lam i am david lam david eades. the headlines: the new york state attorney's office has told the trump organization that its investigation into its business dealings was now a criminal probe and no longer purely civil in nature. the company led by the former president has been under investigation for over two years by the manhattan district attorney. israel's prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, says palestinian militants have been "set back many years" by nine days of israeli bombardment. in new york, the latest meeting of the un security council has failed to reach consensus. spain has deployed troops after 8,000 migrants entered its north african enclave of ceuta from morocco. spanish officials say the migrants either swam around the border fences thatjut out into the sea or walked across at low tide. spain's prime minister has vowed to restore order.

now on bbc news: hardtalk, with stephen sackur. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. the cycle of violence continues — israel bombards gaza, hamas fires rockets into israel. we know there will eventually be a ceasefire, but then what? what, if anything, will have changed in this seemingly endless conflict? if the main protagonists are israel's prime minister netanyahu and the leaders of hamas, where does that leave the palestinian authority, led by mahmoud abbas? my guest is the palestinian representative in london, husam zomlot. is the pa sliding into political irrelevance? husam zomlot, welcome to hardtalk.

thank you, stephen. as ijust said, the key protagonists in this conflict, which continues in gaza and in israel, the protagonists are prime minister netanyahu and his government and his army and hamas. for you — and let's face it, you really speak for the palestinian authority, you're appointed by mahmoud abbas — for you, is there an overwhelming sense of powerlessness? no, i don't speak on behalf of the palestinian authority, i speak on behalf of the palestine liberation 0rganization. president abbas is the president of the palestine liberation organization and... you were appointed by him, and you worked for him

very closely for years. yes, i was appointed by him, as the president of the palestinian institutions, as the head of our state under occupation... and i guess my point to you... ..like all other ambassadors. now, the point is, this isn't a confrontation between netanyahu and hamas, this is a confrontation that has lasted for 100 years between israel and the people of palestine. this is a confrontation that has been based primarily on one word, negation. and this negation started here, in this city, in this country, the balfour declaration. 67 words that have really promised our land to others without consulting us, and in 67 words it's shown that imperial arrogance, that colonial arrogance, and this negation has lasted until now. so, to reduce the whole story into netanyahu and hamas really does not serve justice for the situation. i'm not reducing the story to... numbertwo, hamas is a newcomer, stephen, to this whole equation. it was established only 20 years ago and the latest events

did not start with gaza, the latest events started in jerusalem, by this concerted, continuous efforts, since israel's establishment, for an ethnic cleansing campaign live on tv. east jerusalem, sheikh jarrah, the attempts to actually evict people from their homes. and by the way, evictions is not even the term, because evictions entails some sort of a landlord, these people own these homes, they have been already targeted in 1948, they are refugees, they made these homes under thejordanian government administration, they have been living there for generations. if i may, context is important, i do not belittle it for one second, but right now, i'm thinking of the civilians living in gaza, your own family comes from gaza. they, day after day, are facing the reality of israeli bombardment. israel bombards because hamas continues — and islamichhad — continue to fire rockets into israel from population centres inside gaza. that is the reality today, so my question to you is, do you feel powerless to stop what is happening to your family members and thousands of others in gaza today? no, i feel the opposite, actually. and you're right, i have family, i spoke to my sister

last night, and she broke my heart, she told me herself and six children and her husband all sleep in one bed, and i asked her why? she said, "because if we die, we want to die together." of course we are affected, and of course we want this to end immediately. israeli aggression is nothing but industrial—scale murder right on tv, and we want this to end. but i don't feel a sense of disempowerment, i feel the opposite, ifeel a sense of empowerment. these scenes that are coming out today from all over palestine follow what is happening. injerusalem, as we speak, in ramallah, in nablus, in hebron. in gaza, of course, the sense of defiance and also palestinian people inside israel, the palestinian citizens of israel, of the i948 areas. every city — in yavne, in haifa, in acre, in lod, as you may have followed. and also in palestinian refugee camps — in lebanon, in syria, injordan —

the sense of unity... we'll absolutely get to the situation in those mixed communities inside israel in the course of this interview, but i am very interested that you say you feel empowered by what is happening in gaza. so, you feel that hamas and islamichhad firing their volleys of rockets, and we've now seen, what, 3,000 of them fired toward israel, you feel that them using population centres inside gaza as the basis for the firing of those rockets, that's empowering, is it? i said i am empowered by my people, and i am empowered by our people. you said, "i'm empowered by what is happening right now." by the defiance and the resilience and the readiness to actually stand up everywhere in palestine. do you think your sister will feel equally empowered by the fact that hamas. ..

i imagine she has no connection to hamas... stephen... ..but hamas is using communities like hers to fire their rockets into israel. is that empowering for her? it is empowering for her and for me and for all of us. it is empowering to say, "enough is enough." it is empowering to take off to the streets by the tens of thousands all over palestine today. it is empowering that we have stood up against israel's ethnic cleansing campaign for all these years. it is empowering to see the youth of palestine right now really, really exposing the reality as it is. if i may, what purpose...? this isn't about hamas, what we... no, but this is important, because this is the reality of what's happening on the ground. what purpose does it serve — other than strengthening mr netanyahu's grip on power in israel — what other purpose does it serve to keep firing those rockets at israeli population centres? i would like to know. you are absolutely right, netanyahu has provoked this, netanyahu has sent his soldiers inside al—aqsa mosque before all these events happened. and most definitely, he did that to provoke what happened so he stays in power, you're right. that's your interpretation,

not mine, all i'm saying is... it is the real interpretation. to dodge criminal charges and to actuallyjust save himself, he is the most manoeuvring politician you can ever encounter, to come back to politics after almost his career was ended. but also, there is another factor, it's also netanyahu, for the last 20—odd years, netanyahu has been at it, spreading hatred, incitement against palestinians. right on facebook, his pages, on twitter, live on tv, and therefore, what is happening is notjust the product of netanyahu's attempt to provoke now, but netanyahu's constant, his ilk, by the way. what you see inside palestinian cities, in the �*48 areas, inside israel, is a result of his incitement against his own citizens. therefore, it is important now not to look at bandages, how do we put a bandage here, a bandage there, how do we deal with the coughing? because you're asking me about the coughing. all what you're seeing is coughing. we need to look at the disease,

stephen, at the illness. this illness has been with us for 100 years, since the balfour declaration. our people have been subjected to constant campaigns of complete denial of our very basic rights. you know, forget about the political, national rights. when a family in the west bank bought solar panels, funded by the eu, to generate electricity, israeli soldiers come and destroy it. when they connect themselves to water pipes, they come and cut it off. it's horrific. schools that are built by uk money are being destroyed in so—called "area c". people have no rights, let alone national rights. and therefore, when they rise up, then the discussion becomes about our resistance, our revolution. you're a diplomat, you have to work in the real world. you also must see that, from the united states, the uk, to many other governments, the prime focus, the reaction to what has been happening, has been a defence of israel's right to defend itself. "unwavering commitment to israel's right to self—defence," was whatjoe biden said. we've also seen that international calls for an urgent ceasefire have not been responded to by either side. as a diplomat, do you not understand that nothing that is happening right now and all the passion that

you are expressing is changing the realities, the power imbalances on the ground? you know, joe biden, the us president, the us altogether, has lost credibility as far as our issue is concerned. they've lost credibility? yes... he's only been in office for, what, 100—and—some days. you've already decided that he's entirely without credibility? so far, the us is the key party that supports israel and the key party that could bring an end to this. and it's been happening and we are calling on the us, actually, to intervene, to take up its responsibility, and we are waiting and we are hoping. there was a very important, productive call between president biden and president abbas. there was a declaration of intent, president biden supports ending the whole situation, visiting the root causes, he supports the two—state solution. he objects to the evictions in eastjerusalem, and he wants it to stop. he is against the illegal settlement expansion.

we accept all that, but we want to see action. the action should not be more weapons exported to israel, as happened only yesterday, that ends up in the dead bodies of our children. the action should be the opposite, the action should be full enforcement of international law. and speaking of international law, and speaking of hamas and all that is happening, i'm not an expert in international law, but i am a very strong believer in it, in the international order and system. stephen, let the international justice system decide. let the icc, the international criminal court, decide on all these actions. we, as the state of palestine, have referred the situation in the occupied territories to the international criminal court, let them decide. guess who blocks our efforts in the icc? it's the us, it's the uk. the prime minister here, prime ministerjohnson, issued a letter to the israeli lobbies here, to the friends of israel, saying that we should not take israel to the icc. you know what, stephen, we're sick and tired of the international complacency. you see, the problem is, that right now, it is not your position within the palestinian political firmament that seems to count, it is hamas�*s. you tell me that you believe hamas�*s rockets are empowering the palestinian state...

i didn't say that, i did not say that. i said the palestinian people's readiness to put up the struggle against the injustices... please address the point i began this interview with, which you've still failed to address. right now, it looks to many people — including to palestinian people — the dynamic response to everything that they've seen and that you've catalogued in this interview that israel is doing tojerusalem, to the occupied territories, in terms of settlement activity — everything that is dynamic about a palestinian response is coming from hamas, it's not coming from mahmoud abbas, the president of the palestinian authority, and his executive. that is your problem, because abbas looks increasingly irrelevant, sidelined. he doesn't matter any more. he's got nothing to say to your people. you're really personalising this, stephen. and i think the president, and with the president all the national institutions, including the palestinian

liberation organisation is in power today, i think these institutions have led the struggle injerusalem up until exactly one week ago. it's... the entire palestinian population from all factions have been on the ground. today, the demonstrations in the west bank are called by fatah, and it's led by fatah leaders and by the plo leaders, all factions. there is a sense of unity here. there is a sense of unity, of purpose and unity of suffering all over palestine. well, with respect, there is no sense of unity whatsoever. what we have seen in recent weeks... and, as you say, context is important. it isn't just about the last ten days. it's about the last few months. we have seen the slow but steady fragmentation and disintegration of fatah and mahmoud abbas�*s position of power in the palestinian authority. two formerly hugely important players inside the pa, allies of fatah, have now formed their own political parties.

mohammed dahlan is one of them, and the other is marwan ba rghouti. both now want to fight for their own political parties. we are seeing the beginnings of the breakdown of fatah authority. seriously, these are individuals, and some of them have done that long ago, many years, and fatah remains intact. i'm not here to speak on behalf of fatah or any political faction. i'm here to speak on behalf of the state of palestine, on behalf of the palestine liberation organization. but speaking of fatah, this is the national movement. it will not be affected by an individual here or there. this isn't about... this is precisely why so many palestinians no longer regard the palestinian authority as credible. well, i don't know... what are you offering them? we know what hamas is offering. they're offering armed resistance. what are you and the palestinian authority offering the palestinian people? let the people of palestine decide who offers what and where.

the palestinian authority is an institution, a national institution that provides education, health, that is really a lifeline support to our people everywhere. this isn't about this. well, it most certainly is about this, because the palestinians have to figure out a way forward. there will be a ceasefire. this round of violence, like the one in 2014, will come to an end. there will be the tragic loss of life. more than 200 palestinians already lost their lives. but it will come to an end. and the palestinians then have to figure out where to go next. you say that your organisation still has credibility. let me just give you a couple of facts. a poll, a recent poll of 1200 adults by the palestinian center for policy and survey research found 84% of them believe the palestinian authority, led by mahmoud abbas, is corrupt. corrupt. well, people have the right to have perceptions. 84%. it's very cyclical. maybe today, after the events

in the west bank and the way that all the national parties have led the demonstrations, if you ask the same kids, it would be different. let's not be cyclical, and let's not look atjust some individuals here and there. let's look at the history of the national movement, the palestine national movement. people know that this movement that was established by yasser arafat has really managed to put palestine squarely on the international arena. people know that our dna is national. there are so many palestinians who want to see a national movement rather than a movement that adopts religious... you mentioned arafat, so let me stop you for a second. just to give you another quote, from nasser al-qudwa, a nephew of yasser arafat who has left fatah. he is absolutely disgusted by what he sees as the corruption, the sclerotic leadership in fatah. he now says there has to be fundamental change after 15 years of fatah rule. he says, "it's going to be sweaty, it might even be bloody, but the bottom line is this — we don't have a choice. things reached a point where we either go down the drain or we stand up as palestinians and say, �*enough is enough.�*

palestine needs leadership, and mahmoud abbas is not it." well, it's a matter for palestinians and the palestinian people to decide, stephen. and it's really strange that people... so, why did mahmoud abbas cancel the elections? people are being killed as we speak. this is the height of the confrontations everywhere. the aggression continues. and then we discuss one individual here and there. because what matters is the future. what matters is what the palestinian people are being offered by their own leaders. of course. and we need elections, and elections must be convened. but mahmoud abbas cancelled the elections which were due to be held on may 22nd. we are proud... hamas wanted those elections. mahmoud abbas said no. why? well, i'm glad you're defending homes in this conversation. it's not a question of defending anybody. i'm trying to get to a point where you discuss with me how palestinians achieve a credible, coherent leadership. stephen, it's the national movement. it's the plo that has been based on the concept, the notion of popular democracy.

without that popular democracy, we would have never been able to do what we have done in the international arena. i wouldn't have an office here and an embassy representing palestinians. no—one cares about democracy more than us. and we do not consider democracyjust to be a way of renewing our political system. no, we look at democracy as a resistance tool. and hear it from me, it is the way, when our people cast their vote, it is also a national vote to rid ourselves of the military occupation, and we understand the significance of the convening of elections. yet there are issues. so, we have been convening elections only in the arab region all these years... you haven't had an election since 2006. we have real issues. we cannot convene elections without gaza, 2 million of our people, including my own family, and divisions happen. hamas took control of the strip. there has been numerous attempts at resolving. and then, when we decided to run the elections last, israel started to play

with its words. they did not want to have elections injerusalem. they arrested anyone, anyone who dared to campaign for elections right in front of cameras, so its public. yet we are to blame. if we convene elections without eastjerusalem, stephen, you know what would happen? we would have just gave a stamp of approval to the ultimate deal, to trump's "deal of the century". we want to make sure... even the militants in hamas said those elections should go ahead. they say there would be ways of ensuring that people in eastjerusalem had their voice. and let me quote to you the highly respected voice of hanan ashrawi, one of the leaders of the negotiating team around the oslo accords. she says there is such a thirst for change. "postponing these elections will lead to a great deal of anger. it could see people, palestinian people, refusing to recognise the legitimacy of their leadership, even declaring civil disobedience." this is where you, the palestinians, are today. you see, you've selectively took one of hanan�*s very credible lines, but hanan is busy, as we speak

now, really focusing on the root cause of all this, the real matter. she's focusing and we are focusing on that this is a moment when israel has got to change its approach towards the palestinians. and we are also focusing on this is a moment when the world has to change its approach towards israel. and once we do that, then we will discuss this individual and that individual. elections are an absolute necessity, but they are the tools, the means towards the main objective, and the main objective of our people is freedom. we want to get rid of this virus. this virus is lethal. it has been spreading for 100 years. we cannot convene normal, natural elections like the rest of the world. we want to... the youth of palestine want their voice to be heard. this is a dignified nation, stephen, and part of our dignity is elections, is democracy, is transparency. but even that we have been deprived of. when israel blocks us from convening elections, then we are to blame

when the aggression is happening right now. so, let's go back to this new approach. israel must understand that its absolute, wholesale denial of palestinian rights everywhere, everywhere, in hebron, in nablus, injenin, injerusalem, inside lod, deep in israel, in gaza, has got to end. the negation will get them nowhere. this wholesale denial of the very basic rights is going to get them nowhere. so, is it time...? this... let me ask a question. and then ask me about elections, because i tell you. i tell you. palestinian people would like to ask you about elections. it's not a question of me asking you, it's the palestinian people want to know, "when are we going to get a chance to choose a new generation of leaders, leaders who are not tied to 0slo, leaders who perhaps have a different take from the generation of mahmoud abbas, perhaps leaders who are less focused on territory, more on civil and human rights?" certainly, supporters of your cause in the united states want to reframe the debate in that way. the question is, can you find a coherent way to reframe the debate?

yes, and i add my voice to the palestinian youth. we do need elections. we need to renew our political system, and elections will happen and must happen. but the question right now, what do i tell my sister in gaza? what do i tell a cancer patient in gaza right now that has been under siege for the last 15 years, that has no electricity, no water and being bombarded and targeted, their residential areas, by israel? i do tell them we should engage now in thinking about elections. we need to stop this aggression, and we need to see what is the international responsibility here. i said earlier that we need to look at a new approach by the world towards israel. this approach has got to end this culture of impunity towards israel, that israel is above the law. this is what we'll give the world. why do you think, then, as a diplomat of some experience, why do you think, and you've talked about

the united states, you've said that you doubt biden�*s credibility, even though he's been in office for, what, 100—and—some days, but... iwant... hang on. why do you think even the united arab front in support of palestinian rights has broken down, where we've seen bahrain, the uae, sudan, morocco all normalise their relations with israel? why do you think this is happening? and what are you going to offer to change the dynamic? well, that was really a very superficial show at the hands of trump and kushner. they were desperate for any breakthrough, and they said, "we havejust achieved peace in the middle east via these agreements." peace in the middle east, when these bombs are falling on the heads of our people now as we speak? what peace in the middle east? it's a joke. that's number one. number two, i hope you have followed the arab streets in the last few days and weeks and you saw the tens of thousands everywhere.

i hope you're following the trending social media in bahrain, in qatar, in saudi arabia, in egypt, everywhere. 0k? go to the streets of america as we speak now in new york, in chicago, in houston, everywhere. so, we are disempowered? no, we are not disempowered. in fact, the only thing that disempowers us is the continuous bias, bias by the us and sometimes by key european countries, including the uk, bias of not enforcing fully international law that we did not draft, that you drafted. the law that was established... you've had a long time to make that case. ijust put it to you at the end of this interview that for all of the passion you've expressed, can you not see that, in many ways, the palestinian people right now feel more hopeless, more despairing than they have ever felt before? no, they feel more dignified than ever they've felt before. they feel more united than ever before. they feel achieving their goals

is closer than ever before. they feel international solidarity like never before. and this time they feel this is like no other time. they want to go all the way. this time they want to deal with the virus that is the occupation, the colonisation and apartheid. we have to stop there, but, husam zomlot, i thank you for coming on hardtalk. thank you. hello. although the weather will be a little quieter across the uk overall today, in contrast to recent days, it's not settling down properly any time soon. the end of the week looking

very stormy indeed, and that will be thanks to this area of low pressure barreling in on thursday and friday. we've kind of got a weak area of low pressure still with us for today. it's going to feed in a band of more organised showers to the south for first thing. this should clear the south—east, though, by the time we get to lunchtime. cloud and some patchy rain drifting south across scotland, and then through the afternoon, livelier, thundery showers develop, particularly across eastern scotland and the eastern side of england. a few elsewhere towards the west, but generally much drier for wales and the south—west and many parts of the midlands than it has been of late. as we move through the overnight period, clear skies and light winds, actually pretty chilly into the small hours of thursday with a risk of a few pockets of ground frost, particularly for central and eastern areas. in the west, the wind will already, though, be starting to pick up, the cloud piling in and this deep area of low pressure starts to make itself felt first thing on thursday.

wind and rain into the west, spreading to all areas through the day. yes, there will be some heavy rain, but potentially not as heavy as some of us have seen out of the recent showers. the big issue is likely to be the wind, particularly gusty in areas adjacent to the irish sea, gusting 45—50mph, strong enough to do some damage and cause some disruption. 0ur temperatures still very unremarkable for the time of year, at least a couple of degrees below where we'd expect to see them. thursday into friday, the area of low pressure continues its progress across the uk, so another windy day on friday. perhaps a little bit drier towards the far south and to the far north, but overall, plenty of showers still set to swirl around that low. and the biggest headache yet again will be the winds. very strong gusts across southern britain on friday. and still our temperatures, well, we're barely scraping into the mid—teens. for the weekend, it looks like things will become somewhat quieter, certainly on saturday, perhaps some dry weather towards the west. yet more showers,

though, on sunday.

this is bbc news. i'm ben boulos with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. new york's attorney general says its investigation of a donald trump company is now a criminal inquiry. with diplomatic efforts yet to yield results, hostilities between israel and palestinians in gaza are continuing with more airstrikes and rockets overnight. lockdown measures are being eased in france. from today, non—essential shops can reopen and restaurants can serve customers outdoors. back with a boom! after being put on hold for a year, the eurovision song contest semi—finals are taking place in rotterdam.