hello, i'm martine croxall. welcome to dateline london. my first time hosting the programme, which is very exciting! hold on to your hats. this week, we discuss the successes and failures of the worldwide vaccination programmes against covid—19, and the conflict between israel and hamas. our guests are the french journalist agnes poirier of the magazine, l'express, the american journalist and broadcasterjef mcallister. and with me, suitably distanced still in the studio, the bbc�*s science editor, david shukman. we're welcoming you, david, yourfirst time back in the building for over a year. very strange feeling but very nice. and i hear your mum is an avid dateline viewer, so she will be especially pleased to see you here for the first time! she is a huge fan so i cannot

make any mistakes. i can't make any mistakes. she will be so glad that you are here with me on the programme. in the uk and the us, the vaccination programmes against the pandemic has been hugely successful, but what about elsewhere? have policymakers really listened to the scientists? vaccinations for some will be the key to being able to go travelling again. fewer planes flying over the last year did some environmental good, but, more flights are scheduled, what further damage are we going to be doing to our climate? this is another area where scientists and policymakers may not be on the same page. will this crisis be discussed at the upcoming g7 summit being held in the uk? and are there any signs that we are prepared to suffer inconveniences, or sacrifices, if you like, to avoid a global warming catastrophe? agnes, let me start with you. how well do you think european policymakers have followed the science when it comes to vaccinations? well, it's a balancing act if you're a head of state or government. of course, they've been listening to science.

they must be feeling as if that is all they have been doing for 18 months. but there is science and there's politics. and you have to make, in the end, political decisions. and actually, it's interesting to look at the different countries in europe, because they've gone about their lockdowns in very different ways. with sometimes very good results, but different methods. but i'm very happy to report to dateline that the vaccine roll—out in continental europe, in france, italy, germany and spain, is doing extremely well. after of course the catastrophic first two weeks, first two months, i would say, and yesterday, the french president announced that anyone from the age of 18 was now able to get vaccinated in france. and surprise, surprise — i'm sure you remember the french were leading

in anti—vaccine feeling in the western world, but it's not the case any more. perhaps because at first they were denied their vaccine, and as you know, they are — we are quite contrarian and as soon as there was no vaccine for them, they wanted it. now the latest poll yesterday showed that 70% of french people want to get a vaccination. it was only 40% last summer. so, good news all around. i wouldn't dream of calling the french contrarian, but you may! jef, i was reading today about the rather different infection rates between the different states of america. i think north dakota's still got pretty high infection rates, whereas vermont, a really tiny state in comparison, has much lower rates. how much of this is down

to vaccination uptake? some of it is - vaccination uptake. some of it is the residue - of the different mask—wearing policies and general public - health awareness and interest of the state governments, which were, especially- in the trump administration, fundamentally in charge - of what happened. all the states now, at least according to the best - knowledge, can get essentially all the vaccines they want. - so, it's not any longer a - question of supply and demand, or supply — it is - a question of demand. there are regional- differences, even political difference, in uptake. there is an anti—vax _ stronghold among republicans. there was a period when 50% of republican men said - they would not get a vaccine. we're now down to 20% of republicans saying. they will not get a vaccine, - as opposed to 29% a month ago. again, i think as more and more

|people's neighbours are getting| it, and some states- are offering lottery prizes of $1 million to people who get vaccinated. . the public enthusiasm is building. _ i think it will even outi over time, and really, what is remarkable is how good these vaccines are. _ unlike flu vaccines - and other sorts of vaccines, the possibility of reinfection, the possibility of going - to the hospital or death, i it's almost a magic bullet. i think the success - of the science is leading people to understand that this is a very good thing to do. - david, there were some environmental benefits certainly, to the lockdown. far fewer flights going round the world, but how much of that are we going to hold onto once the planes take off? the new figures that have come from china show that their emissions have shot back right up again, and this comes at a time

when the science has never been clearer, that by 2030 — to have the best chance of avoiding the worst effects of global warming — emissions globally need to come down by nearly half in the next nine years. well, they've been going in the wrong direction. i think where the ground has shifted dramatically, just in the last, really, couple of months is that suddenly, you've got one big economy after another declaring they will try to cut their own emissions by roughly half by 2030. joe biden with the states, the eu, japan and korea, likewise, the uk has set a target of 78% cut by 2035. this changes the calculations about global warming, but it does mean that all these governments are now under massive pressure to deliver these pledges. it's one thing to declare a promise, another to get into shape and position the policies that get you there. and i think the big difference

now is that suddenly, you have a timeframe which makes it very difficult for the current crop of politicians to wriggle out of. if you've got a target for 2050, you won't be in power by the time that comes around. if you've got a target of 2030, well, whatever happens right now could rebound on you. is this going to be then that we all start to change our habits because we're on that very edge of the cliff edge? or is it going to have to be legislated to make us change? i think it'll be a mix of everything. i mean, some of the changes that have reduced emissions already have happened without us noticing. so, all our electric appliances, our fridges for example, use far less power than they used to ten years ago. electricity demand has fallen as a result of that. without really realising, we put on the light switch, our power in the uk is more and more renewable, rather than coming from coal. but the harder things remain to be tackled — how we heat our homes,

how we get around. these are going to be much tougher to sort out. agnes, how willing are people in france, generally, if you can be that general, to embrace the idea that life is going to have to change, our choices are going to have to be different in future? well, it takes two to tango. basically, i don't know if you're aware, but a month ago, there was this momentous decision that french mps passed as law. it is now a law. france has banned domestic flights on short routes that can be travelled by train in under three hours, but that's momentous. it's the first time any major economy has actually prohibited domestic flights or short routes, if you like, and that could have an impact straightaway. it represents about 15% of all french domestic flights. i was looking at figures in the uk.

every year, there are half a million flights between london and manchester when actually, it only takes two hours by train. i think what we've learned as citizens but also as consumers during the pandemic is that mass tourism and mass airtravelling, perhaps we've reached our limits. and we have to be ready to take the train. in europe, it's so enjoyable anyway. and at least in countries like france or in italy, it's heavily subsidised, it doesn't cost much, and that's the way we used to do it _ why not do it on short routes? luxembourg introduced free public travel last year for everybody, which is something almost unimaginable to us here. jef, we knowjoe biden has a very different view of climate change, global warming from mr trump,

from donald trump, but how easy is it going to be getting stuff through congress? well, nothing is easy for him. he's got a split congress and i he's going to have to be lucky. and if he tried to, for instance, - impose a carbon tax, we would see a lot of difficulty. - i think, though, the - interesting thing is how much the ground is changing - in renewables in particular. the technology is really, really advancing quickly. j biden this week and drove an electric ford f150 - pick—up truck. this is not a car for harvardl professors who eat granola. this is a pick—up truck for red| state people who herd cattle, and he said "this sucker moves fast1'— it's actually going to be - perhaps the first mass—market electric vehicle that's - going to be a success in places outside the coasts. and it's cheap, relatively, - and this is the way that energy

efficiency is going to happen. people don't mind more efficient buildings- and better cars, and we can't change it from just not ridingj on aeroplanes. the international energy- association, the group set up after 0pec, for consuming states, has a path - to energy by 2050, - a path to carbon neutrality. they say that only 4% - of the reduction has to come from lifestyle changes from us. the rest of it can come - from big structural changes that, with intelligentl governments, should be actually quite _ straightforward to implement. i know the politics are hard. perhaps especially in the us. but i do think it's a period - of optimism for climate change. how lovely to have some optimism at this point. let's turn our attention then to the middle east and the ceasefire in

the gaza strip after 11 days of violence, with both sides claiming victory. but israel clearly doesn't think it has diminished hamas enough, and hamas still has rockets aimed at israeli targets. there is also the major bombing this time of violence betweenjews and arabs, something not seen in the region for many years. the truce faced an early test on friday when fresh clashes broke out at the al—aqsa mosque compound in occupied eastjerusalem. david, the casualties on each side are starkly different. at least 2113 people killed in gaza. in israel, 12 people killed, according to their medical service. likewise, their military capabilities and where they get them from. asjeremy bowen has been saying, during his coverage of this conflict, it's an asymmetric war. you have a wealthy side on one side and an impoverished force on the other. one of the things that goes towards leveling that imbalance is rockets. we've seen that in the second world war

and the first gulf war. if one side can fire rockets from mobile launchers that are hard to detect until the launch happens, there can be an advantage. and i think right now, just purely in military terms, the hamas commanders will be trying to make an assessment that of all the rockets they launched, 90% were intercepted by the israeli iron dome system, but 10% did cause fatalities and injuries. they'll be trying to work out how many remaining rockets they have, how quickly they can get back into the business of making more. and of course on the israeli military�*s side, they're going to be doing those assessments as well to try to work out how much of a threat hamas remains with its rockets. and interestingly, isaw a report earlier today that the mayors of two of the israeli towns hit hardest by hamas rockets object to the cease—fire, because they say the threat remains. sderot and ashkelon. indeed. for them, they're very

alive to the option that the hamas commanders have of potentially continuing this. and of course, we understand that iran supplies hamas. they build in tunnels, and alsojoe biden has offered to replenish what israel has used during this recent conflict. yes, to bolster the standard of israeli protection, and then within gaza, from what we understand from what's been reported, it seems that the rockets are assembled within gaza, probably with components smuggled in, almost certainly with iranian guidance and help. the extent to which the attacks on the tunnels have disrupted that process, we'll have to wait and see. there were clashes injerusalem and other parts of israel as well. you must remember that 20% of the population of israel are arab—israelis. these clashes, though, are civilian against civilian, not hamas against the state of israel. a very different dynamic.

yes, and that's quite new. i think in the last 11 days, there's been some reasons to be optimistic, but also many more to be pessimistic about the future. the slight ray of hope is that diplomacy's back. but we can also see joe biden is quite stuck in his approach to the crisis. he was quite hesitant, and there are many voices in the democratic party who want him to be much tougher with israel. the un could come back on the world stage and be much more dynamic and participate much more than it did in the last four years of trump. and indeed, france pushed for a resolution under the un security council. france and germany were behind egypt and jordan and the ceasefire. of course, europe

is very concerned. every time there is tension in the middle east, we can see pro—palestinian protests in the streets of paris, berlin and london turning ugly. the interior minister in france had to ban protests, which took place anyway. we saw some very anti—semitic slogans, but also attacks. and this is becoming more and more recurrent in europe, and that's a great concern. now, the problem is the two—state solution is dead. i think that's the next step for world diplomacy. what next? something that struck me which is very sad is that only a couple weeks ago, three weeks ago, there were talks of the new government in israel with, for the first time, the participation of an independent arab party. now, this is also dead in the water. netanyahu is here to stay.

there have been four elections in the last two years. there might be another one. israeli democracy is in tatters. what is the next solution? the two—state solution is a thing of the past. we know as well, jef, thatjoe biden has a very different approach to foreign policy from donald trump. but the us vetoed the french cease—fire proposal, while at the same time putting forward one of his own. can you explain that? yeah, i think this is - the traditional role of the us in middle east policy—making, or israeli—palestinian fighting _ this actually reminding me of times on the aeroplane i with the previous secretaries of state going to tel- aviv and jerusalem.

what biden's people are saying about this is he has a long - relationship with netanyahu. he has said proudly he once - sent netanyahu an autographed picture with "dear bb, i don't agree with a damn thing youl say, but i love you." he thought not ratcheting up the pressure publicly- on netanyahu, not asjohn kerry did during the last— israeli foray into gaza, i going in and failing to get a cease—fire, - he thought doing that doing it quietly— behind—the—scenes might work. netanyahu has fences to mend. he was a subcontractorj of the republican party under both the 0bama - and the trump administration. there was some leverage biden had to play against netanyahu. |

whether they had any i real movement possible, the two—state solution seems - dead, they do seem to be making progress towards an iran deal, which will require israel not. to blow it up. maybe there's some room - for things to expand after this little bit of peacemaking. i'm not optimistic in. this case, but you have to start somewhere. just quickly, how likely is it do you both think that there will be more nations around the world that are recognising palestine? the momentum has been with the israelis making i peace with the gulf states rather than the other way around~ _ i don't think the us will be i as against it as it used to be. i think the landscape - is changing there in congress and in public opinion, i so maybe there's more

room without irritating i the americans to do so. it's inflammatory to the israelis as well, isn't it, agnes? do you think it's more likely that palestine will get more recognition? well, there's a problem with discriminating against palestinians and them being second—rate citizens, so this will have to be addressed. but of course, israel doesn't listen to europe, it listens only to washington. so the ball is in biden's court. before we go, i would like to ask each of you if there's one subject we all ought to be talking about but are not? jef, first. this is where you get to stretch your legs and go off—piste. it's like a jam session for news. this is not exactly not talked about. | ijust want to register my fury at bitcoin, i which i think is a scam, a ponzi _

scheme where if it goes up or down 30% a day, i the mining of bitcoin is using half the electrical. output of great britain every day to produce these i coins that have no value for anybody except terrorists and drug dealers. _ regular currencies i are perfectly effective to do what you need. there's my screed for the day. they're not underpinned by something like gold. but i was talking to a protection officer the other day about how you can buy an environmentally—friendly bitcoin. it is alleged you can! it all depends on where the power is generated. that's all it comes down to. you have to do your homework in order to be environmentally friendly. i don't understand it, do you, agnes? sorry? bitcoin, do you understand it

well enough to invest? i know nothing about bitcoin, so i would not approach... i wouldn't come close to bitcoin. stick to the euro. what's the story that you'd like to draw our attention to? it's like bitcoin, we talked about it a bit, but it was such a joy to go back to a museum and an art gallery this weekend. it was the same in france as in britain, all over europe. they are reopening. and we learn... 0ne lockdown after another, we learn things. during the first lockdown in france, book shops, for example, were not deemed essential, but a few months later, a decree was passed where they were indeed essential. the second lockdown was so much better because book shops, wine shops, chocolate shops and florists were deemed essential, and that changed. for the next lockdown, if or when there is one,

i would urge governments in europe to open museums, because they are nourishment. i think it would do a lot of good for the mental health of our nations. you are surrounded by beauty, you don't have to buy stuff and they are big places. you can open the windows and be socially distanced, and it's essential to me. so i've been very happy this week because i've returned to big museums in london. just very briefly, what did you miss, jef? in lockdown? yeah. people, mostly. i agree about museums and culture. _ it gets forgotten too easily, and it is fantastic to see - the blood getting back into circulation - of cultural life. i'm sure you missed coming

into broadcasting house, david! of course, the camaraderie, the banter. i think i've been more efficient working at home. you can get on with things, but i do miss the social contact. if i could just say, i've got a jef—style rant something we should do more on — plastic waste. we've forgotten about it with covid and climate change, but the plastic waste problem is getting worse, not better. and i'm withjef, having a little fume about that. i'm sure that is partly because we have been using single—use plastics more and masks that you find everywhere. yes, you find them everywhere. there's a website that gathers pictures of discarded masks. they've been found on coral reefs on bali, but that's just part of the problem. the bigger problem is the whole system of retail and of production and of the petrochemical industries and the way we throw—away culture. that's been talked about, and david attenborough has sounded off about this for some time.

there have been some changes, but i think we've perhaps taken our eye off the ball a little bit. that's something i think we need more focus on. rant over. not very ranty at all! wise words. i know this is probably unorthodox, but i would like to tell you all about a story i think deserves far more attention. it's about the town of northampton. northampton and peterborough, in the east of england. they have settled a long—standing disagreement over the name of a river's pronunciation. n-e-n-e. if you live in northampton, they say the river "nen". in peterborough, it's the river "neen". how did they spell this? via a game of croquet. northampton won. isn't that a civilised way? until it escalates!

then its mallets at dawn! that brings us to the end of dateline london for this week. thank you to our guests, agnes and jef, and to our science editor david shukman. thank you for watching and do join shaun ley next week. same time, same place. i survived it! goodbye. bit of a lull in the weather at the moment. the skies are clear in the morning's not looking bad at all across most of the uk. don't hold your breath, it's not going to last for very long. because we are expecting rain and gales through the afternoon, particularly across western areas of the uk. and if we have a look at the satellite picture you can see this swirl across the atlantic, another big low pressure and the weather front�*s

already approaching ireland. you can see the low pressure, rather autumnal looking and that will be sweeping across us over the next couple of days. it's pushed by a strong jet stream, you can see here at 30,000 feet. the forecast for the early hours shows the rain pushing into ireland but many parts of the uk are clear and calm. in fact we are expecting a touch of frost in the glens of scotland and even cities further south than birmingham, about three degrees in the morning. the forecast, from the morning onwards that weather front sweeps into western part of the uk, gale force winds develop around western coasts and for a time, an hour or two, the rain really could be quite heavy, particularly around south—western england, wales and also south west of scotland. notice that at this stage,

from norwich all the way to aberdeen the weather is dry and the rain may not reach you until a lot later on in the day and probably during the evening hours. then out towards the west, the weather should calm down. here's monday's weather map, a low pressure sitting on top of the uk and typically, when we're in the centre of the low pressure, we get big shower clouds, so it's a day of storm clouds building, perhaps thunder and lightning across some parts of wales and england. perhaps a little bit of sunshine the across the north of england. however, northern and eastern scotland likely to be quite wet on monday as this weather front wraps around into the centre of this low pressure. here's tuesday's weather forecast — the low pressure is moving towards the east butjust in the wake of it, further showers are expected from scotland and also along the eastern side of the country. 0ut towards the west, the weather should start to improve. all in all, the rest of the weekend and into next week, looking fairly unsettled. but here's the good news — as we head towards the end of the week ahead, there are signs that the weather finally will be settling down. something to look forward to.

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