to think about all those lost jobs. we need to think about supporting of communities that, through tourism, they have the revenue required in order to make those smaller communities sustainable economically. so we need to look at all those things together at the same time. but there is no doubt that we have to strategically realign the tourism industry. this is a right assumption. let's switch track a little bit, because i'm mindful that you're a minister in a government which has, over the last year and more, been seen by the international community as flouting international law in a way that has tarnished your country's reputation. i'm thinking of the way you handle the migration crisis, and the numbers of people who are crossing

the mediterranean trying to enter greek waters and to get access to greek territory. you flout international law in the way you push those people away. do you acknowledge, as tourism minister, it is bad for greece's reputation? it would have been bad if it were true, but it's not true. in any case, this is happening to the borders being patrolled together with frontex, an international organisation, a european organisation. one of the sources which tells us that greece is violating international law is actually from frontex itself. there have been leaked reports saying that frontex is deeply dissatisfied with particular incidents when greek boats with greek security personnel on board have indeed forced migrants out of greek waters, back where they came from. we are patrolling our borders in the way which is compliant with international law. any incidents that may have

happened are being dealt with in the usual manner of investigation, in the usual channels... if i may say, i don't know how much research you've done on this, but the border violence monitoring network, a reputable organisation which tries to keep tabs on what greece and other countries are doing with migrants, it has powerful evidence that there has been "disproportionate, excessive use of force", "extremely cruel examples of police violence "documented in 2020 included prolonged excessive beatings, "often of naked or semi—naked bodies, "water immersion, physical abuse of women and children, "the use of metal rods to inflict injury." all of this on migrants by your country's security personnel. well, i mean, any of those allegations, i'm sure there are channels and they've been investigated. and if there are any truth

in the matter, they will be dealt in a normalfashion... well, your country has been taken to the european court of human rights. well, of course. and if that's the case... well, it is the case. ..the case will be dealt according to the standards in international law. i assure you, our government is committed to adhering to international law. there is no doubt about that. at the same time, of course, we will not accept the migration issue being used as a weapon against our country. another thought about greece and its reputation and standing in the world, it's a more general point about the state of your economy and what is happening to the greek people. 2008 is a long time ago in political terms. and yet, for all of your efforts to recover from the financial crash and the bailout money you've received from the european union, one—third of all young greek adults are still out of work.

why is it that, for all of the measures taken and the help given, the greek economy is still in such a parlous place? well, the greek economy, of course, has gone through a ten—year financial crisis, which was a very, very difficult period. and of course, that has left its mark. and at the same time, as we were coming out of this crisis, spreading outwards, as it were, in terms of growth again, this pandemic happened. what has happened is that greece is, if you like, during this pandemic, is the positive surprise of the pandemic. all the international institutes... really? all the international institutions... your gdp is frankly barely half of what it was before the financial crash. i mean, you're in a hole and it's very hard to see the country ever getting out of it. well, a lot of investment is currently happening in greece, the international institutions. just last year, the consensus was that our drop in gdp because of the pandemic would have been

around minus 10.5. the actual numbers were 8.2 — much, much better. that's almost 2%—2.5% of gdp better than the consensus. so what i'm saying is that during the crisis, a very difficult period for everyone, of course, a difficult period for greece, you said how important already tourism has been and how difficult it has been for tourism, in particular globally, greece has managed to over—perform, has managed to deal with this in a professional manner. and i think we're well poised in returning back to growth. all the institutions project good growth both for this year and the next one. a final thought for you, minister. and again, it comes out of your trip to london. you want a very positive relationship with the british government and with the british people, because, of course, you want to encourage us all to visit greece. there is one very thorny issue. notjust notjust because we want you to visit greece, because we share our values,

because we share a common. ..common history together... well, there's one thing... ..we�*ve been together in many good times and bad times, in wars and in...in peaceful times. so this is... there's one thing you're not quite keen on sharing... quite so keen on sharing with the british. and that is the parthenon, the magnificent, unique parthenon sculptures sometimes known in the uk as the elgin marbles, which was taken in the early 19th century from the parthenon by the earl of elgin, they're in the british museum. they are magnificent, but your government has insisted for a very long time they must be returned to athens. prime minister borisjohnson has made it plain he has no interest in cooperating with that wish. how big a thorn in the relationship is that going to be? well, we have our position. we acknowledge the british position. we will continue explaining our arguments for the return of those marbles because they

are in a unique position currently to be united with the rest of the parthenon marbles. so we will, of course, continue our, if you like, "campaign" in explaining to the british public and to the british government that this is the right way to go. but let me be clear... we acknowledge your position as well. there are many museums around the world who are reassessing their collections in the light of the realities of colonialism, imperialism, of theft going back many centuries. are you saying to britain today that britain's continued possession of these marbles is immoral, unethical, and deeply wrong? well, i'm saying certainly that it's wrong and they should reconsider it. i wouldn't want to expand this into the moral realm, but certainly they should acknowledge that the rightful place for those marbles is in the new museum

of the acropolis, a museum that's actually fit to have house marbles, together with the rest of the parthenon marbles. minister haris theoharis, i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you. hello there. we saw plenty of showers across the country on tuesday. particularly for the midlands, wales and northern england where we had some thunderstorms as well, producing very heavy hailstones like this weather watcher picture shows, in flintshire in north wales. now, for today, it's going to be another one of sunshine and showers, but they shall resume not be quite as intense

as what we had on tuesday. but our area of low pressure, which has been sitting out to the west of ireland and the uk for the last few days, will slowly start to fill. weakend as it pushes its way eastwards across the country. so we will start off again, good deal of sunshine around, but then the showers will start to get going. a bit more cloud, though, for the northern half of scotland. with some showery bursts of rain here. and this area of rain in the channel is going to bring some wet weather through the channel islands through the day and start to push northwards into central southern england, southwest england at times. again, temperatures pretty much what they have been the last few days, around the mid—teens celsius for those. a bit colder than that across the northern half of scotland. now, that wet weather across the south pushes further north into parts of wales, the midlands. it could be quite wet through wednesday night across the south. elsewhere, the showers will tend to fade. there will be some clear spells, but also quite a bit of cloud across northern scotland. and again, for most of us, it's going to be another frost free one. so for thursday it could start rather cloudy, quite wet for parts of wales, the midlands into southern england.

it will eventually ease away and then it's another one of sunshine and showers, and the odd shower could be on the heavy side again with a rumble of thunder. but a bit more cloud again from the north and east of scotland. temperatures again range from around 1a to 17 degrees, particularly where we have the sunshine, but the cloudy skies across northern scotland, there it will feel cooler than that. the airflow turns quite slack on friday. we are almost in between weather systems. and it could be friday will be a cloudier day across. that will inhibit the showers that develop. but where we get some sunshine across northern ireland, wales, southern england, this is where we could see some of the showers there developing which could be on the heavy side again. it is here where we will see temperatures reaching around 15 or 16 degrees, otherwise a bit cooler across the board where we have the cloud. so that's how was looking for thursday and friday. if i run the sequence on through the weekend and into the start of next week dominated by low pressure. so we are likely to see spells of rain followed by sunshine and showers. and those temperatures remaining around orjust below the seasonal average. notjust for the weekend, but even as we head

throughout much of next week.

this is bbc news. i'm david eades, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. explosion the moment an israeli airstrike destroys an apartment block in gaza city. residents had been warned to leave. as rockets reach a suburb of tel aviv, benjamin netanhayu says the palestinians will pay a heavy price. some 30 people, israelis and palestinians, have been killed. a teenage gunman in russia opens fire at a school, killing at least seven children and two adults. relatives of ten people killed in the ballymurphy area of belfast in 1971 win a fifty—year legal fight to clear their names. we have an