tv HAR Dtalk BBC News May 21, 2021 4:30am-5:01am BST
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there've been celebrations on the streets of gaza with a ceasefire between israel and the palestinian militants appearing to hold. the egypt—brokered deal came after 11 days of conflict in which more than 240 people died, most of them palestinians. president biden welcomed the deal and described it as a "genuine opportunity" for progress in the middle east. he said the us will help israel replenish its missile defences and promised humanitarian and reconstruction aid for gaza. the duke of cambridge has slated the bbc for failing to investigate properly complaints about the way its journalist martin bashir secured an interview with his mother, princess diana. responding to an independent report, prince william said leaders at the bbc had looked the other way. the corporation has apologised. now on bbc news, hardtalk.
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welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. russia's relations with the west have been poor for some time, but now they've reached a new level of hostility. since the imprisonment of russian opposition leader alexei navalny, new sanctions have been imposed by both the us and the eu. the ukraine conflict, allegations of cyber attack and covert operations — the list of unresolved issues is growing. my guest is russia's eu ambassador, vladimir chizhov. is confrontation with the west president putin's strategic choice?
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ambassador vladimir chizhov in brussels, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. ambassador, you've been in post a long time. i think i'm right in saying 16 years. is this the worst state of russia—eu relations that you can remember? well, actually, 15.5, but never mind. long enough. i would say that our relations have seen their ups and downs over these years and definitely before that. now, they are in what i would call an abnormal state. whether we have a possibility to bottom out in the immediate
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future, we'll have to see, but that's, at least, my intention and that of my colleagues. that phrase you use, "bottom out" — that is, i suppose, see some sort of plateau to the relationship. that's only going to happen if russia changes its stance on the status of alexei navalny, because europe has put that front and centre of the objections it has to the way vladimir putin and the kremlin are handling political opposition in russia. are you and your government ready to change tack? well, i would say that will happen when the west, including the european union, changes its perception of what russia is as a country and what its policies are. you have mentioned an individual by the name of navalny. i think it's not only wrong
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to portray him as the leader of the russian opposition, i would say it's, er... ..it�*s an insult towards real representatives of russian genuine opposition to put somebody who has never had any wide support across the country and who has been portrayed or, i would say, pumped up by certain forces within and outside primarily of the country. and moreover, to make our relations with the west, including the european union, hostage to the fate of this particular individual, who is currently serving a short—term prison sentence for certain crimes
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he has committed... ambassador, let me — let me stop you there, because what you've just said is interesting. i mean, you say he's not a significant opposition leader. to be honest with you, that's not really relevant to the reasons why europe is so concerned about the treatment he has received. they basically see, first, the poisoning of him on russian soil and then the imprisonment of him when he returned to russia. they see both as the most grotesque violations of international norms. as angela merkel has said, "thejudgement of the european court of human rights holds that navalny�*s detention is entirely unjustified and arbitrary". that is why they are so concerned. well, you know, i could say that had there not been
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a navalny, somebody else would have been found, but — as a scapegoat or something like that. but i will address the issue from the point of view of substance. you mentioned poisoning, which has yet to be proven because we, as russia, we do not have any shred of evidence that this poisoning had taken place, and that certain so—called military grade — military grade poison had been used. now, you mentioned certain events that followed that particular incident, quite unfortunate incident, with him falling ill on a flight from a city in siberia to moscow. but you have chosen several
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events, neglecting others. the first is that he was provided with first—aid assistance. the plane's pilot chose to land immediately at the nearest airport, where he was taken to hospital. afterwards, after having been treated, he was allowed to leave the country and be flown to germany for further treatment, in spite of having an open — an open court case against him. so i do not see, in this particular case, any serious ground to make, i would say, political conclude — to draw political conclusions from this criminal case.
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crosstalk. ambassador — ambassador, it's your — if i may say so, ambassador, it's yourjob as a diplomat to read the mood in the european union, because that's your job as ambassador, to read the wider mood and relay it back to moscow. are you relaying back to moscow that their official account of events, which you've just given to me pretty much, is entirely incredible to european political leaders, to european public opinion, and that unless moscow addresses the concerns expressed by angela merkel, emmanuel macron and a host of other leaders, this crisis, political crisis, which involves sanctions being imposed on key individuals inside your country, is only going to get deeper? well, i'm sure that in the conversation that my president had with both chancellor merkel and president macron, they were given ample explanations on the —
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as far as the russian view of this situation is concerned. but they don't believe your explanations, ambassador. i am providing my country, my capital, with all the nuances of the individual reactions here in the european union and its member states. well, in that case, are they listening to you? because, as i look at the situation in moscow today, with vladimir putin apparently determined to keep navalny in prison and now going much further and pushing for a definition of navalny�*s anti—corruption foundation and his political movement as extremists, akin to terrorists, with all of the members of navalny�*s movement therefore facing the possibility of long—term imprisonment, putin doesn't appear to be listening to the european voice at all.
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well, you'll have to ask my president whether he listens to those voices. i'm sure he has ample information on the case. and, you know, it's again — you are overestimating the role of this particular criminal case and its possible political implications. i really doubt that the kremlin is spending all that time on dealing with the navalny case. there are much more important things to do and to discuss with our western partners, including the european union. but that's my very point, ambassador — the navalny case clearly is souring the entire relationship right now.
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i mean, you're much more aware than me of the sanctions imposed in march by the european union as a direct response to the navalny situation, and your own government's counter—response, whereby eight named individuals within the european institutions were given travel bans, including the president of the european parliament and one vice president of the commission. now, i come back to this point — you represent russia in the european union. what you are seeing is that the entire relationship is being poisoned. i will agree with that estimate. yes, it is being poisoned by certain political forces in the european union. and, you know, over all these years, we have not closed any
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venue, any break of cooperation with the european union or shut down any format of partnership. all that freezing exercise has been committed by the european union. and it didn't start with navalny, it didn't start with the ukrainian crisis, it started early. —— it started earlier. butjust explain to me — maybe you've done it already to european political leaders — explain to me why it is justified to label alexei navalny�*s anti—corruption foundation as, quote, unquote, "extremist". well, that's a definition according to law and you don't expect me, not being a lawyer, to present you with all the legal details of that determination. this is a court decision. are you satisfied, when you look at what's happening in russia today, that russia is acting
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in the best interests of its own diplomatic position in the world? i am satisfied with what russia is doing today. perhaps we could do better in certain areas on certain issues but i am totally dissatisfied with what my partners here, my clients in brussels, are doing. so, when, for example, the overwhelming majority of meps in the european parliament adopt a call for the immediate and unconditional release of navalny, they're whistling in the wind, are they? they're wasting their time? well, they are presenting inadequate knowledge of what division of powers between the various elements of power are — i mean between thejudicial and the parliamentary and the executive.
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what do you think is going on in russia today? do you think your president, the man you work for, is becoming increasingly fearful of his own population? is that why he's taking the repressive measures that we see today? certainly not, and i do not regard the measures being taken today as repressive. so you don't regard the description and illegal labelling of an anti—corruption foundation as extremist akin to a terrorist organisation — you don't think that is in any way unreasonable? well, actually, there is a certain difference between a definition of extremists and terrorists. these are two separate articles of the criminal code. well, as i understand it, ambassador, if this measure is indeed enacted, then members of navalny�*s anti—corruption foundation could face up to ten years in prison. well, i wouldn't count
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the number of years they may be facing but certainly, their activities are in the focus of the russian judicial system. let me just quote to you one russia political expert, kirill rogov, who recently wrote, "we're seeing a rapid resurrection of neo—stalinism and its ideology of state terror in russia, directed both against its own citizens and the outside world". again, i put it to you as a man who is paid to read the mood, do you not see that not only is that a feeling outside the country, increasingly, it seems young russians in particular are feeling that inside your country? well, definitely not. i don't know who this individual is that you have been quoting, but certainly i'm quite sure he does not rightfully describe the actual situation
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in the russian society. let's talk about ukraine, because, of course, you spend a lot of your time talking to european counterparts about the continued conflict in ukraine. last month, russia amassed more than 100,000 military personnel close to the ukrainian border. it was a move widely condemned in europe and the united states. it was seen as an effort to intimidate, to send a signal that russia might be prepared to invade through the ukrainian border. can you explain to me, what was the motivation? well, i'm sure that those definitions that you have been quoting were deliberately used to... ..to describe the situation in the wrong way, because i'm sure that intelligence services
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of western countries must have known better than to make such claims on what was really happening. actually, what we are talking about was an annual military exercise which did not cover only areas close to the ukrainian border, but many other regions of russia. actually, all across the country, the armed forces were engaged in a major exercise, which is a regular... ..thing that takes place every spring. so, i do not see any particular grounds for anybody to be particularly worried. why? well, i'll tell you who is worried. the president of ukraine, mr zelensky, is worried.
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i interviewed him not so long ago, and he discussed with me the degree to which he was disappointed that for all the high hopes of some sort of relationship, a warmer relationship with mr putin, when he first came to power, mr zelensky sees no evidence of any possibility right now of making good on the minsk peace accords, of making progress toward a lasting peace in ukraine. from your point of view, do you think those minsk accords are basically dead in the water? no, they still remain the only agreed basis for any progress towards settling the ukrainian crisis. in the words of president zelensky, well, he should have addressed them to himself, because he is the one who is procrastinating on delivering on ukraine's commitments on the basis of the minsk agreements.
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he is on record saying that he doesn't like the minsk agreements and he is prepared to tolerate them only because they are a tool of extending sanctions, western sanctions against russia, quote, unquote, practically. so, he should be worried about other things. he should be worried about how his country is failing... ..in economic terms, how it is a total failure in addressing the pandemic, lagging behind practically all other european countries in terms of vaccination and deliberately, for political... well, he's not here, but i suspect he would say you take care of your business and he'll take care of his. but let's talk about a different raft of concerns. let me finish with one, because ukraine has been saying that they would refuse any russian vaccine which was offered
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them free of charge. let's turn to a different area of concern that european states have with russia. that is covert operations, intelligence operations run by russia on european soil. the czech republic recently condemned russia for running an operation in 2014 which they say saw russian agents blow up an explosives factory, killing two people. and as a result, notjust the czech republic but other eu member states took actions against russia, expelling diplomats. it included the baltic states. bulgaria has also expelled a russian diplomat. your formerly relatively warm relations with a number of countries in eastern europe have become very, very chilly indeed. and again, as a diplomat, are you worried about that?
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of course i'm worried, but as far as this czech incident is concerned, you know, i always thought you are a serious analyst. you don't really believe that story. that's a fairy tale that the czechs have produced, misusing eu solidarity, i would say, for somebody�*s political goals and, you know, being overwhelmed by confusion, actually contradicting themselves a number of times. at one point they have one version, then three versions, then two versions. and you mentioned yourself when those explosions took place. it was seven years ago. and until now, after seven years, there is not — to say nothing of a court case — the police investigation has not been concluded. but the point is, ambassador, that there is in europe a feeling that russia does
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run covert operations, notjust these physical ones we've talked about. we could also talk about the skripal case in the united kingdom, but also cyberattacks going all the way back to estonia 2007, right through to germany and the cyberattack on the bundestag in 2015. there is a conviction in europe russia is behind an awful lot of cyberwarfare aimed inside the european union. well, there are different schools of thought across europe, i must assure you. but all these events or non—events that you mentioned, there is not a single piece of evidence confirming the case that russia was behind any of them. well, there is evidence. it's just you don't accept it, just as you don't accept the evidence in the skripal case. but there is evidence.
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well, the skripal case, there was a case when skripal was recruited by british intelligence and became a turncoat, and then he was sentenced in russia. and afterwards he was pardoned and released and allowed to go and live in britain. now thatjoe biden is in the white house, and not donald trump, mr biden, of course, memorably recently called vladimir putin a killer. and the americans have said that they will simply no longer roll over in the face of russia's aggression. we're in a different diplomatic world, aren't we, now? the european union sees a much tougher stand from joe biden, and that spells bad news for russia on the diplomatic front. well, i would say that all the problems that had been in our relations with
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the united states before the changeover of the administration are still there, except one — the start iii treaty has been extended for five years, and that's a positive development. i'm not going to dwell on what will happen in russia—us relations in the immediate future. well, i want you to dwell on just one thing before we end, because it's rather important, ambassador, and you're very plugged in. is there going to be a summit next month betweenjoe biden and vladimir putin? there's some talk it might be in switzerland. and if so, what could it achieve? i will certainly know more tomorrow morning, because minister lavrov is meeting secretary blinken in reykjavik today, in the afternoon, perhaps as we speak. they might produce some mutual understanding on a number of issues, including the issue of a possible summit. what would it achieve?
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we'll see. well, with those two words, we must end this interview, ambassador chizhov. i thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you. goodbye. hello again. thursday brought us an unusually deep area of low pressure for the time of year. it brought some very powerful—looking seas to the coastline of newquay in cornwall — there, a look at the pretty impressive waves battering the coastline here — and the strongest winds were around the coasts of south west england and wales. the strongest gusts were well into the 60s to low 70s
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of miles an hour, peaking with a gust of 73 mph in pembrey sands in south wales. and, of course, it was pretty wet as well. the wettest weather is across this central swathe of the uk. 36mm for north wales. but in sharp contrast to that, it was mainly dry across north west scotland and there was barely a drop of rain across the south east. the rain will continue to be variable on into friday, thanks to ourfamiliar slow—moving friend, our area of low pressure here. so we've got rain at the moment. the rain's getting heavier, the winds a bit stronger across eastern scotland but for many of us, it will stay pretty blustery over the next few hours with those strong gale force gusts of wind pummelling the coasts and the hills. more rain to come as well. but it's not too cold as we head into friday morning. now, the wettest weather through the day will be across wales, northern england, eastern scotland. the rain not amounting to much for north west scotland. it will ease off in northern ireland and there probably won't be that much in the south east, but the winds will be very strong, gusting to 50—60 mph around those english channel coasts,
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perhaps 70 mph gusts somewhere like the needles, the west coast of the isle of wight, and those temperatures disappointing. just 13 in london. well, it should be about 19 at this time of year. saturday, brighter, but there'll be some showers around, some of them heavy and thundery. sunday sees a return of more wet weather pushing in from the west. it will also be quite windy. so, saturday's weather first of all. might be some rain there or thereabouts in the south, certainly quite a few showers across eastern areas as we start the day. the best of any brighter weather probably developing across northern and western areas of the uk as we go through the afternoon. and those temperatures still pretty disappointing — 12 in glasgow, should be about 16 at this time of year. and sunday, bright start with some sunshine. this band of rain is going to move in from the west with strengthening winds followed by showers in northern ireland later in the day. well, some of those could be pretty heavy as well. and those temperatures, 11—12 degrees celsius — really poor for this stage of may. and even into next week, there'll be showers around.
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this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. fireworks replace rockets in the skies above gaza, after israel and the palestinian militants agree to a ceasefire to end 11 days of deadly violence. five hours in, the egyptian—brokered truce appears to be holding. this is the scene live as dawn breaks in gaza city. prince william attacks the bbc after an inquiry heavily criticises the broadcaster over its interview with princess diana. it brings indescribable sadness to know that the bbc�*s failures contributed significantly to herfear, paranoia and isolation that i remember from those final years with her.
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