the belarussian journalist arrested in minsk following the forced diversion of his flight has appeared in a video statement confessing that he provoked mass protests. it appears to have been made under duress. eu leaders have now banned belarussian airlines from its airspace and are drawing up targeted sanctions. the us secretary of state, antony blinken, is on his way to the middle east for talks following the fighting between israel and palestinian militants. state department officials say his priority will be to build on the ceasefire. the us is preparing to mark the first anniversary of the murder of george floyd, which prompted global demonstrations against police brutality. relatives and supporters of mr floyd have held a rally that started outside the county building where former officer derek chauvin was convicted. now on bbc news, hardtalk.

welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. these are tough times in south africa. officially, covid has taken more than 55,000 lives. researchers reckon the real figure is much higher and right now there are fears of a third wave of infection. but many minds in the ruling party are consumed not by this national health and economic crisis, but by anc infighting and mudslinging over corruption and accountability. my guest is finance minister tito mboweni. has the anc lost the plot?

tito mboweni, in limpopo province, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much for having me here. i have been here before on hardtalk, but those days i was at the studios in london. this time i am speaking to you from limpopo province. thank you very much indeed. well, it is a pleasure to have you on the programme, minister. last time you were with us on hardtalk, of course, none of us had heard of covid—19. now your country is still in the grip of a national crisis thanks to the pandemic. how damaging, in that context, is it that the ruling anc is so riven with division about issues of corruption, particularly concerning your

former presidentjacob zuma? the most important thing for us in south africa at the moment is to make sure that the entire population understands the interventions that were put in place to fight against the pandemic. basic non—pharmaceutical interventions and then obviously the roll—out of the vaccine now, but the basic non—pharmaceutical interventions are important. that is the first thing. the second thing, at the political level, you asked me the question about the fight against corruption. the african national congress, the governing party, is very resolute in its determination to fight against corruption irrespective of whence it comes. and therefore, whoever is involved in corruption must know that the law will after them and that

is what we are doing, irrespective of who they are. well, let's. .. what office they once held doesn't matter. we all must face the wrath of the law. that's a very important opening statement you have made. irrespective of who they are, you say. so let us turn right now to the case of jacob zuma. he is facing court trial on charges of corruption, which involve, what, $2.5 billion. now, mr zuma is still a member of anc. so a very basic question — is it now time that he was suspended or maybe even expelled from your party? i think you have to ask that question from the official spokespersons of the party, but what i know is that there is a basic political decision within the party that, if you are charged for fraud or corruption before a court

of law, you must step aside from your official position. now, that position, for example, has confronted the secretary general of the anc, and, yes, he had to step aside. and that is a basic fundamental framework under which we operate. we have to be very strict and very direct about things like this. many post—liberation parties fall into difficulties because they fail to maintain the basic principles of the revolution, if i may put it that way. so you... hang on, hang on. let's try and keep this really concise. what you've just said suggests to me that you thinkjacob zuma should be suspended right now. we know that he recently attended a national executive committee meeting of the anc. he is still very much operational inside your party. so why isn't your party acting?

i think you need to ask that question from the deputy secretary general of the anc and not from the minister of finance. and let me ask you this, how real is the possibility of what, in essence, would be a civil war inside your party? you refer to the now suspended secretary general of the anc, who faces his own very serious corruption charges. he said last week when the trial of jacob zuma was adjourned, he said, "mr zuma must be supported at all times — "as anc leaders, that is how we were brought up." there were hundreds of demonstrators outside the court at the time of the adjournment who said that they would do anything necessary to defend jacob zuma. your party could tear itself apart. i am very confident that the african national congress will stay together, united. those good people, those men and women of

the african national congress, will stay together. over the years, the african national congress has faced many difficulties from 1955, �*59, 1969 and so on. i'm a member of the national executive committee of the anc and i am quite convinced that the majority of members of the national executive committee will keep the party together. and those who want to disobey the decisions of the national executive committee will find themselves out of of the door by their own volition and by their own deeds. just another thought about the anc. your own fellow countrymen and women, they want to know that your government is truly focused on the crisis you are facing, but they know that jacob zuma and ace magashule are going to be facing trial and they know that both men deny all of the very serious charges.

they know this could run on for a long time. i just wonder whether you accept the words of william gumede, the chairman of a big ngo in your country — democracy works — who says this has become a battle for the soul of the anc, particularly the fate of zuma. do you, as a senior member of your party, agree with that? i have known william gumede for a long time and he has been saying this for the past 20 years, it is not a new expression he has used. so i don't think there is any vacuum for the soul of the anc. the anc�*s soul is intact. when we look at the allegations, particularly those around mr zuma, they involve tens of billions of dollars going into corrupt deals, what has been called generally �*state capture�*, the scale of the corruption. now, cyril ramaphosa,

your boss, your president, says the governing party could and should have done more to prevent corruption in years gone by. is that enough or do you — senior people like you and him — need to be much more frank with the public about your own failings to deliver clean governance? we are determined to make sure that the rule of law in the republic of south africa holds the ground. so anybody who faces fraud and corruption charges must face the law. they must go to court, explain their case, respond to the prosecution's case and then the judge must determine whether they are guilty or not. south africa is a law governed society and anybody who is accused of any wrongdoing must appear before

the court, whether it is the minister of finance or the president of the republic, it doesn't matter — or whether you're a retired military general or whatever the case might be. if you are accused and the prosecutorial authorities have a case against you, you must go to court and answer irrespective of who you are. so on a personal basis, you know him very well, how disappointed are you with jacob zuma, not least right now, his determination to fight all of this and to use any method he can, frankly, to try to avoid going to court and having this trial take place? because his defence team got it adjourned last week. well, i worked with mr zuma for many years.

in fact, as early as 1982 thereabouts, so i have known him for many years — from mozambique, and london, from lusaka, and i think that all he needs to do is subject himself to the court processes and prove his innocence there. and i think that, as somebody who has been in a struggle for so many years, i'm sure he is interested in the protection of our constitutional democracy, the rule of law and that he will subject himself to a fair process of the law. that is very important. and also, if he does that, it becomes an example of how leadership conducts itself when confronted with such difficult matters. this is important forfuture generations as well, so that the future generations

know that all of us abide by the law and that none of us is above the law. you yourself have been heavily criticised by people inside the anc and also the affiliated trade union movement, cosatu, because of the way you have spoken out on financial governance issues, not so much in south africa, but there were infamous tweets you made about the relationship between the president of zambia and the chief of his central bank. and as a result of those comments you made, cosatu in particular called you a national liability — they seem to think you should be removed from office. do you have a personal problem now with some of the key figures in your own ruling party and the trade union movement? not at all.

i have very close working relationships with members of the national executive committee of the anc, the general secretary of cosatu and also the other leaders of cosatu, the leaders of the south african communist party. we have differences from time to time, and i think one thing that is very unique about me, if i mightjust say something about myself, i call a spade a spade and not a big spoon. and if you call a spade a spade, you are going to get into trouble from time to time. but i like and enjoy getting into trouble. in the spirit... minister, in the spirit of calling a spade a spade, i hope perhaps you will be very frank with me about why your government has failed to really effectively find ways of controlling covid—19, because three of your key provinces are now facing a very

dangerous third wave, it looks like a fourth province is about to declare that it is in the third wave of covid—19 and your death toll is far higher than any other country in africa. why have you failed? one of the things about south africa is that we don't hide our statistics. we say things the way they are. i'm sure if you dug deeper into the statistics of many other countries, you're going to find so many hidden facts. we don't hide facts. when we look at the way the pandemic has affected the whole world, all of us should be talking about how wejoin hands together and fight the pandemic. and in south africa, we have now begun the process to roll out the vaccine. in fact, i'm going to be vaccinated very soon. i have been told that because i am over 60, the time has come for the over—60s people to be vaccinated.

i am genuinely delighted to hear that you're about to get vaccinated, but the trouble is, you will then be part of the roughly 1% of your population that has received a dose of vaccine. your vaccination roll—out has not been as fast as, say, senegal, ghana, kenya, zimbabwe, botswana. you are the richest nation in the continent of africa. i come back to the basic question, why are you failing? well, we're not failing at all. we have very strict health regulatory requirements in south africa. we began with the astrazeneca dose and it didn't work in south africa.

we had to donate that or hand it over or sell it to other african... what do you mean, it didn't work? because a certain variant developed in south africa and the astrazeneca from the serum institute could not work. and then we had to rely on thej&j and also the pfizer vaccine doses. and you know the problems with thej&j, i cannot talk about that because i will get into legal problems, but now we have got the pfizer doses in south africa and it is the pfizer one, for example, that i'm going to be jabbed with. yeah, but i'm looking at a quote here from professor shabir madhi, who was involved in the astrazeneca trials. he says that stopping the roll—out of astrazeneca in your country was a mistake because it does "undoubtedly," he says, "protect against severe disease even if it "doesn't protect against

getting mild symptoms. "and selling our astrazeneca vaccines to other countries "was a miscalculation, one that has set us back months "in our vaccine roll—out." do you regret it now? i think you need to have a conversation with the minister of health. let's talk, then, the economic costs of covid—19. the unemployment rate in your country is shockingly high, particularly for young people. i think, if you include those who have given up looking for work, the unemployment rate is well over a0%. now, what are you actually offering the hardest—hit people in south africa in terms of real support? i think the most important interventions that we know throughout history is to provide an environment which makes economic agents to be active.

so ther�*s government interventions as an economic agent on one side, but also private agents and private enterprise, and the most important part of this story is the working relationship between the public sector and the private sector. in the provision of employment or employment opportunities, contracts which create jobs, and other economic activities, and the so—called animal spirits in the economic debate is very important and i think we should not be in the mood of, "what are you offering people?", but what kind of environment are you providing for both the public sector and the private sector to engage in economic activity? well, you might focus on animal spirits and getting the private sector moving, but the reality is that millions of

south africans, poorest south africans, have seen you offer them a below—inflation rise in their social grants while at the same time you are cutting corporate taxes and talking about fiscal prudence. so, many in your country feel you are favouring business and ignoring the needs of those who are truly suffering from the covid pandemic and the economic crisis. stephen, basic economics 101 will tell you that providing incentives for business, companies to operate, is actually a job creator and not a job destroyer. so if, as a business person, you know that you are going to receive a tax benefit in the future, the tendency is for you to increase your economic activity,

in fact, to employ more people. this is what the cosatu trade union federation said of your budget in february, they said, "mr mboweni has "delivered a budget that is not for the 1a million people "or more of working age who are unemployed." they feel that you are basically looking after the private sector at the expense of the unemployed and the poorest south africans. politically for the anc, that is a very dangerous place to be. that is their view, which i don't agree with, but that is their view. but politically, that is not where you need to be. if your own allies, who have been with you in the struggle for decades, now believe that you're a guy who is looking after the interests of big business and not the poor, politicians likejulius malema and many others are going to make huge political capital.

they could very well do that, but that is their view. that is their view, i disagree with them, but that is they view. it is a risk you are taking, minister. i take risks every day. and if it doesn't work and this unemployment rate of, as i say, the real unemployment rate of 40% plus persists, you and your government surely will lose the confidence of the people of your country. you know, i was in the government of president mandela in 1994 through to 1998, then i went to the central bank to become a central bank governor. and then, after that, i went to the private sector. and the structural unemployment rate in south africa has remained elevated. it's got nothing to do with the federal budgets. anybody who thinks it has to do with federal budgets really

must have their mind examined. the structural nature of unemployment in south africa has to do with the structural changes in the south african economy. and the fact that the primary sector, ie agriculture, mining, have changed, even the manufacturing sector has changed. so agriculture and mining, for example, each one contributes about 5% to the share of gdp. and manufacturing, both light manufacturing and heavy manufacturing, are about 18% of gdp. the rest of it is the treacherous sector, whether it is wholesale, trade, retail trade, banking and finance, insurance, domestic services, government services, health services. that is where the thing is. right... therefore... no, no, no, let me finish.

and therefore, the skill set required for this structurally changed economy is what we need to work on so that we feed into the pipeline the skills which are now required in light manufacturing and also in the treacherous sector of the economy. but you have had years of low growth, you have had years of stagnation, infrastructure problems and, in recent times, recession. claude bissack, who runs the unamics consultancy group injohannesburg, he says that barring a meaningful change in trajectory in south africa, it will become a failed state by 2030. can you fix that? can you fix a trajectory yourself? that is absolute nonsense. south africa will never be a failed state. that is nonsense. that is nonsensical. but can you turn around

what you have acknowledged to be this unemployment crisis? the unemployment... but i have explained to you what the problem is. and i have no other words to explain it to you. the fact of the matter is that this country, south africa, has far stronger institutions that keep the country together, the pillars of the state together whether it is judiciary, whether it is the central bank, whether it is the national treasury, whether it is the defence force, the intelligence services, whether it is the non—governmental organisations, whether it is chambers of commerce and academic institutions. this country is far more stronger than any one of them on their own put together. so there's no in way in which south africa is going to collapse. it's not possible. that's nonsensical. well, minister tito mboweni, i thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you. thank you very much indeed for having me here.

it is my second time here and this time it was more difficult than before. well, we appreciate it. thank you very much. hello. we know may has been wet, and now with less than a week to go, the met office says provisionalfigures indicate that wales, despite all of the sunshine to end monday, has had its wettest may on record — those records going back to 1862. wales will have a drier tuesday, but depending on where you are, there will be further heavy showers to dodge because low pressure, although it's moving into the north sea, is still close enough to produce some of those showers. now, there are weather changes on the horizon and we'll look at those in just a moment. this is how we're starting off tuesday morning.

a lot of cloud across scotland, northern england, through north wales, the midlands and on towards east anglia, where you could be encountering some patchy rain to begin with. elsewhere, a few sunny spells. the cloudy zone will brighten up, but this is where we're going to see some of those heavy and possibly thundery showers, with the risk of hail during the day. quieter weather through much of wales, the midlands, into southeast england, bar the odd shower, and largely dry in northern ireland. but cornwall and devon clouding over with outbreaks of rain moving in. it'll be fairly breezy out there and temperatures for the most part in the range of 12 to 16 celsius. tuesday evening brings some of the heaviest showers in towards the midlands and east anglia before the day is done. the rain clears away the far southwest of england, further outbreaks of rain pushing in towards southeast scotland and northeast england. and wednesday starts where you're clear on a chillier note, some spots down into low single figures. and on wednesday, there will be a few sunny spells around, but much of the east of the uk will be cloudy, and you could well see some outbreaks of rain turning increasingly light

and patchy as the day goes on. but through parts of scotland and again northern england, through the afternoon, there could be heavy and thundery showers getting going. where you get the sunshine, though, it is going to be a little warmer. still quite chilly as thursday begins under largely clear skies. now, there will be a weather system trying to approach from the west. some uncertainty about how far it's going to get in during daylight hours, but it could well bring some cloud and rain into at least parts of northern ireland. but where you stay dry, with sunny spells, it'll be a touch warmer still. that weather front to the west willjust die a death and we're left with building high pressure going into the weekend, and that is going to bring rather more settled weather than we've had of late. not completely dry. there may be a weather system approaching from the west later on bank holiday monday. but for most of us, it is looking this weekend drier and warmer.

this is bbc news with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. i'm victoria fritz. the belarusian journalist arrested after his flight was forced to divert to minsk — appears in a video, apparently under duress. the us president accuses belarus of a shameful assault on press freedom. in gaza — we meet one palestinian community grieving the loss of their children in the recent clashes with israel. george floyd's family will be welcomed to the white house — as the us marks the first anniversary of his murder. many african—americans say police reform has not come fast enough. and interest in digital skills among the elderly doubles — as modern technology reconnects friends and family during the pandemic.

it's been a godsend to be able to